[Closed] Don't have kids (a 10 year STW retrospective)

Those 13 did have kids after-all and are too busy out having fun to bother replying.

I take two things from this:

1 - that at least six people will (apparently) respond by PM to a forum member with zero posting history, to share personal details and their feelings about those, and

2 - Around a third of people who chose not to have children also like Crossfit 😉

Meh, it's the same question asked throughout society, the reality is that some people who don't have children tend to be quite vocal about it, i have those friends, they love going out every weekend, going for weekends away, midweek pub visits, etc, and that's their lifestyle, kids or animals would reduce their ability to do this stuff.

It's a completely personal decision, i wouldn't want to go through life without kids, they're a lot of fun, they are through life companions and they are pretty much mini organ donors if the future ever requires it!

2 – people who chose not to have children also like Crossfit 😉

Thats a bit harsh!

As always, the mash covered this well

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/lifestyle/youll-regret-it-things-parents-say-to-non-parents-that-are-really-about-themselves-20220713223235

As some one who would have replied ‘nope’ ten years ago I can still confidently say ‘nope’ today. No regrets there.

Ten years ago I would have been quite vocal about my choice too. Mainly to counter the tiresome and incessant ‘ooohjustyouwaityoullchangeyourmind‘ or ‘whowillcareforyouwhenyouareold’ brigade. Now I’ve got enough years under my belt that people just say nothing. It’s nice.

Be at peace with whatever decision you make (or what life gives you). Life is too short and inconsequential to get hung up about this.

bit harsh!

Haha yeah, classic stereotype! As above, I suspect that people get challenged about their choice so much, it's tempting to dive in with the pre-defence of justifying yourself, then coming over really passionate about the topic!

13 didn’t reply

I would be one of them. Meant to have a poke round your profile to see who you were, but forgot about it because...

1 – that at least six people will (apparently) respond by PM to a forum member with zero posting history, to share personal details and their feelings about those, and

...that's not really me...

No regrets here. I'm slightly more relaxed around children than I used to be - my nephew (10) and niece (8) can be charming in small bursts, but the consistent noise and mess gets very wearing very quickly.

I'm very much of the opinion that the world does not need more people in it, and I wouldn't inflict this current world on the young and innocent either. I'm not sure that either of us are fit to be parents (and I wish there was a theory test on parenting, not just the practical), plus the worst (and therefore most likely) gene combination of the 2 of us would make Damien Thorn look like the baby Jesus...

13 didn’t reply

They've probably just switched all notifications off - I'm not interested in PMs via STW.

NB No Kids and used to do Crossfit - but my box went bust, so back to cycling now.

I’ve got 2 who are now 39 & 35. I was never bothered about having kids that much but I wouldn’t swap them for the world.
Would I have kids now?
Nope.
IMO anyone who wants kids now is being very selfish, they’re not thinking about the future of the kid(s) in these days of so much uncertainty, just their own need to reproduce.
( My son & his Mrs are I believe, wanting to start a family.) 🥺

I’m very much of the opinion that the world does not need more people in it, and I wouldn’t inflict this current world on the young and innocent either.

Said it better than me.

I take two things from this:

1 – that at least six people will (apparently) respond by PM to a forum member with zero posting history

I was one of those. My initial response was "why not start a thread and ask?" because as you say, a sudden random PM from a seven-year old account with zero forum history regarding a 10-year old thread (and starting with "I don't know if you're still active" addressed to probably the most prolific poster on the forum 😁) didn't particularly inspire me into a lengthy conversation.

But yes, nothing's changed, don't regret it.

I regret not having kids, not for the want of trying though, we found out after lots of trying that my then partner couldn't have kids. Regret it a lot & find it hard when people moan about their offspring.

Yes yes, I've been occasionally lurking since 2015. I'm sure I used to post back in the 2010's under some long forgotten username. Thanks to those who did reply.

Obviously no sensible conclusions to draw from a small and biased sample, but let's try anyway eh.

I just skimmed through that thread. Some things don’t change…

Friends of ours decided not to have kids and both have retired aged 50 in the last year. Fat pensions, a big house on the coast, umpteen holidays, always going to gigs and time to pursue their hobbies ad infinitum. I’m happy for them but wouldn’t swap for the rollercoaster of experiences and emotions that come with being a parent.

Obvs there’s so much more I could add as there are so many variables involved… maybe later.

Regular poster posting under another name.
.
I never wanted any but never quite got the courage up to go for the snip, part of that was people trying to convince me that I would change my mind one day.
I was tricked into having one by a (now ex) partner and it is the worst thing which has ever happened to me.
Nothing against the child himself, now 4, it's not his fault and I don't blame him at all, but being a parent is rubbish. No time, no freedom, total change of life. I have never got on with children and no idea how to interact with them. I spend time with him every week because that's what is expected of me and I find it incredibly dull, it's just another chore which needs to be done. Thankfully I think I've managed to hide this from him and he does seem to enjoy our time.
While I don't wish him ill I do wish i could go back and have the strength of my convictions and had the snip years ago (done now!)
I am stuck with this for life.
It has changed my life irreversibly and for the worst, it clearly hasn't turned out how the ex thought it would and the poor boy is the victim of it all growing up in a broken home. Nothing good has come of it.
.
My advice is if you know that you don't want any then you don't. Vasectomies are quick, easy, surprisingly painless (not sure about the female equivalent) and will remove any chance of falling victim to what happened to me. Do it.

I’m very much of the opinion that the world does not need more people in it, and I wouldn’t inflict this current world on the young and innocent either.

this is very well put. That’s before you get into the more personal reasons and complete lack of desire to have kids. We are very happy with no kids and feel sorry for those who have clearly given up on their own interests because of kids

I suppose for full disclosure,

My partner's daughter is now the mum of an ~11-week old son. So I expect my previously well-documented opinions are going to be challenged over the next mumble years, no doubt to great hand-rubbing from certain quarters of the forum. Mostly thus far I've been hiding. 😁

To the OP, for the avoidance of doubt: I meant no criticism, I was just explaining why the circumstances of your PM raised suspicion.

some people love being a parent, some don’t. it’s not the kind of situation that you can be neutral about.

it’s a lot harder than you could imagine or that parents let on and i don’t think it ever stops being hard. i think more people regret it that would admit.

if you like doing your own thing, relaxing in a quiet and tidy home and everything you do not being more difficult then children may not be for you.

Never had any, never wanted any but (age 58), I'm getting somewhat concerned at the lack of rapid roll-out of robotic bum wipers. I'm fortunate that my partner is a fully trained nurse so I'll be looked after when I start* deteriorating but I'm screwed if she leaves me/dies/needs caring herself....
(And she is really screwed if I need to look after her, as I'll be useless)

*reality: it started a some time ago ☹️

/joke

As a single mid thirty-er with zero desire to have kids for many of the reasons mentioned above, its quite hard to find, and keep, longer term relationships!

But, currently that's a cost I'm willing to bear for my freedom...

Love hanging out with kids, but only for 20 mins at a time.

feel sorry for those who have clearly given up on their own interests because of kids

Why? That’s just as bad as the folk who feel sorry for people that don’t have kids. Both very strange viewpoints IMO.

I never really wanted kids because of my upbringing amongst other things. Changed my mind in my thirties and had a son, he’s ace. Didn’t want more than one though. There is a thread on here that covers it and I now have a daughter too. She is fantastic and a proper character. Some days are great and some are not. Anyone that claims it’s all sunshine and daffodils is a liar.

Have kids, don’t have kids. It’s all good and up to the couple making the decision.

I don’t want either of mine looking after me when I’m old. I want them to enjoy their lives. Hopefully they’ll live miles away on another continent by the time I’m royally ****ed.

13 didn’t reply

I was one of those too! Again, poking around your profile to see if I wanted to reply was on the to do list but never got done.

It appears that childless people are not very trusting!

No, still no regrets. I'm now 50, the ship has sailed and I'm still happy I was not onboard. I'm probably more mellow about a lot of things now then I was then - (I've not looked back at the first thread - I was probably an opinionated arse and it would be too cringe to read) and I'm probably less prickly about it now, mainly because it's stopped being a topic of conversation with busybodies trying to pick apart our decision. For some reason that's an ok thing to do if you decide not to have kids but the reverse not so much.

My thoughts now:-
1- We are remarkably adaptable chameleons. The Convert in another dimension who had kids is probably pretty happy with his lot too. For that reason I'm not sure the question is particularly valid. People are more than likely to say they are happy with what they chose because they are whichever way they jumped; not because they need to confirm it to themselves but because they just are. I think men are particularly good chameleons on this subject - most of us will jump in the direction our partner wishes and are happy with the outcome.

2- In the intervening years I actually became a boarding school housemaster for 5 years. I was a houseparent, saying goodnight to 110 17-18 year old boys and girls every night. Dealing with the police when they messed up, listening to their troubles and concerns, hold their heads as they puked up, sharing the joy with their triumphs. It was awesome and appalling in equal measures. At no point did I ever wish any of them were my kids.

3- I'm getting some of friends back. Well, I didn't lose them completely but they had their priorities shifted. They spent their lives carting kids to swimming galas and going to crappy family friendly holiday places. And they seemed to love it. But as their kids fly the nest they are returning to their old ways. And loving that too. You could be glass half full or empty about that and see it the way that suits your narrative - they either spend 16-18 years not doing as much of the stuff they liked (kids are bad) or when it's all over childless life is still there waiting for you (it's not forever).

Whatever - I hope you make a good decision for you. And when you do, just chill and enjoy being what you have elected to be and don't waste too much energy wondering what might have been.

Edit - for balance why did you not ask a similar number of people who had had children 10 years ago if they regret it today? Again, a little bit of bias there about why it's ok to question one group but not the other? Same old, same old.

being a parent is rubbish. No time, no freedom, total change of life.

From my experience, and also some wise words from a friend years ago, its all about being with the right partner. I don't mean this to be trite nonsense, I don't expect anyone has a perfect relationship, but my other half has always known that I need to do stuff that makes me happy, too. Ride bikes, meet mates, go away for weekends. I doubt I do *that* much less than before kid because I was nonchalant about doing stuff then, now I don't miss an opportunity to (without taking the piss). There's a balance to be found, a change in priorities maybe, but life goes on. Watching them learn to ride bikes, climb rocks, swim in lakes is great.

And apologies at this point to RocketDog, That's a tough take on it, we were nearly in that position ourselves, which leads me on to...

What I do regret is not having kids sooner due to swithering for years over whether I wanted them or not and leaving it too late for a second. Its hard listening to an only child ask why they don't have a sibling, when we both know it would have enriched her life many-fold - and that's on me.

IMO anyone who wants kids now is being very selfish, they’re not thinking about the future of the kid(s) in these days of so much uncertainty, just their own need to reproduce.

So you had kids under the threat of nuclear war, but that was ok?

If no-one has kids, then we will all be really ****ed when we get old. What we need is very slow population decline. So if you want kids have two, if you don't, don't.

Edit – for balance why did you not ask a similar number of people who had had children 10 years ago if they regret it today? Again, a little bit of bias there about why it’s ok to question one group but not the other? Same old, same old.

I did think about this, but it was a concious decision not to bother because
1) obviously they will still have had kids

2) it's rare that people (admit) regretting their kids - few did 10 years ago, and there's no reason I've come across to expect more/fewer do now.

3) the main reason I asked only childless/free answers is that there's a narrative that people who say that they don't want kids will regret it one day, or change their mind. A single answer only captures a snapshot of their feelings, but can't address this narrative. It's rare to see people followed up such a long time later.

IMO anyone who wants kids now is being very selfish, they’re not thinking about the future of the kid(s) in these days of so much uncertainty, just their own need to reproduce.

100% this, why would you want a kid to be born into this world where we cure diseases, look after the disabled and needy, have an abundance of food, housing, the possibility of seeing large parts of the world and learning so much about our world and universe when you could be born at any other point in history and be raped, killed, die of disease or some combination of the above 😂

By the way I don’t have kids, and I realise climate change is real but only by putting new people around and educating them do we solve the issue. Ever seen idiocracy?

3) the main reason I asked only childless/free answers is that there’s a narrative that people who say that they don’t want kids will regret it one day, or change their mind. A single answer only captures a snapshot of their feelings, but can’t address this narrative. It’s rare to see people followed up such a long time later.

fair enough

1) obviously they will still have had kids

2) it’s rare that people (admit) regretting their kids – few did 10 years ago, and there’s no reason I’ve come across to expect more/fewer do now.

hmmm - not so sure about that. Yes, very few will say they are not happy with their decision (as it appears to be the case the other way too) - but it still sounds like it's too sensitive a question to ask. "Mate, you've become an argumentative sod since you became a dad and you seem to be living your life entirely through them - you sure being a dad was really for you?" is a question very rarely asked!

We had 2 of our grandsons stay over on Thursday night. Today is the first time I feel vaguely human after we were all stricken by the norovirus one of them brought as a present. Missed riding at the weekend and a classic day windsurfing at West Kirby today.
Wouldn't miss them for the world.

I’ve got 2 who are now 39 & 35. I was never bothered about having kids that much but I wouldn’t swap them for the world.
Would I have kids now?
Nope.
IMO anyone who wants kids now is being very selfish, they’re not thinking about the future of the kid(s) in these days of so much uncertainty, just their own need to reproduce.

So your kids were born in 1983 and 1987. We're the 80s and 90s any different to the 20s? We have always been one nutter away from world war 3 and end of the world. Sometimes you just need to take a leap of faith like you did twice.

But I do get this, I didn't want kids for a long time, worried about what would happen with the world, worried if they got sick, worried about money, worried about being too selfish and missing out on what I wanted to do.

But I got to the point in my late 30s where I felt like I was in ground hog day, doing the same thing, day in, day out and I was bored and I realised I was ready for children. Well child, I only ever wanted 1.

Mini D is 4 now and he's amazing, he's my little mate. We do everything together and I love him, he's my world. Yes he's hard work, he wakes me up at 6am and I'm always tired and I spend all my money on him.

But I still get to ride my bike and climb, it just takes more effort and planning and it uses the little energy I have left and takes a lot of will power when most of the time I'd love to just go to sleep.

The older he gets the better he gets. Today we were teaching him to swim. Absolutely love spending time with him and wouldn't change it for the world.

If your really not sure then don't do it, it's a huge commitment and it's bloody hard work. When your ready you will know it. Just don't leave it too late and expect everything to happen overnight, sometimes it takes a long time and then it can be too late. Good luck

I replied

At the time I only had the 1 kid

Now we've got 4!

My eldest has almost finished his first solo Airfix model and was waiting up to telle when I just got in!

So yeah it's still great

it’s a lot harder than you could imagine or that parents let on and i don’t think it ever stops being hard.

This

i think more people regret it that would admit.

I don’t. I think it’s the hardest job I’ve ever done, but I love my kids unequively and don’t regret it at all.

if you like doing your own thing, relaxing in a quiet and tidy home and everything you do not being more difficult

This is basically my retirement plan 😃

Have kids, don’t have kids. It’s all good and up to the couple making the decision.

My view too. As ever, we seem to be digging trenches and lobbing grenades at those who disagree.

It's of note that some of child-free posters choose to use dismissive terms about other posters who are parents while effectively saying...each to their own.
I have 3 children, all now adults; 3 grandchildren.
I have no regrets and neither do the parents of my grandchildren.

It’s of note that some of child-free posters choose to use dismissive terms about other posters

Is it? What did I miss?

Didn't we have this thread a couple of months ago?

So you had kids under the threat of nuclear war, but that was ok?

The threat of nuclear conflict was there certainly, but no more, & maybe less than it is now. The ‘hole in the ozone layer’ however was just pie in the sky. Climate change is here to stay, for a long long time.
I don’t want any grandkids to come into this shit.

I don’t want any grandkids to come into this shit.

You say that but yet,

The world has always been burning. I remember a narrative of "oh I couldn't possibly bring a child into the world today" back when I was little and it was as bogus then as it is now as it was before.

My generation was Thatcher's Britain, we had Regan sabre-rattling with the USSR and to paraphrase Billy Connolly, "this man has his finger on the button, he's the same age as my grandad and we can't trust him with the TV remote." Teenagers were genuinely scared of dying as virgins in a nuclear war but couldn't have a shag because AIDS would kill us.

Insert other generations here. We didn't have to worry about, say, Polio. We were being inoculated for TB. The life expectancy wasn't in the 40s. Our parents weren't having eight children in the hope that at least some of them made it to puberty. We had drinking water that reliably wasn't contaminated with typhoid. We had indoor toilets. How much farther back do we need to go to find the good old days?

It's always been worse than it was. It's always been better than it was. Plus ca change.

I honestly couldn't give a shit if people do or don't want kids.

I also couldn't give a shit about their opinions on my choices!

End of the day people need to stop pushing themselves onto others and just get on with their lives. The best thing about people is their differences.

Friends of ours decided not to have kids and both have retired aged 50 in the last year. Fat pensions, a big house on the coast, umpteen holidays, always going to gigs and time to pursue their hobbies ad infinitum. I’m happy for them but wouldn’t swap for the rollercoaster of experiences and emotions that come with being a parent.

So this - have a great holiday then great. Find out that one of your kids is in the highest percentile for running / achieving something great academically / finding activities that they are passionate about / being mature enough to cope with and help with a foster child in our house. That’s something to be very proud of and perhaps I need to tell myself that more often when they do stress me out.

Didn't want kids back then (I remember the original thread) and still don't want them now.

I’m very much of the opinion that the world does not need more people in it, and I wouldn’t inflict this current world on the young and innocent either.

Very much this, partly because the world is seemingly going to hell and getting worse generally but also due to my own childhood being mostly complete and utter crap. My parents were great but the constant bullying that carried on into adult life for a long time from my peers has left indelible scars that will likely never be healed. I don't particularly want to be in this life myself so why would I inflict it in an innocent child with no say in the matter? I've got no issue with other people having kids as that is their decision and they can be fun to be around at times, much to my mum's annoyance I'm pretty good with my niece and nephew so she can't understand why I don't want my own!

I was tricked into having one by a (now ex) partner and it is the worst thing which has ever happened to me.
Nothing against the child himself, now 4, it’s not his fault and I don’t blame him at all, but being a parent is rubbish. No time, no freedom, total change of life. I have never got on with children and no idea how to interact with them. I spend time with him every week because that’s what is expected of me and I find it incredibly dull, it’s just another chore which needs to be done. Thankfully I think I’ve managed to hide this from him and he does seem to enjoy our time.
While I don’t wish him ill I do wish i could go back and have the strength of my convictions and had the snip years ago (done now!)
I am stuck with this for life.
It has changed my life irreversibly and for the worst, it clearly hasn’t turned out how the ex thought it would and the poor boy is the victim of it all growing up in a broken home. Nothing good has come of it.

This is a scenario I very narrowly avoided after a friend of an ex tipped me off of her plan. If she had made it work I'd have been livid and most likely the resulting kid would have sensed it from me. Glad I found out before it happened. I did have the snip a few weeks later, had to fight to have it at 29!

Not wanting kids has caused me to have failed relationships and prevented others even starting but at no point have I ever regretted my decision.

the reality is that some people who don’t have children tend to be quite vocal about it

Yeah. It's totally those who are child-free who are vocal about it. Definitely not the other way around.

So you had kids under the threat of nuclear war, but that was ok?

i’m pretty sure global warming was known about back then, too. that may have even been the time to do something about it. not to worry.

Yeah. It’s totally those who are child-free who are vocal about it. Definitely not the other way around.

This is the "preachy vegan" argument again, isn't it.

I would have said definatley No when younger, ended up having a son and its been the best thing in my life by a massive margin.
As babies the steal your heart with big eyes and bigger smiles, yes they cry and yes you'll wonder what biohazard is being produced in their nappies.

To this day my happiest times were night feed when his mum went to bed i did the last feed and got an hours cuddle with him snuggled on my shoulder, slightly smelling of warm milk and snoring.

I was worried about loosing that sort of attachment as he gets older and grows up. If anything it has got better but for different reasons you see them grow, get indipendent and you see the world in a less middle aged man sort of view.

Me and his mum split some time ago if anything it has made us closer.

Is it easy no, would i have another? No. I'm just comming throuht the total dependance and school stage so getting more free time.

Alot has to do with how you and any future childs mother would be as parents? I've seen friends go through terrible times 'cause the kid was a little s@#%.

As all the best questions the answer is "depends".

The "won't have kids because world is shit and I don't want them to suffer" is a philosophy called anti-natalism. The inherent problem with it is that it makes a good out of preventing suffering to a future life form but then denying that a future lifeform can experience any pleasure at the same time. The other problem being that the logical end point of it is killing yourself and everyone else. I've never heard or read and convincing account of it that gets past those issues, it's a bit of fringe bordering crackpot philosophy.

But by all means use it yo justify your life choices.

Weird that it feels easier to reply on the forum than it does to a pm, sorry OP!

Anyway, I was and remain in the no kids camp.

In the 10 years since the question originally came up is it the political, economic or environmental situation any better, erm nope.

Do I regret not having someone to look after me, I'm not doing a great job for mum who lives on the south coast a good 5 hour drive away at the moment, so no reason think kids of mine would be any different.

Would I be a good parent, nope.

Any regrets, nope none.

Racing DH with your 13 year old, absolutely unbeatable. My lad is the most incredible thing on the planet.

Yeah. It’s totally those who are child-free who are vocal about it. Definitely not the other way around.

If you weren't posting on a thread started by someone who's been thinking about this for a whole decade! to justify his stance on not having kids.... You might have a point

To the point about having no time, yes when they are babies one or both if you is stuck around their routine, but you can make space for yourself. I used to go away and stay at friends for beers a couple of times a year and Mrs K went to a Spa retreat for example, you just have to make it work between you.

Making toast and jam with my 9yo daughter this morning, and time off work to ride bikes with my 13yo for a long weekend on Friday - I’ve just moved him to clipless pedals - with pub burgers on the way home is enjoyment you can’t put a price on.

I feel very sorry for our anonymous friend who posted his negative experience, it would tear my heart to pieces to feel like that about my children, that’s inexplicable to me.

Got a 5 and 7 year old. Love them to bits. They ruin your house. Ruin your car. Ruin your social life. Ruin your health and finances. On a positive note they give me something to live for, they make me laugh, I can live vicariously through them, we play Mario kart and ride bikes. Yesterday the 7 year old and I blasted loop 1-4 of the minortaur up cyb. Sense of pride for me and achievement for him.
But yeah it's not all great at all. On the other hand I don't regret it and can't imagine life without them until I see child free people going off to a gig or the pub!

but being a parent is rubbish. No time, no freedom, total change of life. I have never got on with children and no idea how to interact with them. I spend time with him every week because that’s what is expected of me and I find it incredibly dull

You have full time custody when you say you have no freedom? It's sad to read this, find some common ground. He will begin to feel the resentment at some point. A few years time and you could have a great riding buddy.

No one who hasn't had kids can make an informed decision as to whether they regret it. What's there to really regret? You have no frame of reference save for seeing only the parts you want to see about your friends with kids hectic, sacrificial lives. You don't get to see the daily joy, you don't get the sleepy, unconditional cuddles from a little 5 year old with nothing but love for you in the morning, you don't get the elation of seeing them balance AND pedal for the first time. All you see is the cost - NOT the reward.

All these altruistic comments about too many people and world danger...really? REALLY? Do you make such weak arguments for the rest of your decisions? It may be a factor, but the real reason for many if not most is one of lifestyle/responsibility.

For the OP - I didn't want kids - I really didn't, and was awkward with my first until 2-3 years old, but they've genuinely been a beneficial addition to my life. I'm more relaxed, more personable and I value things more than I did. With my second it's soo much easier. Yes, thing are busy, noisy and messy, but once you get over all that (to an extent) and like all stages of life, you just adapt. You lose some freedoms (bike rides/exercise have to be balanced with not being selfish WRT family time) but gain other things, like seeing their perspective on the world and how it alters yours. Like sharing TV and expereinces and food.

Do I miss the life I walked away from at 30y old? A little. I can't always chose a restaurant based solely on what I want, money has to be more carefully thought out and shared out, but I honestly think I gained more than I lost when everything is calculated. The biggest change is probably that I spend less money on cars than I used to...*shrugs*

A question - How many of those that didn't have kids chose to have a dog instead? Then buy it Christmas presents, ice creams and new clothes/toys?

Daffy plus 1. Very similar to me, very ambivalent when had them. Took me over 6 months to gel with either of them. The rewards IMO do outweigh the costs.

You get one go round with life, I want to experience as much of the good stuff as possible and kids are such a fundamental part of life.

I wonder if people regret not having them most when their peers start becoming grand parents.

I suspect that in most cases it is the woman who wants kids, and the man goes along with it.

That's how it is in the sample of my peer group.

I have kids, two girls - 15 and 17 now - and there's no doubt the journey has been a bumpy one, in many different ways. I wouldn't advise anyone to not have them, as I think that is too simplistic. But for me the key impact is how having kids influences the relationship you have with the mother/wife. Basically, it puts the relationship under massive pressure, and there is a price to pay for that.

In short, I don't regret kids but I regret how I've handled stressful situations along the way.

I suspect that in most cases it is the woman who wants kids, and the man goes along with it.

Bollox! Thats what they'll say to look all manly. "...yeah, she wanted kids, I just wanted to get my end away....." If they didn't want kids they wouldn't just go along with it!

Good point Reggie, I would have happily bumbled along getting high, partying, sleeping through hungover Saturday/Sunday mornings, heading to the Alps twice a year....
I'm very glad that both at 35 my wife put her foot down, I can't imagine life without them.
Funnily enough I always did want kids- grew up in a big happy family - but reckon I'd have easily let it slip by

Ironically one of my closest mates from school who doesn't have kids, is often lecturing about overpopulation etc on Facebook, yet he travels from UK to his second home on Ibiza and holidays in South America etc

No one who hasn’t had kids can make an informed decision as to whether they regret it. What’s there to really regret? You have no frame of reference save for seeing only the parts you want to see about your friends with kids hectic, sacrificial lives. You don’t get to see the daily joy, you don’t get the sleepy, unconditional cuddles from a little 5 year old with nothing but love for you in the morning, you don’t get the elation of seeing them balance AND pedal for the first time. All you see is the cost – NOT the reward.

I get what you are saying, but I don't entirely agree.

Most people without children do have children close in their lives. A niece or nephew maybe, kids of close friends or in my case working with them every day. You talk to people. It's not the same at all, but I'm hopefully sophisticated enough to join enough of the dots to appreciate what we've not got. As I've said already I think I would have made a good fist of it, enjoyed it and hopefully been good at it. It's an 'on balance' thing - I think you'd have to be quite an extreme personality to have only found happiness childfree or with child children.

You could spin it the other way around - can someone with children truly know how they would have felt if they had made the decision not to for keeps? You know what it felt to be child free earlier in your life, but you don't know what it feels like if you extrapolate that to a whole life. You can estimate, but you don't know. It's very much like the way everyone thinks they know about school and what it must be like to be a teacher, because once upon a time they went to school themselves. It's not the same thing.

My lad is the most incredible thing on the planet.

This is the sort of gush that some, less grounded or perceptive, parents like to say. As a teacher I have found these are the most blinkered parents who arguably do a less impressive job at being a parent. What you meant to say (I hope) was "My lad is the most incredible thing on the planet to me". Because he's not actually the most incredible thing on the planet to anyone else apart from your partner. He is an irrelevance to me and millions of other people. He's not the most incredible thing on the planet to even your siblings, or your next door neighbor and maybe even your parents. He's just another kid. It's awesome that you have that bond with him, but keep it in perspective.

A question – How many of those that didn’t have kids chose to have a dog instead? Then buy it Christmas presents, ice creams and new clothes/toys?

I know a childless couple who's dog has its own instagram account.

not sure how they handle the arguments over time online etc...

No one who hasn’t had kids can make an informed decision as to whether they regret it. What’s there to really regret? You have no frame of reference save for seeing only the parts you want to see about your friends with kids hectic, sacrificial lives. You don’t get to see the daily joy, you don’t get the sleepy, unconditional cuddles from a little 5 year old with nothing but love for you in the morning, you don’t get the elation of seeing them balance AND pedal for the first time. All you see is the cost – NOT the reward.

Quite frankly that is patronising nonsense. I don’t have to experience both sides of an experience to decide I’ve no regrets about not undertaking it.

I have no children and no regrets, there’s no great philosophical argument in my head about it , it never happened nor was it something I sought.

All these altruistic comments about too many people and world danger…really? REALLY? Do you make such weak arguments for the rest of your decisions? It may be a factor, but the real reason for many if not most is one of lifestyle/responsibility.

This, definitely this. There are loads of really good arguments for not having kids centred on your own particular circumstances and abilities so it's a bit unceccessary to turn it into some sort of virtue.

For the people who think it's wrong to have kids because the world's terrible and they'll suffer what would you do CPR on someone? Presumably if you succeed you're condemming them to suffer. But then letting someone die in the street offers zero social media points so it's a tough dillema.

Bollox! Thats what they’ll say to look all manly. “…yeah, she wanted kids, I just wanted to get my end away…..” If they didn’t want kids they wouldn’t just go along with it!

I don't think it is; but to really appreciate that you need to come at it from the other perspective.

If your female partner sat you down and said that actually they didn't think motherhood was for them. That they could biologically, but they did not want to have a child. How many men would try their utmost to change their partner's mind? How many would end that relationship and find another partner who did because it was that important to them? What would you have done? I know one guy that did that.

The other problem being that the logical end point of it is killing yourself and everyone else

What boll9cks. Equating not having a kid with killing someone....

No kids here, never wanted any. I do exactly as i please and wouldn't change it for the world. It's cost me a relationship, but you cannot go into kids without being committed to it and i can't help how i feel about the subject.

Bringing kids into this (currently not very pleasant) world to wipe their parents ar5e in the later years is hilarious....and people call me selfish!! 😀

A question – How many of those that didn’t have kids chose to have a dog instead? Then buy it Christmas presents, ice creams and new clothes/toys?

No of course I haven’t, more patronising toss.

All these altruistic comments about too many people and world danger…really? REALLY? Do you make such weak arguments for the rest of your decisions? It may be a factor, but the real reason for many if not most is one of lifestyle/responsibility.

Like all extreme opinions on this and many other topics it's quite flawed isn't it. For us it formed part of the reasoning but not all of it. We both felt/feel that an ever increasing population is not a good thing. We don't want human civilisation to finish within a generation however. We decided, on balance, that we did not want our own children enough to add to that problem and if that was the case we'd leave the 'birthing' to other people who felt that calling. If enough people who felt as we do didn't bow to the societal pressure and preconception that having kids was the next thing on the to do list and stuck with their convictions it would make a (small) dent in the broader global issues we are tackling. I'd argue we are still involved in 'bring up' children through our interaction with friends kids, nieces and nephews and for me professionally; just not in the role of a parent. Any parent who thinks they are the sole contributors to bringing up the next cohort, or even their own children, is deluding themselves.

Quite frankly that is patronising nonsense. I don’t have to experience both sides of an experience to decide I’ve no regrets about not undertaking it.

Patronising - an inference of superiority in a statement or act- And yet, you have a totally myopic view, so is it really patronising? People with kids have experienced both (most, all?) sides of it, especially if they had kids late, so are better placed to give an informed viewpoint. Your viewpoint of kids and regret is the life equivalent of hearsay in a courtroom. Sure, you don't have a regret in your choice, but you also didn't have the full picture when you made that choice or even now. You simply don't know what you don't know and you can read about it and think you might know about it, but feelings and emotions don't transcribe and transfer well and it's this emotional context that your missing.

Would you trust someone's advice on house buying who'd never gone through it? On pet ownership? On looking after elderly relatives? Experience and emotion matters.

No of course I haven’t, more patronising toss.

You're a lovely piece of work this morning, aren't you? This was a question and it wasn't even mine. I was paraphrasing from the Pope.

Link to BBC

Weird that it feels easier to reply on the forum than it does to a pm, sorry OP!

Plus that's what a forum is for. I see this occasionally on STW and on Facebook, someone will ask a mundane question and close with "DM me" - why? Is it a secret? What if other readers have the same question?

No one who hasn’t had kids can make an informed decision as to whether they regret it.

I would like to say I don't entirely agree, but I can't get over the fact I want to say what utter patronising horsecrap.

You have no frame of reference save for seeing only the parts you want to see about your friends with kids hectic, sacrificial lives. You don’t get to see the daily joy, you don’t get the sleepy, unconditional cuddles from a little 5 year old with nothing but love for you in the morning, you don’t get the elation of seeing them balance AND pedal for the first time. All you see is the cost – NOT the reward.

All you have done there is provide the things that are rewarding to you. Not everyone is like that and to make such a sweeping generalisation that we can't make an informed decision is frankly insulting - and yet unsuprising. It's exactly the sort of nonsense that I've had to put up with all my adult life.

How many of those that didn’t have kids chose to have a dog instead?

Oh look, now onto the 'dogs instead of children' thing now. How very typical. I chose to have a dog because I have always liked dogs, not as a child substitute. What point are you trying to make here?

Change the record. You make your choice and I'm happy for you that you made the right one for you. Stop sneering at people who choose a different life than yours.

As someone with both kids and grandkids, I'm glad we had them and pretty sure that I'll continue to be happy.

Change the record. You make your choice and I’m happy for you that you made the right one for you. Stop sneering at people who choose a different life than yours.

I'm not sneering - my first point included some evidence from my own experience and is qualified by the subsequent paragraph about how it didn't com naturally to me.

The second part you picked up on was a question realated to a quote from the Pope about people without kids later seeking company in pets due to a a requirement for reduced responsibilities.

Perhaps if you weren't so defensive, you could come up with a reasoned response. This isn't about you and me, it's about the OP's question and a reasoned response to it.

No children here either, wife and I never wanted any.

We sometimes have our nephews staying over and while they are good fun, it's always good to drop them back off at their parents. Not once have I thought I am missing out on something.

And to be clear, it's bollox saying I can't make an informed decision just because I don't have children.

No one who hasn’t had kids can make an informed decision as to whether they regret it.

I get what you are saying, but I don’t entirely agree.

I'd have used more robust language but yes, I don't "entirely agree" either.

There's plenty of things I haven't experienced. I've never tried heroin, for instance. I expect it must be incredible, folk spend a fortune on it, some people devote their entire lives to it even. I suppose I have very occasional moments where I might wonder what it's like, but do I regret never trying it? Not one jot. Day to day it never enters my head.

Do you regret never owning an elephant? How can you make an informed decision about whether you regret it or not when you can't possibly know what it's like?

I think perhaps that wanting children is genetic, it's a gene most people have but I do not. I see kids of all ages and not once have I looked on longingly and thought "that's for me." I always expected that to change as I got older but it never did. And I think that those who do and those who do not are never going to understand each other.

A question – How many of those that didn’t have kids chose to have a dog instead? Then buy it Christmas presents, ice creams and new clothes/toys?

I have cats. I don't do any of those things because they aren't children, that would be ridiculous behaviour.

The only logical conclusion to the argument about ‘informed decision’ is clearly that you have to have children: this is the only way you can find out if you would have regretted not having them. 🙄

Would you trust someone’s advice on house buying who’d never gone through it? On pet ownership? On looking after elderly relatives? Experience and emotion matters.

I met a bloke who really enjoyed cutting the blood supply off to his knackers - like he really loved it. Strangely enough I’ve not tried this but have absolutely no regrets about that decision.

This was a question and it wasn’t even mine. I was paraphrasing from the Pope.

And it’s still an insulting and patronising remark.

I’ve got 2 who are now 39 & 35. I was never bothered about having kids that much but I wouldn’t swap them for the world.
Would I have kids now?
Nope.
IMO anyone who wants kids now is being very selfish, they’re not thinking about the future of the kid(s) in these days of so much uncertainty, just their own need to reproduce.

The problem with boomers summed up in one post. "Our generation ****ed everything up, had everything we wanted and made no attempt to stop climate change, and still vote in a party determined to maintain the status quo but you younguns are the bad ones if you want kids"

Edit - honestly that post is so offensive that I don't know if it's trolling or not

The only logical conclusion to the argument about ‘informed decision’ is clearly that you have to have children: this is the only way you can find out if you would have regretted not having them.

Another issue is that you (both men and women) are biologically not the same after having children. So you just don't know what the original you would have been thinking. In other words, the two groups are irrevocably from different planets once the birthers have done the birthing.

From https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/what-causes-peoples-perspectives-to-change-once-they-become-parents/ but you can google the same from many places. Highlighted the relevant bit for the largely male readership.

For many parents, when their first child is born, it’s the first time in their lives that their number one priority shifts from themselves to another person. And this little person happens to be extremely cute, but also hopelessly vulnerable and needy. It’s a profound change that requires a monumental shift in perspective.

Bottom line: if you’ve ever seen a parent laughing and cooing with their snotty bundle of joy and wondered how they can see any appeal, remember their outlook has been helped along by some rather useful brain tweaks.

Ironically one of my closest mates from school who doesn’t have kids, is often lecturing about overpopulation etc on Facebook, yet he travels from UK to his second home on Ibiza and holidays in South America

Why is that ironic? Does he secretly father loads of kids while he's about it, thus contributing to the overpopulation problem?

If your female partner sat you down and said that actually they didn’t think motherhood was for them. That they could biologically, but they did not want to have a child. How many men would try their utmost to change their partner’s mind? How many would end that relationship and find another partner who did because it was that important to them? What would you have done? I know one guy that did that.

That was me. The decision of whether to leave or not was pretty agonising. I stayed, we tried for kids, ultimately didn't have any.

For 2 or 3 years it was pretty hard to take and I felt quite bitter about it. These days I think it's for the best. It would have been very hard on our relationship. I am very good at self-doubt and I don't know if I'd have been a good parent. 2 years of Long COVID have been bad enough with MrsDoris looking after me - if we'd had a kid or two it would have killed me. I like my life now (except the Long COVID!) and - 90% of the time - wouldn't change it.

On climate change, it means I don't care, long term. I still have a lower carbon footprint than most of my friends, taking their families on planes each year, filling their houses with plastic tat and getting new lease cars every 3 years - but that's their problem. I'll keep shopping by bike and weaving my yoghurt, and they can all clear up their own mess.

That whole 'this world is too bad' thing is probably something all prospective parents consider. My MiL felt guilty for years about having young kids in the 80s - the threat of nukes, AIDS, climate change even then, Thatcher destroying the country. Took her years to get over. But the idea that 'it was ok to have kids when I had kids, but it's not ok now' as one poster suggested is just self-justifying guff.

On regrets - I think you can be happy whatever your circumstances. There's no need to regret either way. As I said, I like my life now. MrsDoris is my best friend and we do loads of cool stuff together. Whichever you decide, you can make a happy and fulfilling life out of it. Unless your kid turns out to be a little shit. Then you're screwed...

Perhaps if you weren’t so defensive, you could come up with a reasoned response. This isn’t about you and me, it’s about the OP’s question and a reasoned response to it.

Perhaps if I'd not endured years of the same crap from enlightented parents I wouldn't feel the need to be so defensive.

Anyway, back to the point you made and discussing it less defensively. I can not experience something to know I don't want any part of it - that's not about being uninformed that is about being pragmatic.

I could go on, but @Cougar summed up where I was going with this much more eloquently than I can (before coffee) - and he did it using heroin & elephants!