[Closed] Three Speed MTB Hub Gear

What's the gear range like on it? If its wide enough, I'm in!

Had one years ago on a town bike. There's, uphill, level and downhill. Smaller front cog possibly more useful on an mtb, sort of like a singlespeed with 2 x bailouts?

As it happens, I had similar thoughts, too.

For 'recreational' mountain biking, where having the 'perfect gear' at every moment isn't such a big deal, a 3 or (as I was thinking 4) sped hub gear sounds perfect. Ideally, it should be possible without the planetary gears of a Rohloff so should be efficient and clean.

Rachel

Sounds good.

An old thread that sort of discussed 3 speed hubs and mentioned the very poor sealing -
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/3-speed-igh

Double post.

Gear range maybe 100% IIRC?

Swavis runs one I think. I can see the appeal if your riding is a bit much for single speed.

Would be interesting to ride one of these. Gears are over-rated I think. 10 speed this and 11 speed that... 3 gears is all you need for 95% of rides. It's basic, but efficient.

Excellent work.

I have a three speed sturmey on my road, commute, long rides bike. Totally rate it. Only faff is rear wheel removal.

Love the idea of using one off road. I've converted mine to running in oil lubrication, knowing that the seals tend to leak a bit.

With your mods it should be spot on running oil.

I did that with the 5sp SA. but it didn't work that well. I was running rim brakes.
I then tried a shimano nexus 3sp, but it died.

3sp SA seems more reliable, judging from the one on the brompton.
thing is, the weight saving isn't there really. it's about 1kg for the hub, that's about the same as 1x10/1x9.
I settled on a hope SS with 1x7, really liked it.
Always wanted to try a hammerschimdt/stumpf 2x1.
it's a nice idea, I just don't like the shifting lag. nor the few points of engagement.
the fixed gear one with a shimano/wi freewheel would shift faster/pick up quicker.
I'd be curious to try that out, but I don't think they do a disc brake version.
I like the idea, and it looks great.

I want much the same.

The 3 speed ratios are exactly what I want for my general purpose bike (road and offroad use). A light, strong hub.

With the direct set at about 60" it is close to the traditional ratio for road in hilly areas, the low at 45" is more or less what I'd use on a SS mtb, and the high of 81" is roughly what I set my fast SS road bike at.

In other words almost all contingencies are covered for general cycling. At the moment I'm using an Alfine 8 and really don't need all those gears.

I have been trying to get my hands on a RS-RK3 for ages, so if you know of a source, let me know please.

Sounds like the perfect setup.

Good work. It seems intuitively a good idea. What does the hub weigh?

That modification also means we could go back to using oil in the hub. 🙂

That modification also means we could go back to using oil in the hub.

Funnily enough, I was wondering whether it would be practical to fit a grease nipple to the hub shell (as has been done for [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/grease-nipple-mod-for-shimano-cup-and-cone-hubs-never-rebuild-again ]Shimano hubs[/url])

I have a cunning design for a double-speed setup that doesn't use planetary gears and is efficient.. must create kickstarter account .. 🙂

I put my money down for one of these earlier in the year [url= http://www.efneo.com/gearbox/ ]Efneo 3speed crankset[/url].

[img] [/img]

Figured it was worth a risk on [url= https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/3-speed-front-bicycle-gearbox-efneo#/story ]Indiegogo[/url]. 🙂

3 speeds at the crank means the rear hub can be a light singlespeed and the bike's weight will be balanced.

But from my previous experience with Sturmey-Archer 3 speeds, they are my preferred option. I have 80 year old+ Sturmey hubs that still ride perfectly.

theonlywayisup who posts on here tried a 5-speed SA hub (with disc brake) off-road but didn't get on with it and sold the wheel to me for use on my frankenbike commuter. It's fine round town but is a ballache to set up and perpetually seems like it's not perfectly adjusted. Could just be my ham-fisted mechanicking but I wouldn't fancy it off-road. 3-speed hubs may be better.

oh i like the look of that!

looked into 3 speed hubs and found the same issues with sealing
myself before i went 1 X 9 on my singlespeed...

i dont even think id need three gears really.. just my normal singlespeed gear ratio and then an easier climbing gear.. so that double speed idea sounds like a plan molgrips.. 😉

very interested to see how well it holds up..

i dont even think id need three gears really.. just my normal singlespeed gear ratio and then an easier climbing gear

The SRAM Automatic looked promising for this (two-speed planetary hub, shifts when the hub rotational speed passes a certain point) but the sealing is meant to be bobbins, and the shift point is only adjustable by taking the whole thing to bits and tweaking the shift spring - [url= http://mccraw.co.uk/sram-automatix-review/ ]more here.[/url]

I like the idea of a light-ish, wide-ish range sealed three speed hub 😀 I love singlespeed, but sometimes would also love a panic gear or two!

I use a 3 speed Nexus for hilly terrain on cargo bike, will check the ratio later as it slips my mind. Always spins out downhill but I don't mind that, it's like single-speeding, yet not. So far ultra-reliable.

*Thread bookmarked

kayla1 - Member
I like the idea of a light-ish, wide-ish range sealed three speed hub I love singlespeed, but sometimes would also love a panic gear or two!

My thinking is not so much based on having gears to be used all the time, but because I prefer to ride to my trails, I want a gear for the road (direct) and one for the trail (low). The high gear is a bonus - sometimes there are downhill bits on the road. 🙂

I would probably stick the changer on the seatpost because it would only be needed when transitioning from road to trail and vice versa.

I have played around with dinglespeed to do this, but ended up not changing the chain over because of the faff and the grease, especially when it's raining.

[url= http://forums.mtbr.com/internal-gear-hubs/ ]oliverdavey80 should post his hub here too[/url]

Also, if it's not something he is planning to take commercial, it would be great if we could have the dimensions he used for the conversion, or the name of the company that did it.

MrNice - Member
theonlywayisup who posts on here tried a 5-speed SA hub (with disc brake) off-road but didn't get on with it and sold the wheel to me for use on my frankenbike commuter. It's fine round town but is a ballache to set up and perpetually seems like it's not perfectly adjusted.

It's almost certainly a cable problem and not a hub problem (unless you have ridden it extensively maladjusted). Try a new cable.

The only problem with the 5 speed is that it is really heavy - designed for serious abuse on industrial bikes etc.

Whilst I admire your enthusiasm and innovation, and as an ex SS-er I can see the appeal. But you've missed the boat really. 1x systems have pretty much made this sort of gear system redundant for most practical purposes for most mountain bikers. Derailleurs are cheap, light, mostly strong (I've never broken one in 20 years although some others seem to think they're the most fragile things in creation ever) and efficient. After-market cogs and expanders have made custom cassettes possible, so I can tailor them to suit my needs.

You may not 'need' 10 or 11 speeds but if it's no heavier than your 3 speed. with none of the possible drawbacks, why would I artificially limit myself?

Same as planetary hubs, internal hubs, belt drive...interesting but pointless all of them. They have limited appeal, as they are not better, just different, almost always no cheaper, or actually more expensive that what they're trying to replace.

Good work oliverdavey80. I'd definitely have one of those, in fact I reckon with a pair of suspension forks and one of those hubs I could use my current rigid SS as my only MTB.

most likely because I’m the only person on the planet odd enough to want one!

....whether anyone else might be interested in one?

edit - is the middle gear closest to the normal SS ratio? It's been a long time since I had a Sturmey Archer bike. I'd have an extra hill gear and decent ratio for road sections.

nickc - Member
...Derailleurs are cheap, light, mostly strong (I've never broken one in 20 years although some others seem to think they're the most fragile things in creation ever)...

When you can show me a derailleur setup that is 80 years old and working perfectly*, I'll believe you.

Derailleur gears are consumables, hubgears generally aren't. 🙂

*And likely clocked over 100,000 miles.

With the ever increasing cost of normal gears I can see this sort of thing becoming more popular

tthew - Member
edit - is the middle gear closest to the normal SS ratio? It's been a long time since I had a Sturmey Archer bike. I'd have an extra hill gear and decent ratio for road sections.

Depends how you set it up, IIRC the middle 1:1 gear is direct drive and thus the strongest and incurs the least wear.

[i]Derailleur gears are consumables, hubgears generally aren't[/i]

I once did a spreadsheet showing payback on just the initial capital spend on a Rohloff. and I think even replacing the whole "normal" drivetrain 3 times, it still took 10 years for the Rohloff to pay for itself, and that was allowing for a front mech and chainrings, which are no longer an issue making the payback even longer.

Not a massive inducement to change is it?

A great idea but the point where the little chain connects to the hub might be problematic as a contaminant ingress point as well a point of extreme stress changing down to a lower gear under load while honking up a hill.

I set mt Puffin up with a 3 speed hub. It's a weighty beast but other than having to check the bolts are tight it's never been a problem.

nickc - Member

Derailleur gears are consumables, hubgears generally aren't

I once did a spreadsheet showing payback on just the initial capital spend on a Rohloff. and I think even replacing the whole "normal" drivetrain 3 times, it still took 10 years for the Rohloff to pay for itself, and that was allowing for a front mech and chainrings, which are no longer an issue making the payback even longer.

Not a massive inducement to change is it?

You're coming at it from the wrong angle - folk interested in THIS hub (Rohloff is totally different in terms of cost, weight and gearing) aren't comparing it to a 1 x 10 or 11 etc. They are happy to accept a few gears for less maintenance, costs and hassle.

So give it up!

EDIT

OP do you know that those bearings will cope with the side loads OK? Have you sealed ones in the NDS also?

I don't think the shifting chain is an issue - you won't be able to shift while climbing IME.

I have never seen a 5s SA that's shifted reliably.

I wonder how well the Brompton BWR hub might work wiht way wider ratios? 28H only 🙁

I like the OP's idea and the fact that he's gone to the trouble of trying to make a SA 3 speed hub more weather tight and MTB appropriate.

I have been taken with the idea of an SA 3 speed bike in the past, I've got a couple of old hubs (Non-disc) I bought from fleabay with the intention of building something up to try ages ago but never got round to it.

I think if I was going to build a hub geared MTB up now though it would probably be used as an excuse to try out a Nuvinci N360, which apparently has a range not too far from a "normal" 1x10 drive but of course without any indexing or mechs... Not a cheap experiment, or one that I have any burning desire to undertake right this minute though...

From Sheldon Brown -

Old English The common Sturmey-Archer three-speed hubs provide a direct drive middle gear, a high gear that is 4/3 of the middle gear, and a low gear that is 3/4 of the middle gear.

[i]They are happy to accept a few gears for less maintenance, costs and hassle.

So give it up![/i]

But the idea that they are less maintenance, cost less and are less hassle isn't really true.

So, no I won't as this is, y'know, up for discussion. Sorry, if that bothers you.

It's not better, it's not worse, it's just different

I would love a two speed fit and forget hub for off road. I have not used gears for over 10 years and while I could compromise on the road with a happy medium it is not so easy on MTB as I ride 60/40 off road/road on the loops I do.
The off road is covered with one gear and I am happy with that but the road sections are a slow drag and need something 10-15 GI higher.

Problem is that one of the draws of SS is simplicity so adding another cable, lever etc,. goes against my ethos!

I ride my SS to the trails too, so something like this would be brilliant.

nickc - Member
But the idea that they are less maintenance, cost less and are less hassle isn't really true.

Hos so then? You've quoted figures relating to Rohloff, SA is entirely different, 1/10 the cost!

My point is here's a thread with folk who are interested in SA, you're alone here telling them gears are better...but no one's really interested in that opinion.

.[i]but no one's really interested in that opinion.[/i]

I am.

The point of threads like this is to expand the knowledge base, not to rely on assumptions. You find an alternative that is all those things (cheaper, better, less maintenance and hassle) than a derailleur and folk will be interested, but unless ideas are challenged, and stand up to those challenges, we're no further forward.

So, without some-one saying BUT... on threads like these, then it becomes an exercise in self-delusion.

nickc - Member
But the idea that they are less maintenance, cost less and are less hassle isn't really true.

So, no I won't as this is, y'know, up for discussion. Sorry, if that bothers you.

OK, [url= http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sturmey-archer-s-rk3-3spd-disc-hub-silver-36-hole-prod37078/ ]a Sturmey-Archer S-RK3 3 speed hub costs £86[/url]. For £4 more you can get it with a drum brake.

From proven experience it will last over 80 years with simple care and still work perfectly.

Convince me otherwise - with comparable evidence...

I used to go through more derailleurs than brake pads. I refuse to run derailleurs on any of my bikes now and everything is singlespeed or alfine, the exception being the full sussers. My next full susser will be a Zeroed or a millyard assuming that he ever decides to make them commercial.

Either that or I'll make my own version of the old Brooklyn Machine Works and run it singlespeed.

[i]From proven experience it will last over 80 years with simple care and still work perfectly.[/i]

Meanwhile back in the real world....

[i]However, the three speed hubs that are currently available tend not to be particularly well sealed from the elements or up to the loadings of off-road use – a ride around W2 at Afan on a stock three speed hub had the cones undoing themselves and dirt sauntering in to the bearings.[/i]

Said the OP.

I've run (almost) that same hub for summer mtb and it was great. For some reason mine has regular cassette splines (very short for single cog not a full length freehub body) rather than the sturmey 3 lug mounting (sprocket still held on with a circlip) but otherwise the same. I also ran the regular reliable tube nut rather than the sticky out pulley system. I had though of machining out for seals but never considered the cartridge bearing option - great work.

Have you sent some photos to Sturmey Europe? Around 5 years ago I swapped some good emails with Alan at Sunrace on this very subject (think he was ex-Sturmey England and based in Holland).

I was generally happy but needed bigger range for Alps etc (I mod my singlespeed for summer hols). Nicer pedal feel than Alfine. Internals were good for tandems BITD so OK for mtb torque. Axle breakages were one of my worries (bearings are a long way inboard).

I've just read a book on Mikael Pedersen - Pedersen multi speed hubs might also be worth a reappraisal.

I think the OP needs a pat on the back for not stopping convention from him getting what he wants.

I myself ride a lot of singlespeed and have always wanted three gears; up, along and down (and road). I've considered the options, but advice (probably from this site) has always put me off for reasons of reliability.

Yes, you can achieve it with a reduced cassette and derailleur, but they are ugly and fragile, yes even modern ones!

Keep us all in the loop as your testing progresses and I'll have one off you if they look god. I also know a small bicycle friendly Engineering company that would love to help with any kind of larger scale production. Send me a message if you want to talk it through.

You find an alternative that is all those things (cheaper, better, less maintenance and hassle) than a derailleur and folk will be interested, but unless ideas are challenged, and stand up to those challenges, we're no further forward.

You [b]do[/b] know this is STW? There aren't sufficient niche points in running a mech...

Hi everyone and thank you for your feedback – it’s nice to know that I’m not alone!

I wanted to try the hub for similar reasons to those stated by other – I live a little way from the trails which requires some road sections to access. A single speed would be pretty slow so it’s nice to have an overdrive option. Plus I’m weird enough to quite like a good, steep, technical climb and so didn’t want to miss out on a lower gear as well, plus it just makes longer rides more manageable. It seems to be all that I need.

For info I’m running it with a 32 tooth chainring and the 18 tooth rear sprocket that it comes with. This is below Sturmey Archer’s recommendation of a 2:1 minimum gearing, but it seems to be holding up and Sheldon Brown’s website provides a couple of other examples where this has been tried successfully. Time will tell.

Sturmey Archer list the hub as having an overall gear range of 177%, with the gear steps as both 33%. I just like to think of it as a direct drive (1:1) with an overdrive at 4:3 and an underdrive at 3:4. It seems to be enough to get me everywhere that I need and although the jumps between gears are big compared with a derailleur set-up, I don’t find them so big as to be awkward to change between.

As for efficiency, I find it feels much more positive at the pedal than either my 8 or 11 speed Alfines. There has been a study into the inefficiencies of hub gears relative to derailleurs and the three speeds do pretty well. A lot of hub gears with more than three gears achieve this by essentially combining the guts of multiple three speed hubs together (in VERY simple terms). So a five speed hub is, mechanically, essentially two 3 speeds bolted together. This is one of the reasons for the inefficiencies and spongy feeling you can sometimes get. As for the weight, mine came in at just under 1.1kg without a sprocket, which compares pretty favourably with my Alfines.

Although Sturmey Archer list a 32h version of the hub on their website, I’ve only been able to find 36h examples. Although this hasn’t proved to be the big deal that I thought it might be – I’ve seen a variety of rims from Stans, Mavic, H Plus Son and Velocity all with a 36h option.

nickc - Member
So, without some-one saying BUT... on threads like these, then it becomes an exercise in self-delusion.

You are indeed saying "but" but have pretty much nothing to say that backs that up ref the OP's hub...and telling epi he's wrong with no input to that yourself.

You just don't like hub gears, and you want to ay what little you have to say about it 😐

S-RK3 on my commuter/cx bike for over two years now, no problems whatsoever, no loose cones no other bs and it was only serviced twice so far...

Day One:
[img] [/img]

I tried to kill it but it's still going strong
[img] [/img]

It's not too complicated either:
[img] [/img]

The other option if you love your SS but would like a bail-out gear might be [url= http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/s2k-black ]S2K[/url], but my only worry is that you may change the gear whilst the cranks are leveled...
[img] ?1430238596[/img]

nickc - Member
Meanwhile back in the real world....

"However, the three speed hubs that are currently available tend not to be particularly well sealed from the elements or up to the loadings of off-road use – a ride around W2 at Afan on a stock three speed hub had the cones undoing themselves and dirt sauntering in to the bearings."

Said the OP.

In the real world, tens of millions of Sturmey-Archer hubs have been run in similar conditions without that problem. The roads in the 3 speed hub's heyday were largely rough and unsurfaced. The way dirt was handled then was to flush it out with oil. The bearings cost pennies to fix if there's a problem - a handful of new balls and all is well.

The current S-A hub is superior to the old hubs and they were nearly unbreakable, and if they broke, cheaply fixed.

It's still many times more reliable and durable than any derailleur you can mention, and perfect for the purpose that the people on this thread want it for.

Just for interest, I have no hesitation taking my 80+ year old S-A hub out on dirt. It's been on most of the tracks around here, including the'Puffer track. I haven't had any problems, and don't expect any.

[url= https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3718/12913485944_1a8181011c_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3718/12913485944_1a8181011c_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

[url= https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7313/10743795513_7cefd6bb6a_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7313/10743795513_7cefd6bb6a_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Now can we get back to giving the OP credit for his ingenious modification?

Do not feed the troll, keep this on topic for all of use who love hub gears and modifications

Problem is that one of the draws of SS is simplicity so adding another cable, lever etc,. goes against my ethos!

I run a 15 and 17T on my singlespeed. Manual change by moving the wheel, but if it's to ride on road or off road, not a problem A Brompton derailleur would be an ideal modification for this, but I haven't gone down that route.

Hello OP... how did the hub hold up over the winter? Inquiring minds would like to know. Thanks

Update: http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/three-speed-mtb-hub-gear-update