[Closed] Which Bike..? Malt GRX2 or Camino AL GRX

I'd be amazed if you can get a Camino in 2 weeks time. I spoke to them on the phone 3 weeks ago and it would have been May before I could have had 1. Are you sure that it doesn't just mean that pre order is opening in 2 weeks?

Edit: just re read your post. Give them a ring....they were expecting a fairly long delay on grx stuff when I spoke to them.

I think Alpkit means that in May they will be sure enough of delivery to take your cash. The bike will then arrive at a date after this that they will specify in May

Merlin - I have the GP2 not GRX2, but it is same frame and forks.

I really like it - comfy, lightish wheels are tight which make it feel nippy, with relaxed(ish) head angle making it very stable. Full carbon fork is comfy. Both ends bolt through is ace. Tiagra 2x10 is nice. Looks nice. Overall weight is good for a cheaper bike

Negatives? They have totally mucked up the forks and it is unacceptable really. They have mount for mudguard on each leg - but the crown mount has been omitted. I also found out this week that the two lower mounts are also in back to front - you can get the bolt in, but it isn't best secured...I have bodged on a mudguard with adhesive velcro and zipties.
Gearing is not low enough either.

Overall I am meh about fork but love the ride of the bike.

Sadly I was facing a 5+ month wait from local supplier for the Genesis CDA I was considering, plus at Claris + cheap instead of full Tiagra for the same cost.

Worth checking Halfords to see if there is Boardman ADV 8.9 or ADV 9.0 stock near you. If 38mm tyres at max don't concern you (I don't know the max clearance it has), the Boardman CXR 8.9 might be another option with stock.

I'd say Merlin.

I have no experience of 650 wheels myself, but I feel that to get the best of them you need to run bigger tyres, e.g. 47s or bigger? That would put me off as the 40mm tyres I run seem perfect, wouldn't want something wider or weightier, and I do like to ride some relatively bumpy/rooty/rocky stuff.

Personally also not a fan of mega-flared bars, even the slight flare on my Control-techs (12 degree maybe, they flare vertically but also front to back a little) feels unnecessary and just a bit weird.

Both personal experiences though. Perhaps the Camino would be better for slower, chunkier or more heavily laden riding?

Have you looked on CRC? They seemed to have a stock dump of gravel bikes last week so had plenty in stock. I went for a Ragley Trig, can't wait to try it. My mate really likes his Vitus Substance VRS-1 so that's recommended.

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/road/cyclo-cross-bikes?mx01=a&mx02=a

Others on my list and seemingly in stock were Dolan, some Cannondale, Pinnacle Arkose and a few others. Depends what size you want really.

Thanks for the quick replies.

Given what you guys have said about 2 weeks not actually meaning 2 weeks that might seal the deal on the Merlin then. Not great they messed the fork mounts up but think it's unlikely I'll ride with guards anyway and I totally agree on the Caminos flares - just seems like it would feel weird to me, but haven't actually tried them so who knows. Kind of seems like if you're going to go more off-road than on, go with the Camino, more balanced/more road than off, go with the Merlin. Both options seem like a lot of bike for the money and I don't think I've seen anything better at £1,300.

Can't say the Boardman options particularly excite me, especially as you're generally getting non gravel specific groupsets but thanks for flagging those - was worth considering.

Have contacted Alpkit re: "What does 2 weeks actually mean" and will let everyone know once they respond.

Any other opinions/suggestions in the mean time are welcome! Thanks

Both options seem like a lot of bike for the money and I don’t think I’ve seen anything better at £1,300.

I think this is true.

Have you looked on CRC? They seemed to have a stock dump of gravel bikes last week so had plenty in stock. I went for a Ragley Trig, can’t wait to try it. My mate really likes his Vitus Substance VRS-1 so that’s recommended.

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/road/cyclo-cross-bikes?mx01=a&mx02=a

Others on my list and seemingly in stock were Dolan, some Cannondale, Pinnacle Arkose and a few others. Depends what size you want really.

Thanks for this - missed it before. Had a quick look but a lot of them must have sold out since last week. Also doesn't seem to be anything that drastically beats the Malt or Camino available immediately without shelling out another £300-500. Just feels like the gain gets more and more marginal with every extra £££.

Agree the Vitus looks decent though and might have made a move for it if it was in stock and used GRX. Shimanos marketing seems to have worked on me because anything with SRAM gets a point knocked off ;).

Think it's a two horse race - also figured out they're effectively the same price as I'm trying to buy it through C2W and Merlin charge a 10% admin fee on any C2W bikes...

Will likely just to come down to which one I can get first I think now tbh!

I got my order for the Camino in early December last year and it arrived the last week in February, I think I was very lucky.

The ribble was my next choice along with the Ti Planet X Tempest rival 1.

I can only reflect on my Camino AL, it’s simply amazing.

Like when I got my Orange 5, I fell lucky and got myself overbiked.

Likewise with the Camino it can and would do much more than I ask of it.

Off road it’s fast and stable, on the road it’s efficient.

I hope you manage to get what’s right for you.

I spoke to Tom @ sonder, earlier Today and the GRX stock is now due in Earlier than they had expected so preorder opens in 2 weeks time on the Ti version, presumably same for Alu

I’d choose the merlin out of those 2, i prefer shimano generally, and i have a bike with 1x grx, it’s fabulous.
If both options had grx it would be a more difficult choice though.

If both options had grx it would be a more difficult choice though.

Both do! https://alpkit.com/products/sonder-camino-al-v3-grx1

On the basis that I have the Merlin G1X I’d say go for the Merlin. I replaced the wheels for some hand built hobbies from Ryanbuildswheels for about £350 and now it’s superb. It replaced a Scott CR1 SL road bike which was superb...but the Merlin has made road riding fun again with the option to take the path less travelled in relative comfort. Great bike. Oh, and as for mudcmguatds. I’ve got some crud guard which attach via Velcro so negate any mounting issues.

Thanks for this – missed it before. Had a quick look but a lot of them must have sold out since last week. Also doesn’t seem to be anything that drastically beats the Malt or Camino available immediately without shelling out another £300-500. Just feels like the gain gets more and more marginal with every extra £££.

Agree the Vitus looks decent though and might have made a move for it if it was in stock and used GRX. Shimanos marketing seems to have worked on me because anything with SRAM gets a point knocked off ;).

Think it’s a two horse race – also figured out they’re effectively the same price as I’m trying to buy it through C2W and Merlin charge a 10% admin fee on any C2W bikes…

Will likely just to come down to which one I can get first I think now tbh!

Yeah, they've been raided but that's no surprise I guess?

Agree on the Shimano side too and it's what I went for although I would have gone Sram if it was the only option. I liked the look of the Merlin and Sonder but stock was the issue and with our C2W only being open for a month at a time, 3 times a year I couldn't risk waiting, especially as some shops will not take a deposit and hold the bike until the voucher comes through atm. Luckily my first choice was available by the time I could order (plenty of other potential options had sold out in the week before) so all ended well for me but my advise would be to not hang about and grab whichever you can. I had planned on a £1500 budget but went a bit further for the one I really wanted.

Out of the two you are considering I'd have gone Sonder although the 1991 Marin Pine Mountain vibe of the Merlin is cool.

Why is it that you think the Sonder is 650b? It's 700c, in case that sways you?

"700 x 50mm or 650b x 2.1 tyre clearance"

I'd be going for the Camino personally; in fact, that's what I was going for before I decided to get an O-O Whippet..

I've got a Camino Ti, lovely lovely bike. Its not the quickest on road, but it is very capable off road.
SRAM Force is really nice and smooth, the wheels are FSA 700c abd a bit heavy, so they are on the upgrade list.
I added some Ritchey WCS carbon gravel bars which are a great size and shape. I suffer from a bad back, so a more upright position helps me.
this is my 3rd gravel bike. previously I had an Orange RX9 and a Cannondale Slate with the lefty Fork. I loved the Orange and it was a bike I wished I hadn't sold, but I hated the Cannondale. It just never felt right and had a really harsh ride, even with the lefty fork.
In contrast the Camino is great, 2 hrs plus rides with a mixture of on/off road are just great.

especially as some shops will not take a deposit and hold the bike until the voucher comes through atm

Yeah I was concerned about that - Merlin have confirmed they'll hold the bike if you pay the admin fee though so that helps. Won't be able to include that cost in the voucher but not a huge deal at the end of the day. No idea about Alpkit...

Why is it that you think the Sonder is 650b? It’s 700c, in case that sways you?

“700 x 50mm or 650b x 2.1 tyre clearance”

Ah, you're right - I think I must have skimmed over and just read 650b. Quite a bit extra tire clearance too...

Don't think it makes a massive difference though as I don't expect to be doing really big off-road stuff (might if it was available, but it just doesn't exist around where I live so would only ever be on a trip somewhere). I think you can also get 650b's on the Merlin too (albeit less tire clearance) so largely a moot point for me I reckon.

this is my 3rd gravel bike. previously I had an Orange RX9 and a Cannondale Slate with the lefty Fork. I loved the Orange and it was a bike I wished I hadn’t sold, but I hated the Cannondale. It just never felt right and had a really harsh ride, even with the lefty fork.
In contrast the Camino is great, 2 hrs plus rides with a mixture of on/off road are just great.

Nice - I really like the Ti version but can't justify the extra spenny. Feel exactly how you did about your Cannondale with my Allez - reckon I got a size too big (I'm about 177cm and have a 56cm) and bottled it by getting grey (boring) rather than lime green (fun). Have just never got on with it and reckon I've cycled a lot less than I would have done over the last few years if I'd enjoyed the bike more. Will hopefully get a bit of cash back on it though.

I count 4 votes for the Merlin and 4 for the Sonder. Glad everyone is as split over it as I am and it's not just me, haha! Reckon it'll be the Merlin in the end TBH - still haven't heard from Alpkit but I suspect they'll say you can order in 2 weeks, but we won't be delivering it until May/June + I just don't feel like I'd get on with the Sonder bars and prefer the way the Merlin looks. Just need it to come back in to stock! 🙁

They've recommended a 53cm for my height (177cm) which seems about right as effective top tube is 54cm. Wondering if anyone has experience of sizing? I know they updated it quite a bit for 2021. Pretty crap geometry chart on their website...

Camino comes with choice of wheel size doesn’t it, unless they’re out of 700?

I bought a Camino which turned up around a month ago, and having not ridden the Merlin am not able to directly compare the two...but from staring at geometry charts I think the Sonder is a fair bit longer in reach which I think helps off road, with a shorter stem it’s surprisingly capable. I haven’t found it slower than the road bike it replaced on the roads either. Mine came with 1 x GRX which is really good, especially the brakes.

Both look decent to be fair so I’m sure you’ll be happy with either.

PS you can change the bars on the Camino too, they have the flared or non flared, I believe you can specify what you want

Alpkit finally replied:

"I'm afraid there is a touch of uncertainty with regards to lead times due to the industry wide delays of bike parts and what that has meant for our build queue, I'm afraid I could not offer a solid date at this time. The build queue is currently 8 weeks for new bikes in our system, sorry I can't be of more help right away though!"

So looking like it'll be close to June before you take actual delivery of the bike if you order when they become available in 2 weeks. Have asked Merlin the same question in case anyone else is interested and will let you know.

@mangus Pre-order has opened on some of the Sonder Caminos, not sure if they have all the colours and sizes but I've just ordered a mint Frame and Fork. Delivery expected in May

Thanks mate! Just noticed that too - Only L & XL available though unfortunately so still on the wait for an option...

I had the same debate. I got a Camino (700c).

I went for Sram Rival on the Camino as I fancied a change, and I like it. I could’ve had GRX.
Sonder are ace to deal with and the bike is superb both on and off road. The Bomber bars are a revelation, so comfy for me.
I got it set up Tubeless from the factory.

What put me off the Merlin was the geo was a bit weird, I’d have wanted to swap bits (tyres, cranks) that Sonder did for me but that’s it. I’d probably have been happy if I got the Merlin too.

Thanks mate! Just noticed that too – Only L & XL available though unfortunately so still on the wait for an option…

No worries, I'd emailed them yesterday as was after a frame to replace my London Road, they said they didn't know exactly when the preorder would open and advised I regularly check the website. Checked today to see they had gone live already, luckily I wanted a large in Mint so all good. This just gives me 2 months to track down the extra bits I'll need to swap everything over (thru axle hub adaptors, slimmer seat post etc.)

Well thats a bit of a sod. Missed out by a day on a large camino frame a few weeks back, signed up for the email when orders open again, read this, head off to order and the friggin things are sold out again, and they've not even sent out the email. Was mint the only colour available? I saw a few days ago there were 4 or so colours listed..

I think it was just Mint they had. Didn't know they were doing email stock notifications, it didn't appear to be an option when I was looking the other day

RE the Merlin sizing - I am 6'/181cm and the 56cm/Large fits well.

I'm probably the upper limit on size, an extra cm and I would have gone for an XL.

Merlin Malt G2X GRX....son has this in a 53cm (he's 5'10). Its a sorted bike, ideal for mixing road and tracks. Changed the tyres as where wired, not even folding let alone tubeless, though the rims are. Whilst I'm a Sram man myself, I have to say that the 1x GRX stuff is pretty good. We haven't tried guards on it so am going to have a look at his fork! Otherwise its a solid choice.

Officially obsessed. Think I’ve watched and read just about every video and review of both bikes now!

Have actually flipped over and reckon I’ll get the Sonder if it comes back in to stock soon. Both seem like the best options under £1,500, with the Merlin slightly closer to the road-end of the spectrum and the Sonder slightly closer to the gravelly/MTB end.

Somehow the Sonder just looks like it’ll be more fun in the long run. Might even just go for the crazy flares too - a lot of people seem to love em.

Fingers crossed the mediums are back in stock shortly. Only seemed to be L and XL the other day, which actually seems a bit weird - I’d assumed it was availability of components rather than the frames.

Thanks for all the advice - it’s helped

Yeah, was a bit surprised myself and the guy from Alpkit said they had been having fork supply problems but they would be standard across all the sizes

Both seem like the best options under £1,500,

Any reason you've decided against a Planet X / On One as for £1600 you can get a carbon frame c/w Rival 1 or for £1800 the Force 1 version?

here's mine & UKGRAVELCO's take on it if you are coming from a mainly MTB backround:

1st I totally agree that you should go for a frameset that is designed for the job, not a rehashed road bike.

2nd go for the bike that has the best tyre clearance because you will want to experiment & will want to use it all year round because you love riding dirt & don't put bikes away for winter. The added bonus of course is there is always room for guards if you need them.

3rd GRX every time until Sram design a groupset specifically for gravel (see rehashed road comment) GRX has little design touches that show someone has thought about it, such as the lever shape that fits two fingers securely when riding technical stuff on the drops off road. Do not get a bike with a 2x road groupset the chainring ratios do not work well off road.

4th get a frame that has lots of mounts, you'll get the bug and be out on all day rides miles from a shop so being able to carry enough to be self sufficient is key. You'll probably want to bike pack too & the rack/multi bottle mounts add versatility.

5th totally try flared bars before dismissing them. (The alpkit Bombers are an acquired taste I'll admit) but something like the Ritchey Venturemax put your hands and shoulders in a really comfy position and give extra control on off road sections. Road bars are more about efficiency & aero.

6th internal cable routing looks trick & (probably) would give a slight aero advantage if you were riding the Dirty Kanza but messing around in your local woods scaring yourself riding trails you normally ride on your MTB it's not a factor. Being able to maintain the bike without the headache of threading cables through a frame wins everyone in my book.

Out of your two choices I'd go with the Camino. Try the bars first you might like them more than I did but that's the only change I'd make. There are lots of better framesets out there but for the money it's hard to see past the Al Camino if it was my money

Any reason you’ve decided against a Planet X / On One as for £1600 you can get a carbon frame c/w Rival 1 or for £1800 the Force 1 version?

Thought about it, but it's SRAM rather than GRX, frame looks quite road inspired, and the paint options just look ugly to me (which is purely vanity, I know). £300 - £500 for a carbon frame at the expense of the groupset I want isn't ideal. Also might sound mad, but if I was going to shell out another £500 I think I'd spend even more and get the Camino Ti!

"here’s mine & UKGRAVELCO’s take on it if you are coming from a mainly MTB backround..."

Agree - suspect I'll end up more off-road than on in the end. I didn't really do any roadie stuff when I was growing up, kind of just happened out of the situation (Living in London doesn't lend itself to MTBing!)

Both seem like the best options under £1,500,

Any reason you’ve decided against a Planet X / On One as for £1600 you can get a carbon frame c/w Rival 1 or for £1800 the Force 1 version?

Last time I looked, £1600 or £1800 was higher in cost than £1500...

I bought my Camino al on the bike 2 work, no extra fee or deposit ordered it and they waited for the voucher. I’ve recently done the same with the ti frame and swapped over the parts. Great bike. I didn’t like the bombers (too flared for me) and they swapped them for the spitfires (just right) for me, I sent the bombers back aNd they replaced them by return.

I was lucky got the last xl ti a couple of weeks ago and I love it. All SRAM apex 1 at the moment, but expect that to change.

Only positives to say about dealing with alpkit

And I have 700c wheels with 42mm wtb riddlers if you’re interested.

After all that, Alpkit website now saying GRX models orderbook opens in August again :/

Hopefully not actually true...so weird that it opened for like a day only offering only L/XL frames? Fingers crossed it's sooner. Would prefer not to spend £1,300 on a bike that isn't my 1st choice. ARGH

From the limited time I've spent on my Trig so far your Shimano bias is sound as the GRX just feels much nicer than the Rival on my old bike. More solid, more accurate, better made.

I’m selling a medium Genesis Fugio 30 that’s only done about thirty miles in the dry last Autumn.

Gave Sonder a call and they said the "order in a couple of weeks" thing for a full bike was a web listing error and they've known for a while that the next available date they'd be able to offer any GRX component bikes is August.

So turns out it wasn't ever actually an option :(. Back to the drawing board. Wonder if buying a frameset and doing it myself would be any better - I assume getting your hands on GRX components is even harder if you're not a retailer.

Covid sucks so many balls!

Merlin have some bits in stock. You may need to go to Bike Discount De or overseas for the brakes
https://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-grx-810-gravel-groupset-1x11-speed-178173.html
In stock https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shimano-grx-st-rx810-la-rx810-br-rx810-1x11-speed-disc-brake-set-870697
If you are a medium (not mine BTW) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sonder-Camino-Al-Gravel-Bike-Frame-size-Medium/303911951710?hash=item46c2905d5e:g:M-8AAOSw9DNgRS5z

Said before and possibly on this thread, base your wanted list on what's available and grab what you can, when you can. Can't imagine the situation will be much different for the rest of the year going by how quickly CRC got rid of a decent amount of new gravel stock a few weeks back. If you wait even a week to see if one brand comes back in stock you'll miss the chance on two more.

yeah I've given up on the camino for the time being, speccing anything with shimano at present is a ballache.

the GRX on merlin hasnt been in stock for a while. and i think merlin is the only shop with stock of SLX/XT 12 speed chains. CRC wiggle havent had chains for weeks

I had a stock notification set up for the Vitus before I got a Camino frame. Seems they have some back in including a medium

https://www.wiggle.co.uk/vitus-substance-vrs-2-adventure-road-bike-grx-600-202

Cheers. Had a hunt and unsurprisingly haven’t been able to find some bits with stock/an expected stock date anywhere (the 812 RD seems to be particularly tricky). That coupled with the extra cost, and I’m probably just chasing my tail again.

Think the solution might be just be a cheapo eBay job to ride over spring/summer then sell again in Autumn and buy the actual one I want then. Doesn’t seem like the shortage is going to get any better any time soon. Such a pain in the arse

Yeah, there was a thread in the last week or so asking for 812 RD alternatives because there was zero stock about.

My pal has a Vitus Substance and it's a nice bike. Worth considering at the price.

Lots of discussion about the Camino in this thread... I'm just trying to puzzle out why the GRX and Rival versions are priced the same when, by all accounts, GRX is the better groupset? Any ideas?

@numbo - I've seen new bikes where the GRX groupset is cheaper than SRAM Apex or Rival.

Also are you comparing like for like? GRX can be mixed up a fair bit but Apex1 tends to be a full groupset

Also remember GRX is not just GRX - there is GRX400 which is 10 speed, GRX 600 and GRX 800 which are 11 speed.

To be fair it's a very reasonable question.

SRAM's offering is a few years old now, and it does feel like the GRX set up on the Camino (a mix of 400 on the calipers and 600 elsewhere) should be more expensive/Rival should be cheaper.

Also does seem to be quite a personal thing though - some people don't seem to get on with SRAM at all and vice-versa with Shimano. Coming from a Shimano background personally, I'm keen to go with GRX but getting any bike specced with GRX isn't easy at the moment, unless you're willing to compromise elsewhere.

In case anyone is interested, I'm actually seriously considering taking the Camino frame geometry, trying to alter it a little so that it's sized in between a medium and a large then asking Waltly to build a Ti version of the frame for me + forks. There's a few vids kicking around on Youtube about them and it seems pretty solid. Reckon I could get it all done for under £2,000...and it's building my own = more fun, right? 😉

No chance of getting a GRX specced Camino before Sept unless one happens to come up second hand, and I've dumped Merlins' offering as I think it might just be a bit too roadie...

Waltly make Sonder's Ti, so you can always get your custom geo through them and keep the warranty, UK support etc.

I did think that might be the case looking at them to be honest! Good to know.

Haven't got to the point where I'm asking for a quote from Waltly yet but it sounds like it's c. £700 for the frame, so potentially looking at an additional £500 for basically the same product...

FYI as I know the Caminos are pretty popular on here: Sonder apparently just went live with new stock (including GRX 1x) about an hour ago. Don't think it's a weblisting error this time as they announced it on twitter/FB and with new colours too.

I was after the minty green one but that seems to have gone now, and there doesn't seem to be a picture of the new "sage" but that's what I've taken a punt on...Hopefully I'll get more of an idea in time to change my order if it turns out to be horrible!

Hope this helps someone else who has been furiously refreshing their website every other day!

Hey folks, I have a Camino with latest fork, I come from an mtb background and still e-bike for daft off piste mountain stuff (sinner eh!) just wanted to share my experience of the Camino with a focus on the more off road end of gravel…

My rationale to get a gravel bike was driven by my love of high end hard tails etc. (various Pipedream home builds, Kona Hei Hei CR, Marin, multiple On-one’s (amazed how capable Scandal 29er is 👌)) that I’m blown away by my Camino. With flat swept back (16 degree) bars it fears nothing and has a level of fun and old school agility only my 1990s Univega gets near. And, being 47 it’s light enough that I can keep up with my 35 year old buddies. My setup is AXS on an XX1 12 speed 52/10 rear Cassette, Carbon XX1 cranks, Hunt Gravel wheels on Vitoria rubber, SRAM Level T brakes…so yes almost a 90’s MTB but soooo much faster on the tarmac, Camino great but any half decent gravel bike (my Decathlon Triban 120 at c.£400 was mega) should make anyone smile again and being back the simple fun off road riding brings. Equally many people rave over the Malt so hope you are enjoying which ever way you went.