Not sure if I've seen anything on here about this.
What3words is a phone or Edge app that identifies any location in the world by 3 words. This is being used more and more by the emergency services and I can attest to its usefulness having been ambulanced (is that a new verb?) off somewhere reasonably remote recently after a 'coming together'. I was not making any sense but one of my friends called 999 and identified the What3words location with the call handler. 15 minutes later, the ambulance was on scene. I'm not suggesting this is a panacea but it just might make a difference...
This has been around for a few years now (started as a website). They started marketing it for other purposes but for emergency services it's really useful.
It comes in for a bit of stick from some quarters:
https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2019/03/why-bother-with-what-three-words/
W3W is a closed product. It is a for-profit company masquerading as an open standard. And that annoys me.
Great advertising by the BBC. Have they just published the entire press release?
Why not use OS grid references? A much better solution for emergencies etc.
Well fair enough, use it or don't - it's your choice.
As an individual end user, the price model or 'secrecy' around the algorithm etc makes zero difference. All I can say is, in a real situation it aided identifying my location. Yes there are alternatives which we may well have access to and understand how to use, for the general population, the simpler the better...
Cos W3W would work anywhere in the world, but OS grid ref only on mainland UK?
Been around a while, and an interesting concept. Google made up it's own similar reference system to identify locations using a random grouping of letters and numbers. No idea to what level of accuracy a reference would cover. Spose I could check, but I don't have an app to do them.
Not everyone has a map to hand, even then you need to be able to read it and work out your location. W3W is<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> useful in those circumstance.</span>
When they stated off in the so-called location intelligence market they didn't get a good response so diversifying to consumers is one way to increase their profile. I wonder who is bank rolling them?
You can use a free app on your phone to give you a grid ref. eg the OS Locate app. Or loads the other apps. That's the good thing about an open standard, you are not reliant on a particular app/website. Which may stop working or become more expensive in the future.
Or the same with Plus codes etc, which is Google's system. Already built into the Google Maps app, or OsmAnd, or Alpinequest etc.
Like anyone else who ride an MTB, I have been getting the W3W viral marketing posts all over FaceBook.
It sound like a good idea ... but is it that widely used...
TBH, I thought if you had a mobile phone , they will know where you are ...
But the constant promotion this am is getting my back up ...
Cos W3W would work anywhere in the world, but OS grid ref only on mainland UK?
Although W3W has a different set of words for each language, and you can't translate without using their database. So if you tell the W3W English version to the French emergency services it will be pretty useless.
There are better solutions for finding people who don't know their location:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/using_sarloc_for_rescue_on_your_smartphone-10917
In the UK we've SARLoc and OSLocate but any phone app obviously depends on being able to get a phone signal as does W3W and that location may not be where the casualty is situated nor the most suitable access point. I've had occasion to use SARLoc but haven't used OSLocate.
My GPS (Garmin Oregon) can display a ten figure OS grid reference as one of its fields. Outside the UK I could set the field up to display Lat-Long figures.
As above, it's a closed product from which the company wishes to make money.
Google's plus codes (Open Location Code) are better in almost every respect - hierarchical, open, shorter, more accurate, easier to communicate, case insensitive and more widely available.
What3words's business model is to get emergency services to pay for something they could get free elsewhere.
Unfortunately what3words have an active marketing department that spread the misinformation above.
any phone app obviously depends on being able to get a phone signal as does W3W
What3Words works offline so yes, you need a phone signal (or someone to carry a message) to report your location but not to actually use the app to find where you are.
Looks like my local HARTS team use it so I've downloaded it.
It works without phone signal off the phones GPS which is a moot point as you'll need signal to phone 999...
I don't really care about their business model or the inner workings of their marketing Dept or app. If it improves response times - all good.
Who would have thought this subject would be so contentious....
It works without phone signal off the phones GPS which is a moot point as you’ll need signal to phone 999…
I can make a phone call with no data connection. Equally if I'm witha group someone can walk/ride to a place where a signal is availabel and report the location.
Don;t like a busniess model then don't use it but it's beign used for real casualties...
To be fair any subject becomes contentious on here. If it helps emergency services get to where they need to be then it’s all good.
@wwaswas Real casualties? Yep that was sorta my point: me in the last couple of weeks. If only I'd considered their business ethics before calling the ambulance...
Who would have thought this subject would be so contentious….
Are you new here?
How much are the emergency services paying to use it? What if what3words start charging 10 times as much next year, when they are more reliant on it?
I don’t really care about their business model or the inner workings of their marketing Dept or app.
Which is what they are relying on. Why should our cash strapped emergency services use money for a service for which there are free and better alternatives?
As above I've used SARLoc: Mountain rescue send a text, you open that text and your location is automatically texted back to them. If you've moved to get a signal then obviously you have to provide further information but you'll be providing casualty info anyway.
As someone who has taken emergency phone calls all I can say is you try getting a grid ref, or even a street name from someone who has taken a massive overdose and can barely talk
As someone who has taken emergency phone calls all I can say is you try getting a grid ref, or even a street name
If you have problems getting the street name then wont you have equally hard time getting three random words out of them. Assuming they have the app.
I sort of see the idea behind it but seems pretty limited. SARLoc seems a better approach.
So to be clear W3W works without data connection. It also makes it particularly easy to send the three words by text as well as other means (text being more likely to work in poor signal areas). IMHO three words are likely to be more robust than an inexperienced person in a stressful situation reading out a long string of numbers, then someone else typing them in. You might be able to get a 10digit grid ref out your gps but does the recipient know what to do with it. The google solution has a lot going for it (but still involves inexperienced people reading weird jumbles of characters) but I’m not convinced that business ethics is a strong argument to use them instead.
Looks like my local HARTS team use it
This is the point really, if the emergency services are using it, then it makes it a no-brainer really. It's fine to complain about debatable business practices sat behind a computer screen but are you really going to have a conversation with the operator about it when they ask if you can give them a what3words location...
Operator: Do you have what3words installed, I can find you v quickly and get help to come to you.
Broken person on a hill: well, no I don't as I think their ethics are a bit shady, so I've downloaded this random piece of free tech ware I found from a climbing website forum, hang on...
Operator: right...
I work for a Sound Insulation company and our 3 words ref incudes the word 'Sound'. My home address 3 words ref includes the word 'Sparks'. (Given my user name it's near enough). Makes you think...
A couple of technical problems with W3W:
" What3words reserves the right to change their list of words and will not be responsible for the consequences" (Their T&Cs)
There's no logic to the assignment of the words so "one two three" is nowhere near "one two four"
Also what if you don't have a smart phone? How do you download the app? That applies to SARLoc and OSLocate as well BTW.
This is from W3W's "branding firm":
Edelman helped what3words frame their story to be compelling by tapping into human emotion.
We also created a story for CEO Chris Sheldrick about how having an address can drive social transformation and business efficiency, securing profiling and speaker opportunities.
Through paid social campaigns we re-targeted these stories, getting through to the decision makers that mattered most.
We articulated their purpose narrative and refined their strategy to engage investors and excite the media.
Taken from the link @NewRetroTom posted - https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2019/03/why-bother-with-what-three-words/
/a>
Also what if you don’t have a smart phone?
I am not sure that really counts as a technical issue. No one is suggesting that any of these apps become the one and only source of info. They just make things, in theory easier. Although in this case I am not overly convinced.
Also what if you don’t have a smart phone?
"Who would have thought this subject would be so contentious…."
People got really upset about Martin Shkreli charging inflated rates for drugs, this is no different.
Any money that the NHS wastes on this - and all the money they spend on this is wasted because there are free alternatives - is money that doesn't go on making patients better.
If you don't have a smartphone, you can still get a grid ref from your paper map. You can't use a paper map for What3words.
Which is why the emergency services need to be trained to know about grid references, and what to do with them.
Hmm According to their website the earth is covered in 57 trillion 3m x 3m squares yet uses a word database of 25000 words. How does that compute?
@nickc - not every does have a smartphone though they are becoming ubiquitous mainly because no-one seems to make anything else, but you can't (yet) rely on it.
Again from the Terence Eden blog link:
Here's the thing... If the person's phone has a data connection - the web page can just send the geolocation directly back to the emergency services! No need to get a human to read it out, then another human to listen and type it in to a different system.
There is literally no need for W3W in this scenario. If you have a data connection, you can send your precise location without an intermediary.
So while W3W (I keep hitting shift on the '3' which appropriately gives W£W!) seems like a solution to locating someone it's actually adding an unnecessary layer of complexity for which W3W charge.
SARLoc is free and does pretty much exactly what is quoted above:
uses functions of the web browser available on many mobiles. Once the missing person makes the distress call to 999 and the Mountain Rescue Team has been engaged by the Police, the Rescue Team Search Manager sends a SARLOC text to the phone of the missing person. The caller then just clicks on the link in the text, the webpage asks the phone for it’s location, which is displayed on the Rescue Team’s map. At the same time the caller sees a page reassuring them that the team know where they are, and help is on it’s way. Don’t worry, the caller doesn’t need to do anything more technical than simply clicking on a link in a standard text message! It’s an interesting and very useful bit of kit, but has limitations in that the lost person needs to have a phone which has an internet connection and location services enabled hence it can’t be used for all missing person searches.
It's not limited to the UK either.
Hmm According to their website the earth is covered in 57 trillion 3m x 3m squares yet uses a word database of 25000 words. How does that compute?
May have misunderstood the question, but 25000^3 equals 390625000000000000 unique word combinations
@whitestone, yeah I know not everyone has a smart phone, but this IS specifically a smart phone solution, so what's you point?
Me: I've thought of a great idea for a business; make shoes...
whitestone: Not everyone has feet you know...
People got really upset about Martin Shkreli charging inflated rates for drugs, this is no different.
Sorry but that is nonsense. Shkreli obtained marketing rights to a medicine already in common use, filed for its use in a specific indication, then upped the price as it was an indication, not the previous off-label use. Reimbursement rules in the US allowed this once an approved medicine for an indication is available - their hands were basically tied by their own rules.
W3W have used innovation to develop a product that they wish to market. That is perfectly acceptable behaviour from any company. Like so many things, software included, you get what you pay for. It is up to the market to decide whether the innovation is worth the investment. It is also up to the market to determine whether a competitor might want to produce a competitor product.
From what I see, it looks pretty reasonable. I've given a few emergency calls, I typically know where I am, but Houns is right. Everyone is calm and collected behins their keyboard. Out in the field it's a different story.
EDIT: Actualy it's 3 Choose 25000 = 25000!/3!24997! which is 25000x24999x2499824997/6 = 65,088,542,812,475,000 - plenty to go around (about 1,000 per square)!
@nickc - just come across another couple of problems. I've just been up the lane to put the rubbish out and it's blowing a hoolie - what's the guarantee that the operator correctly hears the three words at the other end? Plus you've got accents to deal with. With SARLOC I'd just click on a link in a text and it works.
Since W3W can change the mapping (sic) between the three words and the referenced location that means everyone must use the same dictionary otherwise you'll be sending the emergency services goodness knows where.
I'm not against anyone coming up with a business plan and making money from it, but in this instance it's more complicated and less resilient than the free alternatives.
in this instance it’s more complicated and less resilient than the free alternatives
Yeah but it really isn't is it? The dictionary is online so everyone will always be using the same one as they're all on line. Shouting out 3 random words is not really any more complex or error prone than shouting out random numbers is it? Really? <sigh>
There's no need for anyone to agonise over this. Don't use it if you don't want to. AFAIK they haven't made it mandatory so use whatever you need or have to hand. I used to carry a SPOT when waddling about solo and now carry an EPIRB as I don't want to rely on phones but this struck me as something simple for simple folks and having very recent first hand experience of it, thought some of the simple folk on here might find it useful.
@boblo - but they've said in their T&Cs that they can change the dictionary, in fact I'd expect them to so that it doesn't get pirated. From reading around, the app and dictionary are 50Mb so if you've an old one you'd have to download it before being able to give your position. And before you start with: "well do that at home", there's no guarantee that the update is available when you are home or in signal, there's a window of uncertainty.
It's not about me or you using it, it's about emergency services using public money on it when there are better alternatives that are simpler to use. As I noted before I've used SARLOC as a 999 caller (I was calling on behalf of a Saudi couple): get text from MRT, click on link in text, job done, they knew where I was. There was no "could you repeat that please?" etc. it was as error free as could be.
The BBC article you linked to is all but an advert for W3W, all the photos are supplied by them, there's no discussion of anything else that MRT or emergency services use.
Yes it's a solution but it's by no means the best one available, they just have a very active PR and legal department.
It's a solution. It's not going to be universal without an open platform which isn't going to happen if they want to make money given it's a product with no other value than a co-ordinate system. If it restricts integration into other apps and web sites then less people are going to use it.
Though OS stuff is licensed also to integrate with, but they do have open platforms to access basic data for free. Plus printed maps to get grid reference off (but you're shelving out money for those too). Is of course, UK only.
I was a bit surprised at the advertorial on the BBC. Thought they were supposed to be above filthy commerce...
I wouldn't worry too much about wasting emergency services cash, that seems to be a repeating theme for them. Just watch an episode of Ambulance or suchlike. All that waste taking fat people or drunks or smokers or druggies etc. W3W is a relative bargain (unless used to find the aforementioned). Tsssk.
All that waste taking fat people or drunks or smokers or druggies etc. W3W is a relative bargain (unless used to find the aforementioned). Tsssk.
Now, now, we can't be having ne'erdowell corpses in the countryside now can we? 😉
I looked up the journalist whose name is at the top of the BBC piece - his Twitter profile states "My views are my own (or copied from someone else), not those of the Beeb etc."
I'm probably being really stupid (I've not come across W3W before) but does the app use the smartphone's GPS receiver to work out which of its squares you're in and is the reverse true (ie. is the 3 word address turned back into coordinates to enable you to be found from the 3 word address)?
I'm struggling to see why there should be a problem finding someone who's in possession of a smartphone that knows exactly where you are. I do get that there may be an issue for an injured party to work out how to get GPS coordinates from their phone but, but there must be a variety of ways simple apps could do this.
Surely it can't be beyond the wit of man to develop a system whereby the phone itself could embed the coordinates in, or via, the phone connection; as it stands, and on occasion, I've entered quite detailed information into automated call centre type systems using a phone's keypad via a landline (so no data connection) usually terminated by a #. I can't see why this couldn't be handled automatically upon calling emergency services.
As above, I may be being really stupid.
@PJay - basically yes to your first paragraph.
As for your second and third paragraphs that's exactly what SARLOC does. Emergency services/MRT send you a text with a link in it, you tap that link and it opens up a map in your phone's browser and uses the GPS receiver in the phone to pinpoint you on the map then automatically responds with the location in a text. At the other end that text is then displayed on a map on the operator's computer. So long as you can tap your phone's screen, which is probably a given since you've rung 999, then it works with no further intervention.
@Whitestone, thanks for that.
Going back to the call centre calls I alluded to, you might, for example, call a company and then be asked by an automated system to enter an account number via the keypad (no data connection involved); when the call is then passed to a human call handler your account details are on screen. I was wondering whether a completely automated approach might be feasible.
Since smartphones are localised based on your GPS position, it should be simple for a phone to 'know' when you're calling the emergency services and append the GPS coordinates +# to the call as if they'd been entered via the keypad. At the emergency services end the call will initially be picked up by a computerised system that could check whether the coordinates were there and place the location on screen for the call handler, if they're not the calls not from a smartphone.
It would take some coordination between global emergency services & phone/OS manufacturers but that's go to be better than handing over emergency service functionality to a third party commercial organisation.
Not sure it is going to improve people’s perception of it but Mercedes own a proportion of What Three Words. It links into their Mercedes pro and Mercedes Me systems. Sat nav can be done by saying the 3 words. We got shown how to do it but tbh, I gave up as 99% of people think you are talking out of your backside when you try to explain the system.
Just about all modern smartphones should support Advanced Mobile Location. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location
Google's version is Android Emergency Location Service. https://crisisresponse.google/emergencylocationservice/
When you phone the emergency number, it automatically sends your location to them, using a data SMS. Seems it is now supported by the UK networks, but not sure if the emergency services can actually use it.
emergency info on trailforks app give the latitude, longitude and the number of the emergency services. It also works offline
W3W is brilliant. I can't be arsed describing right now but as a map and navigation geek it readily fills a hole for the smartphone era for universal, offline, precision location pin pointing for people who neither know nor care about grid references or lat/long. Map geeks (me) feel free to continue to use paper and magnetism.
When I first saw this I thought it was interesting but ultimately not too useful and, to be honest, I still think that but the emergency services using it does bump it up a bit.
OS Locate does exactly the same thing and is more open. I guess maybe three words is more accessible than a grid reference but if one works then so should the other.
I keep both apps on my phone and have done for a while.
SARLoc is quite clearly the best when the situation suits it.
Just about all modern smartphones should support Advanced Mobile Location
Was going to say, I'm sure there's a standard or standards in phones already that includes GPS or WiFi position when calling Emergency Services.
W3W looking up position to translate into three words you say over the phone that gets translated back into a position, and costs money to emergency service to use and the words can get misheard.
or
Position automatically sent via SMS with the phone call, no licence cost I assume.
Still, it's got everyone's attention and top trend on twitter now. Good advertising for them.
SARLoc is quite clearly the best when the situation suits it.
Requires the caller to do something and needs data. ALS just gets position and sends a text message with the position when you call 999, as I understand it.
I think the interesting part is emergency services not knowing what to do with location information regardless of format. I had to call mountain rescue and gave them a 10 digit os grid. We had to move to a more sheltered location about 50m away, so I updated them with that.
Where did mountain rescue initially search? A location about 1km away. They were still fast and excellent but clearly someone in the chain didn't think the exact location would be useful to the rescuers on the ground.
It’s not just for emergencies - just one obvious use case. Regarding emergencies AML sounds great but I’d never heard of it until now.
SARLoc requires a data connection - ie. a decent signal (probably 3g/4g) to work AND the user to have credit on their account that permits data. (W3W can apparently do something similar for people who haven’t downloaded the app). It will also require the user to have data turned on for the particular app (browser) it launches. It is definitely not infallible. My kids have W3W on their phone as all they need is to have enough signal to send me a text - and they have hundreds more texts than they ever need. I’ve sent my wife my location in a busy venue! Google maps allows us to share locations but actually a w3w text just works - you don’t need to reteach the other end what to do.
I’m not sure why an emergency service NEEDS to pay - the service is free - if they are choosing to pay presumably it’s because they are gaining something from the integration with their systems. They do make a commitment that if they can no longer provide the service they will release the source code.
Delivering stuff in a 7.5t truck to a postcode that bears no relationship to the dropoff point. I can work with grid references, but your average truck driver or receptionist can't. If you have this, pinpoint the exact spot, share it, open it in Google Maps, etc.
Pffftt...
Just get a Huawei mobile, send a text to anyone, anywhere with the words "Tiananmen Square" and you'll have a Chinese Black Ops team airlifting you off any mountain in the world in about 10 minutes.
Sure, you'll be bound, gagged and unconscious...
But it works and is free.👍
Regarding emergencies AML sounds great but I’d never heard of it until now.
Surprising it's not that well advertised, especially as it's a British innovation and supported by networks in UK.
On Android, to check if it's enabled (should be by default I think) ...
"Turn emergency location service on or off
ELS is turned on by default. You can turn it off or back on at any time.
Open your phone's Settings app.
Tap Security & location.
If you don't see "Security & location," follow the steps for older Android versions.
If you have a work profile, tap Advanced.
Tap Location and then Advanced and then Google Emergency Location Service.
Turn Emergency Location Service on or off."
^^ Just checked that on my Pixel 3, it is indeed turned on by default. Handy to know that. Not heard of it before this thread.
Being a bit "crashy" on the bike, it could be handy.
So, can someone tell me exactly how SARLOC works?
How do emergency services send a link, if they don’t know you’re lost?
I downloaded the App and it does not make much sense. I’ve also looked to see if I can work it out, but haven’t yet.
@lardman - You ring 999 and ask for help, they now have your phone number so can send a text message to it. That text message contains a link, clicking on that returns a text with your location details.
As above, AML shortcuts the whole process so that when you ring 999 (or whatever your local emergency number is) then your location details are sent automatically.
I envisage a subculture springing up, where people try and collect W3W squares with obscene three-word combos. P!s$.flaps.w@n£. Hmm, can you search for squares with a given combination of words?
LOL Veloviewer tile collection just got more interesting!
You could have some real fun with this: "Hey Donald, see you at https://w3w.co/tiny.hands.trump
later"
Just stumbled upon the old thread. Vaguely remember it at the time but I guess it went no-where back then. Looks like they have a new marketing team
Also what if you don’t have a smart phone?
You're either too close to death to bother rescuing, or too much of a stubborn Luddite to accept a ride in one of those newfangled helicopters anyway </humour>
They seem to be brilliant at marketing. Any android phone capable of running the app will report your location if you dial 999 without you doing anything. So on Android the life saving bit is pure marketing bullshit. Or am I missing something. I think it's just a way to get you to download the App then start using it to meet your mates on a field
IPhones need ios 11 to report your location when dialing 999. Does that mean older IPhones might benefit?
No idea how to get longdidute layidute or any of that nonsense out of Google maps despite checking. W3w makes it super easy.
W3W fail:
I'm no fan of w3w, so this made me giggle
Now sure how this is a W3W fail. It's evident the callers would have little means of knowing or communicating their position by any traditional method of navigation. The first W3W worked (Lingcove Beck is plausible) but they told the police they'd continue on to Langdale and it was only the second one that whilst mis-communicated, was easily error corrected.
I'm in a mountain rescue team and we were called out three times over the weekend. Two out of those three the caller gave us a location by W3W. The third was to assist ambulance so location wasn't an issue. W3W isn't going to go away and its fine. Our system automatically converts the W3W location into an OS grid ref for us. It is easy for the W3W location to be misheard by the call handler but, as demonstrated in that article, if it is wrong it is likely to be very very wrong so quite obvious.
By default we always send a PhoneFind text, just in case the W3W is wrong or the causality has moved. The good news is that if they have been using W3W then their GPS is turned on on their phone which makes a PhoneFind text much more likely to be successful.
The obvious issue with that article is the contradicting statements from the walkers:
Police contacted Wasdale Mountain Rescue Team at 9.20pm to say the walkers had lost their mobile phone signals, leaving them unable to navigate.
An initial What3words location supplied by the group placed them at Green Hole near the upper reaches of Lingcove Beck. The walkers said they were experienced and uninjured but were wet and cold and did not have enough food and water.
Not that experienced then!
Yeah I read straight through the 'experienced' bit because it's evident they didn't have a paper map or the knowledge to use it. And that's before any further consideration for food, clothing, weather forecasting and escape routes.
KoftheP asked a raft of MRTs for their thoughts
Really don't see the point. If you have the means for W3W to work you have a grid reference. Why use the obscurity of this extra layer?
The folk who are likely to use W3W will have limited experience with OS grid references and the means to understand them, add in a stressful situation such as needing a rescue for an injured member suffering exposure and i can see the appeal of such an easy to use app. Obviously it would be better if those out in the hills have the necessary understanding of how to read a map and take a grid reference, or even have the knowledge to use a map on a phone to get a grid reference but when the adrenaline/cortisone rush takes over in an emergency even those who consider themselves experienced can get caught out.
Really don’t see the point. If you have the means for W3W to work you have a grid reference. Why use the obscurity of this extra layer?
Pretty sure that was all talked about a year ago on page 1 when they went on the marketing offensive.
Everyone should have something like this on their phone:
Really don’t see the point.
Because the arguments on here are about using it as an emergency locations service, when that's only really one way of using it. It's simple to use for everyone, so If my daughter and I are i the city centre or whatever, we can send each other a location that's pretty much inch perfect just by text so we can meet up.
But use it or don't use it, it's not the end of the world.
This:
W3W is a closed product. It is a for-profit company masquerading as an open standard. And that annoys me.
It’s a solution in search of a problem. It doesn’t even solve the problem we’ll.
In terms of being useful your phone can equally report your position using a string of numbers based on a pre-existing international standard.
