[Closed] The Watch.... WHY?

Tell me that’s not ****ing real. Please.

Yeah, this is a thing. Aside from fury predictably erupting both within fandom and across the bottom half of the Internet, Rhianna Pratchett is livid about what they've done with it.

The casting is just plain weird. Cybil for instance, wife of Vimes and matriarchal battleaxe whom I always pictured as Hattie Jaques' Matron, is a pretty young black woman.

Cybil for instance, wife of Vimes and matriarchal battleaxe whom I always pictured as Hattie Jaques’ Matron

Penelope Keith would have been ace.

Now, however, Miranda Hart.

That's about as far from my mental image of Vines as you could get. In fact that's pretty much my image of CMOT Dibbler.

If it was some random fantasy show it'd probably be OK, as it's supposed to Pratchett it's going to totally mess up my mental images of all the characters. Shame. 🙁

It isn't just his looks (in fact remove the eyeliner and I would give him a chance), its the way he acts and speaks "wired" like a ****ing cokehead, I just don't see how anybody reading the books could interpret the character that way.

I really hope that falls flat on its arse. It looks properly awful

It’s like they’ve taken each character and cast the exact opposite.

That said, it will create a buzz and generate publicity. If it’s any good the mass audience won’t care. I mean how many people actually read JRR Martin before GOT hit the screen.

Yeah, that's not promising. I mean, obviously they're not making Guards Guards: the series of the book, it's an "inspired by" so differences are OK. But it just seems so far from the source that it might as well just not be connected

Vimes is mid late 40s slightly noble looking in the face with a wire like frame and hard as the cobbles he feels under his worn out boots.
I'm sure his wife is a good few years older in the books.
God knows who would be cast as granny weatherwax

God knows who would be cast as granny weatherwax

In this, probably Lady Gaga.

Vimes is mid late 40s slightly noble looking in the face with a wire like frame and hard as the cobbles he feels under his worn out boots.

I know it's not book-accurate, but I always imagined him as Steiner from FF9.

Rhianna Pratchett is livid about what they’ve done with it.

It does look cack tbh, difficult to believe that anyone involved has ever read a Pratchett book! Probably best ignore it & hope it dies a quick death. Personally I think trying to make a film or tv show out of any of his books is a poor idea (see also: Douglas Adams)

This popped up on my news thingy a good while ago I was excited at first buuuutttttt NO the Pratchett internet community are not happy at all the books are very special as most reading this will agree.
Sky did a fair job with going postal but that's mainly because it was a two parter.

I'll probably give it a shot. It's been long enough since I last read Guards, Guards! that I may be able to separate my memories of it and judge the who on its own.

It's not like I've particularly cared for the other Terry Pratchett adaptations I've seen. The David Jason Rincewind thing (things?) didn't work very well for me and while the publicity shots for Good Omens looked promising I didn't manage to make it past the second episode or so when I tried to watch it. Something significantly divergent may have more luck.

Sky did a fair job with going postal but that’s mainly because it was a two parter.

IN my view the best adaptation yet, but that's only me.
Good Omens tried hard but was always going to be a bugger to do. The Discworld is pretty simple by comparison. A theatre group local to me even did plays of the books well enough for TP to approve.

although presumably she signed it off or signed away the rights at some point, probably a lesson there.

Not sure there’s much she can do, I don’t think she had any involvement in it, and as it’s ‘inspired by’ any control over what’s done by others.
Easiest way to deal with it is ignore it, and let it crash and burn in a deliciously epic fashion.

Aside from fury predictably erupting both within fandom.

Who cares? (see the angry young white men of the Star Wars hate-mobs) They have a book, what other people do with the source materiel is frankly none of their business. In an audience participation event; Rian Johnson said (I paraphrase) "If you don't like what I've done, you've two choices, don't watch it, or **** off to film school, and make a version of it yourself". Whining that a version of something doesn't match what's going on in your mind strikes me as a sort of sense of entitlement of a four year old at the ice cream parlour stamping it's feet cause the sprinkles aren't the right shade of blue and red

The casting is just plain weird.

I like colour blind casting: see the recent version of David Copperfield. To folk who've never read the book, it doesn't matter what's in your head about how a character looks.

Who cares?

I think mostly it's seen as a missed opportunity. If you're going to basically ignore everything about the source material then you might as well not have used the IP.

I like colour blind casting:

Her skin colour is the least of the problems with Sybil, I applaud that also. I could be wrong but I don't think such things were ever mentioned in the Discworld books. They'd had fared better with Queen Latifah.

Eh, anyway. I'm not going to judge it till I've seen it.

I love my Pratchet books, but that looks a bit of a giggle.

*heathen etc...

It isn’t just his looks (in fact remove the eyeliner and I would give him a chance), its the way he acts and speaks “wired” like a **** cokehead, I just don’t see how anybody reading the books could interpret the character that way.

Bear in mind, in the early books Vimes was a recovering alcoholic and generally a bit of a mess.

I love my Pratchet books, but that looks a bit of a giggle.

I mean, if you park your "ZOMG STARBUCK IS A WOMAN YOU'VE RUINED MY CHILDHOOD!!" sensibilities at the door then yes I'd be inclined to agree, it could be quite fun. Equally it could be a complete car crash. (-:

Maybe consider it a reboot rather than an adaption? Like, Robert Downey's Sherlock films?

Found previous adaptions pretty insipid, so looking forward to this.

Good acting transcends the physical so I don't think we need to worry too much about whether the actors look like the descriptions in the book.

I think mostly it’s seen as a missed opportunity. If you’re going to basically ignore everything about the source material

I present to you the film version of The Watchmen... It's as faithful as you can get to the comics in a 2 hour film, and guess what? It's a pile of shit. Zack Synder listened to the fans who said we want as close as you can get within the space of a movie, and so to do that the Black Freighter story was missed out, the actual plot of the end plan by Ozymandias was changed...etc etc. Everyone pretty much agrees that while it's not source materiel, the TV series actually has a better stab at what the comic books were trying to say. (Quis custodiet ipos custodes)

The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes what you need to do is take the feeling of something rather than the narrative. (for me) Pratchett was all about knocking down sacred cows with humour, if it manages to do that with some Ankh-Morpork tomfoolery thrown in, then they'll have succeeded in my mind.

This is now available on everyone's favourite internet haunts.

I'm trying to watch episode 1 at the moment. It's not going well so far.

In fact, it's a ****ing mess.

Thanks for the warning. I'll risk the first one.

I wish you hadn't revived this thread so I could have avoided watching that godawful trailer.

A theatre group local to me even did plays of the books well enough for TP to approve.

That’ll be the Salisbury Studio Theatre, I would imagine. As it happens, my g/f’s mum is very involved with that theatre, and was thrilled that Sir Terry of Pratchett thought so highly of it; she handles a lot of behind the scenes stuff, like making costumes, etc.
For someone in her 80’s, she does a lot of hard work for them.
She’s often running the bar in the evenings, too, but then, she ran pubs restaurants and hotels around the country, so a theatre bar is nothing!
She was a bit miffed at Terry consuming quite a lot of a special bottle of some spirit or other; I think it might have been a single malt of a decent vintage, I’ll try to remember and ask tomorrow.

Luckily I'd missed this mention the first time round. I always considered Vimes to be well, less animated and a lot more melancholy. And Cybil - definitely Hattie Jaques! These days, perhaps a (not as mad as in Potter) Emma Thompson? Tilda Swinton?
Hmm...

That’ll be the Salisbury Studio Theatre, I would imagine.

No, it is the Studio Theatre Group at the Unicorn in Abingdon. Stephen Briggs is the guiding light behind the Pratchett stuff being adapted for the stage.

https://discworld.fandom.com/wiki/Stephen_Briggs

Nice to see his stuff being performed live.

These days, perhaps a (not as mad as in Potter) Emma Thompson? Tilda Swinton?

They lack the physical presence written into Sybil. Maybe if Tamsin Greig gets a serious cake hobby she could do it.
And back on subject, I was going to view The Watch last night but there was some drama from the Colonies being shown last night that I found a rambling but strangely compelling spectacle.

Seen the first 2 episodes, was expecting to watch it with gritted teeth, but I enjoyed them both. No it doesn't follow the plot of GG and is more of a mishmash of plots from a few books and the characters aren't quite the same....but I enjoyed both episodes!

I think mostly it’s seen as a missed opportunity. If you’re going to basically ignore everything about the source material

Yes, that was my thought when I first saw it - why bother paying for the rights if you're going to take so little from it.

I must have read the first dozen or so Discworlds and then somehow lost the habit. I'd no idea he'd been quite so prolific and bought a box of 11 Pratchett books (including Long Mars / Long Utopia) from Ebay a couple of months back. Really enjoyed Making Money and The Truth so far...

I present to you the film version of The Watchmen… It’s as faithful as you can get to the comics in a 2 hour film, and guess what? It’s a pile of shit. Zack Synder listened to the fans who said we want as close as you can get within the space of a movie, and so to do that the Black Freighter story was missed out, the actual plot of the end plan by Ozymandias was changed…etc etc. Everyone pretty much agrees that while it’s not source materiel, the TV series actually has a better stab at what the comic books were trying to say. (Quis custodiet ipos custodes)

Agreed. Watchmen wasn't just close it was almost shot for shot but the movie just didn't work. It managed to be boring somehow (whilst the recent series was excellent)

I've not seen the show yet. Anna Chancellor as Vetinari is inspired, but that does not look like Sam Vimes. Was not awarre that Tamsin Greig had been cast as Sybil - while she;s a fine actress she just doesn't match the way Sybil is portrayed in the books. As above, the actress needs to have the physcial presence of Hattie Jacques. Joanna Scanlan would have been an excellent choice, for instance - brilliant actress.

Tamsin Grieg isn't Sybil, Lara Rossi is.

@chipps You think Vimes is mis-cast? Just don't get me started on Angua and Cheery...

Tamsin Grieg isn’t Sybil, Lara Rossi is.

Ah sorry I misunderstood the comment above. As good as she may be, Lara Rossi is to Tamsin Greig as Tamsin Greig is to Joanna Scanlan when it comes to Lady Sybil Vimes (née Ramkin). If you see what I mean...

You think Vimes is mis-cast? Just don’t get me started on Angua and Cheery…

@doormanic - I've not seen any of it yet, so I don't know what to expect... Carrot, for some reason I always saw as someone a bit like Steve Davis or Nicholas Lyndhurst... sorry for that image, folks 🙂

Steve Davis or Nicholas Lyndhurst...

In mannerisms perhaps, but either of them would have to spend some serious time in the gym to match the description of Carrot!

Tom Hopper in a ginger wig would make a good Carrot. I would also suggest Kristoffer Hivju but he's about 20 years too old.

I managed to get over the confusion and yeah, quite enjoying it. I really don't understand why they made it, mind- it seems pretty much designed to piss off big chunks of the people that should be its core audience- but then equally I don't know how interested I'd be to see a direct Guards, Guards series. it's doing fun and daft things with the material in the same way as Pratchett did with old fantasy, shakespeare, etc.

(can I get away with saying this in a fandom thread? Guards Guards is imo in the part of Pratchett's career that might be called "still figuring it out", along with Wyrd Sisters, and a bunch of other stuff. I love the Watch series but Men At Arms is really where it found its feet, just like Lords and Ladies is imo the first really great Witches book while Wyrd Sisters and Witches Abroad contain loads of good stuff but don't really quite bring it home)

Anyone still watching?

Nope. 30 minutes of ep01.
I couldn’t get past the casting.
My problem,

Massive Pratchett fan, and I thought the trailer looked fun - didn't realise that the full episodes were released so will have to give it a look. I'm fully anticipating it to not follow the books, but then I've absolutely hated every Sky/TV adaptation of Discworld stuff so far, so got nothing to lose!

If it was some random fantasy show it’d probably be OK, as it’s supposed to Pratchett it’s going to totally mess up my mental images of all the characters. Shame. 🙁

Agree. Many books really need to be kept just as books. Pratchett carved worlds in our minds where they belong. Not on a screen. Alternate-alternate realities need not apply!

I almost staff to watch this but can't find it on any of the streaming services we have. Where is it?

from today on bbc iplayer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/2021/the-watch

It's so bad I can't bring myself to be annoyed about it......

Vimes was always Pete Postlethwaite, but nowadays Paddy Considine or Mark Rylance.

Lady S? Penelope Wilton in a fat suit, innit?
Victoria Wood on chips would have been perfect.

I'd missed all of Pratchett's books until lockdown insomnia hit and I've now basically listened to the lot on Audible. I've always had Roger Allam as Vimes in my head (and I realise that he's a bit old for the early books) Pete Postlethwaite would have been wonderful, although I've always had someone in my mind a little heavier set. As for Carrot, I've always had Van Damme's dancing from Kickboxer in my head.

If Pete Postlethwaite was playing anyone it'd surely have to have been Rincewind.

Regular readers will know that I'm no stranger to a contentious comment. And I may be about to excel myself.

I've just watched the first episode. With the caveat I said earlier, if you accept that it's "based on" or "inspired by,"

I thought it was ****ing brilliant. I'm off back downstairs now to watch episode 2. Vimes is a hoot, the only glaring miscast so far has been Vetinari.

I agree - I've watched the first two episodes. Really enjoyed it. I'd go as far as best Pratchett TV series so far.

I think earlier adaptions undermined by trying to stick too closely to the books and fail because they can never live up to the world's we have built in our imaginations. I think this is supported by all the arguments about who should play the character as we've drawn them in our minds eye.

By putting a bit of space between the books and this series allows it to breathe.

Yeah.

Is it the show we wanted? No. Is it the show we expected? No.

Get over that and it's great. Cigar-chomping scenery-chewing Vimes is masterful. Angua as a tortured soul is heartbreaking. Sybil reimagined really works. Cheery needs a bit of space but I can see where they were going. Carrot is, well, a bit of a knob, but he always was. Speaking of which, where's Fred and Nobby?

Two episodes in I think my biggest criticism is what it's omitting. Where's CMOT Dibbler (McKenzie Crooke surely) selling rat-on-a-stick? But it's early days. And remember, Vimes in the early books was a reckless bitter alcoholic crackpot, our Sam as portrayed here wouldn't be a million miles out in a faithful recreation.

Y'know what I'm suddenly reminded of?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117509/

"Well, it's ruined the original Shakespeare!"

Watched the first couple of episodes yesterday and thought it was ok. I have  more or less completely removed any Pratchett link and am just taking it as a random sci fi/fantasy show.

*currently reading Thud

Incidentally,

Did anyone else spot the THE WATCH HOUSE sign glitch near the beginning?

I watched the 1st episode last night and didn't think it was too bad. That comes with the caveat that it needs to be watched without trying to tie it to discworld. It did feel a bit disjointed, I think in part due to the location seeming like it couldn't decide quite where it was set but I'd watch episode 2.

I'd like to see discworld done as I imagine it but it'd be really hard to do that as demonstrated by the stuff that has gone before. It'd need a lot of money throwing at the project to get it right and then it'd still piss everyone off because the casting wasn't right for what they wanted. And that would be more of an issue for that type of film/series because it's be tiring into those already invested for the core market.

It’d need a lot of money throwing at the project to get it right and then it’d still piss everyone off because the casting wasn’t right for what they wanted.

I don't think it would need a massive budget, I actually think that is the mistake getting made. Most of Pratchett's work, especially as the discworld grows from the early books, are character based it is the interaction and language of the characters as they develop and grow, that is the important part. Only a few special affects are really necessary, the fantasy is really only a framework to base the characters and humor upon. Ankh Morpork is basically a British city coming into the victorian era, with wizards and a sometimes benevolent dictator.

Is it the show we wanted? No. Is it the show we expected? No.

Agree with the above btw, the special effects could be shit (it's not as if there are massive battles every 5 mins anyway!), as long as it was done right.

CMOT Dibbler (McKenzie Crooke

Oh yes please

I thought the first two episodes were pretty good all things considered. **** me tho Its gone downhill fast since, I'm up to about 5 now but I'm not sure, I think I'm blocking it out.

Despite all my bitching I actually enjoyed it, possibly because I was having bets with myself over how far off the next character mentioned would be.
Has Buggy Swires made an appearance yet?

Watched the first three, and getting into its stride I think.

Slightly weird that it (obviously) doesn't tie in with the Discworld in my head, but once I got over that and accepted its "based on" I'm quite enjoying it.

Strangely, as an ardent Pratchett fan, I'm rather enjoying it. No the characters aren't as in the books, but as the ones in the books probably really only work in your head (or maybe the radio) it is a good homage drawing inspiration from the books. Enjoying the steam punk blade runner vibe too.

I've been enjoying it. While not true to the books and set in a different world, I do think it feels 'Pratchett'.

Enjoying the steam punk blade runner vibe too.

My lad and I picked up on Blade Runner feel to it

We quite enjoyed it.
It's not how we imagined Ankh Morpork or any of the characters, but it has charm, and terrible gurning from the Vimes character. It has humour, and terrible dancing. The characters were pretty recognisable, and had independence enough within the envelope to be able to grow.
I'd be quite keen for them to have confidence to go for a second series.

Huge discworld fan

This interpretation has nothing to do with any of Pratchetts books.
Awful so far

Episode 2....

Not pratchett. Doubt if he was about it would be made.

Cant decide if its shit assists not the discworld or if its just shit.

Hope it improves

And again hope it doesn't stop a proper discworld film

Anyone ever seen the animation's? They're mint.

And where can I play the old PC games on PC?

I’ve been a huge Pratchett fan since the 80s.

The Watch, as in this adaptation, is a ****ing car crash.

Is it the show we wanted? No. Is it the show we expected? No.

Get over that and it’s great.

Yeah, if you think of it as a show inspired by Pratchett, with actors enjoying themselves doing a whole lot of scenery chewing, it's fun to watch. I didn't think Vetinari worked, I always thought Zeljko Ivanek (the Magister from True Blood) was exactly what Vetinari would be like, but it was enjoyable nonsense to watch.

Ian Richardson as Vetinari would have been my shout, if it could be anyone.

Huge discworld fan

This interpretation has nothing to do with any of Pratchetts books.
Awful so far

I’ve been a huge Pratchett fan since the 80s.

The Watch, as in this adaptation, is a **** car crash.

So, why are you watching it? As some sort of self inflicted torture? so you can criticize it? It's weird behavior. Almost no novel ever, has survived being made into a film/series.

Is it the show we wanted? No. Is it the show we expected? No.

Exactly, cos it's not made for you - you've got the books. I can't imagine why anyone would want to watch a TV series of books they loved and yet wanted it to be exactly the same. How could it be? It's different in every reader's mind, for starters, and the way stories are constructed in the different media is completely different. Books, TV shows and films are all fundamentally different things.

Huge discworld fan

This interpretation has nothing to do with any of Pratchetts books.
Awful so far

Also a huge Discworld fan.

This interpretation has little to do with any of Pratchett's books.

I'm six episodes in now and it's bloody brilliant.

I enjoyed , it was a bit disjointed and obviously naff all like the books but It could never be too much like the books as everyone reads them and has things in their heads that they've taken from them and they'll all be different in different people
I'm now quite enjoying good omens on amazon

Also, forgive me but,

I'm warming to this scenery-chewing Sam Vimes as a reasonable interpretation of very early Pratchett Vimes. It's easy to forget but Vimes used to be an alcoholic crackpot loser, he grew into his boots over multiple books.

And if you don't buy into that then, well, if you pretend the books don't exist he's a glorious character.

Ankh Morpork is basically a British city coming into the victorian era,

And to kind of prove the point, where did you get Victorian era from? Always been medieval in my head.

So, why are you watching it?

Because I want to cause I was hoping it would be good.

Pretty stupid question really.

Why does it bother you what I watch , or is this thread only for people who like it .?
Weird

I’m six episodes in now and it’s bloody brilliant.

Hopefully it gets better then.

What's the age-rating on this? BBC describe it as "G - Contains language which may offend" on iplayer. Asking for an 11-year old who loved "His Dark Materials" 🙂

Because I want to cause I was hoping it would be good.

Because you wanted it to be the version of it you had in your head.

And to kind of prove the point, where did you get Victorian era from? Always been medieval in my head.

Tells you that it never will be, unless you're the one making it...So complain about the cinematography, complain about the effects by all means, but to complain about the interpretation just reveals to everyone that you've not got an imagination.