[Closed] The Union Jack

I agree with you, except for the bit about the Welsh flag. I was born in England, but have now lived half my life in Wales and generally, I'm a little bit envious of the Welsh people's evident pride that normally doesn't spill over into "othering" and thuggishness in the way that English nationalism does.

Except on match day, of course... 😉

We need a flag. It's a flag. Quite handy for embassies and ships and stuff.

What do you think you would ever need to use it for?

Labour are just trying to win back some voters.

Flag wavers of any nation I distrust.

Flag pole in the garden? Full loony arsehole

Flag in your window (including sports related)? Cock bag.

Round your neck? Grade A bellend.

Not sure why we should be felt to be embarrased by it. Why do we have to be the only nation on earth that some feel should be embarrassed by ourselves and be on some sort of path of self destruction? I'm not a flag waving kind of guy, but am proud to be British, proud to uphold British values which are not upheld everywhere around the globe even today, not even upheld in some parts of Europe, or by some in our own domestic politics. It perfectly fine for us to be proud of being British. you don't have to show it and wear Union Jack paraphernalia and 'fly the flag' but it is OK to be proud to be British, English, Scottish, Welsh and Northe Irish.

I've been fortunate enough to have travelled the globe and my overwhelming experience from everyone I've met in every country I've ever visited has been nothing but friendly and positive towards the British.

I think this is more of a case of our British reserve and modesty rather than anything else. Well English reserve and modesty as it doesn't seem to be something our Scottish and Welsh neighbours suffer from.

If the leader of our country can't fly our flag then who can?

I don't see much to be proud of with the UK right now - sure, some standouts like NHS staff and the good Captain Tom, but the contrast with 2012 is stark, an unstoppable slide to the right led by a narrow-minded nationalism with the Union flag front and centre.

It makes me very sad.

I know things change, just look at the way the St George’s Cross has been hijacked by the likes of the National Front and became the sign of football hooligans

Those types used the Union flag for years before they started using the SGC, which I think they adopted as lots of them identify themselves as English, not British really. The the sweaty socks are always trying to get away, NI is gonna end up end up part of Ireland, and the Welsh don't even have their own cricket team.

I had roofing work done by a cowboy roofer. I live in Scotland. He came to court wearing a Union Jack Covid mask the other day. Says it all to me.
I do like the Welsh flag though.

A flag is just a flag, its the stupid dumb ass decision we keep making as a country that upset me!

I'd love a flag pole in the garden.

4th july ... stars n stripes
14 july ... tricolore
A team goes on a good run in the football/rugby/cricket world cup ... their flag
etc

I'd ask for flags of my bday and have them all draped off pegs down one side of my hall for storage.

Problem is I live in a town and flag poles in town are double naff.

I'll wait til I make it out into the country, at some point.

Not sure why we should be felt to be embarrased by it. Why do we have to be the only nation on earth that some feel should be embarrassed by ourselves and be on some sort of path of self destruction?

A legacy of hundreds of years of colonial domination and slavery?

Maybe it's just me, but I've always perceived more negative associations with the St George's cross than the Union flag, "little Englanders" are not the same as those "proud to be British" (IMO/IME)...

As for "the call for Labour to ‘rally round the flag’" it was actually their own internal idea, and while I sort of understand it, they need to score back some votes and there's maybe a perception that part of Boris's success is straightforward jingoism. I don't think it's a game they should start playing, I'd rather Keir and Co. beat the Tories by being more competent, eloquent and less bastardly...

Professing love for a bit of cloth doesn't define most people's national identity, it's just an occasionally useful symbol.

I like it, but it’s just a flag, not something to be worshipped. Some of the history associated with it is good, some bad - it is what it is.

I have a flag pole in the garden. It was there when we moved in - I use it for a security camera!

I’d love a flag pole in the garden.

4th july … stars n stripes
14 july … tricolore
A team goes on a good run in the football/rugby/cricket world cup … their flag
etc

I’d ask for flags of my bday and have them all draped off pegs down one side of my hall for storage.

You are Sheldon Cooper and I claim my £5!

My boy has a Maps book which has all the flags of the world on the back. We choose a few at random and find out the stories behind them.

Hadn’t realised how many flags still have the Union Flag still in one corner. Even Hawaii!

It should serve as a reminder that despite your current levels of introspection about some of the not so savoury aspects of the British Empire, rightfully not present in the curriculum, that this great nation was once a civilising force in the world. And that plenty of it is still thankful for that. So wave it with pride folks!

that this great nation was once a civilising force in the world

By “civilising”, what exactly do you mean?

I’m not a flag waving kind of guy, but am proud to be British, proud to uphold British values which are not upheld everywhere around the globe even today, not even upheld in some parts of Europe, or by some in our own domestic politics.

Which values are these?

You are Sheldon Cooper and I claim my £5!

Gah, beaten to it! Enjoy your winnings!

The Union Jack is a maritime thing iirc.

The Union Flag? It's our national flag. All countries have one. It represents a country's history, both good and bad.

I have no problem with any country's flag, including my own. I'm aware it represents the good things in our history - like our fight against fascism - and the bad - our exploitation of the empire etc.

I do have a problem with people who are ignorant - deliberately or not - of the awful parts of our history and use the flag to "big up" the better bits in a blinkered nationalism. That's not the flags fault, that's a problem of education, media and politicians.

We need to focus on improving that, and not worrying about the flag. Treat the cause and not the symptom.

I'm sure the flagiest place I've been was Canada. I guess that (perhaps like Scotland) they feel the need to emphasise that they really aren't part of their more powerful neighbour. National flag, state flag, even some more local flags. Some of the states are more into this than others, particularly Newfoundland.

I bought two large cheap golf umbrellas on the way to the Twentyfour12 years ago. Because it was obviously going to rain all weekend (it did).
They were SportsDirect specials - £2.99 each so I just grabbed two out of the stand & bought them without actually looking at the design.

One has a Union Jack pattern across a large portion of it.
I never used to consider which one I was grabbing out of the garage if I needed one, but since the Brexit vote I tend to only go for the plain blue one.
Rightly or wrongly, for me the Union Jack seems to represent a way of thinking about 'our country' that I don't want to associate with.

Not sure why we should be felt to be embarrased by it. Why do we have to be the only nation on earth that some feel should be embarrassed by ourselves and be on some sort of path of self destruction?

embarrassed specifical by a flag no, embarrassed and ashamed of what it/ours represent 100%.

The Union Jack is a maritime thing iirc.

The flag people don’t think so any longer.

it is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. In 1908, a government minister stated, in response to a parliamentary question, that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag".[9][14]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack

A legacy of hundreds of years of colonial domination and slavery?

This is clearly a perfectly innocent question with no implications whatsoever...

Have any other countries a history or legacy of hundreds of years of colonial domination and/or slavery?

The Union Jack is a maritime thing iirc.

The Union Flag? It’s our national flag

A Jack of whatever sort goes on the front end of a boat (Ensign goes on the back). A flag is what you stick on a flagpole. Jack flags on wiki

Union Jack sounds catchier than Union Flag, obvs.

Have any other countries a history or legacy of hundreds of years of colonial domination and/or slavery?

Well the ancient Romans had the fasces, don’t think that’s faired too well.

Have any other countries a history or legacy of hundreds of years of colonial domination and/or slavery?

Loads.

FWIW half the Spanish are leery of their flag, up until very recently only very right-wing people would use it in public. It's got a bit more normalised since then (mainly thanks to the World Cup) but it's still got a whiff of fascism about it.

Mixed feelings.

-ve - as above, the hijacking, particularly the SGC by football hooligans and racists and to a lesser extent the plastic flag waving* / bowler hatted types but they're less about hatred than just a bit, well, 'muppetty'

+ve - yes we did some bad things in the name of empire but also some good things.

I tend to baulk at the idea of flying a flag** because of the risk of being associated with the bad things, but also if good people don't reclaim it it will forever belong to the racists and thugs.

* unless in  a cat / sudocreme based emergency

** I've got my initials on a sticker on my bike which has a Union Flag on it, does that make me a racist now?

Union flag: cool (or it was), 60s London, Noel Gallagher's guitar, bed spreads in students' rooms.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cbp2S0dWAAACCeb?format=jpg&name=small

England flag: the rugby team 5 nations love to see lose and this lot:

Garden flags
Cherished plates
LED soffit lights

All warning signs.

Have any other countries a history or legacy of hundreds of years of colonial domination and/or slavery?

Just reading the utterly fascinating Sapiens - there's been a lot of that kind of thing about, for a very long time. But I'm not sure "the other kids were all doing it too" is a valid reason to turn a blind eye to the darker sides of our colonial past.

Have any other countries a history or legacy of hundreds of years of colonial domination and/or slavery?

Belgium, France the Netherlands Turkey?

Not that it makes a difference to our behaviour.

Spare a thought for us in N.I, who have to look at the bloody things tied off lampposts, slowly fluttering away into stringy, red white and blue rags.

Beside me a contractor broke ground on a new site a couple of months ago. That night one of the things went up on the nearest lamppost in order to ward off any buyers from the wrong side of the house.

I've always found it handy to have a St Andrews Cross if abroad. It marks me out as not-English. A kilt works the same but is a bit bulkier.

Spare a thought for us in N.I, who have to look at the bloody things tied off lampposts, slowly fluttering away into stringy, red white and blue rags.

There's a few areas of Scotland like that too.

I’ve always found it handy to have a St Andrews Cross if abroad. It marks me out as not-English

I think you'll find abroad most people will just assume you're English anyway, round here it's a synonym for British 🙂

in the context of the  Labour Party looking to embrace some patriotic feeling to increase its votes... it does help, I find, in politics that you are actually perceived by voters that you do actually like the country you seek to govern.

it shows just how disconnected from the real. World some parts of Labour ( and by default their supporters, I suppose) have become. Fine it fills you with a sort of dread to have to wave the flag, but patriotism is not the same thing as Nationalism.

I think seeing it as a symbol of the right panders to them. Its just a flag of a country. I'm not a fan of nationalism in general so the whole flag waving thing does grate a bit but if the left want to use it then I think in principle its a good thing. Take it out of the hands of the nationalists and into more general use. I quite like when sports kits are made out flag designs. I was a bit envious of some nations where they work much better (Spain, Argentina, Croatia for example) but the 2012 Olympic kit was pretty good.

I don’t see much to be proud of with the UK right now – sure, some standouts like NHS staff and the good Captain Tom, but the contrast with 2012 is stark, an unstoppable slide to the right led by a narrow-minded nationalism with the Union flag front and centre

This about sums it up for me.
I associate it with a form a Nationalism that I don't like at all. It doesn't help that most of the right wing nut jobs on Twitter have it in their pic.

The flag people don’t think so any longer.

I've learnt something today.

I tend to baulk at the idea of flying a flag** because of the risk of being associated with the bad things, but also if good people don’t reclaim it it will forever belong to the racists and thugs

This sums up my personal feelings/dilemma very well. Ilkeston CC is currently Cycling Weekly "Club of the Year" for all our great work with the club and community. Our club jersey includes both the Union Flag and St George's cross, and I'm never sure if that represents the club taking them back as we pride ourselves on inclusivity, or it represents the fact that we were the first area to elect a UKIP MEP and were one of the main bases for the BNP.

I want to keep "supporting" both flags to show that they are not the exclusive possession of rabid racist Brexit loons, but I'm aware that having them on our kit, or flying in the garden, does leave you open to the automatic assumption that you are.

The latest club kit also has the LGBT rainbow incorporated in as well - I have no qualms about having that in our club kit and what it represents. Presumably I'm more comfortable being associated with the LGBT community than racists, which is not a bad place to be.

A legacy of hundreds of years of colonial domination and slavery?

Seriously ?

Why would I be embarrassed about it ?

I knew how this thread was going before opening it.

My favourite place to see the Union Flag is on the roof of a Mini. (and the rear light clusters).

I chuckle every single time I see one as it's basically the Germans trolling.

The union flag on the rear light cluster of our car is a constant source of “amusement” for my Canadian partner.

Belgium, France the Netherlands Turkey?

Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy, Egypt....

It’d be a long list I suspect.

Tibet for bonus points.

Can't say I was a massive fan of flags & flag waving ever, but since brexit mostly I just cringe

You only have to look at the people that use it on twitter to see it represents jingoism & xenophobia to many 🇬🇧🙁

Being part of the international jet set I insist on flags in the garden at all my houses, I can then quickly check where I am and which time zone. 🙃

Huh, allegedly;

Until 1959, when China cracked down on Tibetan rebels and the Dalai Lama fled to northern India, around 98% of the population was enslaved in serfdom. Drepung monastery, on the outskirts of Lhasa, was one of the world's largest landowners with 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. High-ranking lamas and secular landowners imposed crippling taxes, forced boys into monastic slavery and pilfered most of the country's wealth – torturing disobedient serfs by gouging out their eyes or severing their hamstrings.

Wonder how accurate that article is? I’m not familiar with the author.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/10/tibet-china-feudalism

Professing love for a bit of cloth doesn’t define most people’s national identity

No but it definitely covers 328m of us.

It should serve as a reminder that despite your current levels of introspection about some of the not so savoury aspects of the British Empire, rightfully not present in the curriculum, that this great nation was once a civilising force in the world.

C'mon DD you need to do better than that. Almost had me.

My favourite place to see the Union Flag is on the roof of a Mini. (and the rear light clusters).

I chuckle every single time I see one as it’s basically the Germans trolling.

Cracks me up every time. I wonder if there is an alternative cluster available with the indicator and tail light arranged either side of the fog /reverse light.

I want to keep “supporting” both flags to show that they are not the exclusive possession of rabid racist Brexit loons, but I’m aware that having them on our kit, or flying in the garden, does leave you open to the automatic assumption that you are.

I genuinely feel sorrow at this.

C’mon DD you need to do better than that.

Gimme a break. I’d only had one coffee. 😀 🇬🇧

4th july … stars n stripes
14 july … tricolore
A team goes on a good run in the football/rugby/cricket world cup … their flag
etc

Yeah, I'd do this too, and would have the Union Flag, (isn't the term Union Jack somthing to do with it being flown on boats? Anyhoo, I digress) on days when there was no other countries national dates to celebrate. But the missis isn't keen.

There is an erroneous myth that has built up that it is only the Union Jack when flown on a ship, but this is wrong, even the Admiralty said so...

Yup. See my post on p1

yes we did some bad things in the name of empire but also some good things

Yeah I mean, people hate on the Nazis but they had great uniforms.

I really want a Hugo Boss suit.

I don’t see much to be proud of with the UK right now – sure, some standouts like NHS staff and the good Captain Tom, but the contrast with 2012 is stark, an unstoppable slide to the right led by a narrow-minded nationalism with the Union flag front and centre.

It makes me very sad.

To be honest you need to get out more and give social media a rest. More than likely your friends aren't how you portray the UK.

It's clear that everytime one of our great BAME athletes drapes themselves in the flag it is changing what it means, who it represents, and gives clear signals that there is a better future for all that call the UK home. It's still work in progress but it's not what you portray

some of the not so savoury aspects of the British Empire, rightfully not present in the curriculum, that this great nation was once a civilising force in the world. And that plenty of it is still thankful for that

Dear god, where to start!!

I grew up in Glasgow. After living in Yorkshire for years I realised why I felt nervous every time I saw a Union Jack - basically waiting to see if it was all going to kick off.

I associate it with sectarianism and Brexit has probably just reinforced that with a whole new sort of secular sectarianism.

some of the not so savoury aspects of the British Empire, rightfully not present in the curriculum, that this great nation was once a civilising force in the world. And that plenty of it is still thankful for that

"that this great nation was once a civilising force in the world." WOW! Must. Not. Get. Triggered.

Can you just like... clarify what you mean by civilising force in the world?

Yup. See my post on p1

Sorry, skimmed past it! Annoys me when people jump from first post to reply with information that's already been given, especially when it's wrong so I shall now go and iron my head like a bad house elf.

To be honest you need to get out more and give social media a rest.

Now that I DEFINITELY agree with! 🙂 Not so easy at the moment, though....:(

More than likely your friends aren’t how you portray the UK.

It’s clear that everytime one of our great BAME athletes drapes themselves in the flag it is changing what it means, who it represents, and gives clear signals that there is a better future for all that call the UK home. It’s still work in progress but it’s not what you portray

Maybe it IS a social media thing, and I accept that, as much as my individual view of the world looks *like this*, other people may see it *like that* and the only difference between us is perception and opinion. But it just seems like there's such division and intolerance out there - how much work has been done to counter racism, and STILL Marcus Rashford and other footballers get racist abuse, you have the BLM marches which were overwhelmingly peaceful and the next week London shuts because it's full of thugs desperate to kick off with the police, you talk about BLM online and people tell you it can't be supported because it's Marxist and wants to cancel the police. I dunno - I look back at *dons rose-tinted specs* 2012 and there was such unity and joy in the country, it felt. Now we're 9 years further on, people are outraged - outraged! - that the BBC want to cancel Land Of Hope And Glory at the end of the proms, they're outraged at the idea of revisiting our history and reconsidering whether we SHOULD have statues venerating people who profited from the slave trade, and if you're not fully, positively behind Brexit then you're a lefty hand-wringing bedwetting remoaner. We've got a government that are frankly dishonest, corrupt and incompetent, who want to slash the aid we give to poor countries and those in need, we've a Home Secretary who is nudging right up to the line of persecuting refugees, and I think to myself - this is not a country I feel particularly proud of, right now.

The Union Jack is indelibly linked to the British Empire.
The British Empire, like most empires, was based on supremacism - the belief that English/British/Saxons were superior to other peoples.
That's what was used to justify slavery, invasions, the plundering of resources etc.
Over the years that basic belief has become more nuanced but it has never gone away.

It was a belief held by one of the most revered figures in British nationalism - Winston Churchill.
It's what drove much of the Brexit campaign - we're better than them.
Even the bright, shiny Britpop stuff of Tony Blair was based on the basic idea that Britain is the greatest, most creative etc.
There's fundamental toxicity to British nationalism and that's represented by a flag.

To be honest you need to get out more and give social media a rest. More than likely your friends aren’t how you portray the UK.

It’s clear that everytime one of our great BAME athletes drapes themselves in the flag it is changing what it means, who it represents, and gives clear signals that there is a better future for all that call the UK home. It’s still work in progress but it’s not what you portray

Very valid point - it's a question of perspective and lived experience I know, but there's a colossal amount of good people doing great things in this country that get overshadowed by idiots being arseholes.

More than likely your friends aren’t how you portray the UK.

Isn't this true for all of us? Haven't the events that have occurred since 2012 taught us that "our friends" are not as representative of the UK population as a whole as me might have once believed?

Well played deadlydarcy, you've reeled in quite a few!

the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag

I suppose the 'jack' part is simply descriptive of the thing that we use as a flag - in the same way that the Welsh Dragon isn't an actual dragon or the Rising Sun isn't actually a giant sphere of plasma.

Can you just like… clarify what you mean by civilising force in the world?

I think the idea was the we invade other civilized countries (and pretend that they weren't civilized because they were the wrong colour) and cause a few years/decades/centuries of chaos, plunder and genocide, before leaving them with railroads and cricket. What's wrong with that? Oh, and then pretend it never happened and ask why everybody hates us.

There are apparently only 22 countries in the world that we've not invaded at some point. I haven't checked on that fact, btw!

Well played deadlydarcy, you’ve reeled in quite a few!

If by reeled you mean outed himself as a closet racist, then yes bravo.

If by reeled you mean outed himself as a closet racist, then yes bravo.

It's worse than that, I think he's just blown his cover!

Would it spoil the fun to point out that Darcy is Irish?

At the risk of stereotyping the Irish aren't known for being the biggest fans of the British empire.

I fear my assimilation has gone too far!

Only came here for the Eddie izzard sketch.

Do think the Lego version is better.

Off to watch death star canteen next

Jeff Vader?

Who?

You mean Mr Stevens?

Would it spoil the fun to point out that Darcy is Irish?

Notvreally no, posting shite still means its shite even if you try and hide behind, its a joke or trolling.

Name me a country that doesn’t have a chequered past.

@MoreCashThanDash

Ilkeston CC is currently Cycling Weekly “Club of the Year” for all our great work with the club and community

Your new club kit looks great, our club was discussing it the other day on our club chat. I ride with South Normanton CC.

Notvreally no, posting shite still means its shite even if you try and hide behind, its a joke or trolling.

Agree. im out. this is going to become a pointless "debate."

Your new club kit looks great, our club was discussing it the other day on our club chat. I ride with South Normanton CC.

Nothing to do with me, I can assure you, but I'll pass that on 👍

Agree. im out

As, it appears, am I! 😃

It's a tricky one, isn't it.

A nation's flag is an icon representing that nation. And as flags go, there's fewer as iconic as ours. No-one should feel uncomfortable about flying their own country's flag.

But. It has been hijacked. You see a flag in someone's front garden and your immediate thought - or at least, my immediate thought - is "why?" England flag = "racist". Union [Jack | Flag] = "I'm not racist, but..." (EU flag = "best friend must be a glazier".)

And really, that's a terrible place for us to be. To my mind the rot was setting in for the England flag when I was a kid in the 1970s, the SGC being appropriated by people who think "England" has three syllables (and ironically probably don't know what a 'silly bull' is). It's represented wilful othering for as long as I can remember. But how did we lose the Union Flag? Have we, even?

Careful, now.