[Closed] The mass of men live lives of quiet desperation ?

Quiet desperation is my default. I relate to a lot of what you just said but I can't type up a lengthy reply right now. I'm having a pretty hard time mentally at the minute. Just desperate for the sun to come out and have a break from work. I'm painfully aware that I've got at least 35 years of this shit left and my only escape is dropping dead.

This is why I often think evolution has gone down a blind alleyway with human consciousness. We would be much more successful as a reproducing organism if we weren't prone to existential angst. Can't do much about it though, just crack on and get on your bike.

I think your basic thesis is right because we are taught from an early age ( many of us) to measure yourself by how much you have rather than how happy you are.  I believe a lot of the mental health difficulties we have as a society come from this.  Peiople reach middle age and have all the toys and think " why am I not happy"

I have earned far less than the national average wage half of my working life and even my best years only a little above.  My missus despite a law degree never earned above the national average.

But we were both fulfilled in our work and only worked to live.  Our happiness came from things money cannot buy.  Listening to birds sing, watching sunsets and sunrises, spending a lot of time outdoors. riding bikes and wild camping.  Our best holidays came from walking in Scotland and wild camping - a very cheap pastime

yes you do need money to do this and poverty is awful  but concentrating on what makes you happy rather than earning as much as you can and buying lots of toys only to realise in your middle years that you have missed so much IMO leads to a happier life.

Yes im a bloody hippy at heart 🙂

Quiet desperation is my default. I relate to a lot of what you just said but I can’t type up a lengthy reply right now.

Same here 😐

I suspect there is much truth in the quote, sadly...

I hope my post did not sound preachy or holier than tho

I was trying to explain how I have found happiness without a lot of money ( although more than many)

Its because I find my happiness in things that are intangible and acheiveable at little cost and that I rarely compare my lives to others.

Kaiser - I see a lot of myself in what you write. Mildly privileged background, well travelled, life and soul of the parties, specialist in going one step beyond, well paid, great job, lovely wife and family, nice house etc. Also, the other side with times of deep introspection, blank and bleak lack of any reason for existence etc. Also dry since last August.

The thing that changed for me was during a particularly slow-mo near death experience when stuck on loose shale sliding towards a cliff edge with every movement for a couple of hours before being rescued. I had some amazing clarity of mind and could really think things through.

Using your example of falling off a cliff and waiting to hit the bottom - quite glad I didn't think of that example at the time - you get some clear focus.

1) You cannot stop the fall.
2) You cannot avoid the impact.
3) Anything you decisions or actions between where you are now and the impact are fundamentally pointless.
4) Doing nothing is a decision and action so see previous point

Once I established and really understood that everything I said, did or didn't do was fundamentally pointless I felt like a massive burden was lifted. I was free to do anything or nothing. I could be as nice or unpleasant to people as I liked. I could be as active or as lazy as I wanted. Total freedom from all stress and anxiety.

I discovered being nice to people made my life nicer and easier. Nice people were nice back and it magnified the effect. Horrible people got confused by my niceness and were either nice or wandered off shaking their heads. People I liked seemed to want to spend more time with me and people I didn't like seemed to gravitate away.

I am not sure if this helps you, or anyone else, but it was my experience and only came after about 6 years of unhappiness in my early/mid 40s

I sacked off all that “he who dies with the most toys, wins” shit at around 26, and have spent most of the rest of my life working in the charity sector. For whatever reason, I’ve always managed to avoid being pigeon-holed, so have managed to switch the focus of my work 3 or 4 times over the course of my working life (60 this year).
While I’d not want to pretend that my life is free of any periods of anxiety, self-doubt or anomie, I’d say that overall, I was pretty satisfied with the way things have panned out most of the time; I’m involved in work that I find meaningful, I have a reasonable level of control over the bits of life we can reasonably expect to control, and at the core of it all, married to a lovely lady who I regard as my soul mate and best friend.
There are circumstances that cause me ongoing frustration though - the persistence of the British electorate to shoot itself in the foot being one of them. I guess one of the concepts that keeps me sane is the conviction/delusion that, as MLK put it “the moral arc of the universe is long, but it tends towards justice”, but I’d really appreciate it if that was a bit more apparent - maybe if Putin could explode in a shower of maggots on live TV or something.

I might make more of a contribution later but for now.
Not just me then.

I expected to find Pink Floyd's "Time" in this thread... in many ways I suppose I have.

I am satisfied with my life. I do very little compared to a lot of people, gave up materialism in my 20s, and just enjoy being with wife and animals, riding my bike, playing guitar and so on.

I think I always had low expectations and just flowed through life with no plan or aspirations which means I don't ever stop to think what it could have been, whether others are doing a better job of life than me etc,. as not something I am bothered about.

This is why I often think evolution has gone down a blind alleyway with human consciousness. We would be much more successful as a reproducing organism if we weren’t prone to existential angst.

I often look at my dog and think how nice it must be, to just exist. I’m quite jealous of her.

I care and think too much and wish I was thick, Insensitive and ignorant Life seems easier for people with those qualities!

I doubt it, I don't think those guys are having a ball, My view is that I care as much as I can afford to.

 Our best holidays came from walking in Scotland and wild camping – a very cheap pastime

Could I gently suggest that you watch the wee video on the front page about the really talented wheelie kids from inner city London taking their first trip out of London to Scotland, and perhaps reflect on your assumptions a bit?

I often look at my dog and think how nice it must be, to just exist. I’m quite jealous of her.

Isn't that why people reproduce?

It took me far too long to realise that buying shit doesn't make you happy, its reward is fleeting. No-one ever laid on their death bed thinking "man, I wish I'd bought more video cassettes." I had a huge purge when I moved house and not gonna lie, it was painful. But do I miss it? Eh, a little but not as much as I thought. This [thing] has a [value] but is that value worth more to me than the space it's taking up?

Yeah, why do we keep on reproducing? My son is a third my age and already I can see the signs of an over-thinker. But he's got a lovely girlfriend and no doubt, somewhere down the line, another child... what a weird species we are.

I didn't expect to get many replies and certainly not so quickly. Thanks to all so far ..at least getting the feeling out in the open makes you feel less alone when it seems that everyone else ..everywhere are having such wonderful lives !
I never wanted children , a career or much really ..just wanted to escape all the expectation . I knew that the things that people claimed made their lives so fantastic wouldn't work for me . I just wanted to look deeper as I felt their must be more to life than the default Job, house, kids , holidays etc. I think the answer lies in Buddhist and such like philosophies .. At least they were decent and honest enough to tell you that you weren't a freak because you suffered despite having it all . As TJ says ..we are told from an early age that the route to happiness is money and acquisition ..despite everybody knowing that underneath it all that's bullxxxx. Certainly having what you need makes life less stressful but look around at all the mega wealthy who are never satisfied and never will be.
Our societies are force fed promises of happiness if only you would buy or do something that's for sale .We keep swallowing it over and over and get the dopamine hit but little more. This rampant greed has made everything for sale and many things unnafordable for those lower in the social classes.
Thank you TJ for replying ..I had hoped you would as you have talked a fair bit of sense over the years from what I read and I know you have had a taste of the "unsatisfactory" nature of life recently. You spend your whole life building up things and in a moment it can and will eventually all come down . I know you work in the mental health department so no doubt gain wisdom and strength from that .
Seems daft .. I lost my beloved cat which was pretty much the only thing I derived pleasure from from recently ..( don't tell the wife ) since then life has been even more empty and everyday the process of getting through another round of monotony makes me ask why ..what do we do it for ... I guess our genes could tell you that.
Also things do generally get better sometimes despite my ramblings . I hope that will happen for you Sharkattack and all others..it's just when you are depressed or struggling for an extended period you feel like it has been like that forever.
I have done more in my life experience/travel wise than the majority and in my younger years enjoyed much of it so it seems madness to feel like I've failed in life . I think it's because I was a successful hedonist rather than achieving much substantial but then again that is all subjective ..I mean people tell you what is important in life but that's purely subjective and much of what we think is just what someone else has told us and we regurgitate it too others. Nothing is really important is it?
I often say the most worthwhile thing you can do in life is to reduce suffering as there's a lot about ..hidden behind false smiles and sham behaviour. People seem afraid to tell the truth . How are you they ask ... Very well you reply despite feeling like you are dying rather than living.
Sorry ..rambling again ...you can tell I spent a lot of time thinking about such things.

As well as Thoreau I love the Philip Larkin poem : They **** you up ( or whatever it's called ) ..so true and people don't realize it . A benchmark book on PTSD .. the body never forgets or a similar title is also based on the fact that trauma is passed down through generations subconsciously . My Mother handed on her GAD to me as a baby without knowing and certainly not wanting too. People bring up children with their own ideas and values which were told to them by their parents and influences and often produce suffering as a result.

It's funny how a day after being born most people are given a name and religion ..(not of their own choosing ) and spend the whole of their lives defending it !

I'll shut up now as I'm off tangent ..forgive me for that ..I'm a fallible human being with a washing machine mind that rarely gets emptied ! Or maybe is a Rubbish bin !

I can relate to a lot of what you say OP. Don't know what else to say. Don't know that there's any point saying anything. So I'll just say I'm sorry to hear that it's not just me.

Nickc - the things that make me happy can be done by anyone anywhere for little money.  watching sunrise and sunset, walking in the park, hearing birds sing.  I didn't leave the city for 2 years and still found those moments of happiness.  finding a badger set onsome urban waste ground, just walking round th ecity looking at the buildings

its about attitude not access

I know I have got under your skin but how about easing off the personal attacks?  Its a fair few over the last few weeks

I think about purpose a lot. Is our purpose here to simply breed and then die off? Have we artificially prolonged our lives long past the point they can usefully serve this purpose.

OR is it about making yourself 'happy' or maybe just content? But what for, simply to consume more of this planets resources? How does me being happy help.

I think maybe the key is to focus on what we will leave behind when we do exit this place. What interactions, what legacy will be left you. Can you improve this can you somehow improve the existence on others so they in turn can improve the existence of others? I like to think when I check out I will have benefitted others. Have been lucky enough to have 3 wonderful kids including a paediatric nurse and paramedic who change lives daily. I have 'saved' a woman trying to take her own life - I'm not trying to brag here but offer examples which I take something from where I feel I have had had some purpose beyond simply existing. But those events were in the past.

So what is my future purpose/ Do I have reason to be here now. I don't know and in the past there have been times I was totally convinced I had no further purpose and the world would be better off without me in it.

That was in the past. I now hope I still do have more purpose to come. I just must content I don't know what it is yet.

thought provoking post - thank you for posting

Took me so long to write that last piece I hadn't noticed many more wonderful contributions . I have to go out now but will reply later . Keep them coming ..uncovering this conspiracy of silence feels most refreshing. Appreciate the honesty . XXX

The mass of men live lives of quiet desperation

It could be worse, you could have moments of hope.

I know that's very flippant but I imagine many can probably relate to it. I often think the problem is an innate need for a sense of purpose, after the basics to keep you alive and reasonably comfortable, I think that is the most important thing we need. Why would I like to be in a relationship again? Not for what it gives me directly but for what it is to be something to someone else again

I know you work in the mental health department

I worked in care of the older adult ie old folk and am now retired on an income most on here would find laughable.  My choice to retire at 60 despite the low income that give me - because there is more to life than work

The ( pretentious? 😉  ) philosophy I have lived my life by is:

1) do as much good as you can
2) do as little harm as you can
3) have as much fun as you can

In that order.  its informed my entire life

I’m painfully aware that I’ve got at least 35 years of this shit left and my only escape is dropping dead

Please talk to someone, bottling that up really isn't good.

But yes, I'm in the quiet desperation camp. Actually not that quiet - just started on the Citalopram and been signed off for a fortnight. Was hoping to be signed off for my remaining 15 years, but a fortnight at a time will do. Work commitments, family commitments, caring commitments can all, quite frankly, do one.

Hoping that this forecast warm/dry spell actually materialises.

Out of curiosity OP, how old are you? Although I've been aware of some of this kind of stuff for a while, it's only really in the last couple of years that it's really started to hit me more, in classic midlife crisis way.

As you guys have touched on, much of it comes back to defining ourselves by what we do / have done/ will do/ achieved. Particularly for men there's an expectation that we reinforce that our lives are about doing, will do, did. The stereotypical 'female' self-definition may be based more around being, will be, was - although I know several really driven and 'do'-oriented women.
One of the challenges we face is as we get older, a bunch of the stuff we focused on doing we've either done, or realise doesn't count for much - and/ or we feel less able to do them in the future. Really immersive travel is tougher when you're older and have family, so no more 3 months in the Himalayas for me. If having family is an achievement, when the kids grow up it can feel like you've "done" a fair chunk of that (or at least the fun parts!). And when it comes to work, as we get older and promoted about as far as we're likely to, it really becomes apparent how pointless it all is, at least in terms of defining your achievements by it.
So the whole framework of our self-definition is just eroded away, and we feel fairly lost and uncertain of what we're even doing any more (in a where is my life going kinda way).

Layer on that the well-researched difficulties men have in making or finding friends past the age of about 30 and it's certainly not uncommon, I'd suggest!

I think that this existential angst is the reward for anyone who stops long enough to think about things. I also agree with WCA that accepting that it is all essentially pointless can be very liberating - it's not depressing, it just means that you don't have to worry about whether you're getting it right.

Have you ever read Siddhartha? He tries asceticism, hedonism, wealth and poverty but in the end finds peace as a ferryman, listening to the river, watching it flow, and helping people across it.

its about attitude not access

For you it is. Like I said watch the video. For you to access to all these things is a given, you have the education, knowledge, expectations, priviledge that make all these things available to you. Wild camping for instance...tents food, time off work, the knowledge that your flat will still be there while you're away the knowledge that your presence won't be questioned and on and on, stuff you don't have to think about For inner city kids in Bradford or London or even Glasgow, or Edinburgh, not so much eh?

I'm not aiming for personal attacks TJ, but this is the same of the fuel thread, you tend towards the idea that "This is what I have, so it must be the same for everyone else" Stop doing that, it isn't fair.

accepting that it is all essentially pointless can be very liberating – it’s not depressing, it just means that you don’t have to worry about whether you’re getting it right.

That sums it up well for me but again I had no aspirations/expectations so anything that does happen in a positive way is a bonus.

Nickc - how about you open your mind and listen?  That is not what I am doing at all.  Now please stop attacking me all the time because you do not understand the points I make because they are outside your experience.

I could have pulled you up on many statements you have made that are provably wrong but haven't because I do not want to get into more bickering but its very tiresome to have you following me around the forum making baseless attacks on my character.

Edit - I will leave this thread because its not about me even tho Nickc wants to use it to attack me

Quiet desperation turning to noisy desperation already, I see.

anhedonia

I'm glad I learned this word from this thread. I've been feeling it for years and it's sent me off into some good reading material.

I’m not aiming for personal attacks TJ, but this is the same of the fuel thread, you tend towards the idea that “This is what I have, so it must be the same for everyone else” Stop doing that, it isn’t fair.

I fully agree with this but can we please not destroy another potentially useful thread by turning it into TJ VS. The World.

@TJ

Not everyone likes or even responds to the same things. Just a gentle warning that you are at risk of sounding smug. You have been fortunate to find things you enjoy in the first place, and been in a position to gain access to them. People often have problems even finding joy in the first place never mind holding onto it.

I think about purpose a lot. Is our purpose here to simply breed and then die off?

We don't have a purpose. This doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing though. You are free of obligation other than those you choose. The trick is to find a way to get enough money to live without being too miserable, that's all you have to do 🙂

I think a lot of it comes down to figuring out who you actually are and what that means.

Oh and I'll provide a counterpoint to those advocating simplicity. I couldn't handle a menial job no matter how simple. I need a challenge. I am only happy at work when I've got some really difficult problem to solve or to manage. The idea of having to do menial work fills me with horror.

I think a lot of it comes down to figuring out who you actually are and what that means.

Indeed Moly.
We are all wired slightly different,so try to avoid too many short circuits.
I think happiness is overrated,contentment is where it's at 🙂

anhedonia

I'm with you, I recently spoke to someone about losing my sense of enjoyment, about going through the motion of things because I should be "Enjoying" them..... but not feeling anything.

You do have a purpose - you’re a DNA replicating machine whether you like it or not.

Sounds to me like what you need is a kitten or two.

Do not try and bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you’ll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself

Hokey movie wisdom, but the allegory that there is no point to the infinite permutations of creation and you decide upon your own purpose is surely not lost?

Of course, the difficulty of deciding ones 'point' for oneself is the hard bit.

This is where, rightly or wrongly, belief systems can be brought in as a salve for the soul.

The alternative is nihilism, which ends in the obliteration of the self when nothing matters.

Ho hum.

I think I have struggled in a similar way to the OP for much of my life but, thankfully, to a lesser degree. If it's of any help, I have been practising mindfulness and meditation for a good few years now and it has massively improved my mental state and my outlook on life. Just hoping I'm not about to be flamed for that comment though!

The alternative is nihilism, which ends in the obliteration of the self when nothing matters

Or the other conclusion is hedonism.

Interesting thread, i thought i was driven by money, property, business etc turns out i was actually building security and control - as a kid we got hoofed out of two houses (tied cottages) and this had a big impact on me.

I dont like anyone having control of me or my life choices.... i have got that security at the age of 58.

I am not "object" orientated, i could drive a Range Rover but i dont want one and even i am not that big of a ****.

However money is not important until there is none...

I can identify with a lot of what you say op.
Ultimately I'm left feeling empty by life.

It could be worse, you could have moments of hope.

Made me laugh!

But them I am on SSRIs which definitely make the world a nicer place (for me anyway)...

@tjagain i think you've been treated unfairly by a couple of posters here. I read your contribution as the framing of a fairly simple and largely accessible approach to contentment. There will always be folk who experience barriers to nature and the outdoors but that doesn't detract from the potential for a whole range of people.

Right or wrong.
Make a decision.
The road of life is paved with flat squirrels who couldn't make a decision.

Can't help with anything deep but ameliorate by keep going for the flow: plunging into cold seawater, riding over rough terrain, standing in a field, passionate (whatever), walking steeply, push yourself. Stop still and your demons will have a field day and you'll be on here again.

Some more great contributions and shame about the bickering . As the OP .. I was asked 2 questions .. I am 58 and started thinking about this stuff decades ago .. didn't know it was existential angst until recently .
I did so much when younger as a hedonist and world traveller I feel I kind of did many of the good things in life too much and too quickly and this was enabled by avoiding the rat race and having time and bit of money. I'm now stuck with regular anhedonia ,zero direction ,no security , poor mental health etc and as was mentioned earlier by another contributor .. I feel really stressed having no control.Some may say that the price I paid for the chains that I refused and as a result now have to do my time ( so as to speak ) .I thought the other day .. if I became homeless with my neuroses due to no rent money ..I could probably survive but really not sure I'd want to .
Liked the squirrels getting flattened analogy .

Those are wise words BillMC .. I may write that down .. thanks and so true.
I take cold showers everyday already and there is benefit. Also feel much better after my hilly rides which were regular until recently ...what a coincidence eh . Yes doing that tough stuff gives your mind a rest rather than chewing over existence incessantly and coming on here to spread rumours that life may not be quite the dream it was promised ! Apologies if it has brought anyone down but talking is good ..or it is at least for me and I have no Ody who'd want to listen to that content or even give it a second thought ....I'm depressed right !

Interesting thread, and given my life 'story' here's my thoughts...

In short in the last 2 years I've gone from professional career in IT with all the trimmings, to driving a lorry. And I am much happier in the latter. I ponder this a great deal.

I had a 20 year career in IT, and a 20 year marriage covering same period. In last 5 years I've lost both, by other peoples definition I lost 'everything'. But in reality I regained my life.

The truth is I was desperately unhappy, the quiet desperation that I think Thoreau is talking about. At its worst I was hospitalised for severe depression. One morning I was riding on my bike to the train station to get the usual commuter to London, I realised I'd forgotten my security pass, it was raining, and it triggered a massive breakdown which took 5 years to recover from fully. A few years after that I was offered redundancy and I took it without hesitation and exited my IT career. About same time I left my wife. I had literally written out in a journal during recovery from my breakdown that I needed to burn everything down, simplify, re-start, if I was to salvage some happiness from the reamining years of my life.

Key to this was changing my relationship with stuff. I don't need a new audi on the drive - nobody does. I don't need to spend £50 on a kettle to boil water, £5k on a kitchen, £3k on bike, £500 on a device to scroll through shit on the internet. You do not need any of that.

I often here phrases like "well I have 'everything' I don't understand why I am stil unhappy". My simple answer to that is the 'everything' has been defined by others, and not you.

Today I deliver concrete and I love it. I work with people who I can call friends, I've never laughed so much in work, several of them ride bikes and push me on. I take my dog with me most days and he loves it. It takes me 5 mins to drive to work, or I can bike via the trails for as long as I need or want to. We have showers at work. I'm trusted, and valued, and left to get on with it. I am paid very well and actually have as much disposable income now as I did in my IT career. I have a partner who geuinely cares and is emotionally independent and capable, and very hard working (a teacher). We've worked all hours in last 2 years to build our own home.

Bottom line is I've never worked harder in my life, and I've never been happier.
I'm no longer judged at work for my choice of company car. I no longer kill time in an email factory, or fill a seat in another pointless meeting (the unsaid truth being we're all there to pass time pretending to work). COrporate life is soulless, gutless, an empty existence - all of it.

I love work, I love getting home feeling like I've worked. I believe that's what we're supposed to be doing - work, striving, getting rough hands creating something of worth, and improving ours or other peoples lives. Nothing you can 'buy' will every replace that. No flourescent lit air conditionditioned office can replace that.

A long time ago society took your labour and replaced with tokens that you can use to 'buy' the basics to survive. That expanded to pointless shit you don't need.
I belive true happiness comes from getting as close as you can to breaking that cycle.

Towards the end of my IT career I used to stand, detached, and look at the withered bodies and grey faces passing time, running down the clock, showing faces, pretending. Just enough to get through to the next month, justify the salary enough, to service the utter crap they were consuming - netflix, phone contracts, company cars, massive mortgages - the list goes on.

I live opposite someone still in that life - he probably pities me, but he's a fool. I pity him trapped in his little rat race consumed by his obsession to one up the man next door.

Today I poured footings for an extension that someone was building on their house. A great conversation was had, bacon butties, coffee, and a totally unexpected £60 tip. I made a huge difference to this small families day today, they were so grateful - I was just doing my job.
I was buzzing by end of the day. Tomorrow it all happens again.

Just my thoughts and experiences.
I truly wish you all the best, I enjoy and value your posts OP.

*raises hand slowly*

Yup.

Over the past few months I have slowly come to realise things which have been put into words far better by others. I'm probably not OK and I should probably do something about it (other than mull it over a rum or three).

I think I will come back in a bit. Thankyou Kaiser for sharing.

The road of life is paved with flat squirrels who couldn’t make a decision.

That needs to go on a t-shirt!

Barkm - that's a really fascinating story. Did you intend to end up driving a cement lorry or was it a series of events that hot you to that point

Thank you CSB  someone understood the simple point I was making.

Nice story Barkm ..glad things got better for you and happy you "enjoy" my threads despite many recently being about the darker side of life (which many know little about until such things slowly become clearer or a reality or they think deeply ) Perhaps believing the fairy tales told by parents or priests can provide comfort but I personally have refined the negativity bias so I see the worst rather than best . It's not nice . I only said today to someone I wish I could market my skill at seeing what is wrong with things or what may happen . I am also an expert at catastrophising ..a common trait in ruminative depression and not fun . It also probably makes you not a nice person to be around ..I know that anyhow so isolate not just for myself but for others benefit although to be honest I rarely find people to be interested in anything more than small talk about family ,their latest acquisition or holiday so I benefit by avoiding them too!
My overthinking probably came from having a very colourful imagination . At school people would request the "Bill xxxxxx(my surname) show" as I could entertain them endlessly with stories/jokes,outrageous ideas ..the list goes on ..that bubbled up from within with no effort . When things got darker though the same process produced a distressing perspective together with cynicism, skepticism and a search for answers. I became sick of superficiality , small talk , being let down , misled etc and gradually got generally sick of people and society . It wasn't that I was any better either as I didn't particularly like myself ..I could see through my ability to turn a blind eye , ignore things etc which I knew weren't right . I was not strong enough to change and live better so had to accept I was ..like most people ..a ****ed up fallible human being . Whether I'm ****ed up because I think about reality too much rather than choose nice stories is debatable .
With much experience in overthinking I wouldn't recommend it ..it will probably make you ill eventually ,although one benefit is that I have often solved problems that have previously been given up on due to extended processing !
Meditation has helped ..in fact today a long mantra session quietened down the old grey matter and gave me a little rest . i have been doing such things for 30yrs to find the elusive "peace of mind "...my life's ambition but unlikely to be achieved .
Good talking with you all ..I wish you well and find these conversations far more rewarding than numerous sessions with a therapist charging £70 an hour which takes me a whole day to earn .
All the best
Bill

Kaiser I can relate to your experiences although I present myself slightly differently. But:

I only said today to someone I wish I could market my skill at seeing what is wrong with things or what may happen

This is a vital skill in my line of work as an IT architect. People (including myself) come up with ideas that sound great, and I have to think of every possible thing that could go wrong, every reason why it's the wrong approach, and mitigate that or change course.

A few years ago the company I work for rewrote some software, and at least one bad decision was made which had knock-on effects and resulted in large amounts of effort to re-write it again over several years, far more effort dealing with customers who found faults with it; and we lost a lot of good will and probably business too. If only we'd had someone the team who could've pointed out what was wrong!

Thanks op perhaps there are ok people here.I increasingly have had my doubts.
Anyway St Patrick’s day tomorrow so Paddy uisca for me and Polish mush hopefully!

Anseaneen you're most welcome.. have a drink or 50 for me!

No 50 they will beat me again!

(Polis farce here.)

Thanks for sharing Barkm.

Na problem absolute zero.

In short, I’d managed to accumulate enough ‘stuff’ to fill a 4 bed house and garage and came out mortgage free. I was made redundant at 53 in 2018 and decided enough was enough working with people I had little in common with. Suffered a stress-related illness in 2002 and had decided that ‘chasing success’ was not a healthy pursuit. A move to Scotland in 2020 and a simpler life - smaller house so less need for stuff. Biggest decision of the day usually involves the weather forecast and where to take the dog. My depression and anxiety at the time was heightened by the uncertainty of my situation - simply going with the flow really helps. Love the flattened squirrel analogy.

I ride my bike alone and enjoy the peace and solitude ..away from everyone and everything.

Cling to that. It's positive.

Thanks for starting this thread Kaiser. I'm sure it's helpful for many of us.

I'm a fair bit younger than you. There's history of suicide and mental health issues in every area of my family, as i'm sure there is in most families. I consider myself lucky to have experienced certain things at a young age - my sister's repeated attempts to take her life as a young teen for one.

I was always considered to be the glue of the family, easygoing, never stressed, doing well at school and sport. Nobody knew how preoccupied i was, always otherthinking every situation, rerunning every conversation from the previous day. Feeling weighed down by life. I was the stereotypical person that presents as happy enough on the outside but was actually deeply sad inside.

The odd thing was that my Mum, Step-Dad and sister were all Samaritans, but i never spoke to them.

One night when my Mum was away I reached a decision point, it would be less painful to end things. I didn't have the guts to go through with it. From that point on I went through cycles of depression for the next few years, through two Uni's (a new bunch of friends that wouldn't have known), a long-term relationship with a highly intelligent agoraphobic (her problems gave me a different focus to my own and someone that needed me), all the time with a mild drug addiction bouts of anhedonia and absolute fear of rejection.

Eventually I randomly met my future wife in a near-deserted youth hostel when we were both travelling alone. She loved the same things as me and changed the trajectory of my life, and while things aren't always perfect, I think that was the catalyst for me to recognise the cycles. As i'm getting older i'm actually getting better and better. If i dip i don't panic, i know it's momentary.

For me at least there was hope and I know now that there always will be. I made a pact with my wife to not live a boring life, so we never know what's around the corner.

Another lyric from the same Bob Marley song (among others) that I always think about:
"Every man thinketh his
Burden is the heaviest (heaviest)
Ya still mean it: Who feels it knows it, Lord"

Key to this was changing my relationship with stuff. I don’t need a new audi on the drive – nobody does. I don’t need to spend £50 on a kettle to boil water, £5k on a kitchen, £3k on bike, £500 on a device to scroll through shit on the internet. You do not need any of that.

absolutely spot on.
actually i think this is the point @tjagain had been pointing out earlier but getting criticised for? 🤷‍♂️

@tjagain i think you’ve been treated unfairly by a couple of posters here. I read your contribution as the framing of a fairly simple and largely accessible approach to contentment. There will always be folk who experience barriers to nature and the outdoors but that doesn’t detract from the potential for a whole range of people.

well said @csb. i also enjoy tj's input in threads and would welcome him back to the thread, his posts often resonate with me.

great thread, really thought-provoking.

Thanks op
TO misquote Jimmy Cliff
You can get it if you really want
But you Cean Tra Tra Tra.
Apologies.

Avoid comparisons, they'll make you discontent, make the most of what you have.

I think my life's great by my own standards, if I didn't I'd change it.

Acheivable objectives, people I'm happy with and sometimes I'm happy enough with my own company for a while.

Today for example, and even then there's you.

You're doing fine TJ, but people are making that comparison mistake rather than taking onboard some of your philosophy.

Accept where you are and make the most of it or do somthing about it and live with the good an bad that brings.

Wild camping for those of us in the SE is a high risk pastime and getting to it can prove "not cheap". Similarly our opportunities for solitude are limited at weekends due to the large numbers accessing the local countryside and the awareness of what is available close by since lockdown.
Making it work here requires a very early or late start.

I suspect that those in Moss Side and Handsworth will have a similar perspectives on getting out into the country before we take their income into account.

I wild camped and bouldered on sandstone crags near Tunbridge Wells having hitch hiked there from the Midlands.

By all means criticise western omni-capitalism, and reject it if you think that’s the way to a happier place, but understand that most of folks posting on here are doing so from a standard of living that a good number of folks are striving to even come close to

There's a lot of this on here. There's even loads of programmes about it on telly. "I was a stressed out banker and now I own 100 acres in Lapland where I hang out with my herd of reindeer". It must be nice to get off to such a flying start in life that you can simply decide to pack it all in half way through.

I wild camped and bouldered on sandstone crags near Tunbridge Wells having hitch hiked there from the Midlands

And did you start from Handsworth or a similarly deprived part of the Midlands? When one is focussed on financial survival buggering off for a jolly in the county is low on the list of priorities. Try exercising some empathy and humility from your ivory tower. (Speaking as one privileged, older, middle-class white male to another).

Dear me. Most of kids in the south Birmingham secondary modern I went to had bikes as good as if not better than mine. I was the only one who used it to explore and sleep under bridges when it rained.

You've chosen the wrong person to slag off as coming from a privileged middle class background. My father worked in a factory in Tyseley. Happily he had a workmate in a cycling club who on hearing about my solo adventures suggested I join his cycling club. The workmate knocked on our door one night and invited me along on the next club run. That changed the course of my life, along with a couple of good French teachers.

Plenty of wild camping options within falling-out-of-bed-distance of Handsworth, admittedly a bit noisy. And a whole load more within an hours bike ride along the canals

[img] [/img]

Sorry for assisting the thread derailment

At 26 I was fed up with my water scientist job, motorsport, Welsh weather, my girlfriend... so I cashed in my pension to pay off the credit card and got a job on a campsite in France cleaning caravans and entertaining kids.

That worked for me, it might not for you. I was quite happy cleaning other people's toilets.

The alternative is nihilism, which ends in the obliteration of the self when nothing matters

I like to think I've become something of an expert at nihilism. My mental trick is not to see myself as a pointless irrelevance in the enormity of the universe, but a curious observer who marvels at the complexity of it all. It sort of works, but it does result in a little too much detachment.

Or the other conclusion is hedonism.

I'm also very good at this. In fact if you use the right substances it can help with the above 😏

Nice post Reeksy ..love the Bob Marley quote also .

Do keep posting TJ ..I enjoy many of your contributions despite you ruffling the occasional feather (not mine btw) That'll always be the case as opinions are like arseholes ..everyone has one and many are full of xxxx.

I once smoked a spliff with Desmond Dekker but not Jimmy Cliff sadly

I feel it was worthwhile starting this thread ..please "gather ye all fellow seekers/oddballs/neurotics " keep your feelings and stories coming ..it's refreshing to hear you're not alone.

Let's try and have less conflict if possible because we all have more in common than what divides us (and being right isn't worth the effort imho .. all sides often have valid points )
As the Buddha said .. anger is like picking up a hot coal and throwing it at someone else... You always get burnt.

Agree and I apologise for stirring the pot. I find that sometimes we don't need advice we just need fellowship.

Not attacking anyone or complaining, the following is just an observation about how we differ

I mean, I like biking, but when I'm depressed the problem is that I don't enjoy biking. A lot of people post saying 'oh just go out on your bike'. For me, this just makes things worse, but on the other hand a lot of people appreciate it. So advice is a difficult thing. You don't know if people need it until you've tried to give it and either been thanked or shot down.

I personally don't like anything when at my lowest ..particularly experiencing being alive and feeling so shite all round but ..if I can somehow muster the will and energy ,a bike ride ..preferably with a few lung busters , it will improve how I feel and sometimes reset me although temporarily.
I nearly always am glad I went out after the exercise as the internal storm calms for a while .
Following the seeming interest in this thread I would like to cordially invite other fellow " oddballs, neurotics eccentrics , cast outs , mavericks ,drop outs ,cranks, bicycle tramps etc to meet up more often on here to discuss the reality of our lives rather than listen to the nonsense that we are fed by people who wish only to control or benefit from us.
Everyone not in that category is also welcome but personal conflict is to be avoided !
I like people who share their vulnerabilities ..it is actually a strength to be proud of and shows you are a human rather than a product of Instagram and the like.

Ultimately I’m left feeling empty by life.

This is how I've been feeling, increasingly so, for the last few years. I've endeavoured to live a good life, do what's right and be a decent friend, dad and husband, but have been left feeling somewhat empty and flat. I'm in no way religious but find thoughts turning to what may come after this life, if anything, and how it might reflect how one has lived. To possibly give this life purpose and an aim.

It's sadly reassuring to read that other people share a similar emptiness, and stops me questioning if it's purely down to me.

Very relatable subject matter, thanks for posting kaiser.

OP thats a very brave and honest write up, and i think we'd all be lieing if we said that life is amazing all the time.

I was similar to yourself, early to mid twenties, life and soul of the party, drunk every weekend and got out through the week whenever i could, i could literally go out on my own and bump into mates anywhere i went.

As i got older i realised i was running away from life, i lost my mum to cancer at 20 and hadnt dealt with it and was dealing with it by ignoring life.

Fast forward 18 years and i have few friends, dont socialise a lot and dont really see that many people outside of my family.
However the friends i have got are amazing so i dont need loads of them and im a bit of a loner.

The phrase happy with your lot in life springs to mind but its not even that, i dont think anyone has a "lot"

I still enjoy the odd night out but i dont need to do it every week or every day anymore, i dont need a lot of people i barely know, i need a few people i know very well.

Mental health is difficult - ive been through the lot - anxiety, depression, functioning alcoholic, but the other thing ive realised is that life is pretty mundane most of the time, with some low times and some good times but thats all normal.

Anyway thats my inner ramblings on the subject that together with a ticket will get you a ride on a bus. 🙂

My mental trick is not to see myself as a pointless irrelevance in the enormity of the universe, but a curious observer who marvels at the complexity of it all. It sort of works, but it does result in a little too much detachment.

+1

I just let life wash over me....

</I just let life wash over me….>

..if only I could do that ! Used to be able to ( after a bottle of spirits !)