Really interesting podcast on http://www.downtimepodcast.com/
worth a listen. Bought up lots of thing I hadn't considered.
Eighteen pages, three bans
We're off to a flying start with first reply.
"All lives matter" by post 9
I can hear two dejected sighs, one from the Lancashire valleys, one from the Northumberland wastelands...
Once more unto the breach, dear mods, you few, you happy few (well, not Drac, obvs), you band of brothers.
I rarely see anyone outside of white blokes our in the trails, is that racist, no, just an observation
Normally of the opinion that most of this is dross, that the main reason is that black people tend to live in cities, and that it's an expensive sport requiring loads of cash and an audi to get to the trails.
Then I read an account of a black climber who was living like a climbing bum in a van...and...yep....I could really see that for sure. White guy and his girlfriend sleeping (illegally) in their van, not causing any trouble.... no issue. Black dude sleeping in a rural place - locals call da police.
Oh yeah, that MUST be the reason.
Usual tosh, from the usual quarter.
I don't know if that is directed at me or the podcast subject or the podcast host.
If it's not a subject you are open to considering then you are welcome to ignore. I place it here to allow others who maybe interested and open to hearing people's opinions the opportunity to hear about this podcast.
I can hear two dejected sighs, one from the Lancashire valleys, one from the Northumberland wastelands
Sorry has this been done?
Normally of the opinion that most of this is dross, that the main reason is that black people tend to live in cities, and that it’s an expensive sport requiring loads of cash and an audi to get to the trails.
This point of view is considered and discussed.
Sorry has this been done?
Just the general theme. Nothing wrong with your topic but the pattern is well established.
It was a thread less to discuss the subject blindly but more to publicise and discuss the podcast.
Around here in Bolton, there is quite a large Indian and ****stan community, and before lockdown I have rarely seen families or Individuals out on the moors enjoying the scenery. During lockdown I have noticed more and more which is great to see in my opinion. Lots on bikes, lots walking.
I mentioned it on the Commencal WC bikes thread as they'd put BLM logos on their bikes which seemed disingenuous as surely it's incumbent on them to do something about it, not just protest. It does seem bizarre that teams seem unable to field a non-caucasian rider (and in the case of a lot of them it's all men too).
DH is (was?) massive in Japan, why no riders?
I don't know the reason, but I can't remember the last time I saw a black MTBer at the trails. Elliot Jackson is the only Black MTB Pro I know of.
I hope things will change, 10 years ago you almost never saw Women at Trail Centres, now whilst far from 50%, there are loads of female riders.
Around here in Bolton, there is quite a large Indian and ****stan community, and before lockdown I have rarely seen families or Individuals out on the moors enjoying the scenery. During lockdown I have noticed more and more which is great to see in my opinion. Lots on bikes, lots walking.
I'd noticed similar here round Derby and Nottingham. Maybe not "proper" mountain biking - to be fair, I don't do much of that myself any more - but noticeably more BAME people out in the countryside, walking, family friendly off road riding, and road riding. Great to see, and needs to be supported.
Saw a couple of women of South Asian origin - undoubtedly the wrong phrase - riding on a local track when I was out with a mate, and we both commented that we'd never have seen that even 2-3 years ago. Whether those communities are feeling more confident in themselves to go out and ride, or some of the barriers have been removed, I couldn't say. I know groups like Cycling UK are actively promoting diversity and showing more role models
Thanks for the link, I'll listen to it later.
I see at least one person has already made up their mind of course, why have a discussion when you can get angry at the title.
Around here in Bolton, there is quite a large Indian and ****stan community, and before lockdown I have rarely seen families or Individuals out on the moors enjoying the scenery. During lockdown I have noticed more and more which is great to see in my opinion.
I've definitely noticed this around Sheffield. Prior to lockdown I can't recall ever seeing Asian families about the peak, but it's fairly common at the moment. It may be that people's usual activities have been curtailed by Covid, but it's good to see.
I'm very aware that MTB is an obviously 'white' sport. Will listen to the podcast later. Thanks for the link.
Oh yeah, that MUST be the reason.
Usual tosh, from the usual quarter.
I have a simple question for you, why is this "tosh."
There's a huge prejudice against cycling in South Asian communities, which I think prevents a lot from taking up cycling. But racism exists in bike clubs same as everywhere; I used to ride with a club in Blackburn and I can remember two Asian lads who joined, came out for a few rides but were not made welcome by a couple of members so stopped coming.
When I was involved with Brecon National Park they had an initiative to actively reach out to the asian community in south wales, to encourage them into the Park. Folks that answered the call were often surprised to find the open spaces almost on their doorstep.
I recently rode the Sandstone Way and as we were just past St Cuthbert's Cave an asian family were making their way on foot up to it. I doubt one would have seen that twenty years ago.
Integration's a two way process.
Been seeing a few more non-white faces out on the trails in recent times, which is cool.
Will listen to the podcast, not only because I find Eliot Jackson's voice very relaxing, but because I'm genuinely interested to hear what he has to say on the issue.
I understand why some people bridle at talk of "racism" in MTB, when it's perhaps more a lack of inclusion as opposed to active exclusion - but this type of discussion isn't always going to be easy or comfortable.
I see your point, but for me its like if these people have these views I would rather they express them so they can be told they are racist and its not acceptable. Not being racist isn't enough these days we have to be anti racist.
I used to work in an office where I ,unusually , was the token white man. A lot of the black guys who worked there were into various sports but not cycling. I don't know if it was because they didn't see anybody like themselves in the sport or they simply weren't interested. One of the women who worked there who was of ****stani origin found all the campaigns to get BAME people in to the countryside hilarious. She said her parents came from a village and didn't see the country as a place for leisure. They associated the country , cycling and walking with poverty. I would think younger BAME people wouldn't have that cultural baggage so hopefully more can be done to encourage participation.
what is the TL;DL version?
what is the TL;DL version?
They said it was all your fault.
I’m very aware that MTB is an obviously ‘white’ sport.
Is it ?.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Mountain_Bike_Championships
Or MTB India.
https://www.townscript.com/e/mtbh20
Appears to be flourishing.
I do wonder though, if in either of these two championships, some bloke is saying " You know, i'm beginning to this this is a racist sport, I've only ever seen 2 white guys competing "
Some farmer shouted obscenities at me last month. I guess all farmers hate MTb.....OH NO, wait a sec.....
She said her parents came from a village and didn’t see the country as a place for leisure. They associated the country , cycling and walking with poverty.
I mean she was right though - young white adults (18-29) are lagging behind BAME employees in terms of pay partly because their white parents fled the cities.
It was a thread less to discuss the subject blindly but more to publicise and discuss the podcast.
Wait, you thought people would give it a listen before commenting????? 🤣
They said it was all your fault.
makes sense
I would think younger BAME people wouldn’t have that cultural baggage so hopefully more can be done to encourage participation
Everyone has their own reasons but read a good point by a black women about walking (and same point made on podcast) that many people didn't go into the country side as kids because their parents were so busy having just arrived in the UK. It's a bigger thing to do if you're not in the habit on top of not seeing people like yourself out there.
As I said not everyone who isn't white story is the same just as the story of every white person isn't the same but it's a good point.
They said it was all your fault.
No "they" didn't.
Is it ?.
Yes. Non whites are very very unrepresented in MTB.
Try the podcast, listen to some of the points made. You may not agree with all of it but there are solid counter arguments to all of the standard argument that "it's not a white sport" or 'there is nothing stopping "them' etc.
Go with an open mind and listen
Not sure of the question, as i don't think there is racism in mountain biking, there may be people with racist views, same as every walk of life with every ism being seen.
Through 20 odd years of doing this i don't see mountain biking in the way i've been involved as being racist, it's not exactly a closed environment that requires some kind of entrance criteria or acceptance, you buy a bike from any shop, get some skills, join a group via many forums (facebook, clubs, work, friends, etc, etc) and go out into the publicly accessible areas, you can ride alone, with a mate, or with a group.
The question as to why certain groups in society are under represented in this activity is a question for those groups, and it's a wider grouping than just a colour.
Not sure of the question
it wasn’t a question, it was the title of a podcast? Was my take home. Thanks OP, will give it a listen later.
Wait, you thought people would give it a listen before commenting?????
No but I did hope for a better level of decussion rather than having people get in flap before even openly considering the subject.
Living in South East asia for several years, I saw MTBs as more of a rich mans toy,(although becoming more popular in places), and dont forget, its damn hot mostly, so riding up mountains is a different story
And as FOG says, outdoors is seen as a poor mans place, with a lot of emphasis on paler skin seen as a status simple, which keeps people out of the sun. So I guess there are cultural taboos in place which dismiss the idea of mountain biking
That said, I have seen a lot more asians outdoors in parks here than before covid
We need more TheBricks on here.
Thanks for the link. The topic has come up around an event I'm involved with and it's as interesting as it is complicated, still at the listen/learn stage.
The question as to why certain groups in society are under represented in this activity is a question for those groups,
I think it's a question for us all? You're right that you and I as white middle aged blokes (I am anyway, I'm making an assumption about you there sorry) aren't able to answer it but you might look at brand marketing or events etc in a different way having heard some of the opinions and then we might see how we can help change happen where it's needed.
and it’s a wider grouping than just a colour
“Let’s talk about white people as well”
I’ll have a listen to the podcast…
So this is another non-story then?
Living in South East asia for several years, I saw MTBs as more of a rich mans toy,(although becoming more popular in places), and dont forget, its damn hot mostly, so riding up mountains is a different story
I saw more expensive roadbikes in a small area in Makati Manila than I've ever seen in London. The middle and upper classes in East Asia are a lot more outdoorsy than most people assume.
Maybe you idiots should go and actually ask some BAME riders if you thought there were issues, tactfully of course, there are plenty of BAME riders round Sheffield so it's not like they don't exist.
Maybe you idiots
Make a point not an insult it degrades any point you are trying to make.
Try a listen. The podcast is primarily aimed at North America / Europe.
I like some of the points made in the podcast, I aimed that at some others.
kelvin
Full Member
and it’s a wider grouping than just a colour“Let’s talk about white people as well”
I’ll have a listen to the podcast…
Posted 27 minutes ago
I actually meant that as within the black demographic you have sub-groups, to just ask at the higher level may miss out on certain answers, i.e. groups who have been born and raised in the UK, groups who are first generation UK, groups who live in cities, etc, etc. It just seems if you want to work out why, you need to know the many inputs, otherwise all you'll get is a generic answer to a generic question.
Is a lack of representation automatically racism ? I don't quite get that bit.
There may be reasons for it, but is racism always the cause.?
Dyna-ti
Is it ?.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Mountain_Bike_Championships
/a>Or MTB India.
https://www.townscript.com/e/mtbh20
/a>
I love that you posted a link to african mtb championships wiki. Just look at the race of all the people who have won the majority of them are white well done for proving your own point wrong. Im just gonna assume you haven't even listened to the podcast.
Anecdotally:
There's shedloads of Asian kids on bikes round here. It's not that they aren't riding, it's that they're riding differently from the MTBers. Trial bikes are hugely popular, you know the kind of thing where the top tube and the chainstay behind it is almost a straight line and the saddle is lower than the rear wheel. They* have taken over the local skate park and are busy getting big air on halfpipes, you don't see many boarders in there any more.
Of course, you could argue why aren't they mountain biking? Do they feel excluded, or are they happy that they've found their own thing?
(* - in anticipation of the Professionally Offended By Proxy turning up to point-score, by "they" here I mean trial bike riders.)
WOW Joe 😯
You went through them all....looking for just this sort of thing to throw back as an example
Not everybody Joe, but you confirm my point also, because mtb is flourishing worldwide.
What do they say in China Joe ?, that blokes not ethnic Chinese ?. Stretch out a pathetic argument.
Incidentally Joe, why haven't you referenced the Indian championships 😕
Will give that a listen as I always found his podcasts good.
There’s shedloads of Asian kids on bikes round here. It’s not that they aren’t riding, it’s that they’re riding differently from the MTBers. Trial bikes are hugely popular, you know the kind of thing where the top tube and the chainstay behind it is almost a straight line and the saddle is lower than the rear wheel. They* have taken over the local skate park and are busy getting big air on halfpipes, you don’t see many boarders in there any more.
Similar in Cardiff except it's more BMX and the Carrera Wheelie groups. Very rarely see them venture out of the skate parks or their local streets but they are out on bikes enjoying themselves.
Some here have argued that as there isn't racism within other countries MTB communitys so there isn't racism within the British MTB community. That's a fallacious argument and misconceived.
WOW Joe 😯
You went through them all….looking for just this sort of thing to throw back as an example
Not everybody Joe, but you confirm my point also, because mtb is flourishing worldwide.
What do they say in China Joe ?, that blokes not ethnic Chinese ?. Stretch out a pathetic argument.
Incidentally Joe, why haven’t you referenced the Indian championships 😕
I didn't go through them all half of them I knew and the others I just rolled over a name and saw a photo. I don't understand what two links to an African and Indian bike series does to prove there isn't any racism in cycling?
I didn't cite the Indian series because I didn't need to when half the people that have won the African one are white so totally disproves what ever point you're trying to make.
Mountain biking maybe "flourishing worldwide" but we need to look at why socially and culturally uptake of this sport is so low for BAME people and its likely because of systemic racist structures within our society. I know its an uncomfortable topic and the idea of you thinking you could have racist thoughts isn't nice but we need to recognise learn and correct them.
I don't expect you to get it, its a complex issue and I don't fully get it either. Im just trying to educate myself and try and understand other peoples experiences.
I've never noticed any racism in mountain biking. A lack of representation maybe but not racism, having said that I have seen a few non white faces in PMBA events. I can't really think of a reason for the lack of representation, maybe a cultural thing in that you are more likely to take it up if you have some mates that are into it. I suppose if you are non white then it would be easy to perceive it as a white only sport from looking at magazines etc. Incidentaly, one of my best MTBing and drinking mates is non white.
I don’t expect you to get it, its a complex issue and I don’t fully get it either. Im just trying to educate myself and try and understand other peoples experiences.
I don’t get it either, lots to learn. I understand even less those that think there is no issue, and have nothing to learn, because they “haven’t seen any problems”.
I don’t expect you to get it,
Yup, I always find the best way to engage people is to be patronising.
Mountain biking maybe “flourishing worldwide” but we need to look at why socially and culturally uptake of this sport is so low for BAME people
It's not actually a sport for the majority of people in the UK, it's a leisure activity.
Why do we 'need' to look at it in this way?
Different leisure activities attract different people at different times in their lives. Lumping all BAME people together and asking why are you not mountain biking is as insulting as asking why all white people don't go skiing.
That's a bit of a cop out. There is under representation in mountainbiking as there is in most other outdoor activities. But is that just due to conceptions and attitudes within those communities? If there is negative pressure from the majority community, well that should be addressed. I well remember a BAME biker that couldn't get served in South London. White guys would have to get the parts from the shops for him. Has that attitude completely disappeared?
I don’t expect you to get it,
Yup, I always find the best way to engage people is to be patronising.
Yup, and i always find the best way to engage people is to also misquote them too. The full quote is "I don’t expect you to get it, its a complex issue and I don’t fully get it either. Im just trying to educate myself and try and understand other peoples experiences."
cloggy
I well remember a BAME biker that couldn’t get served in South London. White guys would have to get the parts from the shops for him. Has that attitude completely disappeared?
I sincerely hope so!
why have a discussion when you can get angry at the title.
You must be new here....?
Hey,
I know people here are super-cool, and 99.9% of people I meet on the bike are too.
But.
There are a small minority of people who make it ****ing shite.
Being told there is nothing to sell in a shop, having drinks poured over, whispered "get the **** out of here you ****", having the police called for biviying somewhere out-of-sight, bike clubs...
I'll happily take any ribbing or abuse on the chin (brummie, council house boy), but words which make you question your right to exist are ... painful. So I mostly bimble about on my own or with the children and find great joy in just messing about on bikes away from other people.
We all get grief for many things (class, gender, wheel size), don't feel that speaking about one form of discrimination diminishes any others or is a personal attack on you (unless your _that_ bellend).
Mountain biking maybe “flourishing worldwide” but we need to look at why socially and culturally uptake of this sport is so low for BAME people and its likely because of systemic racist structures within our society.
how about we start saying people rather than BAME people. That pisses my friend right off - lets try and stop segregating by segregating.
Maybe some people are just not interested in it or not close to facilities or have transport or can afford it.
Whether you think mountain biking 'is racist', have a look around you and think on what it looks like. It's always looked like male, middle aged middle class and white to me, and I'm right in that demographic.
So why is that? Some great points raised on here that got me thinking more. I'm now in the US and It's been great to see more Latin and African American faces on the trails, but that has been very recent.
It's a question we'll probably never answer properly, but it is something we've all thought at some point, not due to racism, but due to the reasoning as to why certain demographics are under represented still, i remember back to the early 2000s, seeing a woman on the tracks was a rarity, now they are well represented from what i see, same with kids, lots out there, a lot of this is to do with the changes in things like trail centres, accessibility and so on, but personally, i can't get my head round why BAME is still under represented, and again, as stated earlier, that's because i just don't have the knowledge or understanding.
Cheers OP, that was really interesting and well worth a listen. Covers a lot of the points on here, some pretty thought provoking content and a positive message.
It’s not actually a sport for the majority of people in the UK, it’s a leisure activity.
Why do we ‘need’ to look at it in this way?
The women in MTB point came up a lot as well. Surely everyone here loves mtb and recognises it as a wonderful thing. Isn't it just trying to understand why some parts of society aren't involved and trying to see if that can change. Then we can sell more e-bikes to people 😉
Different leisure activities attract different people at different times in their lives. Lumping all BAME people together and asking why are you not mountain biking is as insulting as asking why all white people don’t go skiing.
Yep, there was a bit of that being ridiculed in the podcast! But also some interesting opinions about why there might be much lower levels of interest. As I say, if you have some time it's worth listening to.
but personally, i can’t get my head round why BAME is still under represented, and again, as stated earlier, that’s because i just don’t have the knowledge or understanding.
Ah, if only there was a friendly discussion on easily accessible media that could help with that 😉
It’s always looked like male, middle aged middle class and white to me, and I’m right in that demographic.
Going to have to call that out as rubbish, sorry. I see a fair mix or male, female young old moneyed and not so moneyed.
Mostly white, yes but not exclusively but mostly.
Why is that ? I don't know. Mountainbiking attracts fairly modern forward thinking folk and I don't see racism.
It's easy to say that white folk exclude others but I imagine some parts of the community can be very insular and not want to take part in something which is not culturally normal for them.
I'm in Scotland where the mix is very different to , say , the Midlands , so you would expect the sport to be mainly white. Doesn't make Scottish cyclists racist or exclusive.
Even on Zwift you don't see many black riders oddly.
On Zwift you can change your skin colour etc to preference.
No idea what the above means, pure observation.
I've always thought of biking as pretty inclusive but it's never a bad thing to question that reality.
It’s easy to say that white folk exclude others but I imagine some parts of the community can be very insular and not want to take part in something which is not culturally normal for them.
There wasn't a massive amount of talking about explicit exclusion. Which rings true for me in my experiences. Definitely a lot about what might push people away from biking or not consider it in the first place. And how (more the industry really) can engage differently with different people. MTB felt like a male sport when I started and that's definitely changed for the better. Think it's probably a similar journey.
Black people arent into biking because the myth that white men can't jump has been busted 😊.
Seriously though if mountain biking isnt of interest for whatever reason, culturally or just not cool enough then it's hardly the fault of mountain biking, nobody's putting up barriers. My biking mate is mixed race, non of his black friends and family are interested, it's a weird one and from my experience nothing to do with racism.
I don’t understand what two links to an African and Indian bike series does to prove there isn’t any racists in cycling?
Amended that for you.
Yes yes, some people are racist, we've long established that. Does not mean the sport itself is racist, that argument is completely illogical, and it appears you'd argue anything and everything has a racist element to it.
This is a predominantly white country. Is the percentage too skewed ?
So what is that percentage Joe, and how is it skewed.
Of the population, X number are white, X number are black, brown or whatever.
Then you want us to correlate that minority against what you must consider to be the average number of not cyclists, but specifically mountain bikers.
Seriously though if mountain biking isnt of interest for whatever reason, culturally or just not cool enough then it’s hardly the fault of mountain biking
You know that thing where you bang on at whoever will listen about how ace biking is? And you drag a few people in and they finally get it and it feels like you've made their world a better place?
Think it's like that. And really it's beneficial to the mtb community (again, probably most beneficial to the "business" side, but that trickles down) to be cooler and culturally relevant to more people.
love it
there is obvious under representation of non white folk at all levels in all types of cycling and here we have a bunch of white men ( mainly?) pontificating as to why!
dyna-ti
Of the population, X number are white, X number are black, brown or whatever.
Then you want us to correlate that minority against what you must consider to be the average number of not cyclists, but specifically mountain bikers
This^^! Lets face it, as mountain bikers we are in a relative minority of society as a whole. If non white mtbers are few and far between, is that not just a reflection of society in general?
Heads up to save others faffing - just listening in to the OP podcast and the discussion begins at 5min 15secs in.
My post earlier was poorly worded, to clarify - my opinion is that people should take note of Kullys post.
Let’s forget the outright abuse for a minute (which is completely unacceptable) and focus on the greyer area.....I’d feel pretty uncomfortable getting my cock out in a Japanese Onsen because I’d probably be the only white dude there. However having some slightly mental Japanese friends, I probably would.
The same applies to a lot of social situations, it’s easy to feel like an outsider and even easier to do encourage someone who is an outsider to take part with a bit of friendly encouragement and understanding. Integration does work both ways but the biggest hurdle is making someone from another culture or someone who feels that they stand out - feel comfortable in your cultural setting.
there is obvious under representation of non white folk at all levels in all types of cycling and here we have a bunch of white men ( mainly?) pontificating as to why!
If we don't pontificate about it then chances are we'll ignore it and not seek to help improve the situation if that is what is required. Debate is good.
FWIW there's a very similar discussion being held on the Bearbones forum. Not instigated by this podcast however and not just focussing on racial minorities.
This^^! Lets face it, as mountain bikers we are in a relative minority of society as a whole. If non white mtbers are few and far between, is that not just a reflection of society in general?
Basically no. Apparently 15% of the UK population are "non-white", across all the different cycling niches I participate in and follow, I honestly don't believe 15% of those taking part are people of colour. Nevermind the proportion of female participation, 51% of the UK population are female, there's no way you can claim half of all cyclists are women...
Unfortunately you can't claim it's a "reflection of wider society", something about cycling in general makes it less appealing to non-white, non-male people. It may well be that the presentation of current cycling cultures all too accurately reflects it's existing composition.
If you come from a community that historically hasn’t fared well when dealing with groups of white men, I can understand why, despite the actual activity looking fun, you might well be put off...
Scotroutes - in one way I agree but given the direction of similar topics on here in the past its just funny
Maybe some people are just not interested in it or not close to facilities or have transport or can afford it.
But that’s the reason to look into social inequality, not to dismiss it.
If the barriers to participation in anything are lack of money, lack of transport and/or lack of access, and those factors correlate with a lack of participation from any demographic, then that tells you that the demographic in question is most likely significantly disadvantaged in terms of money, mobility and/or opportunity.
And that’s where social equality—racial or otherwise—bites.
DH is (was?) massive in Japan, why no riders?
A friend of a friend dated a guy who was Japanese national DH champ three years running about 20 years ago. He did some WC races, finished around 50th place from what I remember. He said that the WC courses were much faster with much bigger jumps than what he was used to and he wasn't as physically strong as the top guys so struggled to muscle the bike around. He'd started out as an XC racer for a major brand, but switched to DH when he realized that he was more competitive at that. That doesn't mean that there aren't big, strong guys in Japan, but MTB is a niche sport so promising athletes would probably be steered towards baseball, football, or rugby by high-school coaches because that's where the money's at.
I was friends with a Muslim man and helped him buy a specialised mtb. Took him for a ride and he thought we were just going on the road.he reluctantly went offroad a bit but said he never wanted to go again. Its was something about his religion which looked down on getting muddy and mixed with dirt.being near dirt scared him.not sure exactly what so excuse my ignorance.he still rides the bike on road years later so thats good.i understand that for young asians bikes are looked down upon as a form of transport you have to ride if you haven't made and if you ride a bike you cannot afford car.this I found out after chatting to many asians.ivusedcto go riding with a black person or person of colour.he was a great rider very strong with good endurance and a great guy.really into his biking too.pretty sure he has mever experienced racism in biking.people choose to do what they are interested in and drawn towards.
Perhaps we should look at ourselves? Maybe there is just something a bit weird about a relatively small group of white males who find an attraction to riding bikes through mud and slop. Most of my white male friends and colleagues think I am stupid for doing it and I barely know any women who have even the slightest interest.
