[Closed] Pentlands Hillend Mtb development. ?

OOh I didn't know about that, sounds good. I was thinking with the proposed investment in Hillend ski centre it would be good to make a proper stab at a biking centre, as there is a decent enough height different twixt the ski centre and the top of the hill. Getting it through planning would require a serious investment and a lot of work though, and I would be very surprised if anyone could do it given the costs of making it happen.

there was a little downhill track at the side of Hillend ski slope but I take It It was scrapped due to Erosion.

I think it was cos of the lift - they had to stop the chair to get the bikes on, and it always used to proper piss off the skiers.

There's been renewed muttering but I haven't seen anything solid.

Back at the start of the year when i got laid off I thought about having a stab at it myself but I couldn't see it being profitable... But councils have a different remit to private companies so that doesn't mean it can't happen. (Most bike venues aren't profitable in themselves)

I helped construct the original track which ran to the left of the elbow of Hillend ski slope. Dont know what the situation is now though!

Sounds good! 😀

There was mention of some redevelopment of MTB facilities, but given that plans for the site have just been published and they don't include bikes I reckon it has been kicked into the long grass.

I really think you could get make some excellent trails, its really steep at the top from Caerketton, a nice wooded section through the T Woods, skids on the golf course greens and big jumps over the bunkers...if I win the lottery I'll come up with a proposal...

That would be outstanding if it got some traction - truly excellent location for a bike park development in terms of access. It's not Whistler, but you've got some altitude to work with, and with the ski centre in situ you've mitigated the environmental impact somewhat.

Just need to get the pitch polished up for the venture capitalists, wee European grant for fat-fighting and we're all set. Anyone know if the ski centre makes money?

It was making a half a million quid a year loss I think!

Wasn't hillend going to go bust only a year or so ago. Put it this way, never seen it even remotely busy. Id have thought that the current owners would be desperate for a bit of extra revenue. Plus you would think it would be more profitable than somewhere like glentress simply because they'd make the money from the uplift service.

Not convinced it would be all that long if it went from the top of the chair lift though, I'm assuming you'd still need to hike up the hill a fair bit...

Half a million loss pa - Is the ski centre a reasonably-sized operation then? I've never been - would have thought you'd just need to switch the chair lift on and pay a few gadges to collect tickets, work the bar etc.

tpbiker That was my thoughts as well , get the lift to the top then make a switchback climb to the top and downhill track back down . Surely there are more bikers than skiers willing to pay for an uplift and feed there bellies in the cafe.

GT only down the road and look how busy that is.. Inners trying to get a chairlift on the go..
Surely this could have potential? Like someone above says, a further switchback climb to thetop and it would be a decent descent.. Would prob need to take up a bit of room as it zig zags down the hill though, is the land available?

trouble is isn't it run by snow sport scotland, so they'd probably rather it go to the dogs that see their prized possession overrun by rowdy kids on 9 inch full bouncers every weekend..

Would be great fun however, I'd pay!

Garry Lager, Its a pretty decent sized place, must need quite a few salaries to support it, and the leccy bill must be pretty chunky for the lifts and floodlights! I've seen it busy to the point you can't get on, but also its dead most of the time. Also I don't know who the landowner is but the rent could be pretty steep. The military own quite a bit of the pentlands, not sure if they own that bit.

I think in reality making 'commercial' bike tracks from top to bottom would be a real challenge to get through planning and would take a lot of consultancy fees, but you could play the nevis range/glencoe card and pitch it well in that context i reckon.

Suppose if the land is owned by HMFs might be easier to get planning??

So basically there Is half a decent uplift there already and If im not mistaken have a trail running from the top of the hill to the East you have some woods , make a run heading back west to the cafe and you could have a fairly decent downhill trail. Also Its a fairly easy cycle from the centre of Edinburgh . Time to get behind this Fb group.

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Im also fairly sure some of the trail builders of local DH stuff like Carberry and Bonaly would muck In to save costs.

it's like a mini Inners chairlift thread. but no less hilarious or indeed any more likely to happen.

rode the previous "DH" track when I lived up there. no offence to hopefiendboy and those that got off their arses to build it, but it wasn't very good.

lack
of
vertical
.

Maybe so Proteus but there Is no harm In trying , some of the best Downhill tracks don't really have much vertical height. Just because someone has built a trail in the past that didn't excite dosent mean It couldn't be improved in the future. Look at the height drop in something like Berm baby Berm at Gt , Its not that much maybe 70mtrs at most but If you stand at the bottom you will fail to see anyone who dosent exit with a smile.

proteus - the difference being the chairlift is already there. room to build a couple of different lines Numbers needed to make a profit would b low.

proteus - Member

lack
of
vertical

345 foot, which I think is more or less the same as the FOD uplift and UK Bike Park? Not drastically less than Hamsterly or Blandford apparently. Or if you prefer, about twice the height of Laggan's uplift.

stanfree - Member

Look at the height drop in something like Berm baby Berm at Gt , Its not that much maybe 70mtrs at most

Almost bang on 30 metres according to the OS map! Uncanny really.

Well put Northwind - reckon a free ride route would work there? Something to wean the kids off the Nibbler? Speaking of which, what is the height of that trail for comparison? Must be pretty similar...

Not sure exactly where on the map the top of the nibbler is, but if you take the absolute highest point of the hillside it's on, then it's about 350 feet down to the wee bridge over the stream.

So anyway... Like I say, I don't think it'd be likely to be commercially viable, but then lots of things like this aren't. Could it be a goer as a subsidy-magnet? A small year-round running profit that makes Hillend's lift system look less like a white elephant? Unsure. It'd need a pretty full-on approach, half-assing it would just fail again- it's got to attract decent numbers, and decent replay, so that means multiple quality trails to appeal to multiple user groups.

given that the chairlift is already in place and running then addition cost are not high. a fair amount of capital to build the trails ( even using volunteer labour) then up keep would not be a lot. Uplift prices would have to be fairly low to get the custom.

You could get 1/4 - 1/2 mile trails in surely looking at the map - three side by side blue red black with the black able to be used for DH racing

^^sounds good^^!

I read that the Fairmilehead Inn was under new ownership and was going to be developed as an outdoor centre for the Pentlands. Wouldn't harm the MTB cause but a strange choice given its location on the other side of the bypass.

I also heard a rumour that the guy who owns Lothianburn golf course was looking at developing it for MTB riding, which if[i] true would make the Hillend option a much more viable proposition.

Just spoke to hill end on the phone and they are very interested in some kind of trail development.

Are any of the riders on here interested in getting involved with developing the trails/centre?

What I'm thinking of as a starting point is some simple trails and a mini bus with trailer from the main road upto the ski centre then from the ski centre upto the top via the lifts.

There is a building at the bottom of the hill that would be perfect for a small bikeshop/rest spot and all of the rest of the facilities are there!

What are you saying to it STW, do you want to get intvolved in making this happen?

erm, yeah kaesae the game is afoot. All you need is financiers, volunteers, capital, a pricing structure, a business plan, market research, constructors and most importantly a user base....

proteus has a point, inners Mk2 this. If they ever needed confirmation nothing will happen at inners they can look at this in 4 years and see that nothing has happened even though the lift is already there.

Who set up the facebook page? It seems to have fizzled out already. It would take a heck of a lot more than that to show the support and benefit of such a scheme anyway.

I would imagine that, assuming interest and cooperation by all concerned parties, by the time the scheme was designed and put to planning, with consultancy fees and all, it would be a six figure cost to get that far. There would be a lot of opposition in terms of landscape and visual impact alone, and the Friends of the Pentlands would literally explode at the thought of kids messing up their hills hooning around on bikes.

kaesae is the new TJ

How about we think out side of the box for a second here!
No point in making things too complexed with fuddy duddery!

All we need is a lift from the bottom of the hill to the top of the hill, then we ride our bikes back down 😉

Friend of the Pentlands on hearing of this :

[img] [/img]

Not sure if that pic will work. Big trouble in little china exploding dude anyway, if it doesn't.

I do think it is a great idea, but would take a huge amount of work.

The main road to ski building isn't far or that steep...can people not ride to it? If so, you have saved a whack of cost as you won't need transport there.

Sounds good but the trails would need to be built properly I.e. designed to keep you coming back, easily maintained, not requiring a huge amount of extnalmaterial shipped in (keeps costs down) and it needs to fit alongside everything else going on there.

I think this has more potential than innerleithen's chairlift idea, but it's going to be an uphill struggle for whoever steps up to do it.

bigjim here's some advice mate, focus on the solution not on the problem.

What ever natural features are there we simply enhance them and start of with some simple trails, if the uplift and trails are popular then we expand on it, if not it doesn't work.

But all it would cost for a mini bus and trailer is about £5,000, this will take care of the DH riders, with the support of MTB'ers to build some simple trails we can have a go at this.

Have you ridden there Kaesae? There's really nothing there in terms of trails atm - you'd be riding down a piss-boring grassy slope. Would require loads of trail building (also need a decent path up to the top as the chair lift goes about 2/3 of the way).

So it's obv pretty speculative as has been stated. Nowhere near as big a stretch as the Innerleithen chairlift would be, that's a terrible comparison tbh.

Yes I've been a few times, but it has to start somewhere, making some simple trails and having a go on them will be the best way to get an idea of what needs to be done to move forward.

If this is going to get started it needs to be simple and inexpensive.
There are loads of features that could be made with wood and other recycled materials.

I'm sure if enough people will pitch in something can be done!

I heard that the field at the back of the petrol station on the main road was going to be used for a "family friendly" bike facility - I don't know what that would look like. I was told by someone who works at Swanston. Might just have been an idea though - conversation happened at a christmas party.

From what I heard is that the council has already been approached about this possibility by 2 people who are very experienced in running a mtb business and have been told that the council wants to concentrate on the skiing side of things for the foreseeable future.

Wonder if anything came of this?
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/edinburgh-mtb-survey

From what I heard is that the council has already been approached about this possibility by 2 people who are very experienced in running a mtb business and have been told that the council wants to concentrate on the skiing side of things for the foreseeable future.

Lots of rumours but this is the one I have also heard.

kaesae - one does not simply walk into the pentlands and start building trails on someone's land. No one is going to allow anything to happen without it all being very organised, legal and consented, not least the landowner and the pentland hills regional park, who manage the park. Any kind of path network would have to be fully agreed on by all stakeholders and things like erosion management would be a priority in somewhere like the pentlands.

I'm not being negative, I think the whole thing would be brilliant, but it isn't just a case of turning up wiht a spade. To get an idea of how difficult it can be, look at the struggle Balerno community council have had trying to get a simple footpath link from Balerno to the pentlands built. People going in gung-ho will just make things worse, it needs to be a coordinate and professional approach to be successful.

Actual bike chairlift - takes you and your bike to the top of the hill

Proposed bike chairlift - takes people to Dreamy Dream Land...

focus on the solution not on the problem.

kaesae, bit of advice mate, focus on living in the real world and not recycling glib statements?

As BigJim suggests, simply turning up with a spade and hacking out a trail will do nobody any favours.

Additionally, actually galvanizing others from an internet forum to follow suit is hopeless. people will always agree its a good idea when sitting in their cosy office bashing a keyboard to bits, but ask them to put any cash up front or expend significant effort and they melt like snow off a dyke. The inners chairlift thread is a perfect example of this.

not knocking the idea by any means but simply firing a couple of glib motivational statements on a forum thread wont make it happen.

bigjim, I have heard this from those 2 people personally, so I think this is where it is at. Or was 2 months or so ago, don't know if anything has changed in the meantime.

2 people who are very experienced in running a mtb business

Yes Tracy and Emma were interested and still might be, all I know is there's a hill over there with lots of potential and I need some exercise.

Digging, hammering, other building stuff + fresh air and great views = fun.

Will it work? who gives a **** ! if it's a choice between the above mentioned exercise and doing something constructive for the mtb culture, or listening to arguing with and generally suffering the self important, hypercritical wind bags on this forum.

I know what I'll be doing, no offence is meant to any of the actual riders on stw.

Davidrussel I am not your mate, however if you're looking for one, may I suggest a cross between a baboon and a weasel, would be a good match for you!

Difference between this and the Inners project is that some folk in Inners are actually doing something about it.

I'm sure bigjim isn't your mate either - I was paraphrasing.

no matter, childish insults defeat reasoned points yet again on STW.

stevenmenmuir - Member

Difference between this and the Inners project is that some folk in Inners are actually doing something about it.

I'm sure Kaesae isn't suggesting starting digging without any kind of permission. That after all would be pretty stupid. Just suggesting that if and when permission is granted, people get stuck in and lend a hand.

I wasn't suggesting we get into a discussion about [b][i]ALL[/i][/b] the differences between Inners and the Pentlands. 🙄

Only tens of thousands? Good luck there then...

It is back of the couch stuff for hillend though, totally different story to Innerleithen. The regulatory / environmental / shared vision stuff would be bigger challenges then actually financing the trail build.

Interesting discussion. I'm struggling to see the similarity with inners, given as many have pointed out there is already a lift in place that is barely used.

Yes there are huge logisitical elements to overcome, but I've seen more extravegant uses of the public purse before, and it would undoubtably be attractive from a tourism perspective if done right. Lets not forget Biking is a boom sport, that people in power appear to be getting behind. For that reason theres probably never been a better time to push the issue, especially given hillends current finances.

I guess the key question is has anyone on here even got the faintest idea how to even go about making formal enquiries, usefull contacts etc etc. If it was just a bunch of folks on a forum spouting off I agree it wouldn't go far, but if someone spent a bit of time coming up with a suitable proposal then you never know, stranger things have happened!

And if it did move forward, I'd defo help out...got a spade in my dads shed just itching to be used!

Some facts:
The land at Hillend belongs to Midlothian Council.
The development plans already announced include a further ski slope to the East of the current one and a larger nursery area with added space for some "free-skiing".

Any MTB route would therefore have to be further west. I don't have the land-ownership details with me at the moment, but I think that would fall outwith Hillend Country Park.

The site of the Fairmile head Inn has been sold and is to be flattened and a large outdoor/bike shop built. They will do all the ski tech stuff for the ski centre apparently. My friend involved said that there was plans to do something MTB related with one of the golf courses below Hillend, more likely pump track rather than DH was the impression I got.

Another friend who is heavily involved in the Scottish Water pipeline just the other side of the A702, said one of the major land owners has all sorts of pie in the sky ideas for lifts up to the top of Allemuir!!

Would love to see a bit of MTB development around there, lots of potential, would be quite interesting to see if they tried to link over to the Pentlands proper, no really easy way up and over, even with the chairlift.

I think Druidh is right about land ownership west of the ski area - thats a golf course ATM is it not? Looks like there might be a bit of land but not much that could be used to the west. could bike trails go further east of the ski areas even the new developments?

DickBarton - Member

Only tens of thousands? Good luck there then...

druidh do you have a link to the development plan and what's the point of developing something that isn't even popular 😆

Not that I'm saying they wouldn't do something that stupid, but it seems a bit pointless, a bit like the make over the museum saw, a lot of money a lot of hoohaa but in 5 years time, it will more likely than not be forgotten.

Anyway back the the development plans, any links?

I'm actually away from home for a couple of days - I'll see what I can dig out when I get back home.

I guess the key question is has anyone on here even got the faintest idea how to even go about making formal enquiries, usefull contacts etc etc. If it was just a bunch of folks on a forum spouting off I agree it wouldn't go far, but if someone spent a bit of time coming up with a suitable proposal then you never know, stranger things have happened!

Well, it would need a planner or thereabouts (I'm not a planner btw) to identify the way forward really, or someone with an understanding of the development process and how to create the project and take it to submission. In my last job (environmental consultancy) I worked on the edinburgh core paths plan, and project managed the last 6 months or so. We also tendered for some work with the PHRP to identify improvements to access points for non-motorised users, and scope out a work schedule to implement them, but at the fee rates of the company I worked for we couldn't meet the scope of work for the money available (low 5 figures).

This is why I keep prattling on about the money required for a task such as this, I don't think most people realise quite how much it costs for even simple development projects to be realised. Unless you have post of cash sitting about, you'll have to build a very good business case to acquire this kind of money through banks up front, and I'm not sure if there are many sources of grant money that would be relevant and willing to stump up the wonga, I reckon you could get the odd grant here and there but I just don't know.

Briefly off the top of my head and in no order, I think you would roughly have to:

-Form a cohesive identifiable group/organisation, with a working structure, ie not a bunch of strangers arguing on the internet and randomly phoning the ski centre/phrp
-Identify and specify the project outline, ie what you are proposing, creating tracks down the hill to integrate with the existing/proposed Hillend ski centre infrastructure
-Identify what you need to do in the legal framework and in relation to landowners and stakeholders
-Prepare a scope of work to realise the project from inception to completion, with a timeline
-Allocate the work packages to the relevant parties for completion, ie tender to consultancy/ies, produce in house if you have the knowledge and skills and time inhouse
-Manage the project in a professional way that will ensure you are taken seriously and able to take it seriously when it does get serious, eg dealing with representations from objectors.
-Liase continuously with all stakeholders throughout the lifetime of the project as required, manage budgets and consultants,
-Once it is built, make sure you make all the money back, and then there is the maintenance of the trails and business admin side. Whether this would be taken on by the council as part of the ski centre operation or what, who knows.

But, I'm just guessing, so could be way off the mark, like I said, I'm not a planner.

If I win the lottery I'll do it though...

There are a couple of meetings coming up in Inners for the uplift, pop along to see the plans and speak to the people behind it, get some idea of what's involved etc. Sunday 19th of Feb 10am-3pm, Wednesday 22nd 5pm-8pm, both at the Memorial Hall.

Cheers druidh!

There is a resource that could easily be adapted to benefit our way of life and culture, there is also a chance we, that is to say mountain bikers could have a say and some involvement in how it's run.

It may come to nothing but I for one am going to do some digging and see if there is any chance of development.

Surely it makes more sense in terms of sustainability and development to invest in what ever group is making the most amount of noise about access.

There is room for plenty to be done on that hill if we are innovative and make the most of what's there, the potential is amazing, north shore, practice tracks for cornering, jumping, dropping, a 4x track and pump track.

It would not cost too much to put this together and if you look at the success of transgression park for BMX'ers, the potential for a small MTB park right on our door step is very real ❓ I don't give a shit what anyone says, I'm havin a go at this.

>Well, it would need a planner or thereabouts<

Phuk thats the last thing it needs 😉

And the existing chairlift is a bag of nuts - faggetit...

These things are achieved on a level way above FB pages, petitions et al. If you are on here trying to sell it to a bunch of stw jocks then by definition you arent even at the table.

Bigjim gives an insight into what's involved so respect to anyone thats prepared to go for it but be prepared to put your life on hold for 5years +

Atta girl kaesae, you fill your boots. I'll make a diary note to revisit this thread in a year to see what's been done. I'm a betting man though so I'll back my horse the now. Bugger all will have happened and nobody from here will have done anything about it other than occasionally bang on about how great an idea it is, and all we need to make 10 4x tracks and a wc dh course is this and that blah blah.

Besides, I'm sure the council must be setting off your conspiradar? They are all in it together you know. Thank the lord you ain't trying to deal with fcs...

David - you might be right buts its worth having a go - I am quite happy to help kaesae out in seeing what can be done. Maybe nowt but you never know

I think the first step really is to come at it as an organisation of some kind with a cohesive aim and structure. A group of enthusiasts will be able to raise a relative amount of awareness of interest, but to really get things moving you would really have to be acting as one group with formalised points of contact, with a plan (including potential budget sources, money is king) already together before you start consulting stakeholders like PHRP and midlothian council.

An occasional trickle of queries and suggestions to the PHRP or council from interested individuals probably won't achieve anything, they have too much to do and too little money already. I'm not sure if there are existing organisations such as IMBA that could be persuaded to take a lead, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to set up a workable organisation aimed directly at this project. It would take a lot of time and effort, and I fear would be a case of herding cats. If something was set up and it fizzled out or became a bickering group of poorly organised enthusiasts I would say it could do more harm than good in the long run, could end up being seen as having wasted people's time and having blown your chance. But on the other hand, someone out there might have the time, knowledge and patience to take the lead! I do have a good working relationship with the manager of the PHRP from our previous roles, but I don't have the time or knowledge to take much action, and I wouldn't want to waste his time. Having said all that I guess having an informal chat off the back of the Pentland trail repair work organised by Jeremy et al could at least give an indication of what would be required to gauge the feasibility of it all, to inform interested parties of the next steps.

Bigjim gives an insight into what's involved so respect to anyone thats prepared to go for it but be prepared to put your life on hold for 5years +

Thats all we can do now / first step - informal enquiries to see if there is any chance at all / any point in putting time and effort in to it.

The first thing I'd suggest would be to contact Midlothian Council to find out why MTB wasn't considered for the current expansion. That would identify the stumbling block.

Found this;
http://www.midlothian.gov.uk/news/article/285/artists_impression_of_development_plans_at_midlothian_snowsports_centre
I'm pretty sure that the tree belt on the right of the picture is the Westernmost extent of the CP.

I think your are right from looking on google earth- however that would still leave room to the east for tracks from that pic and again from looking on google there is a bit of room in that belt of trees.

The most depressing thing about it all is that I wasn't aware the council were planning to throw even more money at an under used and outdated ski centre. Would be interested to know why they think its suddenly going to fill up with people if they add an extra run?? Besides the fact it has a surface not even slightly resembling snow, its flippin dangerous, went once on my board and snapped my finger in that horrible matting...

Used to be an injury called hillend thumb apparently.. Must have been back in it's heyday though!

Looks like the council plans to sell of part of the land up there to private contractors to fund the ski slopes redevelopment.

I think we should look into blocking any move to sell anything that currently belongs to the council, they are suggesting that money be invested based on no one using the facility 😯

Look at these pictures, there's plenty of space for tracks and all sorts of other stuff, but not if the land is sold to fund a doomed development project.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

What you see in the photo is only part of the land it runs all the way to the main road.

There are a few reports about it online http://www.scotsman.com/news/ski_centre_s_slide_into_ruin_set_to_be_halted_with_expansion_plan_1_822444

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-12849864

Odd how this place is more fun when no one is about 😆

So how are you suggesting people get to the top with bikes? It has already been stated the chairlift is not fit for purpose.

5 people on a niche mtb forum doesn't mean you will get all the support you will need.

Also would people really want to pay for a lift that gets them 2/3's of the way up a hill, and then they have to push the rest? Over time you you would be left with only a hard core few.