You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I purchased a £2k VW Polo for my 17 year old daughter from a trade seller garage via an ad on Auto Trader. Vehicle has 55k on the clock and full service history.
I test drove the car and it seemed fine, but 3 days after buying the car my daughter told me a light kept coming on. Low and behold it was the engine management light and after getting the vehicle hooked up at a local VW garage was told that the cylinder valve is burnt out on cylinder 3 and it will be minimum £500 to strip the head off and replace the valve or more if the head needs to be replaced.
Now I am aware that under the Consumer Act 2015 I can request a repair or refund from the trader, but the issue I have is that said trader refuses too answer my emails and has just been messing me around all week about taking the vehicle back. He kept telling me he'd ring to tell me when to take it back, but he never called me.
The trouble I have is that it has left us really stuck as my Daughter now cannot get to school and needs a car. Am I correct that I cannot get the vehicle repaired and persue him for the repair costs and that my only option is small claims to obtain a full refund?
Shame, as the vehicle itself is tidy.
Is it the kind of place that has regular opening hours? Sounds like he's already agreed to a refund so just take it back, preferably at a busy time when there's other customers to hear what's going on. Don't leave until he's bank transferred the money to you and given you a receipt.
saw this on a daytime TV program this week..... the joys of job seeking.
Phone or in person, which is harder to ignore than emails (although follow up with email) saying you expect a repair or refund by say next weekend. If he cannot do that, then you will have it repaired yourself and pursue the claim through the court.
Turn up on his doorstep on Monday morning.
+1 for on his doorstep on Monday morning. Take a copy the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (car section) with you, having read it thoroughly over the weekend so you're absolutely clear about your legal rights and the obligations on the seller.
Be polite, clear and firm.
If he gives you verbal commitment insist he confirms by email with timescale to undertake the work to your satisfaction; if he doesn't then hand deliver a letter to him stating your understanding of his commitment including completion timescales and advising that your letter represents a legal agreement.
Be clear that non-compliance will result in legal action and local media.
Let us know how you get on.
Be clear that non-compliance will result in legal action and local media.
Really? Over an age related issue on what’s probably a 15 year old car? That action would cost more than just fixing the thing.
I’d suck it up. Old cars go wrong, and at any time. It’s just part of owning them.
Be clear that non-compliance will result in legal action and local media.
Or. Do what a reasonable person who bought a £2k car that deleloped a fault would do.
Ask him to fix it and take it from there.
It's definitely not because he is busy it's because I think he is a dodgy seller who has no idea regarding the law. For instance, when I test drove the car he didn't put trade plates on it, which I thought was rather strange?
I am going to send a letter recorded delivery as when I did spoke to him in the week he came across as confrontational and aggressive. He also kept saying it was trade sale sold as seen, but I am not a trade buyer, so unsure what he is trying on with that.
I appreciate wear and tear, but the head being knackered on a car with full service at point of purchase is a suck it up affair.
He had also had the details of the previous owner removed from the V5C as it doesn't have a name where as all other V5C we have actually list the name.
Lol and still after that, you bought it?
If something seems to cheap and he's saying "sold as seen mate" did you not ask yourself some questions?
. He also kept saying it was trade sale sold as seen, but I am not a trade buyer, so unsure what he is trying on with that.
You cannot sell a vehicle to a member of the public as a trade sale .
Have you googled the seller ? See if he's got previous.
You've attempted to find a solution and I cannot see them playing ball.
I'd send a 'letter before action', templates available online if yiu hunt around, clearly stating the facts and attempt to remedy.
No drama, just facts. Finish by saying you've lost confidence that he'll do his duty, so 30 days before you file a claim.
If the 30 days lapses without remedy then money claim online is dead easy to use for 'small claims' (its not called small claims any more though.
You can also state you'll be claiming allowable expenses such as your admin time (at minimum wage) interest from the time you file the claim, and any other expenses allowable by the court.
I'm sure there's a motors section on the consumer action group forum, plenty of advice there do do a bit of reading.
I'd agree with the above
Establish if he is a genuine business with long term history. If not chasing through courts just wastes more money.
Try googling any mobile numbers he has and see if they turn up on gumtree etc
He had also had the details of the previous owner removed from the V5C as it doesn’t have a name where as all other V5C we have actually list the name.
Previous keepers aren't on there anymore because of GDPR.
on the basis of the 'trade sale, suck it up' responses, maybe a call to your local TSO as well, see what they'd suggest as he may have previous.
How did you pay for the car ? Any on a credit card?
on the basis of the ‘trade sale, suck it up’ responses, maybe a call to your local TSO as well, see what they’d suggest as he may have previous.
That’s not what I said. I said old cars go wrong and you need to own them with your eyes open.
From what the OP has said about this dealer, he’s going to get absolutely nowhere. It’s not right, and it’s illegal, but it’s a fact with these kind of dealers. It’ll be less effort and stress just to get the car fixed and move on.
And next time, buy from somewhere that doesn’t ring every alarm bell going before you’ve even bought the car.
If it's an otherwise tidy £2k car and the only issue is the valve, I'd seriously consider getting it repaired myself and putting up with the cost.
The grief and hassle involved in rejecting it could be wearying and lengthy, so you could be without a car and money for weeks. I doubt the dealer is just going to say 'Fair cop, I've got your your two bags of sand in notes, right here and now, and have this air freshener on me.' My guess is that he'll be promising a transfer every day for weeks / months.
And when the cash does materialise, you're back to square one, trying to find a decent small car for less than most e-MTBs.
I doubt you'll find one fault free, or even close to it.
If the one you have is ok (save for the repair) I'd think hard about keeping it.
And asking the dealer to fix it is a risk, do you trust him to do it well, and not just as cheaply as possible?
comment wasn't at you, apologies for confusion. It was the OP in a later post who said he'd already tried to raise with the dealer and ......
He also kept saying it was trade sale sold as seen, but I am not a trade buyer, so unsure what he is trying on with that.
A dealer cannot do sold as seen. One of the benefits compared to a private sale
Indeed, a private sale is sold as seen.
If you buy from a business lots of laws apply, it has to be fit for purpose, free from major defects etc. Etc
Sold as seen, in this case meaning you should have seen how long I had to disconnect the battery to get that light to go out.
Seems highly likely he was aware of the fault and did enough to keep the light off ling enough for a test drive. Doesn't seem like the kind of trader who is going to be helpful about taking the car back.
I'd doorstep him quick before he ceases trading.
Tell us more about this trader. Has he got actual premises? Does he use a business name (eg. Bob's Cars)? Or was it just an anonymous classified advert?
1. I’m amazed that any diagnostic computer can diagnose exactly what’s wrong with a valve in the head. All they’ll know is that it’s not working properly.
2. I have no idea what burnt out even means? Valve stem damage? A seal has split? It’s siezed? What?
3. I’d be willing to bet you could repair it at home for less than £100.
IME, it’s unlikely to have damaged the head.
Do the consumer laws still apply to second hand goods as in this instance?
Thought used good simply had to be fit for purpose, as described and wear and tear in keeping with age and mileage.
I think in this case the gentleman had previously sold the car and taken in back as the EML came on, then he sold it again to you.
You may deem in a nice car otherwise and just get it fixed, if you have the money, only you can decide by taking the qualities of the car into consideration
This is the company we bought the car from Car Dealer
170k cars on their web site and have been trading 3 years, but when I did some digging of my own one of the chaps who isn't the owner of that business has been a director of 14 companies over quite a short period of time. According to companies house the company accounts don't make sense given the so called high end motors they apparently sell.
Just for the record the garage swapped the plugs around / coils and also did compression tests. The compression reading on cylinder 3 came back way under the others.
If nothing happens to fix within x amount of time, procure one aerosol can of expanding builders foam and yer man's luxury car's exhaust pipe.
1. I’m amazed that any diagnostic computer can diagnose exactly what’s wrong with a valve in the head. All they’ll know is that it’s not working properly.
It is usually a case of using what codes are present (cylinder misfire usually read off the crankshaft position sensor) and what aren't (lean reading from O2 sensor, e.g.).
Plus an oscilloscope
Then compression test
2. I have no idea what burnt out even means? Valve stem damage? A seal has split? It’s siezed? What?
usually an exhaust valve doesn't quite close properly and the hot gases just leak through a very small gap with a lot of pressure behind it, at high speed, producing more heat and 'burns' away the thin lip at the edge of the valve. Carbon deposits, which hold heat, can casue the same effect.
3. I’d be willing to bet you could repair it at home for less than £100.
Maybe. Ish.
IME, it’s unlikely to have damaged the head.
Maybe, but if it is an exhaust valve, there's is a good chance it's been leaking for a while so you might be in need of a new catalytic converter soon.
Private sale you have to lump it basically.
Trade sale I think you can reject it and then not use it at all until seller does something about it or get the dealer to repair.
@muzz, yes absolutely they do, if you buy from a dealer. Not if you buy from a private seller
https://www.theaa.com/car-buying/legal-rights
The usual 'scam' around this is the person who buys and sells cars as a money making enterprise but does it in a way that makes it look like private sales; no premises, cars on the road with handwritten for sale signs in the window, etc., so they can avoid being responsible for future faults once the cars driven away. But TS are often aware of these guys too and have enforced against them.
But looks like the dealer in this case isn't hiding it, just dgaf anyway.
If you took it to a VW main dealer to diagnose the fault, were they able to validate the mileage - assuming FVWSH?
55k miles sounds a bit low for a £2k car, and possibly at odds with one that's developed a cylinder head issue.
@cromolyolly knows their stuff. This is exactly how the garage explained it to me. He even said that the chap selling the vehicle knew full well it had the engine fault.
Still. Sending the letters tomorrow to state the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and requesting a full refund, otherwise, I'll be issuing small claims court proceedings.
PLus it wont be £500. It would be alot more . Strip down engine to remove head , remove head , take head to specialist machine shop for valve seat repair/ reface/recut . New Valve. New head gasket, anti freeze probs . Whilst you are this far down that road you may as will sling a camblet , water pump, aux belt on it . So the real cost will be over £1000 inc vat.
I would be looking at exchange engine , or a known good engine from a breakers ( which is always a gamble )
But as it wont be your problem as the nice man is going to refund your monies when you rock up with trading standards
Thanks all. I'll keep you posted regarding how it all goes.
Best way is to reject the car and take it back for your money back. It's a shame but you'll struggle to ensure that the dealer does it correctly if you get him to repair it and getting a third party involved in the repairs leaves you in a weaker position.
Take the car back and get your money back.
55k miles sounds a bit low for a £2k car
Our 12 yr old Mazda 3 Sport (owned from new so 100% verified milage) has 65,000 on the clock. I'd take £2k of anyone's money for it quite happily.