Music streaming done right

I don't advocate for doing this but purely by accident I found that if your VPN suggests you're in Romania then you can get the Tidal individual plan for 23.99 RON/month, which works out at around £4/month. Family plan is 29.99 RON so another quid or so.

Got it because Tidal allows linking/streaming to Serato DJ, using a VPN because at work. The catalogue and sound quality is top notch.

Artists typically get a poor deal from all parts of the music business don’t they?

🤷🏻‍♂️ sounds like your son’s problem rather than yours if you’re still content with your gramophone and wireless or whatever.

https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2019/oct/31/best-streaming-service-mp3-pays-artists

it is possible that the service with the ‘best’ artist deal might not be the cheapest to subscribe to. Nor might it have the largest collection of music, but if it has the music you know you’re interested in that may not be a problem? Though you may want to check that it is the ‘right’ service for a pre-teen. After all, ceding to his wishes may backfire if it isn’t cool enough.

You’ll want to be sure that the app is available on whatever devices you use. Also that it won’t swamp whatever data allowances are on your phones if out and about.

By the way, licking cats? I assume a euphemism. Not a bad thing to do and part of the demotic in popular music.

If you have amazon prime then I believe Amazon Music is included, albeit I don't think it has quite the range of artists as Spotify / Tidal etc.

Artists typically get a poor deal from all parts of the music business don’t they?

They get a poor deal if you buy the MP3 too so unless you stick with vinyl, ultimately there's not much difference. See them live and buy the merchandise if you really want to support them.

The amount paid to artists depends - obviously - on the region you're registered in for payments so by electing to pretend that you're in Romania all you're actually doing is robbing the people who make the content.

Apparently Napster (!) pay the most, then Tidal (though probably not if you sign up from Romania 🙄) and Spotify then YouTube the least. Everyone else somewhere in the middle.

Nowt wrong with Spotify. Just works. We have the family package shared between me, wife, daughter and my parents.

Pretty much all have 30 day trials so sign up for a few and see which works best for you.

Tidal has a top stream which shares out your mo ey according to what you actually listen if I understand correctly.  They then have a lower service that shares according to the average split across everyone (I think).  Their family plan seems good value

I think Qobuz might pay well as well but it is up a level in price

Edit:it's tidal hifi plus that seems to feed more towards artists. With Qobuz you can actually buy tracks which might be even better

Nowt wrong with Spotify.

by electing to pretend that you’re in Romania all you’re actually doing is robbing the people who make the content.

I appreciate this, and I emailed Tidal to see if I could change it somehow but their response was that the email I used is permanently associated with Romania and account location cannot be changed. Nor can the email be used again. I didn't even have my VPN set to Romania, it was set to UK, but Tidal recognised it as Romania.

I'm not enough of a martyr to be arsed about righting Tidal's weird account rules so £4/month it is.

We use Spotify on the family plan, primarily because it’s the only one that had a decent kids version. So my pre-teen-going-on-19-year-old daughter can have the curated Spotify Kids app, and my actual-teenage son can have the adult version. And I can give Joe Rogan more money.

There’s a lot wrong with Spotify, primarily in the one area that OP actually cares about!

You're arguing about fractions of a pence. They all pay shit and the only way to really support smaller artists is to go to their gigs, buy merch and CD's/Vinyl direct from them.

And there's this to take into account...
[i]For instance, Spotify may pay less per stream, but it has more listeners than other more high-paying streaming platforms, so it’s possible that you meet the goal faster with streams on Spotify than on Napster.[/i]

https://www.lalal.ai/blog/music-streaming-payouts-2023/#:~:text=Tidal%2C%20a%20high%2Dfidelity%20music,%240.0125%20to%20%240.015%20per%20stream.

I wanted to change to Tidal as it pays artists better than Spotify but I can't* link it to my google smart device so ended up sacking it off and sticking with Spotify. If they sort that out I might change.

*Easily, you know for the general numpty masses, not all the IT geeks on here.

I use bandcamp to buy digital music and merch from small bands.

You’re arguing about fractions of a pence. They all pay shit

Of course the main reason Spotify pay shit all is because they've never actually made any money, and post a loss every year. They've constantly undervalued their product by giving it away for free to the majority of their customers, which does absolutely no-one any favours in the long run. What their long-term plan is, I have no idea. 🤷‍♂️

I use Tidal for proper sound quality and artist fairness. easy to connect to my chrome cast from my android phone.
Don't think OPs lad will want to vpn to a Romanian account on his phone while out with his mates tho..
My teenager uses family Spotify tho cos he and his mates all share their play lists, the social side is much better on Spotify, and that could well be important when choosing which one
We also use Spotify in the car with it linking from the car idrive

I heard one fairly well established folk singer on the radio recently. Her entire output has been available to stream for ten years, she reckons her total income from streaming over that time is less than £1000.

she reckons her total income from streaming over that time is less than £1000.

I use Tidal for proper sound quality and artist fairness

This. Listening to American Folk as I type. Leave it on when you go to to bed with the desk amp switched off to improve artist payments.

Like all streaming, you have to bash the like button or you'll forget the music that you like. It's a slow learner otherwise. Still thinks I like Hip Hop sometimes.

I appreciate this, and I emailed Tidal to see if I could change it somehow but their response was that the email I used is permanently associated with Romania and account location cannot be changed. Nor can the email be used again. I didn’t even have my VPN set to Romania, it was set to UK, but Tidal recognised it as Romania.

I switched to Tidal from Spotify for the artist share reasons mostly (plus a serving of Joe Rogan flouncing)....but I had constant account issues with them similar to this, can't remember the exact details but all sorts of weirdness, random charging and generally flaky behaviour.

Anyway, then switched to Apple music as the next least worst - it's OK, but seems to have a slightly less complete catalogue than Spotify, and adding a family member with Android is a PITA, so not sure if I'd totally recommend. Also I find the Sonos integrated interface weird - it's hard to break out of my purchases Library, which is 3 albums only one of which I bought and includes that U2 thing they pushed to everyone years ago. May not be Apple's issue but still a pain for me.

I can feel a move back to Spotify coming on.

Can't you just give the child a radio?

notwithstanding the paltry payments, but I reckon that could also be down to folk-music-fans not wanting to mess about with new-fangled technology 🤔

Probably still rocking these stickers too!... 🙂
[img] [/img]

switched to Tidal... but I had constant account issues with them

Zero issues w Tidal billing or account for me

Steal music, send the artist a tenner if you listen to a record more than once.

Vinyl isn't as good an earner for many musicians as it was, despite the prices rising. Bandcamp is okay for musicians.

Artists typically get a poor deal from all parts of the music business don’t they?

Yep, generally because of the contracts with record companies.

They then blame the streaming platforms with which they dictated the terms to....

Anyway, then switched to Apple music as the next least worst – it’s OK, but seems to have a slightly less complete catalogue than Spotify, and adding a family member with Android is a PITA

@zilog6128 @the-muffin-man you need to get out and meet some folk music fans.

As noted (and as someone who has music available on vinyl, bandcamp and streaming) - no streaming service pays notably well. IMO mp3 sales are just as acceptable in supporting artists as buying the record. (Gigs, vinyl, mp3 sales, merch, it all helps).

In your use case, probably just get a Spotify family plan and investigate other options to supplement it!

I'm a heavy user of Bandcamp: labels get typically 85% of the purchase price, and you get to download the WAVs for future use (handy when things disappear off Spotify) but also then stream them via the app.  I also have a Spotify subscription, buy the odd vinyl, and get to gigs when I can.

spotify is so shit.

we use it as a family (since google play was stopped) but i hate it so much.

Spotify is awesome. I devour tonnes of weird, obscure nonsense which I'd never find any other way. Russian Drift Phonk anyone?

I don't use it to constantly relisten to my favourite albums from decades ago when my taste was frozen in time at the 6th form Christmas party.

Just do something for your son without being all STW about it?

P.S. for all the none cat lickers, you need to broaden your horizons.

since google play was stopped

It became YouTube music

Spotify family account user here.

Use it everyday for podcasts and new music. It's brilliant and simple to use.
<p style="text-align: left;">If you just listen to your old favourite bands it's probably not the best value.</p>

@gordimhor

@zilog6128 @the-muffin-man you need to get out and meet some folk music fans.

That would mean having to listen to folk music! 🙂

Tidal family user here. Quality is better than Spotify and I've discovered lots of artists that I wouldn't have heard of otherwise.  I really like it.  Will buy CDs/Vinyl directly from the artists when I get the chance

Spotify's android app is quite buggy, in case such things bother you.

Examples off the top of my head in current version:

1. the skip forward/back 15s button in the notification bar is the wrong way round
2. it will only play around 50% of cached files if you are out of phone coverage/on a flight
3. if somebody plays a track using my Google Home speaker, when using Android Auto it stops the music in my car (even the radio, nothing to do with spotify or android auto!)
4. the notification sometimes gets stuck and cannot be cleared from the lock screen. I even had 3 stuck notifications the other day. There's a thread that's been open for approx 5 years on their forum/bug tracker about it!

From here: https://www.headphonesty.com/2021/11/how-much-does-spotify-pay-per-stream/

(it's 2 years old but gives you an idea)

Quboz is best at $0.043/stream

then Tidal at 0.013

Apple at 0.01

Spotify at 0.0033

But,  Tidal do have this plus subscription where they change the balance so more goes to the artists that you personally listen to (as I understand it)

And I can give Joe Rogan more money.

$200 million of Spotify subscriptions gone to one horrendous man. There's my main reason for shifting off Spotify.

If you're all on Apple devices then Apple Music is great and if you use iCloud or whatever then there are various bundles that are ok value (for Apple).  As someone else said, they are relatively artist friendly too.

Especially compared to Spotify. Qobuz and Tidal look interesting as well.

For reference, I just looked at my PRS statement for last month. Here are the numbers for one particular tune. In order of royalty rate!  Rates are not fixed - they depend on how and when different countries report their stats. Sometimes Norway or Switzerland report all at once and pay high rates. Next quarter it's all Slovakia and Turkey and rates are much lower. I am really, really, very substantially surprised to see Amazon Prime doing better than Apple here.

Tidal: 124 plays for £0.258 - (£0.0021 a play)
Amazon Prime: 1302 plays for  £0.879 (£0.00068 a play)
Apple Music: 220 plays for £0.098 - (£0.00045 a play)
Spotify: 2560 plays for £0.32 - (£0.0013p a play)
Youtube: 88,482 plays for £2.33 - (£0.000026 a play, or as Excel shows it, £2.633E-05 per play)

One play on daytime (Saturday) 6 Music: £9.54
A £1 sale on Bandcamp: £0.80ish, (after BC and Paypal's cut)

Edit to add: Qobuz is hard to quantify due to low numbers. Seems to be anywhere between £0.0013 a play, ie less than Tidal, to £0.003, which beats Tidal.

@doris5000

Does it cost you to create accounts with them all and upload music, or is that element free to the artist?

@doris5000

Is it the same payment from non paying subscriptions as paying (Spotify) to yourself?

For all but the smallest artists, it'll generally be handled by the label's distributor, who'll get your music onto all the various mp3 shops and streaming sites, either for a cut of sales or a fixed fee or a combination of the two.  DistroKid is popular for indie artists, gets you on Spotify et al, and their service starts at around £35 a year.  Or, er, 26923 plays on Spotify.

I'm pretty sure you *can* upload your stuff manually but I've never done it and wouldn't really know how. I've tried to contact Spotify in the past (for instance one of my projects has several different artist pages with subtly different names, so you can't easily see all the releases in one places). But for a relative nobody you're never gonna get a response! So it's easier to go through a distro.

@pk13, yes it's all in one lump, so the non-payers will be dragging down the average. Same with Youtube - most of it is the ad-supported stuff, which pays almost nothing.

Artists typically get a poor deal from all parts of the music business don’t they?

Not from the aforementioned Bandcamp, especially on Bandcamp Friday when 100% of the purchase price goes to the artist.
Personally, I buy my tracks, then stream from my own NAS. Can understand why this type of thing isn’t for everyone though.

I buy my own tracks/cds, either direct from the artist or label or bandcamp where possible. Then I upload and stream via iTunes Match, which pays out a second time (or many times if it’s a song on constant rotation).

Personally, I buy my tracks, then stream from my own NAS. Can understand why this type of thing isn’t for everyone though.

Is there an app which gives you a library like Spotify for this but with your own files on the NAS? Or do you store the files on the phone?

@the-muffin-man
Oh just put a finger in one ear and sing a long.🙂

Is there an app which gives you a library like Spotify for this but with your own files on the NAS? Or do you store the files on the phone?

Plex?

Is there an app which gives you a library like Spotify for this but with your own files on the NAS? Or do you store the files on the phone?

Yes… guess it depends on the NAS, but I use a Qnap NAS and QMusic that comes with it. Plex can be used as above, I’m sure there are others.

I tried to move to Tidal from Spotify but the app is so crappy that the plan is cancelled for now. BT speakers stopped working after one song when phone screen locked and general issues on fairly recent iOS device. Also on larger screened car (Carplay) the playlist buttons are hard to see. When listening on headphones the sound quality felt like it was improved but maybe it is just due different compression algorithm which sounds different to Spotify.

Apple Music I might try again but last time I tried it it was really annoying usability wise.

Also Soundcloud, some more obscure artists sell their music there and it might be better for them financially.

YouTube subscriber here. For me it's worth £12/month for the combination of unlimited music streaming via YouTube Music and not seeing any ads on YouTube. Background playing of videos on a phone is pretty handy too.

£7/month for students is pretty reasonable, as is £20/month for a family (up to 6 users in total).

I tried using YouTube without signing in from a hotel "Smart" TV last month, and my god I'd forgotten how horrendous it is seeing all those ads...

Bear in mind that YouTube appears to pay less because the vast majority of users are not paying, so you just get a small split of ad revenue. If you're a subscriber then YouTube gets 50% of your money, the rest goes to artists/creators proportional to your listening/viewing time.

I also note that in @doris500's example above, although YouTube pays the least per stream it paid the most actual revenue of all the streaming platforms.

Edit: FWIW, like others I also buy albums/merch in various formats from the artists I particularly like.

Thanks @dorris5000

For the older music 90s for me I've subscribed to email lists of the smaller bands and buy the limited edition LPs re releases ect.

Super furry animals 90s hip hop ect . You can understand why big bands are selling off the rights as it would take a lifetime to earn any decent rewards.

New stuff is harder to find and support, i'd genuinely pay over the price range of Spotify ect if they gave a proper kick back to the artist.

The clutter of CDs fills me with dread but I can handle vinyl.

Playing devil's advocate, if I illegally download all my 90s stuff then buy a tee or 12" vinyl from the artist they would be better off?

NAS music? Not for everyone as you said. Also, not quite what I expect the OP’s pre-teen is after. It’s not Apple Music or Spotify which I’d guess are the benchmarks he might be using.

Yes… guess it depends on the NAS, but I use a Qnap NAS and QMusic that comes with it. Plex can be used as above, I’m sure there are others.

DS Audio app will stream from the Synology NAS and let you download to the phone. Pretty sure that there’ll be several similar apps to do the same thing - PLEX as suggested, VLC, … https://www.synology.com/en-global/dsm/feature/audio_station

Edit. I use Apple Music. Have done since iTunes Match came out on iTunes. Family subscription works out OK for us. I even use Apple Music for the stuff I have on the NAS - easier with the integration of the app and it’s now in the car too.

For general round the house/car/gym/work BT speaker, Spotify is hard to beat.

Great for gatherings too as you can have a group session where multiple people can join and add songs to the playlist.

We have the family package, but need to check if the daughter still uses it and maybe downgrade.

For quality listening (to a degree as still on BT), I have Tidal. Contrary to above I find the app fine. Tried Qobuz for a while but didn't get on with it

Playing devil’s advocate, if I illegally download all my 90s stuff then buy a tee or 12″ vinyl from the artist they would be better off?

Oh I dunno!  Money from a 90's album could depend on a contract that they signed in 1991 with a company that has since been merged or acquired, with a label manager who died in 2008, so who knows

These days I'm fairly sanguine, and advise anyone wanting to support acts to accept that streaming pays almost nowt, so just try to consciously support them one way or another too. Whether a t-shirt, gig ticket, vinyl, bandcamp album etc. Whatever!

This stuff is important to 'the scene'. There's something ephemeral about streaming that can be great but also (for me) creates shallow relationships with music. A £10 gig ticket might not give much money to the band themselves, but it makes the whole tour a bit closer to breaking even, makes the gig feel busier and more lively, helps create a convivial vibe that benefits everyone, in a way that you streaming a song 1,000x wouldn't, even if it contributed the same amount of money. It also helps the venue!

I've been buying a lot more bandcamp albums lately - just take a punt on something for £8 (cheap really, considering what we had to pay for an album in the 90's) and give it a few goes. Live with it a bit, make an active effort to get into it. I find it more satisfying, although I might just be telling myself that!

I'm giving band camp a try

Is there an app which gives you a library like Spotify for this but with your own files on the NAS? Or do you store the files on the phone?

Plex on the NAS and Plexamp on the phone to roll your own streaming service. Plex has some good help info for getting the right holes in the firewall to stream across the net. The £4 a month sub is well worth the money especially if you want to watch films/listen to music online from home

Another Plex user here.

Plexamp (their music player) is perhaps the best music player out there IMO, and I don't think you need a Plex-pass any more to use it (ie: it's free).  You obviously need a way to host your own media, so it's a bit more involved than just signing-up, but still pretty easy for anyone who grappled with digitising our CD collections in iTunes etc.  FYI, it also does the same for your DVDs, but thats a whole different conversation.

Of interest is the fact that Plexamp integrates with Tidal - with the intention of helping you to navigate your own music collection alongside a streaming service.  I haven't done this myself, but it sounds like a good solution for those of us that are still emotionally invested in our crates of CDs in the loft, but that also want to stream music.

In terms of hardware for Plex - you can basically run it on anything, but the best solution is something thats "always on" (hence a NAS is a good choice), but you can just as easily run it on whatever laptop/desktop you already have - with then client apps on your phone, iPad, TV whatever.

@doris5000 can you link to your music so we can give you a few extra streams, t shirts, albums, gigs etc?

Apple music here, it just works as we all have Apple devices. I use it for lots of new music, kids use it for repeatedly playing annoying R&B rubbish. Spotify was suggested by the kids at one point but only if I pay for it, so we stuck with Apple.

The problem with all of the streaming services is that the royalties per play go directly to the record companies, who then pay artists pro rata, so those who are well known and who stream many millions/billions globally earn more per than artists who might get a couple of million plays in their home country. The fault lies with the entire music industry, as well as the streaming services, both of whom should be forced to revise their practices so that individual artists get appropriate payments per stream in the same way as from radio, that way lesser known artists would benefit a lot more than they do now.

FWIW I use Apple Music, because all of its content is Lossless, something that Spotify hasn’t got to grips with yet, and who will charge more for unless you want to get adverts, in which case you might as well listen to commercial radio.
And yes, I do appreciate the Lossless part of it, because I don’t use wireless headphones, mine are cabled to my phone, both my in-ear and over-ear headphones.

A problem I do find, though, is that I don’t have to storage space on my phone to download everything in my library, so walking into town and back home frequently shows how crappy the phone networks still are, because a song will suddenly stop playing partway through, and refuse to carry on, because only 3G is available. And they’re talking about shutting down the 3G system!

Marvellous idea, lose a significant portion of the mobile network in built-up areas when there isn’t enough bandwidth already and 5G isn’t even available closer than 30-odd miles away! Still, I’m sure the millions they make from selling the frequencies off will benefit us all somehow… /s