MSW users - do you rewax as often as ZFC recommends?

Just in case no-one else replies, I had wondered something similar last week:

Waxers - how often do you rewax your MTB chain? - Singletrack World Magazine

I have used Putoline in the past but found it a bit too messy and it seemed to big down the shifting on anything more than 9 speed.

I currently use Smoove with a drip into the rollers so nothing gets onto the outside of the plates. I imagine this would be similar. However, I always use a reasonably well specced chain with good plating and dry my chain after a ride.

I imagine this is a similar scenario and I don't suffer with rust issues.

Sounds OTT?

I know a few people run putoline'ed chains through an oily rag to keep the outside from rusting, but for most users the whole point is not having to maintain it that often.

I guess with a name like zero friction cycling they're probably time trialers and triathletes so the bikes don't get used very often?

@leffeboy - yes I replied to that thread and with Putoline the answer is not that often but the ZFC crew don’t have Putoline in their test results… I’m specifically interested in how Molten Speed Wax performs by comparison really I guess. It’s expensive by comparison that’s for sure!

ZFC do seem to suggest that you can top it up between waxes by using Silca SS drip lube after getting it wet but that’s v expensive also… They say that Smoove or Squirt will work also but they’re not as good and mean you have to fully clean with solvents before rewaxing rather than just boiling water followed by wax immersion.

Seems a bit ludicrous to have to rewax after washing..

Maybe the answer is to try and get the Putoline cleaner by wiping the chain more vigorously while it’s still hot, to squeeze more of the wax out of the rollers before it cools…

If it’s really wet and mucky, ie muddy, then it’ll probably need a rewax due to spots of wear. Just wet then I take my time with drying and leave it. I have had a chain go rusty due to being left (XO1 eagle, it cleaned up and is still working fine) but two minutes drying and it’s done. If I’ve washed the bike I’ll run over the books and crannies with the airline to aid with drying though, this really does help to push the water out of the chain.

yes I replied to that thread

Oops, sorry

Maybe the answer is to try and get the Putoline cleaner by wiping the chain more vigorously while it’s still hot, to squeeze more of the wax out of the rollers before it cools…

Yes, it really is quite messy while it cools. I'm hoping that after a few rides and wipes it stays clean as it does seem messier than the other waxes I saw in videos - but they were videos and I trust this place more

single use chainlinks is rubbish too. Might be urban legend but they're only called single use because someone else has the patent on reusable or something.

There comes a point where the cost of replacing worn components is lower than the cost of washing, degreasing and re-oiling /re-waxing them.

Has anyone done this real world analysis for MTB where the chances of saving 3W from a spotless chain are zero and most of us wouldn’t notice or care anyway?

With SRAM single use (well maybe 4 or 5 times) quick inks at £3 a pop it’s going to cost me £20 a month

I used to use a new quick link with every new chain until I forgot to buy one so had to use the old one. I've then used the same one for a while to see what happens.

I carry a couple strapped to the gear cable just in case. I'm not dead yet.

I'd just run an oily wag over the chain after you wash it. If your chain doesn't rust then yiu don't have a problem. If it does rust then you might need to do something different.

I’d just run an oily wag over the chain

You sure she wouldn't object?

I've never only used a quicklink once.
Taken chains on and off multiple times and reused them with zero issues and seemingly minimal being deads.

I'm pretty certain that re-waxing just to prevent surface rust is a massive waste of time.

As I understand it, the wax doesn't stay on the surface of the chain for very long anyway and you don't need this surface layer anyway. It's one of the reasons it runs so clean.

But of course this means you have a bare metal surface so if you splash it when washing or ride in the rain it will rust unless you dry it or give it a wipe with an oily rag.

I've never considered the extra 30 seconds to run a chain backwards through a rag to be too much hassle, it just feels like the perfect finishing touch before putting the bike away for next time 😎

We run silica’s equivalent wax. We generally rewax after any ride in rain (the odd bit or drizzle or splashing through a few puddles I wouldn’t bother for). Original quick links still going fine after 18 months.

Regarding oiling the chain, unlike putoline and some of the other blends, waxes like MSW and silca don’t contain any grease or oily components. This stops them picking up grit and is a contributor to their low friction/high chain life. Oiling the surface of the chain would obviously remove that benefit; you would also want to degrease before re-waxing to avoid contaminating your pot.

We originally started waxing as my other half doesn’t like the black gunk you get with conventional chain lubes. I was concerned about the cost, but we are still on our original £20 bag of wax and would easily have spent that on lube in the same time. We also used to go through multiple chains per winter, but since waxing we have done two winters on the same chains.

Ha, reading this reminded me I haven't putolined my gravel bike's chain since January. Maybe done 800km on it, and it was fine on a 70km ride this morning!
I run an lightly oiled rag over the chain after wet rides.

I don't care about cosmetic rust spots on side plates (and I use putoline, AND I reuse quicklinks) so my views are probably not relevant here. I never rewax because of wet; I rewax when the chain feels like it needs it on a quick side-to-side wobble or if it sounds bad

Well I've ordered some MSW and some Silca SS drip lube to see what's what. I'll still use the Putoline on the MTB and see how the MSW goes on the flash git of a roadbike that doesn't want any gunk on it...

 I’ll still use the Putoline on the MTB and see how the MSW goes on the flash git of a roadbike that doesn’t want any gunk on it…

Sets a 3 month reminder to request a report back 🙂

I’ll still use the Putoline on the MTB and see how the MSW goes on the flash git of a roadbike that doesn’t want any gunk on it…

This is exactly my plan but the current fancy roadbike drivetrain just won't wear out, Squirt lube doing its job! Next one will be MSW. And probably an 11-30 cassette while I'm at it 😭

I use MSW and redo when I feel like it / remember. In the meantime I keep it dry ie actively dry after washing and also use Smoove in small quantities before wet rides.

I’ve never only used a quicklink once

Shimano or SRAM or both? I seem to recall reading somewhere that SRAM were thinner or something so more likely to fail after multiple uses. I’ve reused Shimano ones on the MTB probably 20 times with less being dead than I imagined. Road bike has SRAM which I have zero experience of….

Well, I went on a 4hr road ride in the rain today with MSW on my chain… hmmm.

The bike and I were filthy. So when I got back I rinsed off the bike with a bit of car shampoo in a bucket of warm water and brought it inside to dry while I ate lunch. I then took the chain off and gave it a boiling water bath or three, as per the instructions on ZFC; some grit etc came off and I let it dry then whacked it in the slow cooker with the MSW. I thought I would give the cassette a once over as my order of UFO Drivetrain Clean got delivered (Royal Mail – on a Sunday 🤷‍♂️) just as I was waiting for the chain and annoyingly as I was cleaning it I noticed a couple of rust spots on the cassette, literally a couple but still. Not very satisfactory really.

However, the drive train itself – including the chain, were very very clean, no gunk anywhere, but if it goes rusty during a wet ride then it’s a total waste of time if you ask me….Maybe topping it up with either the Silca or something else BEFORE the wet ride is going to help but again, bit of a faff with that as it needs to set overnight and potentially takes longer to clean afterwards – perhaps I’ll try it and see…. I do like the way it shifts silently and quickly with the MSW though, and it feels faster, so I’m keen to persevere for a bit, not least because I’ve bought the bloody stuff now…

The chap from Silca says you should put drip lube on TOP of the wax as the wax gets compacted inside the chain leaving a gap which you can fill with drip lube - he would say that though as he sells a drip lube.... 🤷‍♂️. It sounds plausible though and the drip lube should give more protection during a wet ride so I'm going to ride my freshly waxed chain for 10 miles or so in the dry and then wipe with meths to clean off any contaminants and then add some Silca lube...

EDIT - Oh, and the SRAM quicklinks seem to be much thinner than the Shimano ones so I guess you can't reuse them as often..

Hmm... I think you're going down a bit of a rabbit hole worrying about corrosion protection! Wax won't stay on the outer surface of a chain, not even Putoline, so I'd swear the simplest thing is to give it a wipe down with some GT85 on a rag after a wet ride. That's what I do with my winter bike.

Even Squirt lasts the duration of a long wet ride if it's applied properly to begin with, the wax in the middle of the rollers seems to resist washing out for a good few hours.

As for rust spots on the cassette, I'm not sure what you could really do to prevent that, I certainly wouldn't want to be trying to coat an entire cassette in wax or oil!

Definitely not intending to manually coat the cassette! The rust I observed was where the chain was sitting on it whilst parked up after a wet ride - used to get that with Putoline sometimes but only if it was wet, salty, road grime. Chap from Silca also remarked that by rotating the cranks while applying it and shifting up and down, some would go on the cassette too, which would only further enhance the lubrication/resistance to contaminants. That also seems plausible but whether or not the clean drivetrain wins me over versus the durability of Putoline is still undecided. Maybe MSW in the summer and Putoline in the winter…..?🤷‍♂️

but if it goes rusty during a wet ride then it’s a total waste of time if you ask me…

Rust is pretty inevitable, especially if you're rubbing bits of steel together in water.

I just keep an old frylight bottle full of left over oil (left after brake bleeds and fork oil changes) and if I have to hose the drivetrain off between putolinings squirt some of that on the chain and cassette and wipe over with a rag to get rid of the excess, keeps the rust at bay and vanishes about as quickly as any other proper "dry lube" normally would...

I'm entirely not bothered about tiny spots of surface rust, I simply wipe the chain dry with a cloth after wet rides/washes. Some chains are more prone to rust than others, which have surface treatments. I do re-wax after proper filthy mountain bike rides in the gritty wet, but my cross bike and road bike get done when they need it. You can hear/feel when it starts to go.

The ZFC guys are great for base info and detail principles etc, but also obsessive zealots, who sometimes go a little OTT.

As someone already said, if you're using MSW rather than Putoline, you don't want to use an oily rag as you're both defeating the purpose of wax in not attracting dirt and also contaminating your remaining wax pot next time you wax the chain.

you don’t want to use an oily rag

In defence of my frequent recommendation of the oily rag method, I'm using GT85, so any residue is going to be a couple of micron thick layer of teflon surely?

I use MSW and like it, my approach is basically just keep going until it seems like it needs doing again... generally when the chain starts getting loose and noisy.
It's not very often, but then I don't get to ride very often either 🙁

Yes it gets a little rusty on the outside plates if I forget to dry it (ie always), but I can live with that, it stays nice and clean otherwise and miles better than the black gunk I used to get using wet lube all the time.

As mentioned above I think the guys who run the site are a bit zealous, a lot of the advice is aimed at people who need to get every last watt of power out of it. If you're not at the level that you're also using their super powered nano-graphite unicorn dust as well on every ride, you can be a bit more relaxed about it!

I’ve been waxing 2.5 years now. Using MSW then Silca. First 2 years used half a pack of MSW.
ZFC recommend you dry the chain with a micro fibre cloth to prevent rust.
An X01 chain doesn’t rust anyway. My GX cassette will rust, so I blow off the water with an airline. I’m not putting oil on the cassette as it would get into the chain necessitating multiple solvent baths to clean it properly.

Not doing the boiling water rinse and re- wax after a wet ride potentially means contamination inside and inevitably reduced drivetrain longevity. Just depends what your time is worth to you.
£300 a cassette!!

I’ve been getting 10+ changes out of a sram quick link. Once it stops clicking into place I use a new one. Yeah that’s a cost but £300 a casstee is too. And it’s such a lovely clean chain.

you don’t want to use an oily rag as you’re both defeating the purpose of wax in not attracting dirt and also contaminating your remaining wax pot next time you wax the chain.

Meh, a wee bit of relatively thin oil that gets shed/washed away pretty quickly once the drivetrain is used "in anger" is an acceptable way to keep rust minimised (IMO).

You'll never completely isolate the chain from potential sources of contamination, and whatever you use to lubricate it will adhere with crap to some extent, the thing I learned from finish line "dry lube" was that some lubricants do just bugger off within 10 miles, leaving you with a "clean" but essentially un-lubricated chain. I'd rather have putoline doing the important job inside the rollers and some cheap thin oil wiped over the surface between rides if necessary, knowing it will be gone a handful of miles into the next ride with minimal detriment.

A pricier product like Silca drip is still essentially going to do the same thing; it'll sit on the exterior surfaces keeping rust at bay, and be rubbed/flicked off before it can combine with dirt in use, hence the need to reapply it after a ride/hose down. same basic principle different price point...

You can use silicone lube on a rag too. Doesn't seem to affect the wax and leaves it nice and clean.

Yeah the ZFC advice is clearly aimed at racers etc and obviously  there are levels which it’s not in my/most people’s interest to achieve. Fair enough, they offer an ultimate solution and you can pick what you want out of it. My aim is a clean drivetrain with minimal wear rather than wringing every last watt of performance out of it.

MSW is on at the moment and it’s very smooth and speedy 🚴‍♂️

You can use silicone lube on a rag too. Doesn’t seem to affect the wax and leaves it nice and clean.

That is actually a very good idea and I'm probably going to try it, cheers!