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Roe v Wade: US Supreme Court strikes down abortion rights https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61928898
Crikey!
The USSC, yesterday:
In the same week where the US Supreme Court voted 6-3 in favour of widening rights for Concealed Carry Weapons against the wishes of those states, we have another 6-3 vote that has no place in the 21st Century.
Funnily there is 6 republican nominated judges on the supreme court, and 3 democratic nominations, for judges who are meant to be making evidence based judgements, it comes up as 6-3 on almost every occasion there is a party lines case.
We bemoan Johnson and the tories a lot, but even they would struggle to do what the republicans can in the US, even when they're not in power!
Depressing step backwards from a overtly religiously-extremist government?
Or an attempt to continue to produce an exploitable underclass when birth rates are falling?
Depends on your level of tinfoil.
Clarence Thomas also suggesting that legislation covering contraception, same sex relationships and same sex marriage should be 're-visited'.
That's inviting a (series of) direct challenge(s) which, I guess, he hopes will progress through the judicial system to the SC.
Vote was 6 - 3 but don't know who voted which way; guessing that trump's three were with Thomas in the majority.
Talk about a great leap backwards...
"Home of the free". Hmmm
Under his eye.
Turns out the USA wanted to be Iran all along. And it will be catching unless there is an effective resistance. Feudal theocracies, here we come.
America really is a crap hole
No rights for woman do with their bodies what they wish, but don’t you dare take that semi auto rifle out the hands of an inbred redneck
Depressing step backwards from a overtly religiously-extremist government?
Its a politically appointed Judiciary that is doing this, not the US government. Something which Conservative think tanks are keen to import to the UK.
The big problem with the USA, is the way it exports it's political "morality" through trade deals. The reason much of the worlds drug policies mimics the USA's is because the US wrote it into trade deals. I expect this medieval policy to be exported with similar zeal by the next republican government.
The US is as big if not bigger threat to the world as China and Russia, they just have different methods of damaging the world.
I expect this medieval policy to be exported with similar zeal by the next republican government.
It was written into foreign aid. No mention at all of abortion if you wanted any aid although I think Biden has dropped it now.
It is the one real achievement of Trumps although most of the heavy lifting was done by others. Stacking the supreme court with partisan nutcases for years to come unless the democrats accept its been corrupted and respond in kind.
What effect might the two recent SC decisions have on the next election? Will swing voters be unhappy about the decisions and turn to the Democrats, or (for reasons my brain can't identify) turn to Republicans?
I am amazed how political the US judiciary appears to be. I've always thought the UK judges were fairly neutral, although Boris disagreed.
The Taliban would be proud with the USSC’s decision.
Certainly makes Australia look like a more attractive option for young, skilled brits to emigrate to.
I think that one nuance that is being missed is that this has removed federal power to the State level legislature. Which means that whilst regressive, loony states will act predictably, progressive states will actually strengthen abortion rights on the back of this.
The bigger story is that this is another huge step towards a fragmented and fractured USA, which may, in our life time, cease to exist in the way it does now. There are already two Americas, and the U in USA is looking more ironic than ever.
The stacking of the court to achieve this has been done by dubious methods too. This podcast covers that (and covers Roe v Wade in later episodes). https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/what-trump-can-teach-us-about-con-law/id1242537529?i=1000519278248
Democratic norms are being ignored, what are we slipping towards?
The crazy thing is that the clear majority of Americans believe abortions should be legal and there should be stricter gun controls
So much for democracy!
And what really worries is that the UK seems to be following in America's footsteps
what are we slipping towards?
In the extreme - civil unrest?
It always amazes me that a nation with so many bright talented people spawns so many nut-jobs. And that the elected government are powerless to stop this.
I don’t think the UK is anywhere near (hopefully!). Religion just doesn’t have the same hold over people.
Religion just doesn’t have the same hold over people
It's not necessarily religion, it's people's ability to harness it for the wrong things. What seems to be happening is that we are getting better manipulating smaller and smaller demographics for one single goal. I read somewhere that during the last US election rather than cut people up into male/female, young/old etc there was over 300 demographics that using things like Facebook they could individually be targeted. Religion is just one (or several) of those now 🙁
Its a politically appointed Judiciary that is doing this, not the US government. Something which Conservative think tanks are keen to import to the UK.
They've been pretty open about it too.
There are already two Americas, and the U in USA is looking more ironic than ever.
My lad went to the World Scout Jamboree in America in 2019, and he was clear there were two distinct types of Americans, and he couldn't see how the two could coexist
I think that one nuance that is being missed is that this has removed federal power to the State level legislature.
Correct. The USA is not one country. The whole idea is that only certain things are federal. All this does in respect of abortion rights is shift them to state level. Whatever the rights or wrongs you at least have the option of changing them at state level or moving to a state you like better.
I was once waiting outside a post office in San Diego to post maps when it opened. Two locals arrived one after the other. Turned out they knew each other. For the next 5 minutes they chatted casually about Satan, God, and the resurrection. America can be a strange place.
For the record I am pro abortion in some circumstances. Whether the rules are best set by 9 unelected judges or at state level where there is some chance of a democratic campaign to change the rules is a good question.
Under his eye.
Blessed be the fruit.
I don’t think the UK is anywhere near (hopefully!). Religion just doesn’t have the same hold over people.
So then you have to find something else to leverage for manipulation. 🙂
As I understand it, the Pilgrim Fathers weren’t forced to leave England because of religious intolerance towards them, it was because of their lack of tolerance towards other religious points of view, and that intolerance becomes ever more obvious with each passing year - The Christian Right in America is no different to the Taliban in Afghanistan, and its something to be feared as far as its increasing influence of state leaders around the world.
In my humble opinion.
Biden should stuff the supreme court. Trump played dirty along with the rest of the Republicans over this. Sod turn the other cheek.
Biden should stuff the supreme court.
It’s a bit late for that though. They are life long positions I understand, and Trump (or his puppet masters) appointed (relatively) young judges.
Thete is no constitutional limit on numbers. Appoint 6 young libetals
or at state level where there is some chance of a democratic campaign to change the rules is a good question
I’m all for devolving the decision making down to the most local level. How about leaving the decision down to each individual woman to make the difficult choice for themselves?
And anyway, why just mention the state level? The battle to decriminalise abortion is often a battle between state legislatures and county/city government. This decision will make it harder for local governments to protect women from overreaching state government.
Thete is no constitutional limit on numbers.
Ah, I was unaware of that. Could get a bit crowded though, if you start that particular arms race.
you at least have the option of changing them at state level or moving to a state you like better.
A fair old chunk of people who will need abortion won’t have that luxury at all, as well as not being able to afford to travel across one or possibly two states to get an abortion. This is just another “on yer bike” statement.
Indeed, the “option” to go out of state all depends on the power, wealth and control of each woman.
Indeed, the “option” to go out of state all depends on the power, wealth and control of each woman.
Ah, but that’s the American dream. A persons value is directly proportionate to their bank balance, with the usual modifiers of which genitalia or skin colour they possess being extremely important if that number is small, but less important if that number is large.
The abortion decision has been pushed down to State level, but the gun control decision has removed State controls.
V8ninety is very much correct here. This will further fragment the pro-life and pro-choice states. Think of US more like Europe than a single country where womens reproductive right can vary widely from (until recently) no abortion in Ireland to our progressive views. Essentially states have widely different policies on many things, healthcare, gun rights, taxation etc… it’s a great and terrible country at the same time…depending where you are!
Also looks like gay marriage is next in the sights.
the “option” to go out of state all depends on the power, wealth and control of each woman.
When the likes of Texas right to life set up websites to grass up women suspected of having an abortion the "option" becomes even more limited.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/07/texas-abortion-whistleblower-website-forced-offline
I’m all for devolving the decision making down to the most local level. How about leaving the decision down to each individual woman to make the difficult choice for themselves?
In theory yes. But are you OK with an abortion performed at 8 months?
It should also be noted that during Democratic presidencies, when family planning clinics tend to be better funded, there are far less terminations than when the republicans are in charge. Creating a caring and supportive environment for women to make decisions is pro life. The campaigns which hypocritically label themselves as "pro-life" are actually campaigns of hatred and death,
"Roe v Wade: US Supreme Court strikes down abortion rights https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-6192889 8"
well no they didn't. They said that the legality of abortion is state not federal. That means it is up to the individual states to choose.
well no they didn’t
Yes they did, if it is a right as it was before today, the individual states can't legislate that right away, the SC took away that right.
What a desperately backward country.
In theory yes. But are you OK with an abortion performed at 8 months?
Except that’s so absolutely, vanishingly aware as to basically not be a thing and is just dog whistle language. The vast, vast majority of abortions happen <13weeks gestation, with rare late term abortions happening between 13 and 24weeks. Later than that are incredibly rare, and will most likely be because of medical emergencies.
Gilead here we come.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-61898437
This is why religious people should be dosqulified from offoce ( not specifically this case but in general) because they are unable to perform their duties because they do not answet to the people but hold whatever backward creed higher than their duty to serve
At 8 months a foetus is viable. It would not be an abortion. It would be a cesarean
Predictably Tory peers, pro brexit think tanks and even Tory MP celebrating this
https://twitter.com/Direthoughts/status/1540355459923804160?t=mYioNiPdq3AfVZ3WZVWulg&s=19
https://twitter.com/JN75313083/status/1540399885165420545?t=52LasFuCDli9WV2pbvdJpw&s=19
https://twitter.com/danielmgmoylan/status/1540361915590918145?t=k0us5HojfeoW8xc50ch9oQ&s=19
https://twitter.com/TPointUK/status/1540368131499122689?t=xi7oYIAtWo23GAl8kWdEtA&s=19
Creating a caring and supportive environment for women to make decisions is pro life
Yes it is odd how these people who are allegedly anti abortion are also generally anti sex education and access to contraceptives.
If you want to lower abortion rates as opposed to putting lives at risk in back streets or, for the wealthy (aka the republicans mistresses and daughters), going to somewhere with more sensible laws then the best approach is making sure teenagers are properly educated and have access to contraceptives.
85% of us citzens support abortion.
Make no mistake. These religious zealots are after our rights as well. My particular issue is the right to a good death. Its 99% religious bigots opposing this hidden behind a secular acreen.
Religion has no place in politics and they can eff off with thier attempts to make me fit their backwards superstition
We bemoan Johnson and the tories a lot, but even they would struggle to do what the republicans can in the US, even when they’re not in power!
But by eroding our right to protest, making it harder to vote, and creating a retrogressive bill-of-rights, and making the executive more powerful than parliament, we are already on the road to the tories being able to do what we see happening in the US
we are already on the road to the tories being able to do what we see happening in the US
100% agree
In theory yes. But are you OK with an abortion performed at 8 months?
It wasn’t me you asked, but I would be ok with that. 9 months even.
As a species we are not suffering with infertility. (Separate from the issue of individuals wishing for children but unable to have them)
Forcing people to have unwanted babies is bad for all involved.
How much does it cost to give birth in the US a these days?
At 8 months the fetus is viable and it would be a live birth unless the fetus is alreadt dead
Exactly, abortions, by their very nature are of pre viable pregnancies. Talk of 8 month abortions, of killing ‘babies’ etc, is deliberately emotive and inaccurate language designed to create an emotional response in people who haven’t got a full understanding, or to dog whistle those who have already fallen for the bigotry.
Don’t tolerate the bullshit. Abortions are principally performed on pre viable pregnancies, and are not ‘Killing babies’ or ‘tearing babies from the wombs of their mothers’ or any other emotive, loaded clap trap.
Everything about it stinks. Right from the appointment of those judges- Kavanaugh said, under oath,
“It is important precedent of the Supreme Court that has been reaffirmed many times. It is not as if it is just a run of the mill case that was decided and never been reconsidered, but Casey specifically reconsidered it, applied the stare decisis factors, and decided to reaffirm it. That makes Casey a precedent on precedent.” Gorsuch said that if he was asked to overturn Roe he'd walk out the door. Roe was obviously in their sights from the word go, and they lied their way through the confirmation hearings to get there.
poah
Free Memberwell no they didn’t. They said that the legality of abortion is state not federal. That means it is up to the individual states to choose.
Therefore striking down abortion rights. You're an intelligent person, do you really think what you posted is true?
One key difference between the USA and Afghanistan is that the yanks are more tolerant of drink-driving.
How many foetuses per year are ripped from the womb as a result of DUI’s?
If they’re so pro-life, why not devote more effort towards making Americas roads safer?
It is basically two America's as stated earlier in this thread, you have those states that are true red states that will enact this immediately, they already have it drafted and ready to go, that is how sure they were it was coming, the seeds planted by Trumps administration and just awaiting this supreme court judgement.
The blue states will never enact this, they will keep their pro-abortion laws, i can see a lot of people moving states in the coming years, probably what the red states want, less people who aren't aligned to their principles.
It's sad to see that in the US, after several horrific gun massacres, they can't enact any new laws, yet with this issue, they already have it all ready to go, the one thing we do have in the UK is separation of powers that are actually still separated, how the US can pretend their branches are separate is an absolute joke, their judiciary is aligned politically to their parties and their houses, i know we have right wing nutters in the UK who scream and shout for this stuff, but they haven't got us in that kind of problem yet.
Personally, I think it’s all just a labour-supply issue.
These unwanted kids will hardly be earmarked for Yale.
Which crappy sector of the economy is facing a shortfall in staff, 20 years down the line? Hmmm.
But are you OK with an abortion performed at 8 months?
I’m not likely to ever have an abortion.
Are there scenarios where a woman might chose a near term abortion? When the alternative is a still born birth, or the choice is between one death or possibly two, then that horrible choice might have to be made. I feel nothing but sympathy for any woman in that situation.
But taking rare and difficult scenarios as reasoning for restricting the rights of a whole swath of the population isn’t for me. I’ll pass on what you’re offering, thanks.
All the talk of 8 month abortions is just weird, currently in the US you have most states allowing first trimester abortions and then rules for second, and even more for third.
Honestly, how many women go 8 months and then suddenly think “oh wait a minute”, they tend to think adoption, not abortion, I also doubt there are many medical professionals who would contemplate such a procedure due to the Hippocratic oath.
Being reported that in Wisconsin, cancer treatments that would risk the life of an unborn child have been ordered stopped with immediate effect.
Of course it doesn't end here. Clarence Thomas is already saying that the next targets are contraception access and same-sex intercourse. People are picking up on the gay marriage comments but he specifically mentioned Lawrence vs Texas, which is the ruling that decriminalised sodomy.
He's basically Alito's glove puppet, nothing he says is in isolation. What these have in common is that they're all due process precedents. The right to privacy (Griswold) is another that he specifically named. And an absolute shit-ton of precedent relies on that right to privacy.
The written decision says that this ruling is specific to abortion, but the legal argument that it rests on applies just the same to literally every legal right that wasn't already commonplace when the constitution was written. It undermines their data protection act completely, it applies equally to miscegenation laws... The law that gave Clarence Thomas the right to marry his seditionist wife was entirely informed and largely justified by the due process clauses.
I usually get angry about stuff, my reaction to this was different... i was overtaken by deep deep sadness.
Supreme Court twinned with the Taliban.
I have always been on the fence about abortion. It is probably a timing thing but even that doesn't really add up as still killing what is a human being in early stages. Clearly it sounds a lot worse to kill a baby at 8 months than at 8 weeks but that same baby is still a baby that would be born at some time later.
I can see the rights the of woman, why should they have to go through with a pregnancy they don't want (especially in the extreme cases, i.e. rape, where they really didn't want it) but killing a baby just because you don't want it also doesn't seem great. Can I kill a 4 year old because I don't want it anymore?
The thing that stuck me is that as many as 26 states have trigger laws waiting for this. It's an astonishingly stupid act of harm to women. All the evidence shows that there is a need for safe abortion. All that will happen is removal of the word safe. The will kill people.
There are a HUGE number of reasons people get abortions. It's a hugely emotive subject. In the UK you can legally have an abortion upto 10 weeks and 6 days. So what's that's under 3 months.
I would assume anything over that limit would require a court judgement as that limit is set in law.
But let's say you cannot afford to support a child either financially, emotionally or in some other way. Surely it's better for all involved, including the fetus, that people aren't forced to have a baby that's not wanted. Worst case scenario the baby would be unsafe and at massive risk. Best case scenario it's put into the adoption system, which I would imagine, like the rest of government or locally funded services, is falling apart at the seams.
Either way people should be allowed to make that choice, without prejudice.
Also Thomas the conservative judge who has a hinted that same sex marriage, contraceptives and anal sex may also be the next targets, cannot surely be blind to that fact that the sorts of folks who would support these changes will also be keen on targeting other areas such as interracial marriages. He is black and his wife is white.
It makes so little sense that it rally could be described as madness
So rather than leaving it up to wvery woman do decide if the cast majority are under 13 weeks we can have laws outlawing late term abortions aside from risk to life of mother etc.
I don't think we disagree much but leaving it entirely to the choice of the woman regardless is going too far.
I would really like to see an abortion movement akin to #metoo. All those women in the lives of the politicians who have had abortions standing up and saying they had one, they benefited from a safe procedure. Would surely be embarrassing for quite a few?
leaving it entirely to the choice of the woman regardless is going too far.
This is their bodies we’re talking about. Who else should get a say?
the one thing we do have in the UK is separation of powers that are actually still separated,
We MUST NOT be complacent about this. We are dancing along the edge of the same slippery slope.
The current Tory party would throw everything they have behind an ant-abortion movement if they thought it gave them one more day in power or another pound in their pockets.
We must not be fooled by any of their lies, the ONLY reason this isn't policy is because the people supporting it haven't lined Johnson's pockets enough.
Yet.
There's a world of difference between electively aborting an 8 week foetus and 8 month baby. The first is totally unviable without the mother, many babies are born at 8 months and are completely healthy.
Anyone conflating the two is doing so disingenuously, Biden was right this is a sad day for America and all about me, it's various intolerant bigots feeling good about themselves because they've managed to stop some one from doing something that doesn't affect them personally. Probably already been said but there is a frightening overlap between the anti abortionists and the gun nuts. Can't kill an unviable foetus but it's fine to enable an unstable 18 year old to go on a killing spree.
Is anyone really surprised by this? I mean really? The US has a track record of retrograde decisions that have originated from their religious zealotry.
Unfortunately, I think the worst is yet to come. Biden is the death knell and if him and Harris try for a second term, I suspect it’ll be clear road to the White House for Trump.
I’ve always said the US is a developing nation, with third world infrastructure.
The real problem is that this won’t change the number of abortions. It we’ll reduce the number of safe abortions. I bet the back street clicks are setting up shop as we speak in many states
Is anyone really surprised by this? I mean really?
Not in the slightest. It’s a nation run by nutters. I feel for all the normal folk that live there. The worlds premiere backwards nation.
The real problem is that this won’t change the number of abortions. It we’ll reduce the number of safe abortions
This is the tragic real world result, as my 15 year old daughter has been pointing out all week.
Not sure how that's going down at her Catholic school.....
Probably already been said but there is a frightening overlap between the anti abortionists and the gun nuts. Can’t kill an unviable foetus but it’s fine to enable an unstable 18 year old to go on a killing spree.
Those same gun nuts that say you can’t take away their constitutional rights?
argee Full Member
It is basically two America’s as stated earlier in this thread, you have those states that are true red states that will enact this immediately, they already have it drafted and ready to go, that is how sure they were it was coming, the seeds planted by Trumps administration and just awaiting this supreme court judgement.The blue states will never enact this, they will keep their pro-abortion laws, i can see a lot of people moving states in the coming years, probably what the red states want, less people who aren’t aligned to their principles.
Then there are states that lie somewhere between blue and red, but which thanks to the Republican party's highly effective gerrymandering skills have will be able to enact strong anti abortion legislation anyway. And it's not like that even the reddest states contain nothing but frothing fundamentalists, but they seem to be the ones in charge anyway.
This tweet nails it for me
https://twitter.com/kellie_priceles/status/1540357699992539142?t=nxVcuM-D-QPfmCrt9bblpw&s=19
My lad went to the World Scout Jamboree in America in 2019, and he was clear there were two distinct types of Americans, and he couldn’t see how the two could coexist
Thank god that'd never happen here, hey?
In theory yes. But are you OK with an abortion performed at 8 months?
Aside from it being an utterly ludicrous question,
If the only alternative was to carry to term resulting in the death of both child and mother then yes, I'd be OK with that. Would you not?
This is their bodies we’re talking about. Who else should get a say?
</thread>
A comment from a highly intelligent (yes they exist) American friend of mine:
Strictly speaking we didn't ban abortion- we just abolished the right to it.
From a court where 5 of the 9 justices were appointed by presidents who lost the popular vote. And where 2/3 of Americans don't believe abortion should be illegal.
Honestly, I think the actual answer is that they hate actual, born children.
That was in reply to a post I made on Faceache broadly saying what Stumpyjon just said:
America, you know I love you, but we need to talk. Your solution to shootings in schools is "more guns" and now you've just banned abortion.
Are you scared you're going to run out of targets or something?
If I were a betting man, I'd wager my house that the Venn diagram of pro-lifers and pro-NRA tends towards a perfect bloody circle.