[Closed] Masts - Felling

There's felling in commercial forestry all of the time (lots going on near me). That doesn't have to detract from the trails- unless they're built at tree-top height of course.

There’s felling in commercial forestry all of the time (lots going on near me). That doesn’t have to detract from the trails- unless they’re built at tree-top height of course.

I guess depends on the extent of the felling. This sounds like it's more than just a bit of thinning. The machinery churns up trails and the lack of trees changes the character of trails dramatically.

It's a commercial forest. The trees grow to maturity and then they are removed. These are unofficial trails.

Local riding groups could be working with the fellers to help minimise disturbance and to restore the trails where possible.

Shame, I was planning on finally checking them out once the new bike build is finished. May have to wait til it recovers then.

Wot scotroutes says - this is a commercial tree farm

The problem is basically about benefits and who sees them. A good riding area quite often will bring in more financial benefit than harvesting the trees will, but the owner of the land doesn't usually see any of it.

Bikes and felling can coexist pretty well but it's obviously less likely with clearfells and with unofficial trails.

I'm with scotroutes an TJ on this. Happens all the time in Scotland.

If it's left unharvested, it's worth bearing in mind that commercially grown trees probably have a finite life and will start dying/falling over. The neat forest you have is because it's been carefully gardened by the foresters throughout its life.

If the impact on the local community is so bad, then why not offer to buy the trees/forest?

I totally agree that it's a commercial forest, my reason for posting is I'm sure Charlie from Welsh Gravity Enduro has seen felling/thinning before and how quite often trails can recover pretty quickly. I assumed the plans were pretty severe.

I can't seem to find any info on NRW about the plan for the area. With the FC if you dig around you can usually find ~30 year plans for forests managed by them.

If the felling coverage is too high then it's basically 30 years to recover properly, potentially with areas closed off for years as they are restocked.

I’m sure I’ve read about this happening elsewhere before 🤔

Mark the stumps and roots with ground marking paint and very often it's just a case of hauling off brash with much of the trail left behind. You'll inevitably lose some stuff. It's a pain, but rarely the end of the world.

The insta post does sound overly dramatic. Not sure how businesses would close down because some unofficial trails go out of action. Tourism, well again these are unofficial. The tourists aren't going here, they're going to official places. The majority at least.

Obviously there's an impact on Enduro business that uses it and guide companies, but if their business depends just on one location and it's unofficial stuff which could go at any time, then risky business to be in.

I think it hurts more as The Masts are pretty iconic trails.

Felling is inevitable. Those are not natural forests or natural trees.

What's important is that NRW and the contractors appreciate the value of the trails and take care (and spend the time and money) to preserve them.

I'd not heard of these trails tho. I might have to go over and take a look whilst I can.

What’s important is that NRW and the contractors appreciate the value of the trails and take care (and spend the time and money) to preserve them.

NRW around Swansea and Gower really don't like bikes. There are several places around here with big signs saying that bikes aren't allowed, including Baglan Forest, one of the hills that connects to Masts. (The sign actually warns walkers to look out for bikers, and then that the forest is out of bounds for bikers. No reason for it really - once you are on to the trails you rarely see a walker.)

Commercial forest that kindly lets mtbers ride and build trails on the land. We should be thanking them not trying to disrupt their business.

I agree it will be a great shame to lose these trails but also agree that it is a commercial forest after all so v much up to NRW when the trees get felled. Seems a shame that there couldn't be some safeguards put in place to preserve some of the trails without unduly affecting the felling operations.

As for anyone who wants to ride them in the meantime, they are some of the best trails I have ridden in the UK. Anyone who hasn't been there should give it a go in the short time before they're gone (assuming the felling work goes ahead). Be prepared for a long hard slog to the top and some v steep trails back to the bottom.

Interesting to hear the term "commercial forest". Sure, but it's still NRW managed land, NRW being a public body, making these forests kind of er, public property? Of course it needs managing for the long term sustainability, and health of the forests. Felling and thinning is a part of that. I'm pretty sure NRW will work with local riders to keep the trails going and do the work sympathetically. But what hits hard about this is that all the other stuff in this sport, all the expensive bikes, the two-and-a-half-grand pairs of carbon wheels, the new waterproofs we all look at at this time of year, the tyres, the grips, the lovely shoes, these websites we all follow, the fitness, the joy we get from riding, the whole MTB lifestyle. It all means precisely F*** all without trails.

It's a crop, it will be harvested.

The felling date information will I'm fairly sure have been visible in publicly available data called the sub-compartment database for many years on FC, gov.uk and NRW websites

http://lle.gov.wales/catalogue/item/NRWWoodlandSubCompartmentData/?lang=en

I'm a forestry civil engineer. Scanning the above posts Epicyclo makes the most salient point. Trees reach an age or height were they start blowing over. Unfortunately in a commercial forest, all trees are of the same age, so this happens in quite quick order, unlike in a natural forest where only a proportion of trees are reaching critical or terminal height at any time.

The trails will be damaged because 40 years ago someone planted a load of conifers, and little can be done about it.

Interesting insight Waderider, never thought of it from this point of view.

Would anyone dream of going to a farmer and asking them to put their combine harvester away, as you like the way a wheat field looks?
This is no different, it's a tree farm.

Is there a local trail building / MTB-ers association that could talk to the landowner about the possibility of minimising destruction of trails? Or just to arrange new trail building once the felling is complete?

It's really sad, doubly so because 'Masts' are unofficial so I guess won't be rebuilt by the NRW maintenance crew, but I've got to file it under 'that's life'.

I don't know if the felling is because it's due, or because of the larch disease, but they've been tearing the arse out of South Wales forests for more than a decade now, this is nothing new.

You might argue they're hacks who rip out the 'wrong' trees and leave a massive mess behind, because they are. You might argue they're going after easy targets, namely the forests that have good road access for getting the stuff out which they do.

The NRW seems to be able to get trails reopened 1-3 months after they've left, sometimes it's just a case of sweeping them, sometimes they have to rebuild sections, often with new features, there's no reason why masts can't reopen, I guess it will need some volunteers though.

Trails ain't the same with no trees.

Would anyone dream of going to a farmer and asking them to put their combine harvester away, as you like the way a wheat field looks?
This is no different, it’s a tree farm.

No, but it isn't just a tree farm. It's an area used to walkers, runners , horse riders and cyclists for recreation, just like many other forests around the UK.

Business at any cost just doesn't seem right.

Trails ain’t the same with no trees.

Yep, and in South Wales we better get used to it.

Majority of large wooded areas / forests are NRW run, maybe it's 'normal' but they've harvested all the official riding places in the last few years and quite a few of the places there's a lot of 'tolerated' riding.

The smaller woods with native tress are generally Woodland Trust or privately owned, you might find cheeky trails, but they'd be removed it found.

NRW don't seem to be in the business of growing millions of Larch tress anymore. A few places harvested 10+ years ago (Penhydd area of Afan and a few tiny spots at Cwmcarn for example) have been replanted, but for the most part they plan to let them re-grow 'naturally' with native trees, but their MO at Cwmcarn, Afan, Forest Fawr seems to be to harvest the native hard wood trees at the same time as the Larch. Pre-cut they employ people to mark various tress, I guess to preserve them, but the generally leave nothing standing.

In fairness the official trails they've rebuilt in the last couple of years have been good, more features built in to make use of the space etc, but it's not the same.

kiksy - neither is a wheat field Just a wheat farm - its also someones view, its also where people walk and cycle.

Sorry dude barking up the wrong tree here. This is trails allowed on a commercial farm.

The countryside is not a playground - its where people workand earn money

In the time I have been going to glentress large parts have been harvested and that is sanctioned and legally built trails

Isn't this just the Life Cycle of the trail?

Trails get destroyed, new trails appear. I actually like this, it gives us new stuff to ride, new stuff to build, it's change, but it can (and generally is) a good thing?

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Isn’t this just the Life Cycle of the trail?

Trails get destroyed, new trails appear. I actually like this, it gives us new stuff to ride, new stuff to build, it’s change, but it can (and generally is) a good thing?

Yes, this is how I look at it nowadays. Often better views, rather than just a load of trees and I actually often prefer more “open” riding. Less trees for me to hit when it all goes wrong, too.

The countryside definitely IS my playground, I'm playing in it right now! Anyone who thinks public forests, managed by a public sector organisation, are no different to a farmers field of wheat? Well, good luck with that, you're entitled to your opinion. But don't go sniffing round other people's playgrounds once the hard works been done!

The countryside is not a playground – its where people workand earn money

I guess that's not how I see things or how I think things should be. Maybe I'm silly but the world should be a playground first, and a way to make money second.

It would be more tolerable if the rest of the UK had Scottish style access rights I suppose.

Really kiksy - if it was not a working environment there would be very few paths - most of the countryside would be covered in dense scrub and bracken

Its someones workplace first.

I think the major concern is that NRW used to fell 5% of their estate per year, now its 15% In all the years of riding ive never seen the rate of felling we are seeing now. If larch disease is causing an increased rate (which i feel is just a money maker for them) why chop other bits just to burn. NRW are a corrupt organisation, just google them

Can't say I'm hugely surprised about this, but I find the reaction to be a bit over the top imo.

Sure masts is great and probably iconic in some ways, but half of the good spots in wales have been felled over the last few years and they're all still going strong. Risca, Loamworld, Ponty, Rheola and more have all been hit but are currently better than ever.

Besides, Masts was always a bit wiggly on 800mm bars, NRW are just getting with the times and understanding the needs of modern bikes...

if it was not a working environment there would be very few paths

I've not been to this particular trail but in general these Valleys trails are created usually from nothing by MTBers. It's a good way to avoid trail conflict actually because they end up being trails no walker would want to use, but they're great MTB trails.

(which i feel is just a money maker for them)

Phytophthora Ramorum will infect and kill over 150 species of plant. They are legally required to fell larch infected by it.

The reason for felling being given, is to remove Dothostroma infected pine. The Masts will never recover I fear, the hill is very exposed to weather and wind (it's the first thing that weather fronts hit as they roll off the sea into the Afan Valley) and it will be very bleak without the trees. It's a huge hit to the local riding scene and detrimental to the local economy. The Masts was bringing an ever increasing number of riders to the area.

I suppose it's easy to just brush it off as a crop of commercial woodland, but the Masts has given a lot to mountain biking in the UK over the last two decades if you know your history of trails, these were the original steep tech stuff, that were being ridden 20 years ago (before the official trails in the valley) and have helped produce World class enduro and downhill riders. It's shit. Sign the petition, it won't do anything but maybe it will raise an eyebrow.

The Masts will never recover I fear, the hill is very exposed to weather and wind (it’s the first thing that weather fronts hit as they roll off the sea into the Afan Valley)

And yet it's covered in trees. If they grew once then they can grow again.

Partially covered. From experience NRW idea of replanting is hardly thorough or thought out. They will leave the hill desemated, and I think that is one of the major issues people have with deforestation in this area. They come in and scar the landscape with minimum aftercare or clean up operation.

rob8624

They come in and scar the landscape with minimum aftercare or clean up operation.

There's a reason they leave it like that, and it's not slackness or cheap skating.

I'll leave it to an expert to explain.

Thinning and clear felling are unfortunately part of commercial forest managment. The biggest isdue i have with this is that its usually sub contracted out to firms on piece rate who will harvest without any regard for the trails. Privately owned woodland are usually felled way better. With damage to the hill minimised and much less scrub left.
Discussion with the land owner and GPS of all routes could result in minimising the forwarder damage?

without any regard for the trails

You mean trails that are built without any regard for the land owners management objectives / legal responsibilities?

I looked at the management plans and (assuming I'm in the right area) the hillside is predominantly pine and larch which are infected with Dothistroma and Ramorum respectively, and has large pockets of windblow (they've planned in open space around the top of the mast). It's pretty clear the the crop is compromised on multiple fronts.

You only need to watch a video of the mast trails to see the amount of windblow and fallen deadwood present which is only going to get worse. If NRW don't fell it then it's going to fall over and the trails will be lost anyway.

If those complaining had read NRWs wild trails policy they'd understand that the presence of the trails means NRW have a level of legal liability. The fact they know the crop is unsafe doesn't really give them much of a leg to stand on if someone gets injured. Building more trails and making the sites more popular only increases the pressure on NRW to act - and the only financially viable way is mechanised felling (but could be hand felling + winching if on steep ground).

Perhaps instead of self-entitled melodrama someone should just ask NRW what the plan is - perhaps someone who runs gravity enduro's on NRW land instead of starting unsubstantiated insta****fests.

.Sign the petition, it won’t do anything but maybe it will raise an eyebrow.

It will only raise eyebrows the wrong way, making mtbers look childish selfish and ignorant, especially if the felling is related to tree disease and not just routine harvest/windblow prevention. Try engaging with land managers in a positive way instead, look at Tweed Valley TA etc.

"Perhaps instead of self-entitled melodrama someone should just ask NRW what the plan is – perhaps someone who runs gravity enduro’s on NRW land instead of starting unsubstantiated insta****fests"

NRW don't even know what the plan is...

For someone heading to glyncorwygg this Friday and only just hearing about these trails can anyone say where they link in with the established network.

At the bottom of Zig Zags on the Wall turn right instead of left and head over the the 2 viaducts

They come in and scar the landscape with minimum aftercare or clean up operation.

Far from an expert here but the brash is left to rot down and return nutrients to the soil. Same with the stumps

Brash from spruce or larch takes a very long time to rot down. And it stops anything else from growing underneath. The needles can acidify the soil.
If you want natural regeneration of native broadleaf trees, best to remove most of the brash. Or at least stack it into piles, leaving some areas of clear ground.

Brash can be used for producing biomass fuels, so it is becoming more worthwhile to harvest it. Though that can cause more ground damage from vehicles and machines etc.

Ta Craig.

Awesome, many thanks

Not to mention the NRW got investigated for massive corruption to the highest levels of management, they were all ex-private tree feller employees who then sold the trees at lower than market price to their ex-employers or something. If the money got reinvested into the areas, in some obvious way i'd be a lot more happy with them destroying it. But as people have mentioned above the local economies suffer and all the "wealth" from the felled trees disappears into someone else pockets.

They say it incompetence but i doubt that.

Smart thing for NRW to do would be tidy up the trails, put a cafe at the bottom, call it a bike park and charge MTBers to take them back up the hill in a NRW van.

just crossing the viaducts to go there is pretty cool.

Buy the hill for mountain bikers?

Buy the hill for mountain bikers?

Certainly plausible. You'll need a very motivated group to drive it forward though and a landowner who wants to sell.

they'll still need to purchase the "crop" and clear the dying/diseased trees though.

I have a small share in this:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/mid-canterbury-selwyn/89851643/bike-methven-crowd-sources-over-100000-in-an-attempt-to-buy-mt-hutt-bike-park

If the money got reinvested into the areas

The money that the timber merchants pay NRW is essentially what funds NRW's continued management and subsidizes other parts that don't generate sufficient income (like MTB trails)?

And that's before the local contractors, local hauliers, and local sawmills are all involved (ergo local economy).

The money that the timber merchants pay NRW is essentially what funds NRW’s continued management and subsidizes other parts that don’t generate sufficient income (like MTB trails)?

And that’s before the local contractors, local hauliers, and local sawmills are all involved (ergo local economy)

If only NRW knew how to manage the MTB trails properly they'd actually make a decent amount of money out of them.
eg: Annual membership to ride on NRW trails inc Wild trails that have been adopted by local community rider groups and maintained (car parking included).

They have a plan written down on how this can all happen, only problem is there's no one in the organisation at a high level who actually knows how to implement it. Change is afoot though....

car parking

My irony meter has just died after the cannock car parking / trail mainenance thread.

It would be a shame if the trails were broken up by the felling as they provide lines that are way steeper and more technical than you'll find in your bike parks or Trail centers.
Just out of interest , how many posters on this thread have ridden the masts?

If only NRW knew how to manage the MTB trails properly

The thing is they do. It's just the self-entitlement of large parts of the MTB community means they think they can do everything better without even the most basic understand of what it entails.

eg: Annual membership to ride on NRW trails inc Wild trails

So the great idea is to charge people for something they can do for free at the moment?

Afan / Cwmcarn car parks + visitor centres aren't NRW. That's the main source of income for recreation sites - hence my point about the timber production side subsidizing other parts of the organisation.

Your more than welcome to show us 'the plan' and tell us what qualifies you to do it better tho...

Well, I'd say the "self entitled" mtb community HAS done very well at building and managing trails.
NRW received £118 million in public money in 2017-2018, that's a pretty big source of income, and I think it gives us a right to say how we want to use our forests. Every tax payer in Wales funds the organisation irrespective of logging income.
And yeah, I think people would pay for a permit to ride on NRW land, even though we can do it for free.

Sustainable - nope
Provides progression - nope
Accessible - nope
Cater to all but a small minority of users - nope
Meets various legal requirements - nope

If you poke your head out of the rad enduro bubble you would realise that (going off actaul trail usage data) 95-98% of trail use is red, blue, green - that is the mass market, that is where funding is best spent for maximum impact.

There may be more people riding off-piste now but there are more people in general riding off-road - the percentages change very little.

You may think paying taxes gives you a right but it doesn't. NRW provide an opportunity for consultation on management plans that is your opportunity to have a say but it doesn't mean they have to do what you want and there will always be other people to consider and management objectives that they need to meet - whilst not wanting to go all Brexit thread we don't live in a direct democracy - see my previous point on entitlement.

Large parts of the MTB community resent paying the parking charges that fund trail centres (irrespective of where it is) it's fascicle to think people will pay for a permit to ride and even more so that you would ever be able to enforce it.

You clearly don't ride or approve of unofficial trails, I totally respect that. The 2% will keep building them though. And I don't agree about a lack of progression, accessibility or sustainability. No ones asking for funding, never said NRW had to do what I want, just meant they should consider the public who fund them. Can't be bothered to argue about that or the politics though, it doesn't penetrate my "rad enduro bubble" (that made me laugh)! FWIW I actually think NRW do a great job on all fronts, I'm not against the felling, it's essential. But the trails in question are important and they do benefit the area, at no cost to NRW.

There is always a cost to access; it's just demonstrating a total lack of understanding saying anything different.

They are considering the 'public that fund them' - by clearing dying trees so they don't injure anyone (avoiding negligence claims which are paid from...taxes) and to establish productive habitats as per the management plan.

I'd love to see some quantitative evidence for the 'benefits' to the local area from these trails. I assume there is some as it keeps being used as an argument to keep them.

For claritys sake most of my riding is unofficial trails and I couldn't count the number of trails I've had a hand in bringing back after harvesting. I do also have a pretty good understanding of 'the bigger picture' coupled with a lack of time / interest in social media hyperbole.

Carpe Diem - I ride there every week and have done so for many years, to answer your question. They are not the best trails in Afan, but some of them, certainly one of the best riding spots in Wales. I think other off piste stuff in the valley will become even more secretive that it already is as maybe the Masts has become a victim of it's own success in a way.

sr0093193 - I kind of understand were your coming from, even though it's disappointing that some of the hill is being felled, it's not the end of the World, there are other place to ride, it's a working forest, less trees to hit, I get that. Several riding spots have been felled that local riders in South Wales have established into pretty popular spots, nobody has really kicked up a fuss. I think what you misjudge, is the lack of trust towards NRW in Wales at the moment, it's hardly a clean and clear organisation, and the amount of felling in the area does, to a lot of people (outside the mtb scene included) comes across as very excessive. The Masts should have been felled years ago, people are just asking why now? Why at it's height of popularity? You can't blame people for questioning it, even if the obvious answer is that the trees need to come down.

I think it's pretty harsh to claim Charlie is starting a 'unsubstantiated insta****fests'?......he knows the frustration riders in South Wales are facing probably better than you do when it comes to felling. All the spots at Afan, Cwmcarn, Brechfa, Loamworld, Garw, Crychan, Talybont, Pontypool, Rhondda, etc etc.....CwmRhyader is coming down this month and Barry Siddings is being felled at the start of next year. It's pretty annoying, even if it is justified and has a big impact on areas that simply wouldn't be visited if it wasn't for mountainbikers. If the pen pushers at NRW don't a petition then so be it.

And also, The Masts have been around long before Enduro was cool bro and long before the Instagram generation. Local riders have been working with NRW very closely over many years to keep the trails running, it's not just some free for all area of woodland. Read my earlier post. That's what hurts a tad, they are iconic trails to a lot of people that are a part of the history of mountain biking in Afan, which itself has played a big role in mountain biking over the years 🙂

Also, the main carpark (free) used for the Masts is NRW is is full every weekend.

There's quite simple reasons why lots of sites seem to go at once - 1) ramorum has decimated larch in the western half of the UK 2) mature crops are favoured for their ease to build in which also means they are likely to be felled around the same time.

Almost every criticism is covered in the management plan from the misrepresentations about them felling 15% of the area to the reasons why normal operations have been largely put on hold for so long.

https://cdn.naturalresources.wales/about-us/what-we-do/welsh-government-woodland-estate/afan-forest-resource-plan/?lang=en

The information is freely available how much more transparent can they be.

It's great that people are passionate about this kind of stuff but they should at least educate themselves or ask if they don't understand.

The social media posts were turgid tabloidesque melodrama and merely act as a vehicle to perpetuate people's own interpretations and uninformed opinions. Some of the narrative being pushed was just outright nonsense.

your trails are doomed with your attitude

listen to sr0093193!

This thread has been a really interesting read. I can appreciate it sucks to lose valued trails but being in a managed forest makes that inevitable at some point.
My wider concern (even being in another country) is that landowners and managers are going to link this case to themselves and think “wouldn’t it just be easier to discourage all trail use now rather than having to deal with all this BS in 5-10-20 years when the crop is due?”

He does make some very valid points but also makes some massive assumptions.

Speccyguy: I doubt NRW will be too worried, it's 70 odd posts on a forum, not like people are chaining themselves to the trees! And there's not many people really opposing what they do, or people really believing unofficial trail building will ever stop. It's an important debate for our sport, far more relevant than 29vs27.5 or how LLS is too LLS! Trail building/access is what will really determine the future of the sport, so it's good to see the various opinions on this.

Just come across this reply from NRW to the local Welsh Assembly member. It states that the felling will occur December to March, and includes a map of the area to be felled.

https://www.davidrees.wales/en/foel-tree-felling-nrw-response/

Over 5000 people signed a petition created by a young lad who rides the masts, shared by WGES and reached 160,000 people, Local Am has got involved. NRW must now surely see that the adoption of Wild trails by local community groups is the only way forward (following their own guidelines). Felling has to happen, that's a given.
Being the most knowledgeable person on a forum and quietly revelling in it will never ever get anything done.
Melodrama is sometimes required to make people react. Politics rule the world, play the game...

I think landowners (in addition to and including NrW) will be pleased to read this thread and see some very well informed views. My concern is with the social media / petitions aspect which could make an unconnected landowner feel it is easier to disallow access to their land completely today instead of dealing with this kind of hassle in future.

It’s a crop. If we’re lucky to get unofficial access then we should be mindful which sectors we build in and for how long it will remain in use.

I understand it may be different in the uk. Here we have more space than anyone could ever need and not really any tradition of building/armouring trails. Just lots and lots of natural tracks so that none would be sorely missed when a sector gets harvested.

What's the current state of the Masts trails?

Still rideable , the lines into some have had to be modified after the road was upgraded. Personally I avoid it during weekdays. Rode it a fortnight ago without seeing many up there.

All good to ride. Trees coming down end of January, supposidly.

Might head over there mid Christmas. Been riding risca a lot and fancy something different. Not massively familiar with the area. Is the previously mentioned over the two viaducts the most detailed directions?! If anyone fancies offering a bit more that would be amazing!

double post

PM me you email address and I can ping you over some routes we've done there in the past. Also been riding Risca a fair bit lately so perhaps we can swap notes 🙂

Little vid one of our group made there the first time we went