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Sitting here at work, attempting to alleviate the boredom somewhat by listening to some music on my phone and the random shuffle has popped up some Smiths. I have three or four Smiths albums, but I have a nagging doubt/guilt about enjoying it now, given that Mozza is becoming an increasingly far-right nut-job.
I get same doubts about Michael Jackson (three amazing albums, but unproven-but-probable kiddie-fiddler) and even Phil Spector produced stuff (amazingly innovative Wall of Sound production, but, well, a murderer).
Is this Gaurdian-reading-wet-liberal-hand-wringing too far on my part, or not?
Do you want to be in my gang?
Ooh, you are awful...
Funny in Joker (the film) they use "Rock N Roll Part II" by that paedo fella with the big quiff. And it sounded brilliant!
Personally, I can separate the artiste from the human wrong'un, so will listen to anything that I was already into. I mean morrissey's politics? WGAF. Apparently Iggy was a right misogynist, I read a biography that's sole intent seemed to be to put people off him! - but my life wouldn't have been the same without his music.
Nope, just the fake sound of progress.
What happens to the sings rights in these cases? Do the bands/lable have a gross misconduct clause to fire them or do they keep getting royalty cheques?
I think my oppinion would be diffrrent if I felt like I was giving them money.
My personal rule is it's OK to listen to MJ from before he probably got dodgy, so up to Bad.
Yes it's handy that co-incides with when he went shit, but I don't make the rules.
Oh yes, I do actually. Sorry.
Michael Jackson?
I prefer to take positives from everyone, otherwise people who don't meet your moral framework become 'other, non people' that is a dangerous road.
I was obsessed with the Smiths in the 80's. Won't listen to them now. Can only guess that Morrissey was always a bit like he is now but wasn't talking about it. I realise that it is common for people to become a bit more right wing as they age but he is taking the piss.
I don't think anyone would listen to any of the Lost Prophets music.
MJ is difficult one, mainly because we are talking about the biggest selling solo artist of all-time. Its difficult to erase that, even if you really wanted too.
I have a similar conundrum with the acting of Kevin Spacey. I mean he is absolutely sublime in LA Confidential and American Beauty, early seasons of House of Cards are similarly good.
But you know turns out he's a horrible creepy bastard?
So you know conflicted. If anything its harder with actors as there is more of them in a film than a 5 minute song , if that makes sense.
The Who with Pete Townshend are still touring (although in the USA protesters often picket the gigs), but I won't listen to them anymore, makes me a bit queasy............
I think my oppinion would be diffrrent if I felt like I was giving them money
This is what surprised me about Gary Glitter in the film. Does he get royalties for that? They should've used something else if so - Plenty of other tracks would've worked.
I don’t think anyone would listen to any of the Lost Prophets music.
This
I still listen to The Smiths as he is just a bit of a headcase with extreme views. Ian Watkins is on a completely different level (as is Gary Glitter).
I don’t think anyone would listen to any of the Lost Prophets music.
Indeed, it's an issue for me. Been to see them live a few times and loved their music... but since, well, you know.... they've not been played.
Michael Jackson - society had a massive part in making him who he was - massive and 'suffocating' fandom from a very early ago - completely not allowed to have a normal life. See the Joker film...
Kevin Spacey - no such history.
In soul/funk music there are loads of dogy characters...
Roger Waters he’s a just plain wrong. Makes it hard to listen anything Pink Floyd
Hmm. That STW playlist maybe needs updated...
Ian Watkins is on a completely different level (as is Gary Glitter).
Although when people are that revolting, it's hard to compare, I think Watkins is on another level to Gadd.
I don’t think anyone would listen to any of the Lost Prophets music.
I saw them on one of the NME tours years ago. Proud to say I tried to get near to the singer to shout abuse at how shit they were - that his Mike Patton impression was pathetic. Couldn't get close enough for him to hear me though, as he was literally surrounded by young girls. Very sad looking back. Hopefully they were a bit above his preferred age range.
This is what surprised me about Gary Glitter in the film. Does he get royalties for that?
He did if the front pages of the tabloids yesterday are to be believed.
I don't really have any moral issue with the Smiths. I've always thought they were shit, self-indulgent navel-gazing dreary toss. As my mother once described them, "music to cut your wrists too." I shall cheerfully carry on not listening to them now that Morrissey has revealed himself to be the weapons-grade shitbag I always suspected he was.
Gary "up the" Glitter similarly, was never particularly a fan so meh.
Michael Jackson, I guess we'll never know for sure but I'm inclined to think he was innocent. He was rich, famous and downright weird so that made him an easy target. I don't think he liked the company of kids because he was a nonce but rather because he was only 14 mentally himself.
Lost Prophets can get in the sea.
What has Roger Waters done?
I like quite a lot of Kanye Wests music. He is one of the biggest bellends on the planet but not, as far as I am aware, actually a wrong'un. I do struggle with this.
Having this dilemma with Die Antwoord at the moment. I don't see anything wrong with listening to music you like no matter how repulsive the people who made it turn out to be.
My problem is that every time it plays on my spotify they get a fraction of a penny.
Dodgy politics is one thing. Sexual assualt / kiddy fiddling another altogether.
trouble is where do you stop? Bill Wyman? Pete Townsend? John Peel?
Lost Prophets I never knew as a band. Micheal Jackson, John Peel and The Who were a part of my youth and an important part
Its not something I have an answer to
Put the Guardian away IHN - Morrissey (peace be upon him) is the opposite of a wrong un. He could spend the rest of his life making crabby arlarse comments about a society he no longer understands, and it wouldn't have one millionth of the impact his songwriting and music have on generations of people. To this day.
Save your opprobrium for the obvious wrong'uns who've actually done terrible crimes, in and out of music.
I prefer listening to Marr singing Smiths songs now.
Morrissey’s solo stuff still gets played here a lot though, even stuff that with hindsight has very challenging lyrics. But then, we can read books written by people proposing what they think is some kind of utopia, but we see as positively dystopian, yes? Words from someone who’s world view you find diametrically opposed to your own can be interesting and rewarding, especially fiction.
I had a Lost Prophets song (a Cure cover) in my collection, a deleted it the day I found out about the details of the lead singers crimes. His works and name should be deleted from history, in my opinion.
I'm another who's walking the line between separating the man and the usic - becuase to date, it's ALL been men.
Lostprophets is the one I struggle with most - I loved their albums and vile as Watkins is, he was only the singer and the band is more than just the singer. Still haven;t listened to their music since we found out though
got to feel for the rest of the band (who apparently didn’t have a clue). 15 years of work that will probably never be listened to again by most, let alone ever heard on the radio.His works and name should be deleted from history.
If you refuse to listen to music because the singer is a jerk then you end up with a very short list of people to listen to.
Another person I have trouble with is Ian Botham. a hero to the younger me. Now an apologist for hunting which I loathe. I think that makes him a bellend now but does not diminish from his exploits
Same with Morrisey - allways an utter bellend but dodgy politics does not invalidate him unless he steps over a line to racism or similar and more importantly uses his music to promote this sort of view
Jackson was both a victim and a perpetrator which makes puts him in a very difficult space to assess
John Peel
I still listen to all his albums.
Thing is, back in the 60s/70s (maybe 80s) underage groupies were all over the bands. I just read a Kinks biog and Dave Davies admits to all kinds of stuff - they didn't know, or care the age of girls throwing themselves at them, and I very much doubt many of us would've, being put in that position (fnaar) back then. Dave Hill and GG admit to buying a house next to a girls' school (I think this was on This is Your Life?), but Slade are still going to get royalties off that Christmas song. Led Zep and all that lot - you can bet your life they weren't squeaky clean!
What about Elton John eh? Oh yeah, I forget, it's just his music that's shit and wrong.. 😆
Roger Waters he’s a just plain wrong. Makes it hard to listen anything Pink Floyd
What's the deal with Roger Waters? He doesn't strike me as a particularly nice guy and certainly not easy to get on with, but has he actually done anything bad? A very quick Google didn't turn up any mud other than the usual on-going spat with Gilmour.
Makes me laugh.... So if morrissey ultimately had these views and kept them to himself you'd be none the wiser and love his music and 'lyrics'
Yet because he has an opinion different to yours just like everyone else is entitled to on the planet you choose not to listen to them
Wow......
Not really comparable to massive paedos is it!?
What’s the deal with Roger Waters?
I read an interview with him about a year ago (Uncut mag, I think), he expressed pretty strong anti-Trump views, which the mag got letters about. Seemed ok to me. I almost had a listen to his music in response to the interview, but then realised he was an old hasbeen 😀
Luckily I never liked the Smiths.
Michael Jackson is a tricky one as it's very hard to work out fact from fiction. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt, although there is no shortage of smoke!
Pete Townshend is another difficult one for me. I certainly wouldn't let my kids anywhere near him, but again a lot of fact/fiction confusion.
But what I do find very interesting is how certain people turn out to be polar opposites from how they are portrayed by the media. John Lydon immediately springs to mind. I'd love to have a beer with him. Ozzy Osbourne seems like a great bloke too.
Although when people are that revolting, it’s hard to compare, I think Watkins is on another level to Gadd.
Agreed, but it's just degrees of evil. He still gets fan (groupie) mail from grown women too - this is something I really cannot comprehend.
Similarly what's the deal with Die Antwoord - i know nothing about them apart from the odd insane video. I assumed they weren't real people and it was all pretend...but now brucewee has got me curious?
Morrissey is simple though - hasn't done anything as good as bona drag so you don't have to listen to anything from the failed racist agitator for attention years!
If you are specifically talking about artists/composers/musicians throughout history then you'd probably find that many of them have questionable ethics especially when judged by today's standards. Personally I'd rather separate the art from the artist although whether you can call Gary Glitter's work art is a separate discussion.
I also never liked the smiths.
According to Wikipedia up to 5pc of Men are peados. [1] That's why I never eat or drink anything because a percentage of the people who work in farming/shops/water treatment are peados.
So yeah, I really don't GAF about the artist, their work is totally independent of them as people. Adolf Hitler designed the shape of the VW Beetle, I can still smile when I watch "Herbie goes Bananas" with my kids.
You can almost feel the evil staring out of it, can't you?
I used to love the lost prophets. Watched them progress from their first single. The week after Ian Watkins was sentenced there was a full collection of their albums in the charity shop. Stopped all their music since I found out.
Being a “rong’un” has produced some of the most visceral music we listen to. Maybe it’s part the make-up and part social activism of the person, and we have to give thanks for that.
Like it though ? Well, that’s only an individuals choice isn’t it.
Anyone Not like a blast of
?
Yet politically and to some degree physically a “rong’un”
Another Lost Prophets fan here who has never listened to any of their stuff since the news came out. A sad one there as the rest of the band have been royally done over by one of their own. I've got 2 signed albums back at my parent's house and am torn about what to do with them. They'll never be worth anything but both were signed after great gigs as I got to meet them as a workmate knew them from before they made it.
The Glitter song in the Joker film, that was a surprising choice but then it's used at sports games all over America to this day as they don't really know who he was/is. It's just a snippet of music used like they do with 'We Will Rock You' etc in pauses of play.
Michael Jackson? That's a harder one to call as the waters are so muddy with him. Was he a victim/perpetrator/easy tabloid target? Probably a bit of each.
I'll just judge each case on it's own merit, it's up to the record companies/film studios to sort out the financial side of things as the royalties will go to all of the people involved not just the artist in question.
It does raise a good question though, should we erase certain bits of cultural history or leave as is so that future generations can learn from it? Tough one.
Similarly what’s the deal with Die Antwoord
They are either getting a bit too into the parts they play or are actually homophobic racists and possible rapists.
Either way, they got dumped from pretty much all the festivals they were supposed to be playing this year.
Perchy, explain the pic please .... ta
🤷♂️
Agree with a lot of the above, Spacey etc. Morrissey was a particular blow as I really was a big fan of both smiths and solo stuff. Nick cave had an interesting take on it, that when the material is out there it's the listener that has ownership of it rather than the artist. Explained a lot better than I have tried to summarise there. Worth a read of you Google it.
I'll also chuck in Bono and U2, struggle to listen to these days.
Perchy, explain the pic please …. ta
It was painted by an artist by the name of Adolf Hitler.
Generally considered to be something of " a wrong 'un"
Here's another one...
You can almost feel the evil staring out of it, can’t you?
Did Jedward paint it?
Nick cave had an interesting take on it, that when the material is out there it’s the listener that has ownership of it rather than the artist.
That's fine for the days when we primarily listened to tapes, cds, and vinyl. They've already got your money and denying yourself the pleasure of listening to their music doesn't make any difference.
Now with most music being streamed you're giving them an admittedly tiny amount of money each time you listen but it all adds up.
Same with Morrisey – allways an utter bellend but dodgy politics does not invalidate him unless he steps over a line to racism or similar
You should probably do some reading, TJ. He once said that Germany was the rape capital of Europe because of all the immigrants, as a random example. There's plenty more. Oh yeah, he's a "For Britain" supporter, they're the ones that make UKIP look cuddly.
Perchy wins the internet, again
Prefer the first one. Has a nice bucolic feel if a bit derivative
The Hiter pics are a bit different. The only reason you'd take any notice of those pictures is because of who they are by. What we are talking about is music which would be accepted as good 'art' in itself but where the artist is suspect in some way.
Yet politically and to some degree physically a “rong’un”
Johnny? Go on then, explain...
Any news on Ryan Adams? Haven't been able to listen to his music since a thread on here.
What we are talking about is music which would be accepted as good ‘art’ in itself but where the artist is suspect in some way.
I don't think Hitler recorded many songs.
Although I believe his Nuremberg rap album was quite popular on the continent when it was first released.
Cougar
...
I don’t really have any moral issue with the Smiths. I’ve always thought they were shit, self-indulgent navel-gazing dreary toss.
edit - hang on, that might not work, try this one
Adolf Hitler designed the shape of the VW Beetle
No he didn't. It was Porshe and some Austrian bloke who's name I forget. Hitler just told 'em to do it.
I don’t think Hitler recorded many songs
Didn't he write 'Wir Fahren Gegen Engeland!!', or was that Goering?
cougar - my point really was talk is somewhat different to actions. Unsavoury politics is not the same as rape.
I note what you say about Morrisey tho - since he started with the far right stuff I have simply ignored him so did not realise the extent of it. Perhaps he has crossed a line?
I don’t think Hitler recorded many songs.
His signature dance was popular though. Everyone in the streets was doing it for a while.
Didn’t he write ‘Wir Fahren Gegen England!!’, or was that Goering?
Dunno......His classic " Four world cups and , you know, a score draw on the World War front come the summer, Oompah, Ooompah!" was never release due to unfortunate circumstances.
I note what you say about Morrisey tho – since he started with the far right stuff I have simply ignored him so did not realise the extent of it. Perhaps he has crossed a line?
He definitely has to my mind. I could try and google you examples but, well, I'm sure you can do that also. (-:
Didn't he once release a song about the National Front? Or have I imagined that?
He definitely has to my mind
How is it remotely relevant if you don't like the music anyway?
Adolf Hitler designed the shape of the VW Beetle
No he didn’t.
Yes he did, for sketches follow the link below and there's at least one further sketch I've seen but doesn't seem to have made it on to the Iterweb.
Hitler did a lot of graphic design work. Some more discussion of the Beetle and other symbols he came up with here:
https://ww2podcast.libsyn.com/selling-hitler
Morrisey – allways an utter bellend
This should be his strapline.
How is it remotely relevant if you don’t like the music anyway?
It isn't to me. I was talking with someone for whom it might be.
Are you here for five minutes or the full half hour?
Yes he did, for sketches follow the link below and there’s at least one further sketch I’ve seen but doesn’t seem to have made it on to the Iterweb.
Huh. I sit corrected, apologies.
He once said that Germany was the rape capital of Europe because of all the immigrants, as a random example
what an idiot - when everytone knows it is really Sweden..
"In August 2018, SVT reported that rape statistics in Sweden show that 58% of men convicted of rape and attempted rape over the past five years were immigrants born outside of the European Union"
"In March 2018, newspaper Expressen investigated gang rape court cases from the two preceding years and found that there were 43 men having been convicted. Their average age was 21 and 13 were under the age of 18 when the crime was committed. Of the convicted, 40 out of the 43 were either immigrants (born abroad) or born in Sweden to immigrant parents.[51] Another investigation by newspaper Aftonbladet found that of 112 men and boys convicted for gang rape since July 2012, 82 were born outside Europe."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden
I read that wrong for a minute and thought 58% of men in Sweden comitted rape...
Wow...
Ride of the Valkeries - everyone loves it (well except the Viet Cong). But... Wagner!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies
Off topic… but Josef Ganz and Ferdinand Porsche are the main names connected to the Beetle design. After all these years, it might be time to stop propagating propaganda about Hitler’s own contributions to the project. Airbrushing out Ganz’s work and replacing it with the idea that Hitler was the originator of the design is particularly nauseating.
Adolf Hitler designed the shape of the VW Beetle
No he didn’t. It was Porshe and some Austrian bloke who’s name I forget. Hitler just told ’em to do it.
His input is largely moot. The history of the Beetle and VW post-war is largely a positive one.
It's easy to just say Hilter was this comic baddie who enslaved his own people before trying to take over the world, but the conditions that allowed him to such power came from WW1 reparations which were, to say the least, spiteful.
Germany wanted it's version of the Model T (20 years later) as much for national pride as anything else. That's what the Beetle was for, it wasn't made to commit mass murder or form an Empire.
At the end of WW2 it would have be easy to repeat those mistakes, punish the German people with another generation (or 2) of reparations.
The VW factory was a wreck, it was a British Officer who over-saw it's repair and re-opening. It gave local people jobs, created an economy and restored some pride. It gave German some much needed exports too.
They only made about 100k Beetles pre-war and about 21.5m post. It's a loud, slow, polluting shit-box of a thing by today's standards, but for it's time it was an excellent design.
What has Roger Waters done?
Still waiting for an answer on this one. Went to see Us and them at the cinema Sunday, he seemed to push all the lefty liberal buttons. I'd love to know if I should feel guilty or not ??
The Beetle project was a way of getting more money from citizens to fund the war effort, and as a propaganda tool in the “people vs the elite” narrative Hitler depended on. No one got their “people’s car” until Hitler was taken out of the picture. It’s subsequent success and place as an international icon is a thing of joy and symbolic of the rebuilding of post war Germany… just don’t go claiming Hitler designed it.
No idea about Waters… his last album was pretty damn good… but he doesn’t exactly hide his bitterness at world politics… so if that’s not your thing… the lyrics may put you off the music.
I don’t think Hitler recorded many songs.
He's pretty good in this one
Produced of course by another wrong un
I boycotted Die Antwoord about 12 seconds into the first of their 'songs' I heard (I'd just seen Chappie) on account of the fact they're ****ing awful and they produce awful cliched toss.
Lost Prophets, I feel for the rest of the band, they're fairly local to me and whenever they come up in conversation you end up speaking to someone who knew someone, who knew someone, who knew one of them.
Apparently they were all nice Lads, including Watkins at the start. He wasn't born Evil, he was never short of Ego even before they were a band and he certainly went that way. IN the last few years of the band he was meant to be unbearable, very controlling and sadistic with it, he liked younger women and got off degrading them. Went he got into Crack everything got worse, nothing was too extreme for him. The band didn't speak or associate with him outside of performances.
A relative of mine was working at Parc Prison when he was on remand, again this is mostly rumour, but apparently he never accepted he did anything wrong, his Barrister had to convince him to plead guilty on some counts at the last possible opportunity, but only as a way to reduce his sentence and to work on an appeal. He's a nightmare prisoner, he can at least convince prisoners (and staff probably) he has the means to offer them money outside of prison to get phones etc and he's still trying to groom young women with Kids, refuses treatment etc. He's due for release in 2041, he could technically be released in 2031, but he'll have to prove remorse to the parole board and he's too arrogant to do it convincingly.
Apparently there's still a fan base, even some of his solo projects are still shared on file sharing sites, the mind boggles.
I note what you say about Morrisey tho – since he started with the far right stuff I have simply ignored him so did not realise the extent of it. Perhaps he has crossed a line?
Most definitely crossed a line. Has been nearing the line over the last 10 years or so but is now well over it. Based on that I choose not to listen to him.
What he says may not bother some of you but so what, it bothers me so I make that choice.
As long as nothing bad comes out about Mark E Smith (that I don't already know) I am still okay.
As much as I like Ian Brown I do not like that he is a stoner. Hardly a bad crime I know but it still irrates me.
just don’t go claiming Hitler designed it.
I don't think anyone has - the evidence doesn't support it.
What the evidence does support is that Hitler designed the 'shape' of it and that shape persisted into the 21st century.
In the context of this thread that's relevant. In the context of history less so since AFAICT all cars in the early 40s were styled like that and the 'design' I've seen was little more than a curved line.