[Closed] Lakes Passes Graded List

Thread not showing, is this still a thing?

On road?
Off road?
Up?
Down?
Legal?
Cheeky?
All of above? 🙂

Lets keep it relatively short by only including the legal off-road ones for now, mainly in descent but we should consider the inevitable climb that riding down them will entail.

Well there goes the rest of my working day thinking about this...

Does it have to be named as a pass? E.g walna scar road is a pass but not named as such

Entirely up to you, I'd include anything that qualifies as a significant pass, so I'd probably include the Walna scar road but not the bit of the Borrowdale bash from Watendlath to Rosthwate

letter for climbing difficulty, number for descent technicality?

A - trials skills needed
>
D - seated granny gear spin

4 - mandatory drops and/or nosemanual corners
>
1 - recently refurbished to a near tarmac finish

Since everyone else is fannying around asking questions instead of getting on with it, I'll chuck down my initial ill considered thoughts for descent (obvs)

Garburn west
Walna east
Walna West
Gatesgarth north
Garburn east
Nan Bield South
Nan Bield north
Rosset

Would it not be a bit like grading climbs? E.g. one for how hard the riding is, one for the consequences of a fall (such as face first into a peat bog or off down a rocky gorge)?

EDIT: Further fannying around by me 😉 - there's potential for a sub-category using bouldering grades just for dealing with water bars

I think a grading system for water bars could be the most useful thing to come out of this discussion, could save a lot of "do I need a rim protector" threads.

Edit: it also appears that over on the New Nevis blue thread that the Top Cheif Black/red is rapidly becoming Mountain bikings Three pebble slab.

Top Cheif Black/red is rapidly becoming Mountain bikings Three pebble slab.

PMSL. 😃

For ****'s sake. Just put all the descents in a list with the easy ones at the top and the hardest ones at the bottom

🥳🤗

Initial stab at this, may need more thought. I've ommited stuff that doesn't clearly cross a col of reasonable altitude, though probably being a bit pointlessly strict on what counts as a pass. Listed in order of difficulty of descent. Stuff with an asterisk is something I haven't gotten round to actually riding. I've missed out a couple of options where you just wouldn't bother doing it in that direction too.

Garburn pass to troutbeck
Walna scar to seathwaite
Gatesgarth pass to sadgill*
Gatesgarth pass to mardale
Garburn pass to kentmere
Walna scar to coniston
Stake pass to Langstrath*
Styhead pass to wasdale (ignoring short unrideable section near the top)
Scarth gap to ennerdale
Blacksail pass to wasdale
Nan bield to kentmere
Styhead pass to seathwaite
Sticks pass to Glenridding
Grizedale hause to Glenridding
Stake pass to langdale
Scarth gap to buttermere
Greenup edge to stonethwaite
Greenup edge to grasmere
Nan bield to mardale*

I was surprised to see Greenup edge so far up the list, but I've only looked at it on an OS map in a fairly casual way.

Ummed and ahhed about Greenup. The descent to stonethwaite is excellent and very amenable if you're comfortable with the rest of the list, but it has a section near the top where you're almost scrambling down the side of lining crag. I guess I could have just noted that as I did for styhead pass,in which case it'd be in the middle somewhere.

Going into grasmere the trail surface is really crap in a lot of places, especially as the gradient eases and you don't have gravity on your side quite so much. Last time I was there was a few years back but there were repairs in progress higher up. Unfortunately it looked to be the classic giant boulder steps built with no regard for mtbers

I read legal .. now I need to remove my self from the tread ..

Love Lakes threads 😉

I’d been considering it was part of a loop with stake pass, worth noting the scrambling aspect hahaha.

For ****’s sake. Just put all the descents in a list with the easy ones at the top and the hardest ones at the bottom

Isn't it hardest at the to of the list?

That's how climbing guides work but it's been a while

 

I’d been considering it was part of a loop with stake pass, worth noting the scrambling aspect hahaha.

If you haven't done it, a potentially better loop would be up Rosset gill, over to sprinkling tarn and down styhead pass to seathwaite, then back over stake pass. The climb up Rosset is long and arduous and you'll be carrying the bike most of the way. For stuff like that I tend to use the shoulder straps off some army ammunition belt so I can carry the bike like a rucksack. If you're happy with hike a bike then it's definitely a good loop.

For ****’s sake. Just put all the descents in a list with the easy ones at the top and the hardest ones at the bottom

That wouldn't be any fun though!

Great idea op. Way better/more fun than black/red/blue

Don't go near greenup unless you're an askrigg meets McCaskill super being. It's not exposed or owt but after the initial drop from the edge it just an unrideable collection of rocks. All the way down. Until it becomes a flat tractor track. Soul destroying.

NeilC has pretty much nailed it though. Have known people to ride down (most of) Rosset but I wouldn't try it.

Tried descending Rosset before. Took my dh bike, complete with armour jacket and full face helmet. This did not feel like overkill...
There's a couple of nice sections. There's a giant boulder jammed across the path near the top that would likely give even Danny McCaskill some trouble to get over. The sections of big steps ruin it for me though, crazy steep and not particularly fun to ride.
My current dh bike is 15 years old, so might give it another go at some point on something more capable. Should be taking it easy at the moment though, still recovering from mangling a knee in a skiing accident a couple of years ago.

This thread makes me want to find those two little guide books and put pipe lagging on my bike!!!

Rosset is a pain in the rear to Hike up , nothing fun about it compared to others in the lakes the other side isnt anything to scream home about either.

I love some of these ones getting slagged off!
Anyway I would add Sticks descending West to the list, about the same difficulty as Stake into Langdale. Much steeper than sticks East for a bit. Also Hammer Pass, from Wasdale into Miterdale, excellent and not hard. Possibly the Burnmoor tarn pass from Boot to Wasdale Head (either direction is good). Does Warnscale into Buttermere count as a pass? Or Boredale Head pass by Ullswater?

@thekettle

I love some of these ones getting slagged off!

I love them all! Each in their own different ways..

Some good suggestions there.
Not ridden sticks west, though walked up it quite a few times. Didn't feel qualified to rank it.

The name Hammer pass is new to me, always just called it Mitredale. I'd put the South side just before Walna scar to coniston and the North side just after (not descended the north side in ages so might be misremembering).

Ommited Burnmoor tarn originally cos the top of it is a bit of a bog slog and doesn't feel quite as pass like to me (but does actually fit with the arbitrary definition I gave). I'd say the north side would go between Garburn pass to troutbeck and Walna scar to seathwaite. South side between Gatesgarth pass to mardale and Garburn pass to kentmere maybe.

Not sure if I've ridden Boredale Hause, care to place it?

Hope it doesn't seem like I've appointed myself keeper of the list here, just enjoying discussing it 🤣

Edit: forgot to add Wharnscales to my original list, though did think about it. Its sort of a pass... Maybe just above Scarth gap to buttermere?

Boredale Haus into patterdale is good fun, not particularly hard.
Into boredale it's hard and steep tech at the very top but then quickly turns into a rubble run, smoothing out to farm track

I haven't done all the passes on neilc's list however into patterdaleI reckon it's about the same as stake pass into langdale.
Which IMO is way too far down the list. Found it pretty easy to be honest. Easier than sty head into seathwaite anyway

Warnscales a though one! Maybe it's because I've only ever done it in the pissing wet, but I'd have rated that much harder. Towards the bottom anyway.

If we can have warnscale can we have watendlath into rosthwaite?

I like the idea of this. I've been meaning to do something similar for a while for my own ride planning, so hopefully people get on board with doing this collaberatively.

I've put together a Google sheet based on the above, and added some of my own info where I could. I've also added columns for the OS area for ease of locating/planning and any well known rides the descent features on.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pr_OLGth5HJbDDEJGCPlzUqvFqJSDk58kUxPwBWM2tU/edit#gid=0

Sounds like a great idea, you're settings mean you need to grant access btw.

I have to admit that as well as generating an interesting discussion I was hoping it would help with my planning, as in "I felt that descent was right on my limit maybe I won't try that one much higher up the list" or the opposite "that was really fun and well within my comfort so the ones lower down shouldn't pose a problem" nothing worse than getting out of your depth and having to carry the bike down as well as up.

Hopefully it's available for public editing now

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQjO3PIuxobGkCiM6hpmiebMa-cVNvtff0mc-5laiuPowM1LRlml7IiwDTb-dwWUk1sdWLOnTVBGJol/pubhtml

I'm probably just being dim but what's the distinction between Warnscale and honister? I assume the road hasn't got THAT bad 😉

I’m probably just being dim but what’s the distinction between Warnscale and honister? I assume the road hasn’t got THAT bad

Just making sure you're paying attention. Now updated

Is Blacksail pass just completely unridable into Ennerdale just not seen it mentioned.

@Joe-m - it's doable, but I see absolutely no reason why you'd want to do it that way. You'd lose most of your height on grass, with a few tricky rock sections. Drops you into the arse end of nowhere too

@neilc - funnily enough, that route you describe (Langstrath, Stake, Rossett, Styhead etc) features in the next edition of the mag. It's a brilliant loop, one of my favourites

@mark88 - I still can't seem to edit that sheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pr_OLGth5HJbDDEJGCPlzUqvFqJSDk58kUxPwBWM2tU/edit?usp=sharing

Sorry - first time using Google sheets. Hopefully this time.

If that link works, and there's any mods here, could you correct in m previous posts please

For ****’s sake. Just put all the descents in a list with the easy ones at the top and the hardest ones at the bottom

That wouldn’t be any fun though!

Great idea op. Way better/more fun than black/red/blue

Yes, agree on both points. Sorry, was just impatient to see the lists. ,😃

can we have watendlath into rosthwaite?

I think we should. Apart from anything else, it's probably going to be the one most people on here have actually done.

Also, I know it's not a proper pass, but please can we have Birkside on Helvellyn included. Pretty please, because it is awesumz

funnily enough, that route you describe (Langstrath, Stake, Rossett, Styhead etc) features in the next edition of the mag. It’s a brilliant loop, one of my favourites

Can't wait.

Can I ask a question?
Is the list position based on difficulty of riding every single bit of the descent, or riding the vast majority of it?

I'm hoping it's the latter. Ie, which descent should I plan on tackling next and hopefully have a generally awesome but stretched time.

I think it should be a done on what most people will ride when they do a descent. Be worth a note if its a bit that comes up fast or is particularly dodgy. Think that's what Neilc has done anyhow.

Is the list position based on difficulty of riding every single bit of the descent, or riding the vast majority of it?

I guess a bit of both - i've tried to encompass that in the notes. For example if it's a relatively easy descent with very short hard bits that some people may walk then I'd call that a 2 (e.g. Walna Scar to Coniston), compared to something that's fairly tech throughout but never super hard I'd call a 3 (e.g. Nan Bield to Kentmere).

Hopefully that's a logical approach?

Seems logical to me, if a couple of sections are a bit hard it doesn't ruin the overall experience if you find the whole thing a bit hard it will.

I'd focus more or the order than the number mind it allows people to work their way up the list where as a number becomes arbitrary and you get yourself in the position where the difference between two 3s can be greater than between some 2s and some 3s.

I've scored and added notes for the ones I know. If others can do the same then we've got a good starting point to order them.

Be interesting to see if there's differences in opinion of gradings too, maybe discuss on here before changing any on the sheet?

Just to throw an opinion out there, I'd have thought that Styhead to Stonethwaite would come in harder than Nan Bield to Kentmere, I've only Ridden Nan Bield out of the two though I have walked Styhead.

I think Neil's initial list had them the way you listed them but I re-ordered. I don't recall anything difficult from Styhead though it was a long old day so maybe I just haven't remembered it well.

I remember a few sections near the top and near the bottom that looked fairly spicy, I was mainly thinking of the rock slabs at the bottom though.

I don’t recall anything difficult from Styhead

Well that comes as zero surprise 🙂

Seems like there's some great knowledge in here so I've also added a tab for people to add their favourite descents that we're not classing as passes.

I've started with Harter Fell as shown to me by @thegeneralist

Is that the Harter fell in Duddon? You could argue that is a pass, goes from Duddon to Eskdale.
Some mentioned Birk side as well, which I'd rate as one of the best descents in the lakes... Maybe open this up to all significant descents?

Thanks to those that have added notes and grades, looking much more complete now.

Is that the Harter fell in Duddon?

Above Haweswater, between Nan Bield and Gatesgarth passes.

Maybe open this up to all significant descents?

I think that would be the best way to do it. I've added a second tab to avoid the initial request of graded passes being lost

seems sensible so long as we don't end up listing every bit of cheeky woods action in the area hahaha

Harter Fell above Haweswater is definitely not a pass, or a Bridleway. Adding that to the list would be the thin end of a very long wedge, involving every cheeky ridge and summit descent in the Lakes, of which there are hundreds.

Harter Fell above Haweswater is definitely not a pass, or a Bridleway. Adding that to the list would be the thin end of a very long wedge, involving every cheeky ridge and summit descent in the Lakes, of which there are hundreds.

I have to reluctantly agree with this PoV. I always feel a little dirty asking on forums about FBWs and then even more dirty posting about then afterwards ( yes I realise how hypocritical I am being). But I can just about justify it to myself.

Given that this list is going to end up being a hit list for many people, well me at least, I think we maybe ought to leave FBWs off it...

Just my opinion though.

Apologies - I thought that was a bridleway, though didn't actually check.

Agree with not including footpaths and cheeky for the sake of this. Let's keep it to best of the legal stuff, there's plenty of it

Agree lets keep it too significant BW descents, if they're ridges etc that's fine, if we want to have a best cheeky descent thread as well that's fine by me but might upset some of the locals.

Edit: when I say BW I don't mean to exculde BOATs and restricted byways either obvs.

Apologies – I thought that was a bridleway, though didn’t actually check.

That's what I say when I get called out for riding on a footpath by an Irate rambler 😉

Warnscale's got to be at, or near, the top of the list for technicality, iirc correctly I'm sure I read somewhere it was supposed to be the hardest descent in the UK?
(it's got to be one of the toughest to get up to?)

Depends how you define the most difficult...
It's certainly one of the harder ones, and one of the hardest that mere mortals have a chance in hell of riding cleanly. But even by that definition I'm not sure whether it takes top spot or not

Apologies – I thought that was a bridleway, though didn’t actually check.

Oops. How embarrassing. I knew there was something I forgot to mention on Saturday Mark
🥵😫🥵

Soz.

There's an out and back be on harter isn't there?

There's one on the duddon harter too although I think that comes under the "suicide mission" category

Warnscale's definitely tricky, but I'd say Nan Bield north to Haweswater, Rossett Gill or High Crag down to Scarth Gap are all harder. It's splitting hairs though, as they've all got their moments

I've added a few descents I'm curious about to the bottom of the provisional list in the hope that someone who knows what they're taking about.
If we're adding to the main list can we stick them where we think they fit on the list otherwise its gonna get confusing fast.

I also added some to the bottom that appear in guide books but I've not yet done. Hopefully someone can fill some blanks and slot them into order.

Can we add numbers? Might make it a bit easier to talk about.

Looking at the list, I'd say Wharnscales could potentially go above scarth gap - the hardest bits of scarth gap are (debatably) harder than the hardest bits or Wharnscales. On the other hard, Wharnscales is on average harder - there's more nails sections and the whole thing is pretty relentless, whereas with scarth gap the hard bits are very hard but short lived and interspersed with easy single-track.

I'd also say birk side is too far up the list. Personally I'd put it between sticks and scarth gap.

I suspect were likely to find a lot of differences of opinion due to riding style etc. Also for the harder stuff on the list, if you've only tried once or twice it may seem harder than if you've had a few goes and worked out the best line

New stuff:
Watendlath - between Scarth gap and blacksail pass? The steep rocky bit is fairly hard (though short)
Allerdale ramble - not sure what you're referring to. Looked this up but wasn't obvious which descent is on it
Dollywaggon - maybe just above Greenup edge to grasmere. The fix the fells section is steep with some wheel swallowing water bars
Iron keld - there's like 4 descents here. The bridleway north is maybe between walna scar and gatesgarth
Skiddaw - maybe after Garburn pass to troutbeck?
Skiddaw house to Bassenthwaite - never done it in descent but somewhere round the top of the list
High street to hartsop - never done it in descent. The grassy section from the knott is crazy steep but there's nothing that technically challenging iirc
Materdale common - not done it
Blacksail to ennerdale - never ridden and unlikely to do so - its a waste of your altitude

Is it worth having a star system like with rock climbing? Zero to three stars depending on the quality of the route.

Maybe have some indication of sections that are normally unrideable? So e.g. styhead pass to wasdale could be graded like 2(U) - its 2 overall but there's a bit you can't really ride.

Also some climbing grading systems use multiple grades to give the overall difficulty and the difficulty of individual bits. This is useful as it lets you know if it's hard all the way, or easy with one hard bit. My suggestions is stick with the 1 to 5 we have, but maybe an overall grade, and a grade for bits that are significantly different from the rest? Or is this too complicated?

If by Skiddaw we mean Ullock Pike, then it needs to be removed as it's a FP. Soz

Sounds like a great idea, but unfortunately I don't know enough of the trails mentioned to truly contribute. Keen to tick off plenty more if there's any rides I can tag along to!

There'll never be 100% consensus, but I think we've all been pretty much in agreement on the 1-4 difficulty gradings so far.

Is it worth having a star system like with rock climbing? Zero to three stars depending on the quality of the route.

I did contemplate this, but thought it leaves it too open to personal taste so opted for the notes instead

If by Skiddaw we mean Ullock Pike, then it needs to be removed as it’s a FP. Soz

I took this to mean the bridleway to the summit (more often used as the climb to do Ullock pike...)

I took this to mean the bridleway to the summit (more often used as the climb to do Ullock pike…)

Correct - I've changed the name to clarify

I did contemplate this, but thought it leaves it too open to personal taste so opted for the notes instead

That's a fair point. Just thinking if people want to use this as a ticklist, there's stuff on there that would be must-do bucket list descents, and stuff that you should probably actively avoid (or at least things I'd only ride if there's no other way to join up some better trails to make a loop)

Blacksail to ennerdale – never ridden and unlikely to do so – its a waste of your altitude

Is that because its boring or unrideable just wondering about it as a there and back appraicaite that the "correct" way to do it is as part of the 4 passes.

Is that because its boring or unrideable just wondering about it as a there and back appraicaite that the “correct” way to do it is as part of the 4 passes.

Some steep rock that wouldn't be rideable, then mellow, marshy fields
Scarth or Sty Head would be better to do in the 'wrong' way if you wanted a there and back.

I think someone else summed it up earlier - there's a couple of tricky rocks, but you'd lose most of your height on boggy grass

Just on a tangent, can anyone tell me if Parkamoor is currently worth the descent. I last did it possibly 10 years ago and had read on here it got sanitised, but that's a few years ago. Has it gone back to anything like of old??

Some steep rock that wouldn’t be rideable, then mellow fields.
Scarth or Sty Head would be better to do in the ‘wrong’ way if you wanted a there and back.

Which way is the right way for scarth though? Probably gets ridden into ennerdale a lot to do the 4 passes, but I'd say into buttermere is the 'right' way, but I do have a mild obsession with borderline unrideable descents...

Easiest way to do scarth that way is start at bowness knot, head down the fireroad then over the pass. To get back go along the south side of buttermere. Then either carry on along crummock for a km or so and follow the boggy bridleway (mostly carrying/pushing up) to floutern tarn. The descent here is nice enough but nothing special. You can also get on the road at buttermere village and ride along the north side of crummock. Cut through langthwaite wood to loweswater, then head up mosedale. This is longer but more of it is rideable. Both ways involve bogs, long tussock grass and some pushing.
Actually maybe just going there and back is easier, plus if you walk up scarth you can weigh up line choice

All interesting what i had been considering was Scarth Gap to ennerdale, Blacksail > Wasdale, Blacksail > ennerdale, back by floutern tarn thus avoiding ending up on the wrong side of Honnister at the end of a long day.

Also some climbing grading systems use multiple grades to give the overall difficulty and the difficulty of individual bits. This is useful as it lets you know if it’s hard all the way, or easy with one hard bit. My suggestions is stick with the 1 to 5 we have, but maybe an overall grade, and a grade for bits that are significantly different from the rest? Or is this too complicated?

Climbing has a lot to teach us - what better way to have an argument then give every trail a (complicated) grade, followed by ethical argy-bargy on how / if one should ride said trail 🙂

Honestly though it sounds like useful stuff - taking an underwhelming route off a mountain really sucks when you've worked your balloches off getting up there, vice versa not everyone wants death on wheels in Lakes descents, so having an expectation of tech level is v helpful.

Just on a tangent, can anyone tell me if Parkamoor is currently worth the descent. I last did it possibly 10 years ago and had read on here it got sanitised, but that’s a few years ago. Has it gone back to anything like of old??

I did it last month and it isn't worth going out your way in my opinion. It's been filled with very loose rock and fill and isn't the challenge it once was. Hodge Close/Oxen Fell seems to have also been done with a load of loose rock just making it feel like lumpy scree with hardly any bedrock to ride over.