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Would the term 'jungle drums' used to describe the travel of news/gossip between different groups of people (ie over 2 or more locations at work) be considered racist?
A young man of African descent has taken offence to my use of the phrase in a conversation they weren't involved in but heard (along with about 8 others). I acknowledged his interjection, apologised if he took offence at anything I said, but none was given and I was not aware of any negative connotation of the phrase. He rejected my offering and left the premises.
Should I be expecting to find myself in hot water at work?
yes.
The PC approved phrase is "Chinese whispers"
Crikey. What a world.
Depends on who's playing the drums I suppose. Where you in blackface with a bone through your nose? That may have tipped the balance against you
You should use the term ‘grapevine’ unless there are French people within earshot.
Should I be expecting to find myself in hot water at work?
Tempting, but I'll leave it.
'Sending up smoke signals' would be a close equivalent I guess. Nothing derogatory about using either term as long as you weren't using it to describe a particular colleague or group.
Should I be expecting to find myself in hot water at work?
Tempting, but I’ll leave it.
No it's too good an opportunity.
PC gone mad
PC gone mad
Computerist.
How is a reference to a form of communication racist ???
Could it be the 'apology' that's the issue? In inverted commas because it's clear you don't think you said anything offensive and don't think this individual should have taken offence.
acknowledged his interjection, apologised if he took offence at anything I said,
but none was given
Apologising "if any offence was given" is not apologising.
If what you're saying is you didn't give any offence (but sorry if you did, but you didn't) then it's really not an apology.
I was not aware of any negative connotation of the phrase.
Me neither until now for what it's worth, but one lives and learns.
He rejected my offering and left the premises.
If you're going to apologise for something you've done (whether or not you are at fault) do it like you mean it or not at all.
(Editing to say that talk of jungle this that and the other have been tropes of racist language and white guys like presumably you and certainly I don't get to decide who should be offended.)
I typed jungle drums into google and rather worryingly the first result was an article in the daily mail regarding a racism investigation.
If your employer is a very PC operation , like a local authority , then its prob best that the others involved in the conversation are prepped to confirm that no racism was intended on your part just in case a complaint is made at a later date
very shit i know , but we live in a world where being offended is a full time occupation for many
Don't you just hate it when someone gets all uppity?
Sir William Macpherson would say yes. Humpty Dumpty would say no.
A bit of a snowflake then?
You should use the term ‘grapevine’ unless there are French people within earshot.
obviously, "le téléphone arabe" if there are any French around.
It isn’t a phrase I haven’t heard for years. Does sound a bit ‘Les Dawson’.
Not one I would use either.
You are Joris Bohnson and I claim my Daily Telegraph subscription!
TBH, jungle drums/grapevine are pretty much interchangeable and in common enough use that neither stand out when I hear them.
he rejected my offering
If it was a pint of goat blood then so would I.
No it’s too good an opportunity.
Yes it is.
Could it be the ‘apology’ that’s the issue?
Could be. In hindsight I could have had a longer discussion with him about it. He did interupt a converstaion I was having though, one I had to get back to. No doubt if he stuck around I would have talked about it more.
Apologising “if any offence was given” is not apologising.
If what you’re saying is you didn’t give any offence (but sorry if you did, but you didn’t) then it’s really not an apology.
I didn't apologise for giving offence, because I never gave any. I apologised if he took offence to what I said. Which I suppose you're right isn't really an apology. Bit like apologising when someone bumps into you.
How is a reference to a form of communication racist ???
Well, I'm not really an expert in racism and disclaimer, I'm as white as they come, but I'll have a go. Using terms like these is not explicitly racist, however it's associated with hackneyed ignorant stereotypes from early films or books which themselves come from an actual racist perspective - the ignorant savages banging drums, as contrasted with the cultured and sophisticated white people. It's basically bringing up a bad period in race relations that many people would rather forget. That's just my interpretation which is not exactly well-informed, happy to learn from anyone on the subject though.
Wether or not the colleague was right to reject your apology though - that's another issue.
Used in my family to imply hearing it from someone else, just like on the grapevine. Ran it past my non-white fiance and got a wtf are they on about response.
Also, given that I can think of jungles on at least 3 continents I would contest that your co-worker is putting two and two together and getting Enoch Powell.
Edit: the phrase never struck me as racist in any way, just a method of beyond visual range communication in a locale where phone lines would be a bugger to install.
You are Joris Bohnson and I claim my Daily Bush Telegraph subscription!
Should we also ban all words that came into English from, say, India because they are a reminder of colonial rule?
obviously, “le téléphone arabe” if there are any French around.
🥂 chapeau!
I didn’t apologise for giving offence, because I never gave any. I apologised if he took offence to what I said.
That's a passive-aggressive way of telling someone else that they're wrong and you're right. Not surprised he walked out tbh.
"words that came into English from, say, India"
Well done.
**** me !!
Edit: the phrase never struck me as racist in any way
This is part of the problem. White people going 'there's no problem with this thing I know nothing about' and ignoring black people when trying to point out that there is.
Should we also ban all words that came into English from, say, India because they are a reminder of colonial rule?
I hope not.
I tell my kids to “get a jildy on” at least a dozen times a day.
I’d go doolally without it. It’s one of my go to phrases
I didn’t apologise for giving offence, because I never gave any. I apologised if he took offence to what I said.
exactly. Besides, offence isn't something you give, it's something you (choose to) take.That’s a passive-aggressive way of telling someone else that they’re wrong and you’re right. Not surprised he walked out tbh.
Well, It is actually "a thing" there are well recorded instances and anthropological studies of this sort of communication being used in Africa, and New Guinea in y'know, yer actual jungles...so in one sense, no it's not racist. But it has overtones in common use of miscommunication and primitiveness so I can see how it could be offensive.
apologised if he took offence at anything I said
I agree with johnx2 and Molly this is not an apology, it's a non apology, designed to be used by people who think they should apologise but don't actually think they have to. This often compounds the original offence for obvious reasons. I doubt anything will come of it, but I'd be prepared to be obsequious in any HR meetings you're invited to.
If your employer is a very PC operation , like a local authority , then its prob best that the others involved in the conversation are prepped to confirm that no racism was intended on your part just in case a complaint is made at a later date
It is a very PC organisation, head office in London with other offices housing all the support type staff such as HR in other big cities. By contrast my place of work is a run down working depot type building, full of manual workers quite removed from the day to day of rest of company so sometimes things come as a suprise.
Everone was talking about it afterwards which I didn't really want them to as it might make things worse for both of us.
Besides, offence isn’t something you give, it’s something you (choose to) take.
Of course you can give offence. Clearly and without doubt you can give offence. I didn't in this case. If he can choose to take it when none was offered then how is that something I should apologise for without knowing the details?
Me personally, I'd ask him to explain to me how it's racist, as I didn't think it was in any way, then explain my interpretation of the meaning of it. Treat it as a learning experience for everyone.
One of the problems with using phrases like "Jungle Drums" is your assuming they were a shit form of communication in the way you used them. Where in reality they were probably well in advance of anything Western Civilization had at the time. There is always a built in assumption in the West that everyone else's tech was crappy just because we didn't understand it.
Lokks like you're safe OP. Efter six months of wrangling a council backed down after excluding a woman for the use of the expression.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8320510/Council-backs-down-in-jungle-drums-racism-row.html
not quite...Lokks like you’re safe OP. Efter six months of wrangling a council backed down after excluding a woman for the use of the expression.
The council has not, however, rescinded its finding that the "jungle drums" remark was racist,
Me personally, I’d ask him to explain to me how it’s racist, as I didn’t think it was in any way, then explain my interpretation of the meaning of it. Treat it as a learning experience for everyone.
I think that's what I would have done if he never left before I had the chance to, but I was in middle of something else I couldn't just have stopped for any longer than I did.
One of the problems with using phrases like “Jungle Drums” is your assuming they were a shit form of communication in the way you used them.
Maybe, but in this particular case it was a reference to the fact that the jungle drums beat me to telling some good news. I had travelled back 30mins or so from a meeting and was going to deliver some news in person about a contract win, but by the time I got there they aready knew. I wasn't complaining about it, or said it in a negative way, I just said that the jungle drums beat me to it.
probably more likely that someone sent a WhatsApp
Besides, offence isn’t something you give, it’s something you (choose to) take.
This is something that self-help books tell to people to try and give them a sense of control over a situation, but I don't agree. If I walk in and start talking like an absolute arsehole insulting and upsetting everyone, it's clearly MY fault for being an arsehole. You can very obviously GIVE offence. Your words should accurately communicate your sentiment, and sometimes that sentiment is offence.
I don’t see it as overtly racist per se, but can see how it could be interpreted as reinforcing dated stereotypes. In any event, there is a bit of a stereotype here about stopping digging when you’re in a hole...!
Here we are again in the world of context and intent.
Did you intend to make a racist remark? No.
Is the complainant in the right or being over-sensitive? Who knows. There's enough actual racism in the world for someone to throw their toys of the the pram over something which, however you slice it, was an innocent mistake.
Perhaps a better response might have been "I had no idea that anyone might have found that offensive and I'll endeavour not to say it again."
^this.
However since this is STW you are clearly the one at fault since you are an unapologetic racist and Wrap yourself in white privilege when held to account for your sub 1970s stand-up behaviour.
No, you're confusing BEING offensive with GIVING offence. Unless you're saying it's 100% up to you to judge whether someone should be offended by what you're saying, or not? Which is a bit of a gammony attitude these days.If I walk in and start talking like an absolute arsehole insulting and upsetting everyone, it’s clearly MY fault for being an arsehole. You can very obviously GIVE offence.
So the lesson here is to never use the word jungle in any context ever just in case a person of colour is offended in some way. - maybe use "tropical undergrowth" as a suitable alternative word
and dont offer an apology of any sort out of politeness in an attempt to de-escalate the situation just in case he's offended by that also - instead just tell him to piss off and mind his own business rather than butting into a conversation that doesnt concern him
ok got it.
Yep this country's f****d.
"White wash" when used to mean a cover up.
"Edinburgh defense" when meaning someone was only joking so what they said was OK
"black sheep" which combines two clearly offensive words... imagine you're black and Welsh!
"Going Dutch", "French letter", "Italian tune up", "It's Greek to me", "Polish Plumber", "Russian roulette", "WC Turk", "tête de Turque", "parler comme une vache Espagnole",
Makes you think. I will however erase the "j** d*" experession from my vocabulary forthwith.
Yep this country’s f****d.
It's not, I can see why you might think that if you are obtuse enough not to recognise that some-ones lived experience might be different to yours, and show the tiniest amount of empathy.
In any event, there is a bit of a stereotype here about stopping digging when you’re in a hole…!
But do ensure the correct terminology is used to describe the said digging implement.
Should we also ban all words that came into English from, say, India because they are a reminder of colonial rule?
Wash your mouth out with soap.
I didn’t in this case. If he can choose to take it when none was offered then how is that something I should apologise for without knowing the details?
If you accidentally trip someone up do you apologies for them falling over. Or do you accept that an accidental action of yours hurt them and apologise for tripping them up?
The PC approved phrase is “Chinese whispers”
I never get this I mean "whispers"? 🤔
Oh ya ... just in case someone gets PC on me I am descendant of Chinese from SE Asia.
Are they actually whispering? I wish they were because they annoy the hell out of me when they speak including me friends.
When we speak or talk you can hear us miles away ... sounds more like fighting or arguing ... 🤣
p/s:
Is the term ‘jungle drums’ racist?
No.
It’s a tricky one and has left you in a bit of a predicament. I agree with the posters stating speak to him and outline what you think the phrase means, how you didn’t intend to offend and see what he says.
If you don’t fancy doing this face to face send it by Bush Telegraph
It has slight racist edges / tone to me. However your non apology is the thing that concerns me.
Perhaps it would have been better to say "Is it? I don't realise, help me understand"
As for the bullshit about offense not being given. It was. You might not have intended it but it was offensive to him. Yu may think him unreasonable but you did offend. Inadvertantly perhaps but it was offensive to him
IMO its not a hanging offense tho - its one for learning from. m I wouldn't worry too much from and HR point of virew. As an ex union rep I would like to think I could make a good defense
do NOT tel him what you intended in that way - compounding the offense by lecturing telling him he was wrong. As above. " I am sorry, I didn't intend it to be offensive and didn't realise it could be taken that way. Help me understand" is a much better approach IMO
Did some MF say jungle drums.
Colour Him Farther.
Should I be expecting to find myself in hot water at work?
Don't know. Depending on how PC your HR is at work ...
p/s:
The PC approved phrase is “Chinese whispers”
Oh ya ... I am not offended in anyway or form.
Unless you’re saying it’s 100% up to you to judge whether someone should be offended by what you’re saying, or not? Which is a bit of a gammony attitude these days.
Come again?
Can’t believe I’ve never seen militant black guy before. Made me chuckle
But do ensure the correct terminology is used to describe the said digging implement.
Chapeau Sir
A quick google indicates that 'jungle drums' is now used as a term to describe the sounds coming from an 'urban' cars/houses. Maybe that gives it a fresh racial twist.
As a term in itself it does not seem overtly racist to me save having a colonial connotation. I can't see it as specifically would have been used in a negative way which is why a word/phrase ends up unacceptable in modern parlance. I would have previously put it with 'rumour mill' and 'grapevine' as interchangeable. Never been a go to phrase mind but up until now not on my no go list.
Chinese Whispers - now that is one that (thinking about it) could easily be considered racist. It sounds gossipy and ill informed and does not say good things about the people it was named after.
lolz @ chesters' militant black guy vid
"gangsta-claus" 😀
I wasn’t complaining about it, or said it in a negative way, I just said that the jungle drums beat me to it.
Wasn't the offended guy who passed on the news was it? In that context I can see how it could be offensive!
Gimme a can of Irn Bru!
RACIST!
🙂
do NOT tel him what you intended in that way – compounding the offense by lecturing telling him he was wrong.
I didn't read it like that. I read it as 'for the avoidance of doubt I was not intending to be racist'. Whilst I appreciate how something is received it very important, explaining the lack of intent to cause offence (casual or specifically insulting) is still very important to how the rest of the conversation will go.
Wasn’t the offended guy who passed on the news was it? In that context I can see how it could be offensive!
That's a great point actually, I don't know who found out first but it's a real possibility, and I'd definitely agree it wouldn't have been a nice thing to say if it could have been taken as I was calling him jungle drums. I will try and speak with him in the morning.
Not racist.
What about black looks, black day, black friday?
Wasn't there some sort of fuss about 'cheeky little monkey'?
The issue appears to be with the person who over-heard without, apparently, understanding.
I would not have apologised for the perceived offence.
One of the problems with using phrases like “Jungle Drums” is your assuming they were a shit form of communication in the way you used them. Where in reality they were probably well in advance of anything Western Civilization had at the time
Always more in line with your second sentence IMO/E - means of getting a message in advance of anything from an official source, hence more efficient
This is something that self-help books tell to people to try and give them a sense of control over a situation, but I don’t agree. If I walk in and start talking like an absolute arsehole insulting and upsetting everyone, it’s clearly MY fault for being an arsehole. You can very obviously GIVE offence. Your words should accurately communicate your sentiment, and sometimes that sentiment is offence.
You calling the OP an arsehole, then Mols ? That's offensive
I've never really come across the idea of "giving" offence before - sure, you can intend that it be taken but you can also not intend it, in which case I'd agree that it must occasionally have to just be taken. Doesn't make the offence any less in their eyes, and you "caused" it but I don't think you need to beg forgiveness in all cases. "I really didn't mean any offence - that's just a figure of speech to me" is good enough for me
To take the trippy-uppy analogy; if I accidentally tripped someone up then yes, I'd apologise but there's also a place for people not looking where they going and then bleating when they walk into someone/thing else. They can **** right off if they try demanding an apology
OP, you do seem to have a bit of a supercilious approach to communication and on occasion come across as a bit of a smartarse, at least in written form, maybe that’s what he’s offended about...
benv
Member
well, I have now ordered oneCourse you did. Something new and shiny you don’t need, and all it took was a wee prompt by an advert. A short lived dopomine hit, addictive though, got to keep consuming to keep up that buzz. After all what’s the point of working and suffering all that comes along with it if we don’t buy shite we don’t need?
My first instinct when I inadvertently offend someone is to start apologising profusely whether I think there's nothing to be offended about or not.
Unless I actually am trying to be offend someone but in a sort of shithouse, 'lets see if I can get them wound up enough to take a swing at me' kind of way. Then I'll go to great lengths to politely explain to them why they are wrong.
Phrases like, 'I'm sorry if you took offence but...' are made for this kind of infuriating wind up.
Genuine question to the people that think this phrase is a normal part of UK vernacular: how old are you?
I ask because I am 40 and had literally never heard the term 'jungle drums' used analogously to 'on the grapevine' until I opened this thread (i was hoping it was about actual percussive music!!)
A lot of these terms can be quite specific to certain social groups too. A privately educated friend recently expressed wonder that he used to hear the phrase 'play the white man' at school, which again I had never heard until that point.
A quick google indicates that ‘jungle drums’ is now used as a term to describe the sounds coming from an ‘urban’ cars/houses.
I would bet my house and all my worldly possessions that black people don't use it that way.
OP, you do seem to have a bit of a supercilious approach to communication and on occasion come across as a bit of a smartarse, at least in written form, maybe that’s what he’s offended about…
Could be, I do on occasion. I apologise profusely for offending you in a previous thread.
Genuine question to the people that think this phrase is a normal part of UK vernacular: how old are you?
42
I think that was the point Doris, that it's possibly now more overtly racist than originally.
I'm mid 40s and know what it means. It's actually a really good analogy for the situation in question, better than Chinese whispers or the grapevine.
So anyway, what do we reckon the outcome will be here? Diversity awareness training for the OP?
I would bet my house and all my worldly possessions that black people don’t use it that way.
which is kind of the point.
Also, top marks for the amen break video above. Made me smile.
sorry, hadn't quite twigged in that case!
I can see why they were upset by the comment, racist tropes carry centuries of discrimination and still cause harm today as they perpetuate negative stereotypes which do affect peoples life outcomes. It may be easy to dismiss one flippant comment, it's not so easy when you hear them several times a day and these micro-aggressions do have a lasting impact.
STW may not be ready for my friend Nathaniel Adam Tobias *, but here you go. Skip to 1.47
Still not entirely sure how the phrase is racist unless you happenened to be in a largely white workplace and you were implying that the gossip was being spread by black people. It's just a phrase about how quickly rumours spread (albeit one I'd never think of using myself)
One of the problems with using phrases like “Jungle Drums” is your assuming they were a shit form of communication in the way you used them.
How?
Should we also ban all words that came into English from, say, India because they are a reminder of colonial rule?
What would I call my bungalow?