Ineos Grenadier on Harry's Garage

I've been following the Grenadiers gestation with interest.
The weight is bit of an issue - a friend had an early G Wagen and that was heavier than my 110 and you could feel it to the point we had the G on its side once. It also doesn't leave much capacity if you are equipping one for overlanding.
My XC90 that I'm building into an Overlander-lite is 2200kg and is built like a tank. The Grenadier is ~ 700-800kg more! You'd quickpy end up over 3.5t and in trouble if Vosa pulled you.

The back seats are a major disappointment - I can't believe they don't fold flat! They should have put the battery under the front seats ala Defender and Gwagen.

I can see the steering box getting modified or tuners offering lower ratio 'boxes soon.

Quite a few RHD owners/Tubers slating the pedal box intrusion.

Lastly - price! Too expensive, I wouldn't have a new Defender as I wouldn't piss on the company if it was on fire. My money would go on a Toyota LC commercial/UN spec with steel wheels. They were £35k+vat (not sure now).

Looks like it may turn out to be a bit of a folly from Mr Ineos.

Not sure who will buy it. The real off road users probably don't care about it looking like a Defender as they just want something that works well for the money and there are better options. The posers who like the idea of driving around in something that looks like a Defender will probably buy something else as there are a lot of options, including the new LR Defender.

The old Defender market was always strong but it must be pretty small in the car market so investing 1.5 billion in the Grenadier seems like a lot of money to try and get back.

I will no doubt get proven wrong as my business ability hasn't made me a billionaire...

There’s a main dealer across the field from ours and they’ve had this lot in stock since the middle of April. Normally I’d expect a waiting list for a new vehicle due to demand and underproduction, not a pile of stock hanging around a brand new dealer.
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Looks like a bit of a pigs ear then!! 😬

If the amount of new Defenders I see going past my window driven by farmers towing cattle trailers on their way to market is anything to go by - the new Defender has been widely accepted and the target audience for this has moved on.

Round my way the pickup is the default 4x4. There's a few old defenders knocking about, a few land cruisers, a few SUV styled new defenders (never seen one on farm duties), but its pickups for most farmers.

Not sure who will buy these Ineos cars though. Its not like they have a brand to trade on so they can't even rely on people wanting an 'Ineos' car even if its not great.

1.5bn in getting it to market.. 😳

That's a lot for a vehicle that can't be sold in the UK and EU after 2030 (unless I've missed a loophole for off-road vehicles). Is there an EV version in the pipeline? You'd think you'd be designing is as an EV first and foremost at this juncture (with a fossil fuel version for the further afield markets if you must).

That steering sounds like an issue you'll never get used to.

Slow steering annoys you every corner, it's not like a boot lip or something that only irritates you occasionally.

I come from a farming family, all the farmers we know have either pick ups (which don’t cost 61k) or new defenders/RRs.
Too expensive compared to a pickup, not posh enough for the RR crowd.

Not sure who will buy these Ineos cars though. Its not like they have a brand to trade on so they can’t even rely on people wanting an ‘Ineos’ car even if its not great.

I was a potential buyer - they initially appeared to be well engineered (from the gestation YouTube feeds) - Puch Steyr were involved and the big oily bits are from known specialists.
I liked the potential DIY servicing/repair - this was one thing I liked about original Defender in that I had all the genuine comprehensive factory repair/parts ID manuals which are supposedly to be available for Grenadier also.

But....it's just too expensive, I'd rather have LC commercial, a base spec Hilux, or in my latest case rebuild a £500 XC90🤣

He and his * Defender "reimmagining" can get *ed. I'm not even reading/watching reviews of the wheeled embodiment of Brexit.

You’d think you’d be designing is as an EV first and foremost at this juncture (with a fossil fuel version for the further afield markets if you must).

To be fair an EV version would have made a load of sense. EVs would be great for a farm that has the possibility to invest in solar/wind for charging and rarely does massive journeys. There's plenty of big estate farms that are really into sustainability that wouldn't hesitate to buy a fleet of them if they were ticking some boxes.

He and his * Defender “reimmagining” can get *ed. I’m not even reading/watching reviews of the wheeled embodiment of Brexit.

I don't blame him for using an ex Mercedes turn key/ ready to go French plant.
Just like new Defender is made in Slovakia rather than Solihull.

Seems like a perfect Brexit icon, marketed towards a certain type of person who thinks that's what they want. The reality of it, is that it's expensive, archaic, unrefined and generally just a bit shit.

Near to the end for the YT video when talking aboutthe distraction of accessories : "... it's like a Harley Davidson..."

Sums it up really well then.
Another overweight ugly underperforming overpriced overhyped marketing-led bag-o-shiiite that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. Especially at 70+ grand.

Again round our way (Shropshire/Wales boarders) the farmers are all in pickups, although many still have the original Defender. I think pickups is more based on value for money than out right performance for what they need.

The new Defender is only driven by rich folk with family and kids who need to look the part whilst they exchange a glance with their neighbouring farmer friends.

The rich farmers still drive Range Rovers.

I cant see how this vehicle would work for farmers as it cant be washed out. That back seat with all the batteries under it makes no sense at all. However I do take all reviews of vehicles on line with some scepticism as you dont know who is truly being pay rolled by who. I have seen one independent review so far of the Ineos and he quite liked it

I liked the potential DIY servicing/repair – this was one thing I liked about original Defender in that I had all the genuine comprehensive factory repair/parts ID manuals which are supposedly to be available for Grenadier also.

Yep when Harry does his walk around you can see that its held together with nuts and bolts, and you can easily take out the headlight housing etc for DIY. However that means it is going to be less refined. I couldnt justify the price tag for a mechano vehicle.

To be fair an EV version would have made a load of sense. EVs would be great for a farm that has the possibility to invest in solar/wind for charging and rarely does massive journeys. There’s plenty of big estate farms that are really into sustainability that wouldn’t hesitate to buy a fleet of them if they were ticking some boxes

My wife's uncle has large farm here in Norfolk and has done just this, he has just had solar panels and two small wind turbines fitted on farm, along with batteries, and is now looking for vehicles that he can run off them, and there is not a large range of EV 4x4 about, which to me is odd, bearing in mind the amount of torque produced by electric motors?

As above though, tend to find that the 4x4 crowd here is split between pick-ups/old Land Rover and Toyota, if you work on the land, and Range Rover/ new Defender if you just own a lot of land, or your wife is taking kids to school, and Grenadier doesn't seem to fit either.

My wife's uncle is probably worth millions on paper, but drives a Isuzu Trooper and i've never seen him out of overalls...

Seems like a perfect Brexit icon, marketed towards a certain type of person who thinks that’s what they want. The reality of it, is that it’s expensive, archaic, unrefined and generally just a bit shit.

and it's got a horn 'toot' button with a bicycle icon on it!

You don't need to toot me - just give me space and avoid me!

My wife’s uncle has large farm here in Norfolk and has done just this, he has just had solar panels and two small wind turbines fitted on farm, along with batteries, and is now looking for vehicles that he can run off them, and there is not a large range of EV 4×4 about, which to me is odd, bearing in mind the amount of torque produced by electric motors?

Plenty of ev buggies about

https://www.polarisbritain.com/ranger/ranger-xp-kinetic/
https://kirklanduk.com/100-electric-corvus/

RustyNissanPrairie
I don’t blame him for using an ex Mercedes turn key/ ready to go French plant.
Just like new Defender is made in Slovakia rather than Solihull.

If that were the only thing I think it could be forgiven but he backed B*t, trumpeted about a new factory in Wales and then pivoted to the French factory anyway all while making this "why don't they make them like they used to?" pastiche. It's overweight, overpriced and looks *. I doubt even the Gammons it's aimed at are interested.

Dealer is having a launch event tonight.

I might walk up and do some inspection. "gastropub" is pushing it. Independent Pub-in-a-box is a better assessment.

My wife’s uncle is probably worth millions on paper, but drives a Isuzu Trooper and i’ve never seen him out of overalls…

This absence of vanity spending is how you stay worth millions.

I don’t blame him for using an ex Mercedes turn key/ ready to go French plant.

plus Magna that did all the chassis development/integration and etc have a large presence at the Hambach.

given the suppliers of the major bits, plus the newness of the Hamback plant and support locally you would would be bonkers to not make use of Hambach.

all from a practical perspective ignoring Brexit, politics etc.

And of course if you want a Defender… there is always Ibex

https://www.ibexvehicles.com/

though imagine Grenadier prospectives would be better off just getting a Land Cruiser?

I had a poke around one of them at one of Johnny Smith's Late Brake show Lives, might have been the Manchester one. Just looked odd and almost like a Chinese Lego copy of a Defender. Spotted the footwell intrusion as soon as I sat in it and the interior really did feel like it was something American and applied using a shotgun. No doubt the off-road capabilities are good but it most definitely didn't look or feel like a premium product.

I did ask about an EV version to the salesman next to it and it was a very telling pause that turned into silence before he started to mumble something. Judging by the talk in the crowd I wasn't the only one or first to ask! It really does feel like it's arrived to market 5-10 years too late.

My mates bought one. He runs a lot of plant and is always towing so that weight thing identified by Rusty will be interesting.
It’s not arrived yet and I have been teasing him a bit about the negative reviews but I haven’t gone full bore yet, despite our friendship lasting over 30+ years since we were 10. It’s just a lot of money to then take the piss mercilessly!

Clear tax advantages to be had for business users of pickups. Ineos do have a commercial version in the pipeline. What I read does contradict what Harry says on the Farm Video about it having two seats or five though..
I would think that there are quite a few utilities companies that would be up for the commercial. These companies have all transitioned to the pickups since LR finished Defender and may be a hard bunch to get change back to a Defender/Grenadier. They do quite a bit of road use so I know what I would prefer.. The cost has got to be a big deal for them though, they are going to have to be getting a BIG discount to change from a HiLux Commercial spec to a Grenadier.
I guess there are very limited MOD requirements for anything like this now, here or abroad. This has to be a large part of why original Defender was finished.

It looks like a kit car and seems to be built about as well as one too. The switch gear is bloody awful and it looks like a 1990's mil-spec G Wagon.

Just walked past one parking in the middle of a certain Llyn Peninsula village more known for its huge numbers of RR, Porsche and AM - it looked a bit out of place (and "crap"), if the owner wanted to impress then he's failed.

There was a Rolls Royce SUV as well but that looked rediculous 😆

Just walked past one parking in the middle of a certain Llyn Peninsula village more known for its huge numbers of RR, Porsche and AM

and not far from the place that does those lovely Mk 1 & Mk 2 Escorts !

Electric functional off road you say?

It is also (afaik) not nil-vat qualifying for some reason, so will cost business buyers 20% more than it should do (which is already a very large sum)

1.5bn in getting it to market..

Which is scary when you consider the volume of off the shelf parts that have been made to fit with (almost) zero modifications.
Nearest project i've done to that, which funnily enough, also robbed the BMW parts bin for engine, diffs, transmission, brakes, steering and so on, cost around half of that to get to market (about a billion US$, give or take), and sold between 50 and 70 thousand a year for over a decade. Also at a very similar price to the Grenadier.

Can't see how 1.5bn to make 6000 a year is ever going to add up. Especially if they have to do a major tear up to keep it legal.

5slab, the version tested would not be vat nil rated. It would need a separate load area. So either a pickup rear end or a bulkhead in the load area. And a 1t payload. There should be versions that do meet those rules on their way.
Some of the very modified off the shelf pickups don’t meet these rules. You rarely see business users in Ranger raptors for this reason.
Also Defender Commercial only has two seats so doesn’t suit many business users as you can’t get the family in it. (Defender can have a third ‘jump seat” between driver and passenger.)

Spotted the footwell intrusion as soon as I sat in it

But only on the UK models, it is not in the European models. I'm surprised they didn't change the routing of the exhaust but then the price is far more than they wanted it to be and more than the land-rover so I guess they just left it.

The price will always start high at launch as there are people who will pay it so they have something very few people own and other people will ask lots of questions about it.

As those sales drop, the price will drop. Lots of special offers, £££s off. 0% finance offers, etc.

They will sell but the question is will they make a profit? Is he bothered if he makes a profit? I think it's all a marketing exercise to get his brand name out there, same as the cycling team.

What do you buy the billionaire that has everything? A cycle team, a car company and a football club?

Are there any good videos out there with the grenadier going head to head with the new land rover?

A couple of years back I did a job for Grenadier at the IAA in Munich a couple of years ago. Turned an old cinema into a pub, well, the facade at least.

Not the nicest looking things in the flesh.

Unfortunately for road users/fortunately for Mr Ineos they'll be enough wealthy idiots willing to spunk their cash on this vanity project.

Did I dream about an EV Grenadier concept about six years ago? It had a huge flat load space and the ability to load long items between the seats almost from bumper to bumper.
I loved the idea, then years later when the Grenadier came out, it had, bizarrely, an ICE and the seats don't fold flat!

We have a Grenadier dealership setting up down the road that still hasn't managed to open after a year or so. I just can't see the demand for these in a proper rural area. Maybe over Harrogate way.

Round here the farmers want an old-style Defender for day to day and probably a nicely-restored old-style Defender for the weekends. Or a Toyota pickup.

pisco
Full Member
Did I dream about an EV Grenadier concept about six years ago? It had a huge flat load space and the ability to load long items between the seats almost from bumper to bumper.
I loved the idea, then years later when the Grenadier came out, it had, bizarrely, an ICE and the seats don’t fold flat!

@Pisco

It was the Bollinger - projected prices doubled then they cancelled it.

https://bollingermotors.com/b1-b2/

So who are these aimed at if they aren't that great as commercial vehicles?

Will they just be yet another ****Panzer™ found badly parked across a couple of disabled bays at supermarkets up and down the land?

Wasnt it on Harrys Garage where he said that the Ineos bloke asked for the writes to the Defender and Land Rover refused, so he just went ahead.

ie a vanity project just to prove it to them. Most be great to have that much money you can settle your feud outside the boardroom and still loose loads of cash

So who are these aimed at if they aren’t that great as commercial vehicles?

People like Harry ^ - you'd think - are exactly who it's targeted to. And he prefers the new defender.... Oops!

Wasnt it on Harrys Garage where he said that the Ineos bloke asked for the writes to the Defender and Land Rover refused, so he just went ahead.

Yep - Ratcliffe wanted to buy the complete Solihull Defender line when original Defender ceased production. IIRC there was talk of LR moving the line abroad to get round legislation??????

Ratcliffe then decided to build his own version, LR took him to court and lost.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33552851/ineos-grenadier-legal-challenge-land-rover-defender/

Ratcliffe also took the GB Americas cup sponsorship when LR decided to move on. It’s safe to say They don’t get on.
I’m not sure it’s a bad commercial just not in the guise Harry tested it isn’t a very good Chelsea Tractor. So that’s a positive in my view.

We have a Grenadier dealership setting up down the road that still hasn’t managed to open after a year or so. I just can’t see the demand for these in a proper rural area. Maybe over Harrogate way.

That the one in Skipton? Thought it was open now? Anyway, they seem to have loads of stock and I've seen them out on a test drive but don't think I've seen a privately owned one yet?

I’m surprised they didn’t change the routing of the exhaust but then the price is far more than they wanted it to be and more than the land-rover so I guess they just left it.

IIRC BMW have quite a few rules on what manufacturers who buy the engines are allowed to change before they can no longer rely on the BMW support for the engine (warranty, software updates blah blah blah.) Would not be at all surprised if the header, manifold, DPF, cats etc are included.
I know there were things that LR were allowed to do as part of BMW that they wouldn't have been able to do as part of ford. But BMW had already signed off on the design...

(It's 20 years since i last dealt with this, so no idea what the *current* state of play is.)

I’ve followed the Ineos grenadier with interest from day one. It promised lots but is way to expensive/compromised now it’s available. Can’t see many folks opting for one of these when the new defender is cheaper/nicer looking etc 🤷‍♂️

But 1.5 billion is pocket change to Mr Ineos !!

Just been up to the dealer to have a sqy at what they’ve sold. Seems they’ve still got the same 12 vehicles they’ve had in stock for a month now. Some have little pieces of paper in them saying “transfer case seals checked” which is interesting as that’s the only mechanical but Ineos made on their own.

They’ve also added two Kombis to the pile, one in a fetching metallic green with a contrasting bright red chassis. For your 60k they’ll throw some beautiful spot welded bits into the openings that would otherwise hold the rear windows. Yum yum.

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The rear bulkhead also appears to have put the rear seats into “rendition flight transfer vertical” setting.

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Those bits about 100mm up from the bottom of the door look like some trim has fallen off.

I think they’re bumpers for the side panniers to rattle against.

I like that green/red one!

I'm sure a good aftermarket supply will spring up for these that will sort some of their issues just like there was for original Defender which was nowhere near perfect🤣

Im impressed that they managed to get Kerb weight up to 2.9 tonnes!
Google tells me an original defender is just over 2T
Modern Range Rover is 2.4T
A proper sized transit is under 2T

Just thicker steel all over?

That the one in Skipton? Thought it was open now? Anyway, they seem to have loads of stock and I’ve seen them out on a test drive but don’t think I’ve seen a privately owned one yet?

Is it? I must admit, I haven't been down Keighley Road for a month or so. I imagine it will do about the same as the Merc showroom it replaced.

They’ve also added two Kombis to the pile, one in a fetching metallic green with a contrasting bright red chassis.

I'm not the market (dunno what the market is, looking at that though).

Just thicker steel all over?

Body on frame construction + "luxury" spec level. IIRC that sort of construction on a car like the Disco 3/4 and Range Rover Sport accounted for about 350-400 kilos of the vehicle weight. Some of it is the frame itself, a lot of it is the design direction it pushes you in with the rest of the vehicle.

FWIW the Disco 3/4 and RRS bodies were almost stiff enough that you could have just bracketed all the underbody stuff to the body, project Binky style.

And the Disco 5 was about 300 kilos lighter than the 5, as they went to unibody/monocoque.

I was really surprised by the weight, for me it fails to give train weight payload advantage over the Hilux/Dmax/Ranger alternatives. Still nothing coming through that offers the same capabilities as my old shape Defender 130 that spends a reasonable amount of time around it's 7t gtw.

The Grenadier was looking so promising on spec and the build up but a bit mleh. Think I'll be looking for a van and a tractor with 60k box when the lease company want the 130 back.

dunno what the market is, looking at that though

“Do you work for a wealthy flag-carrying NGO? Do your envoys spend all their time travelling unpaved roads and need slightly compromised transport to project UK plc to the natives? Do you operate an inconvenient distance from a Toyota dealer?”

Do you operate an inconvenient distance from a Toyota dealer?”

HA. THat's it i reckon.

Do you operate an inconvenient distance from a Toyota dealer?”

Distance is irrelevant if you're driving a Toyota 70 series - you'll always get there!

https://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-70

*Out of interest - I just googled, the heaviest 70 series (LWB Troopy) is 2255kg. Towing weight is 3500kg

I wonder how long Ineos will last when this hits the market! Rugged looks + reliability + cheaper!...

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/usa/americas-new-toyota-land-cruiser-boxy-butch-hybrid

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Aye looks tasty the new Land Cruiser 😎

New Land Cruiser looks bloody good. Coming to Europe too, but as a 2.8 diesel first

Nice LC, also shows just how much Landrover ****ed up with new Defender.

Loads of the Toyota and Lexus at Avonmouth Dock when I was there recently. Not sure they are all for the UK market mind you as some stuff is trans shipped.

Nice LC, also shows just how much Landrover **** up with new Defender.

No, no I disagree. Land rover got it spot on for their market, i.e. shifting chelsea tractors to wealthy city dwellers, it where the money is! The heritage only helps sell to wealthy asian markets. They can't make them fast enough.

If we are talking about tough, affordable practical small 4x4 trucks then I reckon this has the original 1949 Land Rover brief (more) nailed:

GWM Tank 300:

Sadly not coming to the UK. Because the only thing that sells is chelsea tractors.

Like the look of that Land Cruiser, should sell really well

Saw a Grenadier sat on the hard shoulder a few days ago, had hit a van up the rear. The van had just some damage to the rear doors and lights, the Grenadier had the whole front pushed upwards hinging at the windscreen bottom. Didn't look very good in a slow speed crash at all! But then most body on frame vehicles are poor on that front anyway, nowhere to dissipate the energy other than down the rails.

No, no I disagree. Land rover got it spot on for their market, i.e. shifting chelsea tractors to wealthy city dwellers

Well I did see one the other day pulling a sheep trailer.

Unless I'm missing something obvious there doesn't seem to be anyone doing cheap, short wheelbase, 4x4's with a good towing capacity. They were everywhere once.

Well I did see one the other day pulling a sheep trailer.

Yeah theres a few hobbyist retire to the country types around here with them

Unless I’m missing something obvious there doesn’t seem to be anyone doing cheap, short wheelbase, 4×4’s with a good towing capacity. They were everywhere once.

Because only 5 people in the UK want to do that. The rest bought those 4x4s because they are higher up and there was no other option hence why there was loads about.

Plenty of farmers and horsey folk around here (Herefordshire/Welsh borders) seem to be running new Defenders and all manner of Land Rover vehicles. Quite why, I'm not sure, but if you can afford to buy/lease/PCP one and keep it in warranty, I suppose why not. Electric isn't going to cut it in the countryside proper for decades to come, if ever and there is a gap opening up (even wider) for a true utilitarian 4x4 with good load and towing capacity.

Saw a grenadier on a stand at a show yesterday, the finished article does look a bit better than the pre-prod models that were doing the rounds last year, but they still look like a mish mash of components chucked together as an old Defender rip-off.

One is driving about Bridge of Allan - a very suitable place for it! Looks like a Humvee without the bash plates, absolutely massive. Can't see the appeal myself but it'll no doubt sell.

Muffin, that would be a pickup for most working people/business types.

I see one out in the wild regularly now. Think it's probably the owner of the garage that stocks them though!

As for Defenders, North Yorkshire is full of them, even the farms.

Yep just come from two weeks in North Wales and there are new Defenders EVERYWHERE not just Abersoch

I’d it’s near Strasbourg I’ve Just driven past the grenadier factory today. Like the look of that land cruiser. Seems a far more resolved design.