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My "gravel" bike is a rigid steel MTB on fast 2.2 tyres with full mudguards. Normal handlebar not drop. It's great for evening rides from home on old railways, old tracks that never became roads, farm tracks, and bridleways. On a suspension fork you'd call it smooth, but a lot of it isn't really - a lot of hard packed stone.
Hand comfort predictably isn't very good. I do slow down and pick my lines where necessary. It's not painful but after a 2 hour evening ride I'm still feeling it the next morning and even into the evening slightly. Can't be good for me long term. Contrast with doing the same ride on my trail full suspension (less appropriate overall for the route) and my hands feel normal at the end of the ride.
What are your comfort tips for rigid?
The fork is a steel Kona P2. I've read that carbon forks help with comfort but I'm not sure it'd help much. I like the low maintenance of this bike, cargo mounts, and running full guards, so not really interested in a suspension fork. The now discontinued Lauf elastomer forks do half what I want.
The first change I'm about to do is swap the 9deg backsweep handlebar for a 12deg. Because I was amazed on my trail bike how much better going from 8 to 9 and then 10 degrees was.
I'm also planning to try Ergon GA3 mini wing grips after reading some recommendations here.
Other things I've seen are RevGrips, Fasst Flex suspension handlebar (expensive and rise is too low), and suspension stem (expensive and too long). No room in the mudguards for a bigger tyre. Saddle comfort is fine so no need for suspension seatposts or elastomer saddles (BikeYoke Sagma, SQlab).
Oh and I've already done the free one and lowered the front tyre pressure to 26psi on 2.2" XC tyres for my 70kg weight. It did help with smaller chatter. They balloon out a bit much for my liking below that, feel slower on the smooth, and have me a bit worried about damaging them or the rim - I used to run 2.4" trail tyres at 23psi on my suspension bike before I fitted inserts.
So what have you tried and what have you settled with?
As well as backsweep what about a bit of rise in the new bars? Might take a bit of weight off your hands if that’s where you’re feeling it after a ride. Ergon grips work well for me too.
I've tried a few different handlebars on my rigid Stooge - from normal riser, wide backswept moto bars, Jones style, and I've finally settled on On One OG bars as the perfect level of back sweep and rise.
They are comfy for all day riding, but you still have decent control on bumpier bits
I did find them a little narrow, but I've added some 30mm extensions to each end (aluminium push in jobs) and they're spot on now 👍
Can’t be good for me long term.
You’re right. If your hands are hurting then it’s possible that it’s doing long term damage.
I run Cushcore with light(er) casings at lower pressures, carbon bars and Revgrips. It’s notable that when my suspension forks weren’t working properly, I was still getting arm pump. How bad that would have been without all the other addenda I do not know.
I use OneUp carbon bars (35mm so you'll need a new stem) and Revgrips. (and a carbon fork and more recently a 2.6" tyre)
It might be worth getting a different fork as a bigger tyre will make the most difference, or change mudguard type.
What tyre pressure are you running currently?
I'd always Lower tyre pressure, and try foam grips before chucking money at other things.
Also look at position rather than just bar backsweep, are you putting too much weight on your hands due to being a bit stretched out or too arse up? It's quite easy to have a setup that feels comfortable at first but ultimately over an hour or two puts excess pressure on one area or another and hurts you.
I’ve not tried inserts, but it seem it would be be when investigating. I think the stabilise the tyre at lower pressure.
Fwiw 26psi is what I run in the rear on a 27.5 hardtail that sees most of it's riding at Eastridge. Albeit enduro casing tyre. And I'm 110kg.
I love the idea and simplicity of rigid, but even with 27.5 x 2.8 tyres I find it beats me up too much and I feel like I’ve arthritis everywhere. Just re-fitted suspension forks to my hard tail, but am even contemplating selling it and sticking FS… could be an age thing as it’s only started to bother me in the last few years (riding is Quantocks, so rougher than what you describe though)
Ritchey Kyote bars and ergon grips work well for me. I've got bigger tyres 27.5 3/2.8 or 29 2.6/2.4. I love the 3/2.8's for riding on the south downs. I just got 29's for winter but did the SDW in a day on them last year and had no discomfort riding or after. I was 57 at the time so not down to youth 😊
In contrast my 1986 Rockhopper would leave a 21 year old me feeling wrecked after a day out.
Edit - tyre pressure 9-11 on the 27.5 and 12-15 on the 29
Tyre pressure +1
It's not too low unless you actually do hit the rim right?
Or else too much weight on your hands
I've put some OO Mary bars and some Specialized ergonomic grips onto my commuter, the bars made a significant difference. It does have the effect of sitting me more upright though so you could try a shorter stem to bring your weight back a bit, or scoot your saddle forwards just to try it. Wider bars may also help, i find narrow bars put me on the 'heel' of my palm more than with a decent width, although i appreciate 800mm bars on a gravel bike would be counter-intuitive!
i wouldnt bother with inserts personally, in my experience they dull the tire, even with a lower pressure. On the front of a rigid bike i cant see them being much fun or comfortable.
Another option that may provide some relief, gel padded gloves. I was given some (Endura i think) padded fingerless gloves as a present a while ago and they are noticeably more comfortable over a longer period of riding.
I use these on the bar ends
I use these grips
I use in board bar ends with silicon grips but I think the biggest difference is either the trek 1120 carbon fork or the 29er x 2.6 inch tyre. Steerer is uncut with several spacers underneath to take as much pressure off my hands as possible.
Didn't notice any difference between Ali handle bar and carbon.
With this set up I have multiple hand positions and rotate frequently
26 psi sounds pretty high to me for a front wheel on XC rides. With a 2.2" tyre I'd be in the low 20's, and I weigh ~7kg more than you
With an insert in there you could go even lower -- Rimpact are much cheaper and lighter than a Cushcore. I assume you're running tubeless? What tyre? And what internal width of rim?
The other thing would be getting some massive silicon grips. I have Wolf Tooth Fat Paw -- they dwarf even larger rubber lock on's, and with my hand problems I likely couldn't ride without them
Wider rims for more tyre volume?
Redshift shockstop stem
https://redshiftsports.com/collections/shockstop-suspension-stem-and-accessories?gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwgZCoBhBnEiwAz35RwrhlHmCGjSj6W8M00zcAf8fW9CPzdf8Qg9Y3df71Pw_Oj3C26ZBDyhoCAFwQAvD_BwE
Though you may be currently limited to 80mm as the shortest. Have got one on my gravel bike and really improves front end comfort. They were planning to release a 60mm version this year but doesnt seem to have come out yet (i'll be putting one on my rigid mtb!)
Cane Creek do one as well.
I have a carbon Firestarter fork on mine, which seems to move a lot. I also have 2.3 Racing Ralphs at 23psi which are plenty fast but comfy - they have the sidewall support to be run at low pressures and not bounce or squirm. But one of the best upgrades is a high sweep flat bar (was previously an One One Fleegle, is now a Salsa Bend 2) with Ergon wing shaped grips. The wide shape really takes the pressure off your palms.
Fasst Flex suspension handlebar
My exes boyfriend uses these, as he has some issues around nerve damage in his arms and shoulders.
If you're worried about lower pressures slowing you down, or them feeling like they do. Get some better tyres.
I'm running 2.3" at around 25 psi and am, errr, significantly heavier than you.
It's more about the carcass and the construction than the name/tread. Putting the tread pattern of a high end race tyre on a cheap single ply casing using plastic instead of decent rubber will still make it a slow tyre...
With a 2.2″ tyre I’d be in the low 20’s,
40psi in 1.9" Panaracer Fire XC Pros back in the day - and Pace RC30's up front - proper hard! You've all gone soft! 🤣
Slide-on grips like those Wolftooth ones mentioned earlier are going to have more give/damping than a lock-on grip thanks to not losing mm to the plastic tube.
But that said I love the ergon wing grip thing. Takes some experimentation to get the perfect angle but worth persevering.
Wider rims for more tyre volume?
This. 100mm rims.
Spank Vibrocore bar?
Comfort is like saving weight in that its incremental savings across all components.
So how far do you want to go?
Tyres - not just pressure, but carcass too.
Wheel - flat section rims built at reduced tensions with less spokes. Not much point running looser spokes if the rim is too stiff to flex much though. Vibrocore rims also exist.
Frame - compliant design -material choice is part of that.
Bars - my personal favourite are vibrocore. Not all carbon bars are created the same.
Grips - a few good options here.
Personally, I think you should start at the input point and work upwards. But thats my scientific training on how vibration/noise attenuates.
YMMV
Thanks all!
4″ tyres.
It's meant to be a mountain biker's gravel bike, so anything over 2.3-2.4" wouldn't be in keeping with that.
As well as backsweep what about a bit of rise in the new bars? Might take a bit of weight off your hands if that’s where you’re feeling it after a ride. Ergon grips work well for me too.
They're higher rise so was planning to remove a spacer to compensate, but I'll try without later. I've already gone from the original 15mm rise to 38mm with as many spacers as will fit underneath, the new one is 45mm.
Suspension? 😂
Could well be less hassle than trying everything on this thread, and much cheaper! I've seen some brackets for putting a full length mudguard (essential for poo) on a suspension fork, but I'd have to give up my front rack which is great for commuting and errands.
I run Cushcore with light(er) casings at lower pressures, carbon bars and Revgrips. It’s notable that when my suspension forks weren’t working properly, I was still getting arm pump. How bad that would have been without all the other addenda I do not know.
Inserts - will consider if I get the pressures that low.
Carbon bars - didn't find anything with the right rise, width, and backsweep other than the €280 carbon version of the SQlab one I'm getting.
RevGrips - I like to run my hands on the ends of the bars so don't like any outer lockring let alone their huge one. An option for later though.
I use OneUp carbon bars (35mm so you’ll need a new stem) and Revgrips. (and a carbon fork and more recently a 2.6″ tyre)
It might be worth getting a different fork as a bigger tyre will make the most difference, or change mudguard type
Did you have a steel fork previously? If so, how much difference did the carbon fork make?
The 2.2" tyres are maxing out the Velo Orange 63s, so would need to swap to Bluemels 75 which can take 3".
What tyre pressure are you running currently?
I’d always Lower tyre pressure, and try foam grips before chucking money at other things.
I've already gone down to 26F 29R. I should try lower, this gravel pressure guide recommends 22F 24R for a 2".
Also look at position rather than just bar backsweep, are you putting too much weight on your hands due to being a bit stretched out or too arse up? It’s quite easy to have a setup that feels comfortable at first but ultimately over an hour or two puts excess pressure on one area or another and hurts you.
Or else too much weight on your hands
The riding position is within a few mm to my trail bike which is fine. But I'm changing position more when riding that, so good point. Drop the stem from 50mm to 40mm perhaps.
Tyre pressure +1
It’s not too low unless you actually do hit the rim right?
Yes, worth experimenting and add inserts if needed.
I’ve put some OO Mary bars and some Specialized ergonomic grips onto my commuter, the bars made a significant difference. It does have the effect of sitting me more upright though so you could try a shorter stem to bring your weight back a bit, or scoot your saddle forwards just to try it. Wider bars may also help, i find narrow bars put me on the ‘heel’ of my palm more than with a decent width, although i appreciate 800mm bars on a gravel bike would be counter-intuitive!
i wouldnt bother with inserts personally, in my experience they dull the tire, even with a lower pressure. On the front of a rigid bike i cant see them being much fun or comfortable.
Another option that may provide some relief, gel padded gloves. I was given some (Endura i think) padded fingerless gloves as a present a while ago and they are noticeably more comfortable over a longer period of riding.
Stem is on the list to try now. Saddle is as far forward as it'll go while having the saddle bag on.
Inserts have been good for me on the trail bike after reducing pressure to restore comfort.
I use these on the bar ends
I use these grips
Ergon GS1 Grips
I use in board bar ends with silicon grips but I think the biggest difference is either the trek 1120 carbon fork or the 29er x 2.6 inch tyre. Steerer is uncut with several spacers underneath to take as much pressure off my hands as possible.
Didn’t notice any difference between Ali handle bar and carbon.
With this set up I have multiple hand positions and rotate frequently
Rotating hand positions sounds a good idea.
I'll consider a bigger wing grip rather than the mini wing GA3 I had in mind.
That fork looks perfect if it makes a big difference. All the right holes for guards and rack.
26 psi sounds pretty high to me for a front wheel on XC rides. With a 2.2″ tyre I’d be in the low 20’s, and I weigh ~7kg more than you
With an insert in there you could go even lower — Rimpact are much cheaper and lighter than a Cushcore. I assume you’re running tubeless? What tyre? And what internal width of rim?
The other thing would be getting some massive silicon grips. I have Wolf Tooth Fat Paw — they dwarf even larger rubber lock on’s, and with my hand problems I likely couldn’t ride without them
I'll try lower.
Yes I have Rimpacts on my trail bike and have seen their other models.
Tubeless yes, Conti Cross King Protection front, 25mm rim.
Interesting grips, might those before the winged ones.
Only live once, ride a comfy bike with suspension and gears.
Fair point, get a full suspension XC bike, pay a shop to maintain it, spend less time talking on the forum about a problem which suspension was created to solve!
Wider rims for more tyre volume?
I think I could go as high as I'd want to for this bike on 25mm, with bigger mudguards.
Redshift shockstop stem
ShockStop Products & Accessories
Though you may be currently limited to 80mm as the shortest. Have got one on my gravel bike and really improves front end comfort. They were planning to release a 60mm version this year but doesnt seem to have come out yet (i’ll be putting one on my rigid mtb!)
Cane Creek do one as well.
I'll ask them about shorter ones, there must be a market for 40-50mm for rigid MTBs, if the design can be made compact enough.
I have a carbon Firestarter fork on mine, which seems to move a lot. I also have 2.3 Racing Ralphs at 23psi which are plenty fast but comfy – they have the sidewall support to be run at low pressures and not bounce or squirm. But one of the best upgrades is a high sweep flat bar (was previously an One One Fleegle, is now a Salsa Bend 2) with Ergon wing shaped grips. The wide shape really takes the pressure off your palms.
I'd struggle to pay suspension fork money for a rigid fork really.
About the same type of tyre as my Conti Cross King then.
Not enough rise on those Salsa bars. The bars I'm getting are 12 degree but there's a 16 degree too, I wasn't sure which to try first.
If you’re worried about lower pressures slowing you down, or them feeling like they do. Get some better tyres.
I’m running 2.3″ at around 25 psi and am, errr, significantly heavier than you.
It’s more about the carcass and the construction than the name/tread. Putting the tread pattern of a high end race tyre on a cheap single ply casing using plastic instead of decent rubber will still make it a slow tyre…
Conti Cross/Race King ProTection Black Chilli so the tyres are as good as any, about the fastest in the XC class on rolling resistance tests. I just need to go lower pressure. It was interesting when I chose them how much more rolling resistance the cheaper casings tested at, it was almost twice as much.
Slide-on grips like those Wolftooth ones mentioned earlier are going to have more give/damping than a lock-on grip thanks to not losing mm to the plastic tube.
But that said I love the ergon wing grip thing. Takes some experimentation to get the perfect angle but worth persevering.
Maybe I should try a winged grip on one side and a fat grip on the other!
Spank Vibrocore bar?
Tried one on my trail bike out of curiosity, the backsweep is 8 degrees and it was substantially less comfortable than the OEM 9 degree bar.
Comfort is like saving weight in that its incremental savings across all components.
So how far do you want to go?
Tyres – not just pressure, but carcass too.
Wheel – flat section rims built at reduced tensions with less spokes. Not much point running looser spokes if the rim is too stiff to flex much though. Vibrocore rims also exist.
Frame – compliant design -material choice is part of that.
Bars – my personal favourite are vibrocore. Not all carbon bars are created the same.
Grips – a few good options here.
Wheels are 25mm XC with 28 spokes, quite new and no appetite for replacing them.
Frame is Reynolds 520 steel, but it's probably still quite stiff as it's designed as an adventure/bikepacking type bike.
Personally, I think you should start at the input point and work upwards. But thats my scientific training on how vibration/noise attenuates.
Makes sense. I'm taking a few shortcuts based on common solutions and cost.
Anyone said go slower, stay loose yet?
Get off and walk!
Don't ride rooty/rocky trails or popular trails covered in braking bumps!
Pretty much what everyone else has said - wider, softer, tubeless tyres is the start. 3" are great on my stooge.
Losing lock on grips made a massive difference, large ribbed mushroom style BMX grips are lovely.
Anyone said go slower, stay loose yet?
What an interesting idea. Someone said the same when I started bike commuting - there's no need to ride fast and get sweaty.
I think part of it is that the riding position is almost identical to my trail bike so to ride differently needs intentional thinking. I've forgotten that a few times and had a few hairy moments, mainly front wheel slides.
Fit a 25mm bar and stem. Try fitting regular chunky grips, not lock-on type.
Loosen the spokes a turn or two
Lots of stuff helps and yes tyres can make a big difference... But for me bars made a bigger one. I wouldn't have believed it if I'd not experienced it. I had a rigid Scandal which I was riding all over without any issues, replaced it with a fatbike and I was literally stopping after a minute of technical descending because of hand pain despite all that extra tyre, and having outright safety issues with grip and brakes. I switched on my favorite rigid-bike bar- an ancient Crank Bros Cobalt 11- and literally went from that, to being able to ride it all day without a twinge.
(you can literally see them bend, so, ymmv about drawbacks! But other bars that boast comfiness are available)
I'd 100% rather ride a bike with skinny tyres and those bars, than increase the tyre size but have to have stiff bars.
I changed my bars on my cx bike from Deda Zero2 standard dropbars to Ribble/LEVEL Flared dropbars. The new bars are much stiffer which isn't ideal but I do like the shape.
I use my sorta fat winter bike (4” rear tire) as a 29+ rigid bike in summer in Colorado. Trying to keep bikes simple is close to my heart, good on you. What about a 2.4 front tire and lower psi (22-24) to start? Bars and grips would be next. Ritchey Kyote bars and SQLab 30X w/ 15 degree sweep are both known to me, have some compliance, and hugely helped my shoulder and wrist pain. Ergon GA3 grips have been very good for wrist and hand numbness, without looking too ergo, for those who care. Rigid fork materials IMO make far less difference in ride comfort than tires. Steel forks last essentially forever, and carbon not so much.
What’s the bike?
I’m afraid I don’t have any advice other than suspension, as that’s what I did. I’ve relegated my rigid 90’ Konas to gentle stuff like converted railway tracks.
That fork looks perfect if it makes a big difference. All the right holes for guards and rack.
The forks are really good. I like the alliminium steerer so you don't have to use a fork bung. I found with my previous rigid carbon fork the headset would come loose.
The trek 1120 fork comes up for sale on ebay every now and then. The last pair sold for less than £150.
For the OP, i went back Redshift on their development of shorter Shockstop stems as id been patiently for one myself. They confirmed they are in final stages of development and should make it to production:
We are full steam ahead on producing shorter stem lengths at this juncture though it has taken a little longer than we expected. I can say that we don't have an exact release date but we're hopeful to launch them late this year/very early next year.
Only problem is this the same response i got last year 🙁
Did you have a steel fork previously? If so, how much difference did the carbon fork make?
No, the bike came with carbon forks so not compared directly.
I’m also using the OneUp / Revgrips combo. Would’ve been cheaper to buy some suspension forks TBH!
Revgrips are excellent and would recommend, but only one ride on the OneUp so far (but even if they make no difference they look the business).
Fit a 25mm bar and stem. Try fitting regular chunky grips, not lock-on type.
I'll be trying chunky non-lockons first now rather than winged ones. They seem more appropriate for vibration issues.
Loosen the spokes a turn or two
That's a can of worms I don't want to start messing about with.
What about a 2.4 front tire and lower psi (22-24) to start?
Going to try the lower psi in my existing tyres. Bigger tyre is a bit down the order as it means replacing the front mudguard, which is a PITA to make everything fit with the front rack.
Ritchey Kyote bars and SQLab 30X w/ 15 degree sweep are both known to me, have some compliance, and hugely helped my shoulder and wrist pain.
Sounds promising, I went for the 30X 12 degree but not fitted them yet.
Ergon GA3 grips have been very good for wrist and hand numbness, without looking too ergo, for those who care.
They were the first grip I was going to try, but after this thread I'll be trying chunky grips first, and then Ergon GS1 (bigger wing) if needed.
What’s the bike?
Kona Unit X.
The forks are really good. I like the alliminium steerer so you don’t have to use a fork bung. I found with my previous rigid carbon fork the headset would come loose.
The trek 1120 fork comes up for sale on ebay every now and then. The last pair sold for less than £150.
Might give one a go at that price. They say it's suspension corrected for 100mm same as mine, but the A2C is 510mm whereas mine is 470mm. All a bit of a PITA due to getting fork, mudguard and rack to fit nicely together though.
For the OP, i went back Redshift on their development of shorter Shockstop stems
Great, just done the same so they're aware there are people out there wanting them to take our money.
@bikesandboots, I think that Trek fork would seriously mess with the geometry of a Unit
40mm longer, plus another 10mm or so as I think you'd need a new lower headset to accomodate the tapered steerer. So that'd probably slacken the HA by 2.5 degrees and raise the BB about 20mm or something.
Surely with the Unit X fork, you could get a different guard and fit a 29 x 2.6" or even 2.8" tyre? The Unit fork clearance is good even with a 29 x 3.0" in there if I remember rightly
Suspension 😉
Gravel Bikes FFS. What will be invented next 😉 ... Carpet Biking with extra Baggage.
40mm longer, plus another 10mm or so as I think you’d need a new lower headset to accomodate the tapered steerer. So that’d probably slacken the HA by 2.5 degrees and raise the BB about 20mm or something.
Yes that would be needed. I wrote the "might give it a go" before I noticed that Kona and Trek disagree on the A2C of a 100mm suspension corrected rigid fork.
Surely with the Unit X fork, you could get a different guard and fit a 29 x 2.6″ or even 2.8″ tyre? The Unit fork clearance is good even with a 29 x 3.0″ in there if I remember rightly
Yes, the only reason to replace the fork would be for a more comfortable one.
Drop your seat a little to move your weight off the bars? Shorter stem to.achive similar?
If you're happy with a shorter a2c there's tons of choice of carbon forks out there.
Bigger tyres? Maybe not fat bike sized but bigger than 2.2 and lower pressures. Rev Grips, one up or Fasst Flex bars. Ride smoother trails on it.
Bigger tyres... 2.4-2.6 on 30-40mm rims. Makes a big difference and you can still have tyre spec that works in winter, most terrain and conditions. I didn't get that from B-Plus 2.8-3.0s. 2.4-2.6s run fine on the front at 20PSI.
Foam+cork mix grips, fixed to the bar with photomount
Swept bars and a rearward bias riding position, bars close to level with the saddle
None of this 77 degree seat angle stuff, sit further back
I have all this but not a flexy fork, not a fan of flex there on MTBs. Still it's a comfy bike overall, good for anywhere that's not really rocky or rooty.
Comfort is like saving weight in that its incremental savings across all components.
It's better than that, it more than just adds up - the stacked springs effect means that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts when it comes to flex and comfort. 2 springs of the same rate have half that spring rate when they're stacked up. I didn't know about this until a few yrs ago, feels daft in hindsight not to have looked up spring rate calcs before when looking at rigid bike comfort, but the basic effect is simple force and equal opposite reaction stuff.
Redshift said they're working on a 55mm and 70mm for the end of this year or early next, in case anyone's interested.
@bikesandboots i also run a Kona Unit X, it's my only mtb. I've been refining the best setup combinations over the past couple of years, and it's now in a place where it's comfortable for long rides on all kinds of terrain. Worth saying I still find it a fairly chunky frameset, and it's not that compliant.
- The Unit has a fairly low stack, so getting the bars to a comfortable height needs some focus. I've found Stooge Moto bars really good for getting higher and having nice sweep (tried SQlabs30x16 which didn't rise enough), paired with Ergon GE3 grips. The grips are excellent and not too extreme.
- There's room to play about with longer forks. I have a pair of carbon exotic forks with a/c of 490mm and they feel much more comfortable the the steel P2s, plus they increase the stack height of the frame a bit.
- Tyres: 2.6 front and rear mostly, on 30mm rims, sometimes down to 2.35/2.4 when I want more speed on easier terrain. I know it's a faff with mudguards and rack, but you'll reap the benefits of a bigger tyres. And tweak pressure downwards until it feels right, small increments make a surprising difference in comfort.
- as Jameso said, put the saddle back not forward
Drop your seat a little to move your weight off the bars? Shorter stem to.achive similar?
Probably will try a 40mm stem, but I don't think a lower saddle will suit my pedal stroke.
Swept bars and a rearward bias riding position, bars close to level with the saddle
None of this 77 degree seat angle stuff, sit further back
– as Jameso said, put the saddle back not forward
That's interesting and counter-intuitive, I thought a longer saddle to bar distance would stretch me out and put more weight on my hands. With the saddle central, I was finding myself shifting forward on it like the top tube was too long, so I don't think this will work. I can try 10mm back if I put a 10mm shorter stem on though.
Worth saying I still find it a fairly chunky frameset, and it’s not that compliant.
I was expecting so due to what it's designed for, despite being steel. That said, I can't see the frame contributing much to feedback coming straight up the fork into my hands.
– The Unit has a fairly low stack, so getting the bars to a comfortable height needs some focus. I’ve found Stooge Moto bars really good for getting higher and having nice sweep (tried SQlabs30x16 which didn’t rise enough), paired with Ergon GE3 grips. The grips are excellent and not too extreme.
Yes, way too low for me in OEM spec with 20mm of spacers and a 15mm riser. I put a 38mm on it straight away, and my new 30X12 bar is the 45mm rise version. Will be trying non-lockon grips now before GA3s.
Ride smoother trails on it.
Yes there's definitely an aspect of this. The bike needs to stay a "gravel" bike, so I'm not putting chunky tyres etc. on it. The riding position encourages me a bit to ride it like a MTB, so taking it easy downhill doesn't happen naturally.
The thing about putting your saddle back is it moves your centre of gravity back relative to the BB. That's what really affects the weight your hands have to support, more than the distance from saddle to bar. Matching that with moving the bar / grips some way back might work well too, doesn't need to be the same distance though.
The bike needs to stay a “gravel” bike, so I’m not putting chunky tyres etc
Pretty happy with Terreno 2.25s in summer, on 30mm rims, for mixed terrain gravel plus kind of rides. Would go a size bigger if they made them.
I've Stooge Moto bars on two bikes (one a Stooge) and in both cases helped move my weight off the bars. They have a nice rise and sweep. They are wide though so might need a trim.
Worth saying I still find it a fairly chunky frameset, and it’s not that compliant.
I was expecting so due to what it’s designed for, despite being steel. That said, I can’t see the frame contributing much to feedback coming straight up the fork into my hands.
My friend converted his carbon 456 to a gravel bike. Carbon 29er fork with a 650b front tyre and 26 rear tyre. The frame is incredibly stiff. He gets beat up on technical descents. Some of it is wheel size but it's mainly the frame.
Some times you need to accept a bike doesn't work for you and you need to move on.
Foam grips work well.
my rigid (singlespeed too!) has plus tyres (2.8s). its the only valid use for plus tyres in existence haha!
abut 20 psi. comfey enough to ride fast, jumps etc but makes teh flat trails locally interesting.
I`m baffled why someone would ride rigid offroad with skinny tyres?? makes no sense to me!
there used to be plenty of fatter (but not full fat) fast rolling tyres out there.
I think the unit also got significantly longer and slacker in 2020(?), and the seat angle got steep at the time -- 65 deg or something, which is quite steep for a rigid bike
So a super short stem with the saddle moved back could help
Some times you need to accept a bike doesn’t work for you and you need to move on.
Agreed, I'm wary of trying everything to make a bike something it can't be. Hence just a few things to try before I decide whether to accept it as is and amend some of my routes, or swap or N+1.
Went another step down with tyre pressures, to 23 psi front, 26 rear. Made more difference than 29/32 to 26/29 did. Front of the bike feels a lot less lively, and you can feel both ends of the bike bounce a little on bigger (but still relatively small) impacts/landings. My hands now feel fine post-ride.
Still going to try 12deg bars as I can feel pressure points, and also push-on grips.
The tyre pressures were a huge improvement as I said, but after a few rides I realised it still wasn't perfect. I think it mostly solved the vibration and shock aspects, but not the weight going through my hands. The softening of the ground in winter probably helped too, and the lower speeds due to slipperiness.
Tried the SQlab 12deg bar in 45mm rise which was too much backsweep. I could feel the ends digging into my outer palms, the weight not distributed across my hands. I already knew 9/10deg was better than 8 for me, so this confirms it as the sweet spot. Refitted my 9deg 38mm bar for a while to reset my perceptions.
The small amount of additional rise was good though, so I went looking for a 9deg 31.8mm handlebar with a higher rise. Very few options around (most are 8deg or 35mm only), so I went for the Deity Highside in 50mm (they also do 80mm). This was indeed better so it's staying on.
Next experiment was push-on grips. Replaced Gusset S2 lock-ons with Wolf Tooth Karv silicons (round variant). Didn't want to go for chunky ones straight away so as to avoid changing multiple things at once, these are the same diameter and feel the same to hold. Again these are comfier, didn't have to move my hands for relief and felt completely fine throughout and after the ride. Also a bit more absorbing of small bumps and broken tarmac. I wasn't really expecting them to do anything for weight pain as they're the same shape, more an improvement in absorption due to the softness, but they did both and I guess it's all related.
Going to leave it like this for a while now, but I want to try a winged grip at some point. Ergon GS1 or SQlab 710. I wonder if the shape and wing would make up for going back to a lock-on.
The top of the grips are now 13cm higher than the top middle of the saddle, so unless anyone would recommend it I'm not particularly inclined to try those 80mm bars.
Exotic's carbon forks are pretty comfortable ime, also very flexy- you can literalyl see them bending on braking. That helps with comfort in a couple of ways, they transmit less but also they work in some ways like a sort of lateral leaf spring, and that soaks up/redirects a little force. I was never really aware of it when riding but to be fair I'm not generally very aware of fork stiffness after a few minutes. They're also pretty confidence inspiring- I had some super light super stiff carbon forks and I was always a bit scared of them but I felt very comfy riding hard on the exotics, and Scotroutes has my set still and I think they're still in use how ever many years on.
If you can find a set then Crank Bros did a slightly deranged carbon bar, the Cobalt 11, which is 780mm wide, flat, weighs as much as a wet fart and bents like it's made of rubber. Long discontinued but I absolutely love mine, I had them on a rigid scandal then on my fatbike and they are bloody disconcerting to see bend, but it doesn't seem to add up to any loss of control.
I think it mostly solved the vibration and shock aspects, but not the weight going through my hands.
Did you try a layback post or just sliding the saddle back 10-20mm?
Going from 2.3 to 2.6 tyres made a noticeable difference in comfort to me on my hardtail.
Put 2.6 on the front for grip, then noticed the comfort and went to 2.6 on the back as well.
I didn't notice a difference in speed or rolling resistance, but mostly the bike gear used for sub 15 miles sliding round the woods. Bit of rain making the trail change makes quite a difference to speed
Has anyone mentioned 29er and modern geometry...
Old bikes with old geometry are generally crashy in the rough which in turn beats you
Going to leave it like this for a while now, but I want to try a winged grip at some point. Ergon GS1 or SQlab 710. I wonder if the shape and wing would make up for going back to a lock-on.
Having switched from silicon push-on grips to the the Ergon GS1 Evo on my Ritchey Kyote bars, I wish I'd done it years ago. The difference is phenomenal, took a few adjustments to get the angles right but I don't get any hand pain on longer rides now. Much more support on the outside edge of the palm and I don't have any issues gripping the bars on more technical stuff.
Cheers, unfortunately we already established this would mess up the geo.
Did you try a layback post or just sliding the saddle back 10-20mm?
I did think about this a few times after you suggested it, but then forgot.
The bike came with a 20mm layback and I was finding myself sliding forward on the saddle despite it being all the way forward. Also feeling my body bent forward more than I wanted, having to bend my neck to look forward when sat down. So I replaced it with an inline post which was better but still sliding forward. Then I replaced it with a Thomson bent tube layback post fitted back to front giving 16mm of layforward, which solved it.
The saddle-stem clamp distance is the same as my FS bike now, and the centre of the saddle is 13cm behind the BB (9cm on FS bike). As it came from the factory with the layback post, it would have been 16.6cm behind. I think the most I could try without unsolving my aforementioned issue is an inline (not layback) post, and going down from a 50mm to 40mm stem to compensate (possibly with steering feel effects). Can't be running a shorter stem than that to compensate for a layback post.
Has anyone mentioned 29er and modern geometry…
Old bikes with old geometry are generally crashy in the rough which in turn beats you
It's a 29er Kona Unit X. Geo doesn't seem massively old school for this type of bike.
Low tyre pressure with inserts.
Relax.
Don’t slow down unless you have to.
+1 on the exotic carbon fork. I've got a 490mm long version on my 2012 trek superfly. It's by far the comfiest rigid fork I've tried, but it also feels great from a handling point of view.
(It's actually the comfiest rigid bike I've ridden, the frame is also really nice).
If you don't find an answer, keep your eye out for a cheap fat bike, you can always sell it on if its not up your street.
Mine was originally used as a hardcore winter hardtail with tyres to suit, a role it performed admirably. These days it wears 4" Jumbo Jims and is used for the kind of rides that you describe and occasional bike packing. It handles the duties that a gravel bike did but can also be ridden down technical trails when required. Its limitation is down to the tyres as they are sketchy as f*** in the wet. Its the only bike that remains a constant in my life.
I did used to suffer a bit with my wrists on the FS, I now run carbon One Ups and ESI chunky grips (with a lock on collar to protect the ends) and that has worked for me.
All rigid bikes/frames don't come equal.
I previously had a titanium frame with carbon forks and plus tyres. Not particularly comfortable. Jarring.
Couple of years ago upgraded to a Turner Nitrous titanium (similar bike on paper) and went for enve MTN forks instead of any sort of suspension - and this rigid rides really well. It's totally at home on rough terrain. Modern geo.
But big wide bars probably play a big part as a option you could try.
I only run 2.25 tyres but did have 2.4s. That just sharpened things up for me.
So try a better fork and wider bars on a 35mm short stem with chunky grips a la Odi rogue.
But it won't overcome the frame obviously.
Cheers, unfortunately we already established this would mess up the geo.
I'd suggest trying it, seeing how it felt and if it doesn't work, sell them on, they will keep their value.
There's no need for 20psi in a plus tyre unless you're an absolute unit yourself. 10-15psi in something 2.6ish should work without pinch flats.
I also don't think you'll get any significant comfort gain from any rigid fork. The worst impacts are upright, and the most noodly forks in the world will give less than 1mm in compression compared to 20mm in the tyre any maybe another 20 in the bars
The saddle-stem clamp distance is the same as my FS bike now, and the centre of the saddle is 13cm behind the BB (9cm on FS bike)
That's not much set back at all. Probably why you have the feeling of too much weight on your hands when pedalling seated - if you had a saddle height of around 730 to 750mm, 130mm of setback is roughly equivalent to a 79 degree seat tube angle. That will be pitching you fwd and everything else is trying to compensate for it. Even with the factory fitted post it's a 76 degree angle roughly.
Just looked up the Unit geo, says 75 degrees on the chart so maybe my 79 degree estimate is 78 in reality, but still, that's steep for a rigid bike if you're pedalling in the saddle much of the time. It's workable but most people would need other adjustments to go with it and you say you're at the limit of shorter stems / bar backsweep.
Maybe the bike is too big / long or is just the wrong geometry for the fit you want?
I ran a 3" Chronicle in my 2014 P2 fork. Clearance was tight but never an issue.
Rolls well for a wide tyre, guards would be a challenge.
I'm trying Ergon GP3's (Xmas present) for my rigid 90's MTB to boost comfort (I commute on mixed surfaces on it). Running narrow-ish 2.0 tyres (26"). It will take 2.4's but not with mudguards.
Assuming you haven't already done this, adding an insert to the front tyre may be the cheapest non-marginal thing to try next
Rimpact's are cheap, and should allow you to knock another 2-3 psi off
I used to run a 29 x 3.0" Minion up front with a Rimpact at about 11-12 psi (I'm 77-78 kg)
That’s not much set back at all. Probably why you have the feeling of too much weight on your hands when pedalling seated – if you had a saddle height of around 730 to 750mm, 130mm of setback is roughly equivalent to a 79 degree seat tube angle. That will be pitching you fwd and everything else is trying to compensate for it. Even with the factory fitted post it’s a 76 degree angle roughly.
150mm to the rail centre. Stock it's 75 deg, or about 73 deg when accounting for the layback post. According to bikegeocalc.com mine is now 76.5 deg.
Maybe the bike is too big / long or is just the wrong geometry for the fit you want?
Possibly but it's really ok now with the 50mm riser and push-on grips.
It's the right one according to the size chart (just to eliminate my own opinion for a moment to do a sanity check) - I'm 4cm taller than the min size for M, and 2cm taller than the max height for S, so for this model of bike it should be the right one.
The fit with the layforward post is almost exactly the same as my full sus, but with the handlebar 40mm higher and 30mm narrower. Not that that makes it right as it's a different use, but it feels right and familiar.
The Marin Pine Mountain 2 is about a similar bike. Their sizing puts me on a size M. Stack is 36mm higher and it has a 50mm riser, so if that's what Marin thinks maybe the 80mm riser bar would be worth a try. Top tube is 10mm longer, but no layback post stock, and 15mm shorter stem, so saddle to bar 25mm shorter than the Kona stock or 10mm shorter than mine. Here they are side by side: https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=61be64c154f86b0020f050da,61be6675d4471a0024e3830a,
lower pressure & wider tyres, carbon bars and comfier grips, front suspension. :0)
Maybe the bike is too big / long or is just the wrong geometry for the fit you want?
This is the conclusion I came to after 3 years on my Merlin. It was not a bad bike, it just did not fit me so well, and in reality was an adapted CX frame and quite 'old' road bike thinking geometry. The geometry, as a few testers pointed out, was odd and even more for my body shape/ratio. It took a local bike fit shop to comment how hunched I was on it...
Stepping onto the Vagabond has shown me how much weigh I had on my hands on the Merlin and how a few mm and a degree or two can radically alter comfort, particularly hands and shoulders.
It has made me wonder about saving up for a bike fit....