[Closed] How do you deal with poor riders on a MTB holiday?

They should make them stay in for a day watching Youtoob vids (like GMBN's) on poor technique!

Out of interest - do you have to sign a waiver?

I think I remember there being a waiver with the booking form (but that was months and months ago now!). Don't all companies have one?

I remember being on one holiday where they were able to split the group and four of the less experienced riders were taken on trails more suited to them, this worked fine as there were only 5 of us in the other group.

you allude to there being more than one guide to a large group but I'm not entirely sure. More than a dozen is a very large group and that shouldn't happen.

IMHO and IME having been on numerous guided alpine trips the guides/holiday company should have firstly split the group based on experience and secondly taken the less experienced group on different/easier trails.

Yes, the trail he eventually crashed on wasn't difficult but perhaps his focus or confidence had been ruined by flying down inappropriate trails all week and he was fatigued.

Did the rider take any responsibility himself e.g. saying i'm really struggling here?

I used to guide, not mountain biking, it was Diving where you had to be capable to be safe. We would check them out on the first day and basically put the crap ones in a group. That way you could keep them safe and keep the good ones seperate so as not to spoil their holiday.

On more than one occasion I had a participant who was so bad I told them they could no longer take part without extra training.

A good organisation needs to have the staff and capability to deal with this. Even when you get them to state their ability prior, its not always going to weed out the unskilled, or over ambitious.

How were they actually feeling as riders?  Out of their depth, aware of their lack of skills and wishing they'd booked a different trip, or completely unaware of how much they had to learn?  Sometimes people are just unaware that everyone else isn't having the same trouble - they might have been the bees knees in their clique of riders.

Also it's pretty hard to find a trip that doesn't over egg the description of how super enduro gnarly the trails are.  It's possible that they just took any pre-tour information with a pinch of salt after having done previous trips that claimed they were super tricky.

If the company has a waiver and can show that the guides were diligent and exercised appropriate care in briefing people about trail features and assisting riders when necessary I think they're fine.  They probably see as many injuries from competent riders who push a bit too far as they do from incompetent riders.

How do you deal with poor riders on a MTB holiday?

Write a letter to The Times.

When I guided (many years ago, it has to be said) we split the groups very carefully after the first full day. That first day we spent watching everyone and finding out what they were into and capable of (fitness and technicality). It worked very well, on the whole. Guides need to gently discourage riders from riding trails or features that might be way beyond them, while not stifling riders' needs/desires to progress. It's a risky sport, people will rightly want to push their own limits, and people will occasionally get hurt. The holiday company's marketing materials should subtly put off inappropriate riders. Also, the problem you've described is probably getting worse. Black runs at UK trail centres aren't like black runs and natural tech in the Alps or Canada, and that's a painful learning curve for some folk. More people having big, burly 'alpine' enduro bikes might make this worse again - you still need to be able to ride the thing. Again, decent holiday company will be on the lookout for issues like these.

Budget or expensive holiday? If you've paid a lot them I'd say they are cutting corners and haven't got enough guides. I know they are within the recommended overall ratio, but with an unvetted group in a demanding place it is hard to make it work (as you found). As well as being punters, me and Mrs have both done the basic guide training so kind of see it from both sides.

Now our kids are older and racing, we make a fast family xc group of 4. Last few years with Bike Verbier and Czech mtb we've been offered our own guide with option for others to join us if it makes a good group. So Czech ended up mostly 5:1 and 1:1 groups with meet ups at various points and lunch, plus swaps between the guides during the day so kids had fresh adults to thrash 🙂 everyone happy!

As a pretty poor rider I'd be very concerned about a company that let me carry on riding trails that were (in their opinion) well beyond my ability. As you say, that's just an accident waiting to happen. I don't know the details of this trip, but if I'm paying for a guide one of the basic things I expect is that they will accurately judge my ability and not take me down stuff I'm clearly not capable of riding safely.

Of course, I have a duty to read the blurb and not sign up for a trip that is well beyond my ability too, but that's not really the point of the OP I don't think.

Sounds like very poor form from the guiding company. They should have enough guides to split into appropriate groups and then ride trails suited to the weakest rider. I've only done a few guided holidays and the guides always assess on the first ride, or at least at the the start of the ride then adjust. Just going for it is completely wrong. I'd also say 12 is too many is for a guided group to start with (unless you are already buddies) and this sort thing would be almost inevitable with either the weakest riders overstretched or the best riders disappointed

Sorry I wasn't clear, the trail he crashed on was actually very difficult (like pretty much everything we rode). He just happened to crash on a very brief section that wasn't technical.

I think the group size was 13, probably on the large size but I've been in groups of that size before. I don't think easier trails were an option really, in fact the guides did say there was actually some harder stuff that we didn't get the chance to do!

I didn't really get a chance to talk to the guy with him getting put in the back of an ambulance and then being in hospital unfortunately, but prior to the crash he was of course very aware he was out of his depth.

Trimix how hard was that to do? If I'd paid for a holiday and then when I got there I was told I wasn't good enough to participate I'd be fuming!

Of course, I have a duty to read the blurb and not sign up for a trip that is well beyond my ability too, but that’s not really the point of the OP I don’t think.

I agree with you, I think things need to be advertised correctly and then people have responsibility to ensure that they don't book themselves on the wrong thing, but you also got my point that this is more a "what if that's all already gone wrong" type of situation.

As a pretty poor rider I’d be very concerned about a company that let me carry on riding trails

So how would you feel if the company told you you weren't allowed to ride anymore?

So how would you feel if the company told you you weren’t allowed to ride anymore?

I'd think: 'Better that than finishing my holiday in a hospital'

I've been split into to the poor riding group when I was at bike village for a week.

Best for all concerned. The Guides gave me some proper coaching, but I just couldn't get my head round alpine switchbacks with exposure.

Loads of their best trails are infested with these. The rest of the group had been out on holiday with the company before and were completely confident with this.

So, I'd say a quality company would coach the riders and take them on appropriate trails.

This is a recommendation for Bike village, just in case that's not clear!

WL hits the nail on the head.

He was actually guiding on a holiday i was on and he has described what has happened on every riding holiday I've been on with a good company.
Good companys are capable of guiding me and Mrs stu on the same trip and meeting up maybe a couple of different point through the day even though we are very different in riding ability.
Its also nice to be able to switch groups so that if you're tired/not tired or not feeling/feeling it you can mix things up.

Loads of their best trails are infested with these

Brilliant. roll on next week.😁

I did a guided holiday earlier this year - more cross country rather than anything too gnarly - but chatting to the guides they've stopped asking people to give any sort of indication of how good/experienced a rider they are when booking, as they were pretty much always turn out to be the opposite of what they said.
We also had 3 guides for a group of 12 at all times - one leading, one sat somewhere in the middle and one at the back ensuring the slower riders didn't get lost. They sussed out we were all capable of the planned routes for the week so it was just about making sure that slower riders didn't feel left behind. We were also warned ahead of anything a bit more techy and knew what to expect and where ever you were in the group always had a guide somewhere nearby keeping an eye on you.

As someone who isn't that interested in the guided thing, this is a pure observation after spending a couple of weeks in Verbier. The blue trails are absolutely nothing like any blue i have experienced in the UK. Non standard grading can thus give a very poor guide to ability. The other thing after riding the blue DH trails a few times, i am still crap, and an XC bike probably didn't help, but got better. Familiarity with your home trails can easily make you believe that you are better than you are.

It would be easy for a rider to think they are better than they are, and from experience a lot do.

Depends on how accurately the riding was described, and whether he was clearly asked about his ability on sign-up, prior to accepting him as a client. Of course it's possible that someone could be less than forthright about their ability when asked, but the company has to take reasonable steps to make sure they are offering the right product.

If I was a guide, I certainly would want to find out before the first corner and hopefully avoid having to spend the entire week nursing someone down, or worse.

Trimix how hard was that to do? If I’d paid for a holiday and then when I got there I was told I wasn’t good enough to participate I’d be fuming!

I'll answer for him - it's easy. For any day diving you'll have x number of staff for y number of punters y/x = 4-6 ish. Punters will have a card with them that says how good they are, you split your guides accordingly. All your guides know the local routes so you can split according to difficulty.

The grading in MTB (of trails and riders) is so hit and miss you'll always get somebody out of their depth. I would suggest any outfit running tours should be prepared for this.

You know that scene in full metal jacket where they hold the guy who fails the assault course down with the blanket and beat him? That's how you deal with it.

I'd expect the company to do what wl suggests, unless it's a point to point type ride where the difficulty is spelled out with a small group. I've been with two different companies over 3 holidays and this is what happened.

Aye, what Sam and Stu said, a good company will work it out, if possible - though there has to be occasions when there is just too much of a spread/not enough guides.

We had a couple at Riviera who if you listened to them were the best riders ever, in reality they were bloody awful, despite having ridden pretty much every worldwide destination. Thankfully Ady and Jo smuggled them off with another group, I'd have really struggled to listen to them if they'd been in our group.

Just one of the many tough sides of being guide I'd imagine.

GoldenJames

Before arriving in resort how had the company attempted to help people work out of the holiday was for them. So what did the brochure say? Do you speak to anyone in person.

I've never done this sort of holiday so I've no idea how it works

Well on the basis of the last away trip I did with the missus:-

We booked with the company after much conversation to ascertain that they could guide us separately, as we're both well aware that we ride at radically different levels and enjoy different things. We were told this wouldn't be a problem, indeed was a speciality.

When we got there, they turned out to be understaffed. The head honcho spent most of the week brown-nosing journos, the guide rode what suited him (and to be fair most of the group). My poor missus just kept getting told - "sorry - you're not good enough for this trail, stay in the van". Needless to say she was in bits by the end of it - massive confidence crisis, and even when she was able to ride, there was no effort made to wait at junctions etc, so I ended up off the back too to try and keep some contact with her.

We came to an amicable arrangment in the end, so I won't name names.

Perhaps there's a need for not just the trails to be graded, but also the rider?

I know it's the standard STW suggestion to "Go get some coaching" but if UK based coaches (appropriately accredited of course) could assess a rider for "Alpine Skillz" and stamp their "Gnarr Card" to certify a level of ability, no more than 6 months prior to a visit to the alps then guides could have some gauge of their capability prior to starting the week, I mean what ~£100 for a bit of coaching compared to spannering yourself and writing off an expensive trip.

The company and the guides have a duty of care and no waiver alters that. If its the first day and they guy crashes fair enough but to keep on taking him down trails too difficult for him and he crashes they will be liable. NO question.

Its very poor show - they should have ensured they had enough guides to split the group if needed and they should have looked after the newbs. If they didn't have enough guides then he should have had his costs refunded and they should have refused to take him

Jon Edwards - thats outrageous - I hope you both got all your money back

Sounds like a very poor company. If you could see this person was out of their depth then the guide must have spotted that too, and decided to ignore it. Let’s hope the injuries are not too serious.

We came to an amicable arrangment in the end, so I won’t name names.

This is the shit thing about compensation and nda's- other poor sods generally get to replicate your experience.

Its really tough. Rate yourself out of 10. What compared to my mates or Ratboy?
Some seem to think that swinley is the be all and end all of mtb in the uk & are massively out of their depth when abroad.
The trips ive been on are 2 buses, so upto 16 people & maybe 2 or 3 guides with 1 at the back sweeping.
It really doesnt work, you have superfast people who just race off with the guide at the front and some real wobblers at the back.
Any trip I book from now on I think would have to be group size of 8 or less. The company should have the capacity to split their clients into groups to suit with enough guides for both groups.

Further to that - I've also been on the other side of the fence as a guide. One company I did some cover work for ended up putting me off the idea for life. I got given a group of absolute gungho nutters. Amazing bikes, all the armour in the world and absolutely zero real world skills. They'd go pedalling flat out into anything, then crash as soon as there was a corner, which in that part of the world ended up usually being off the edge of a hairpin. I aged immensely that week. But none of tem would be told 0 - they'd come to scare themselves, crash and rip the piss out of each other unmercifully. In the end it was a case of letting them session steep, loose chutes so they could video themselves wiping out time after time. They went away happy, battered and fortunately with no lasting injuries.

The last couple of trips I've been on have been organised by a guy doing bespoke weeks and only inviting people he's ridden with over the years. He sorts the weeks by ability, so you're with like minded riders and the groupsize is 2 guide/drivers + passengers all in a Transporter. The downside is - that level of service is ferociously expensive. I don't begrudge the cost at all, but not something I can do often. If you're paying £500 for a full week inc food, accom, guiding, transfers, it'll be shoestring budgets and that will show at some point in the holiday.

Riding in a group of 12 or 13 sounds bloody awful, regardless of whether the riders were up to the job or not.

I've only been on one guided Alps trip, with The White Room. Biggest group was maybe 6-7 with two guides.

JE that’s awful.  I hope it was a very amicable arrangement.

If I’d paid for a holiday and then when I got there I was told I wasn’t good enough to participate I’d be fuming!

I've been on a holiday when this happened, they spoke with him after the shake down afternoon ride and told him in no uncertain terms he was out of his depth (which he was) and would be a danger to himself and others. They gave him a portion of his money back, and he spent a week tooling about doing white water rafting, walking and riding a spare road bike. He seemed happy enough TBH.

Agree with the others JE, that does sound crap.

“If I’d paid for a holiday and then when I got there I was told I wasn’t good enough to participate I’d be fuming!”

I don’t know about MTB holidays, I’ve only done trips to Wales and taking my bike on family holidays, but on horse riding holidays they’ll refuse to let you ride their horses if you don’t meet the standard or are over the weight limit. MTB guides should take a similar stand but I guess they don’t have the leverage of you riding their horses or their company insurance.

I’m not a bad rider but I’m far from great - I’m fine with any UK trail centre blacks but the harder blacks at BPW are beyond me. And plenty of natural trails have too difficult a combination of steep/loose/drops for me to be comfortable.

I’m out in Mallorca on a family holiday right now and am hunting down trails, which are mostly unofficial or footpaths and the geology and dry weather creates some seriously tough stuff. Although the drops aren’t as big I don’t think I’ve seen anything as technical at BPW, BMCC or Antur. It’s fine because I’m pushing up, looking at the features, working out how/if I can ride them and then coming back down and trying to flow but be safe. I wouldn’t want to be trying to ride some of this stuff in a group under any time pressure!

Self judgement is hard. Especially with grading varying so much. I've done a black a ridgid bike and not found it too bad then done anothe black on a long(ish) travel fullsus and taken chicken lines. Makes me nervous in the UK as I never know if a trail will be too much or no worries.

This man would know what to do with them.

<br />citibank atm near me now<br />

Interesting stuff on this thread here. Three memories totally stick out from my only guided MTB experience (with Finale Freeride)

As we were signing up, a German guide came storming into the office and had a huge rant at the admins about the fact that he and his team weren't being given any work for ages and were always overlooked in favour of local guides and if this didn't change then they'd all leave.

As we left it became clear that FF had amalgamated two of the days groups into one big group with a huge range of abilities and one solitary guide. From the gist of what the German was saying this was what they had been doing most of the season.

We then spent much of the day with two slowish German women trying to work out where the **** the group had rushed off to and where the hell we were supposed to go. Stressful and not much fun.

Can't recall numbers, but we were on two LWB Land rovers, so at least ten.

Ho hum.

Normally when guiding for diving we would split the group into two. We didnt say which was the more capable group. So no ones feelings were hurt.

However, there were occasions where we had to remove someone, or tell them they needed further training. I would do this privately and basically say that in my professional opinion they were a danger to themselves and others as well as me the guided. Almost all of the time this was accepted. Getting diving wrong is a bit worse than getting your bike ride wrong. Once or twice I told someone they were too dangerous and I would not risk my life in any attempt to save them. Or I would not lower the standard just for one when the rest were up to it. Keep it logical, professional and state the facts, then normally its accepted. You have to do it with empathy of course.

We did have one chap who was not happy, he went off in search of another company who would take him. What he didnt know was we had informed the other operators how dangerous he was.

Basically the duty of care you owe to the group outweighs that to the one "poor" rider / diver, whatever. So the majority and safety win out.

Self judgement is hard. Especially with grading varying so much. I’ve done a black a ridgid bike and not found it too bad then done anothe black on a long(ish) travel fullsus and taken chicken lines. Makes me nervous in the UK as I never know if a trail will be too much or no worries.

I'm not sure trail grades are that helpful. It's a lot more useful having a good idea of the limits of your ability and the common sense to back off when you're somewhere on the ragged edge of it. I've seen a couple of nasty crashes where folk have just thrown themselves at stuff on holidays without really thinking about whether they were likely to be able to ride them, maybe partly because they didn't want to lose face by backing off.

Personally I'm probably a little over cautious on trails I don't know, but I'd rather that than go home a plaster cast or worse.

Generally, as a lot of people have said already, I'd expect a good guiding company to assess folk and group them according to ability or, occasionally, if there's no other option, to provide alternative, easier options where there are harder sections on rides. Above all they should be doing everything they can to make sure that everyone on the holiday enjoys it, which I suspect is a lot easier to say than do, particularly if you don't have multiple guides to call on.

things up.

Loads of their best trails are infested with these

Brilliant. roll on next week.😁

The food was ammmmmazing as well!

From more of a customer point of view, I can see one problem being with groups of friends who decide to sign up to a particular ride and they ride the same trails back home okay, so they sign up to the same level holiday. Then while someone may have concerns others might convince them saying they'll be fine. Get there and it can be a fine line where some may be out of their depth.

It's why I'm cautious about booking with a group as I know I'd be out of my depth on some things other friends would have no problem with, but I've had the "you'll be fine". I'm okay if we all have a really good understanding of our abilities and the trip offers options. I'd prefer a trip where the whole group can do some things together and then split on more technical bits, rather than split right at the beginning and not end up doing anything together other than booze and food in the evening. If the gap is too wide though then understandable but would hope that's filtered out before even booking.

All said though, a trip where you feel a bit out of your comfort zone at times can push you a lot in experience. Just doing what you're happy with all the time doesn't encourage improvement.

Another spin on the group being too big is also the group being too small! One of the only guided rides I've done, in Spain, it was just me, one other guy and the guide, which in numbers terms was a good ratio. However Other guy was really really slow. Made for a boring day where we did maybe 1/4 of the riding / technicality than I would have liked.

Bigger group with more guides, would have allowed a split

I'm off the alps again in 2 weeks.

Some of the stuff I did last time was beyond me so I walked the sections i wasnt happy on.

I wasn't the worst in the group either.

Alps riding is properly different to UK riding

No injurys no problem

People need to do their own risk assessment.

Doesn't answer your question, but as people have said, I think part of the solution is more consistent grading of routes.
My first time even just to BPW was a BIT of a shock for how different their red was to swinley.
Even cannock has black features that are way beyond some other trail centres but display the same colour. Parts there I struggle with despite having done the mega last year.
As for on the holiday, I think it needs a diplomatic but honest talk if there are no alternative routes they can be pointed towards. They maybe should include a warning that if you're deemed not to be at the standard you'll be kept off the trails for your own safety.

Mrs and I have just done a couple of days in Verbier. I agree with the above that the grading is wildly different to UK riding. A blue trail marked as ‘easy’ is steep, rocky, technical, loose. Similar to a UK black, but even that wouldn’t have the length of length of decent. This is where people are caught out I think.

The disparity in grading across Europe, and further afield I imagine is more pronounced than skiing, as I think there is an actual grading system and standards which resorts work to, keeping some commonality.

Anyway, Verbier is incredible!

In our group (just over a dozen) there were two or three riders who had very poor bike handling. Think riding things with one foot off the pedals, descending sitting down, etc. Not just low skilled but lacking the basic fundamentals of MTBing.

That falls both on the company and the riders. If they were that far out of their depth then its a safety issue nad the guides should have refused to take them and given them their money back. The company should have done some screening of the guests but if they’d massively over estimated their abilities its on them. There are questions you can ask potential guests - where have you ridden before being a key one.

I can understand guiding for natural trails, but I always thought in the Alps you could just rock up and explore the way marked trails, or is the advantage of guides is they will talk about what to expect- line choices and so on.

A blue trail marked as ‘easy’ is steep, rocky, technical, loose. Similar to a UK black, but even that wouldn’t have the length of length of decent. This is where people are caught out I think.

Yes, the grading is one thing but most people in the UK are not used to climbs that go on for more than about 15 mins or decents that go on for more than about 5 mins. Same on road biking - you go to the Alps and you can be climbing for an hour which is unheard of in the UK. So people end up tired, making mistakes etc.

It's been a long time since I've done any MTB holidays but I remember the guides taking the whole group out for what they'd term a sort of shakedown ride - make sure the bike is fine after the flight (or the hire bike fits you), get used to the heat and so on so it'd be nicely laid back which cut down on the pressure for the novice riders and also reined in the super keen guys who wanted to smash everything. Once they had the feel for everyone, they'd split the groups up, usually something like a ride out to lunch together and then split the groups up into fast / slow or tech / non-tech for the ride back.

Riding in a group of 12 or 13 sounds bloody awful, regardless of whether the riders were up to the job or not.

+1

Nothing to add as I’ve only ridden with one company so can’t really add anything as they only appear to do group sizes of 6-7 (both mates trips and strangers). Gonna be sure I never book on with these mega groups.

Doesn’t answer your question, but as people have said, I think part of the solution is more consistent grading of routes.
My first time even just to BPW was a BIT of a shock for how different their red was to swinley.

I've been abroad a few times on MTB hols, and never even considered the grading of trails, I enjoy going different places and feel relatively comfortable riding new stuff, tbh it's probably the reason I went, was new stuff to ride.

I'd say it's an issue that folk REALLY NEED a trail graded. If your comfortable riding the vast majority of the Lakes, you'll be fine, if Swinley is your limit, then the Alps is maybe best avoided.

I can understand guiding for natural trails, but I always thought in the Alps you could just rock up and explore the way marked trails, or is the advantage of guides is they will talk about what to expect- line choices and so on.

Local knowledge.

It depends on the country/region, but the way-marked MTB trails are generally just selected hiking trails and fire roads arranged into a nice route. They may be graded, but this is often as much about length/climbing on route as it is about technicality. You could waste a lot of time exploring loops that weren't what you're after. There's also a huge network of trails beyond those marked up as MTB routes. Navigation can be tricky, as way-marking can be a bit hit and miss. There are also bike parks - purpose-built, lift-assisted MTB trails, and yes, you wouldn't need a guide for those.

I've only done one guided MTB holiday, but in terms of getting value from the time there it was awesome. Ability assessed on the first day, and then a week of trails that actually suit you - not beyond you, but not boring.

I've been to the Alps a few times since on "family" holidays, and have sorted out my own routes. There have been some great ones, but also a few duff ones, and I actually quite enjoying poring over maps and the Strava heatmap putting the routes together.

If it's clearly advertised as a trip for advance riders, then it's tough luck for the incompetent guests. The hosts should do their best to accommodate them, but your trip shouldn't be impacted by them. I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to suggest this.

I wanted to do a snowboarding trip for 'advance' riders but I wasn't sure if I was of the required level. I made contact with the organiser and they told me to not to book as I'd have been out of my depth. If I'd gone ahead and booked and found out I'm not what they class as 'advanced', I'd have to just suck it up and make the most of the bits within my ability but accept that I'd be missing out on other parts.

I have some sympathy with tour companies trying to deal with mixed-ability groups..... but that is the nature of their business after all - they should either find a way to deal with it, or get comfortable with turning people (and their money) away, or issuing refunds to angry/hurt customers.

However, I also think there's some personal responsibility to be taken here. Assuming that the people in the group knew each other and had cycled together before - it cannot have escaped the notice of those at the "lower end" of the skill scale that they were such. Before booking a cycling holiday with that group, THEY should have checked that there was some option for them to participate without either being massively out of their depth, or restricting the rest of the group.

Most people who've been skiing in a group have experienced this I think - guided holiday or not.

I’d say it’s an issue that folk REALLY NEED a trail graded. If your comfortable riding the vast majority of the Lakes, you’ll be fine, if Swinley is your limit, then the Alps is maybe best avoided

How so ? You go to the alps and ride the blue/green and it's all good... you ride some red and they can be OK, but without some assistance in the colours, you could set off through a gate and find out it's got a 10m gap jump in the middle of it ? That's why the colours are there surely ? Of course there's interpretation within it, but how would you know before setting off down a particular small strip of dirt what's going on half way down there?

I used to guide transalp and invariably had groups of differing abilities.
Part of the group confident on alpine trails and wanting more tech, and others who were perhaps out of their depth/comfort zone on anything steep, exposed, loose or narrow.

On the first day, a few km in, I used to detour to a short section of trail that, although short, had all of the above, albeit in small dosis. I'd quickly know who to keep an eye on and who I could trust, as it were.

Evenings I would offer some coaching tips for the next day, whether that be switchbacks, how to get off your bike on steep terrain or, believe it or not, how to set off uphill from a standing start (many flat landers couldn't get their bike in motion without having the bike rolling first).

Sometimes you get lucky and the group is quite homogenous. A few older bikers along with a few less experienced riders with everyone happy to take the easier descents or even fireroads. Or everyone fairly experienced and happy to take the trickier, techier trails.

Had to arrange for a few people to transfer to the easier L1 tour that ran more or less parallel to mine. Not something we wanted to do as it involved our driver having to make big detours with the client to transfer them. However, some people are a liability to themselves and the rest of the group.

One particular lady I had to transfer. She had previously completed the L1 tour and found it didn't have enough climbing. Fair enough. She was like a rocket going up. But watching her descending was nerve wracking. All over the place, really sketchy lines. Even some of the other clients mentioned it to me.

On the third day, climbing on the road she was zigzagging left and right and had a couple of bear misses with cars. Spoke to her about it at the pass and it turns out she was completely blind in her left eye and that's why she couldn't see the cars or pick a line down the trail. She admitted the trails were tougher than expected, she just wanted more climbing. We agreed that fireroads and bike paths would be better. It also meant the rest of the tour was a bit more grrr and everyone was happy.

Another was two lads, mid 20's, total bike nerds. All the gear: deuter alpine rucksacks, liteville 301, those weird crank bros wheels... Talking about nothing other than bikes, exotic locations they had ridden, the highest hike-a-bike peaks. On the second day it was clear that they were out of their depth on anything remotely approaching alone terrain.
I kinda felt sorry for them. Almost deluded. Only ever rode with each other, read all the magazines and had drunk the kool aid. If they were with their bikes where they sat they were then I can imagine it was exactly that;with their bikes in that location.... pushing them up and then back down.

it turns out she was completely blind in her left eye and that’s why she couldn’t see the cars

bloody hell! How could she not think she needed to mention that!

Have also taken tours in Finale for a friend's shop.

Had a few tours where people have simply said no, it's not for them and they either sit out the odd trail or roll back down into Finale.

Another where two girls were struggling so I stayed at the back with them and given a few lads had been there before and knew the trails and pick up points for the shuttle let them get in another trail whilst I coached others down.

It's difficult when you've got a group where everyone can ride but the pace is way off so you end up missing out on other or trickier trails as the group gets split up so much.

There it is hard to swap to an easier group as the vans are often full. After the first day the guides may discuss who is quick or not and mix the groups accordingly.

Had one guy where I felt like a rabbit being chased by a greyhound... the crazy guy who just wanted to go faster and left no gap. Got a free ride with shuttle being guided by a very speedy friend*. I let him know about the greyhound. I also told the greyhound to simply follow behind and not try riding matey's lines as this guy pops off of everything and disappears down the trail.

On the second shuttle of the day the greyhound spanners himself against a tree. In German they would say he "überschätzt" himself.

*sitting at the din, eating smoking all day long and this guy says let's ride rollercoaster. he'll take it easy for me to follow him. Him gliding along, popping off each root, rock or undulation. Me, wide eyes, gasping, seeing new lines and feeling right in the edge of glory or hospital. Ended up with several PBs in that descent.

Coming from skiing I think this is where there is some mileage in some coordinated assessment schemes at a national level (at least). They give a reasonably reliable yardstick, but adoption is generally difficult to gain.

Adding a timed assessment would also be an objective measure - but I don't think there's a federal structure sufficient, or enough public appetite, in the UK to ever get something off the ground.

An alternative might be to organise pre-trip "demo" days. If you're interested in one of our trips, come to Trail Centre XYZ for a demo with one of our guides and you get to know them and they get to give their advice on what would be best for you as a rider.

A useful tool for me was the single trail Skala

www.singletrail-skala.de

Useful to show guests so that when I say this trail is S3, some S4 they know what is coming.

A useful tool for me was the single trail Skala

http://www.singletrail-skala.de

Useful to show guests so that when I say this trail is S3, some S4 they know what is coming.

Anything over S3 sounds more like trials than MTBing from those descriptions.

All this sounds trifficly complicated. I've only done a day's guided riding, and due to a quirk of booking and illness, it was just me and the two guides. Recommended.

My first time even just to BPW was a BIT of a shock for how different their red was to swinley.

The UK grading system is all over the place. Bedgebury near me is a 'red' and it has 2 small 'rock gardens' and a couple of 6" drops. The Black section has 3 1ft drops.

It's laughable that it has the same grade as any of the red trails at BPW.

I'm interested in this thread as I'm looking to book a Spanish guided trip later this year, I'm comfortable on fast rocky descents, big rock gardens etc, but show me a blind 3ft drop and I'll be the first to pull up short.

Anything over S3 sounds more like trials than MTBing from those descriptions.

I'm sure I've seen similar based more on the climbing system which incorporates other factors too? E.g. someone who ride in the lakes might be comfortable with the rocky aspects of s4 on that scale, but might otherwise be a "wheels on the ground" type rider completely out of their depth following someone down a blue trail centre run with jumps and berms at speed, or even just cornering in general. Or an S2 trail might be a 2km green loop at swinley or a 100km landrover track across a Scottish hillside with no resupply options.

This is an interesting thread and probably saves me starting a similiar one from a different perspective. Im seriously considering booking a ferry crossing and heading out next summer with my son. Looking at the usual Morzine but really like the look of livigno. Anyhoo to give you an idea I'd say Im an intermediate rider , I can get down the normal Golfie stuff (3g , new york , new york , repeat)at a reasonable time but wouldnt attempt the harder stuff as I know I dont have the skills / balls to do so. My son on the other hand has placed weel in 6 races this year in both mini downhill and enduro so I have no qualms about him riding anything as long as he has sessioned it.
Where as my ideal holiday might be a long Sierra Nevada natural descent hed probably want to go to finale which I'd be wasted on.
The last thing Id want is to go and hold each other back or not ride together. If any could offer advice on destinations or general advice without me hijacking the OP it would be appreciated.
I have no experiance of being guided but do normally ride with people who are more experienced and generally better riders and they wont let anyone ride anything way out of their comfort zone and if Im trying a trail which is on the limits of my comfort zone they will stop before a feature to point out and give advice If I want to try it.

I've heard moans from friends who've been on physically & technically demanding, very expensive point-to-point MTB trips. They've been unhappy that big sections were cut out due to other guests with woefully inadequate skills or fitness.

Ideally those guests would have been screened by the organiser, but perhaps it's difficult to turn down £1k-odd when your books are not full anyway?

The only thing bugging me a bit about this thread is that there simply must have been some option of easier trails in the area, and if 3 or 4 riders were out of their depth it would just make sense to take them down those.

I have to admit after chatting to some friends with coaching/guiding experience, I do not envy them over this sort of thing. I'm quite glad that the club I can just suggest a ride, describe it, and let people walk down everything if they like.

Having recently totaled myself on an alpine Blue recently... I agree the Alps are harder!

I have had this issue with guided groups before, but with guided offpiste and backcountry snowboarding/splitboarding.

There are ALWAYS people who sign up to guided trips who are not of the required skill level. However he skill level of the groups can vary enormously week to week. I must have done the same trip about 5 times over a few years, and the level of the other riders varied a lot.

Recently the canadian lodge trips I go on have a large base group of 12-16 people but then you have 3 or 4 guides - so you can split off into smaller groups to tackle days of different intensity and technicality. usually have two full mountain guides and then 1 or 2 tail guide. Makes for a much better holiday than e.g. a base group of 6-8 with only 1 guide and no option to split up.

I’ve heard moans from friends who’ve been on physically & technically demanding, very expensive point-to-point MTB trips. They’ve been unhappy that big sections were cut out due to other guests with woefully inadequate skills or fitness.

That is so annoying!

I woudl expect on point to point trips - you ride or you go in the van, I would not be at all happy about my route being cut short.

For me, that's way too big a group. We take a maximum of 14 riders and have 4 guides available if needed. I don't personally enjoy guiding a group of more than 4 or 5, it starts to get too stop-start and stressful. If we have people who want to ride as a bigger group, we'll try to have 2 guides with them so we can have a guide front and back. Makes things much smoother. It's not unusual for us to end up with one person guiding just one or 2 clients because their level just doesn't fit with the rest of the group.

We've never had to tell someone that their level is just too low for the trip, although we've been close to it a couple of times. Fortunately, those times have usually worked themselves out either by the person in question realising they were out of their depth and choosing not to ride or by us providing effectively private guiding for them! There have been quite a few cases over the years where people have enquired about booking a trip and, after a discussion about their experience, we've advised that it probably wouldn't suit them.

Our van-based (rather than chairlift based) weeks do have slightly larger groups, but even then we would always split into at least 2 groups and we would try to steer anyone unsure of their ability away from those weeks and encourage them to book a chairlift week with maximum flexibility.

We do use self-assessments to group people initially, with the groups staying close together on the first day if we think we might need to swap people around. We used to have issues with 99% of people rating themselves either 3 or 4 (on a 1-5 scale), which doesn't tell you much, but we re-jigged our scale a few years back to be more descriptive at each level, trying to refer things back to UK trails and that's been a lot better. We now have a fair (and usually accurate) spread from 3-5, with the advice that anything less than 3 is probably unsuitable for riding in the Alps. Our scale is here if anyone's interested (I'd actually be quite interested in any feedback on it!): https://www.whiteroommtb.com/riding (scroll down, sorry, can't create an anchor link!).

It's not always a perfect world though. Sometimes you can have 12 riders who could quite happily ride with one guide. Sometimes you can have 4 riders and feel like you need 4 guides!

That's the kind of assessment I meant (of the rider), rather than trail grading. Re-reading my post it wasn't clear. It's used a lot in skiing but mainly as a prerequisite for instructor training and things. I still think the general public would get a lot and tying it into to trail maps would be very useful. E.g. this trail has tight exposed switchbacks therefore it's recommended only for Silver or Gold Bikewheel (my evaluation scheme's name in this theoretical example) because that level includes an evaluation of that. Wholly unrealistic that all people attending would have such an assessment but I do believe it's in a sport's governing body's roles to promote such stuff.

It's basically the measure of a guide company, this. I've been on one that made promises in advance that they couldn't keep- not for want of trying, but still- and it was rubbish for the fast riders and rubbish for the not fast riders. I've been with the same not-fast rider to Bikevillage and White Room and it was dealt with properly.

Equally I have to admit that I'm a pretty decent rider, I'm not going to be the last man down, but there's been times I've not been fit enough- I died on Mont Jovet frinstance and had to take the weakling option and miss the summit. And that's been handled too, because that time, we were with a good outfit.

Anything less isn't good enough tbf, that's what the job is.

. If any could offer advice on destinations or general advice without me hijacking the OP it would be appreciated.

Hang on.

Here you go..... My random wafflings about Finale with kids.. https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/sorry-need-to-preview-a-post-ignore-me/

Our scale is here if anyone’s interested (I’d actually be quite interested in any feedback on it!)

Very good, easy to place myself on that and it captures a useful range of abilities on both the skill and fitness sides.

So do most people put themselves as 4 / 4?

“Our scale is here if anyone’s interested (I’d actually be quite interested in any feedback on it!): https://www.whiteroommtb.com/riding (scroll down, sorry, can’t create an anchor link!).”

This doesn’t show on your mobile site. Found it after requesting the desktop version.

That German S1 etc scale makes me feel like a useless rider!

“So do most people put themselves as 4 / 4?”

I’d say I’m a 4- on both fronts.

@thegenerlist that is a very good write up on Finale , sounds excellent.

I usually put myself in the middle and have usually done OK
I remember the first time I went to the Alps, seems a long time ago now, it was on a girlie week with Bike Verbier. I had a long chat with them over the phone just to ensure I would be up for it. Even then I spent every weekend for 6 weeks before in Wharncliffe on the DHs and the rocky bits

Aged a bit since then but still ride an Enduro

[img] [/img]

Most good companies, and every one we have used, manage to cater for all abilities and go out of their way to make everyone's holiday a good one.

If each individual was honest with them selves on their ability then the ratings will work.
The problem guides have is when someone rates 4-5 and turnout to be 1-2.