Help turn me into a long distance roadie in a month!

Pretty much. Your body will adapt and "learn" what it's like to keep going for so long.

You also need to concentrate on reducing stopped time. This can be harder if there is a group of you but, in the other hand, sharing draughting will help keep your average speed up so learn how to do that too.

Also, chafing. Buy some bum butter, chamois cream, whatever you want to call it, and get used to using it.

If it were me, I'd be badly spraining my ankle or having a positive Covid test the day before.

You’re going to suffer.

VO2 Max intervals can boost your FTP relatively quickly and will make at least modest hills feel less stressful on the day, gearing that feels near your threshold now will feel closer to z2/3 endurance/tempo with enough training/racing...

Balanced out by multi hour z1/2 rides.

Practice pacing yourself on long rides to stay in zone 2 (easy to have a conversation/not breathless) and avoid going in to the red on hills.

Also figure out what you can keep eating and drinking for they length of time without feeling yucky,and keep eating and drinking small amounts regularly.

18 hours seems optimistic for 400km doesn't it? That's 22.2kph without any stopping at all. Not saying you couldn't ride that average speed, but you're unlikely not to have some breaks?

Ride at least one long road ride per week (4 hours approx), do it at as much as you can in zone 2.

In the week, try to ride at least 2 sweet-spot sessions (only need to be 2 x 20 minutes) best on rollers or turbo trainer.

Do not try to change too much at this late stage, else you'll pick up an injury.

Check your riding position and fit on the bike.

Wear your comfiest padded Lycra on the day.

Ensure you're well rested, eat plenty of wholesome foods. Cut out the junk food and booze.

You'll be fine. Just take it easy and try to minimise your stops. Make sure you eat and drink plenty on the ride, including carb and electrolyte drinks. Again, don't introduce anything new on the big day. Make sure what ever you eat or drink is fine with your stomach well in advance of the day.

Back the pace off a wee bit and eat (a lot) more
For example, I find 100 miles at 15mph really easy, at 17mph it's an effort, at 19mph I'm ****ed at the end. That 2mph makes quite a difference. Backing off the pace should allow you to go further.
Mars bar every 20 miles plus as many cafe stops as possible will help no end.
Also, if you aren't a roadie, are you used to drafting/bunch riding? Go and do a couple of local club runs, they'll soon show you what's what. That will make things a lot easier.

Group ride is always easier/faster than solo.
Definitely practice drafting.
Keep your energy up.
Make sure your arse is up to sitting on your preferred saddle for that long.
Stop and eat, but don’t **** about, it’s really easy to waste an unbelievable amount of time.
That’s a long ride to do in a day, good luck.
Do your training rides at a cruising, rather than fast pace.

Wear your comfiest padded Lycra on the day.

Do not wear brand new shorts that have not been washed. You will not finish!

Ride every other day between now and then with one long ride a week which should edge up to around 120km towards the end of the period. Use HRM monitor and cadence sensor to:
Get cadence to average high 80's/low 90's rpm
Practice keeping heart rate in zone 2 to 3, you may end up walking to start with.

Borrow a road bike from someone with compact chainset and as wide a block spread possible.

Another plus 1 for the right pace and backing off your normal pace. i did my first 100mls after riding no further than 30 mls in a single ride, just backed off my normal pace. As said above 1-2 mph can make a colossal difference.

Also keep hydrated. Let your salts fall and cramp will be a killer. I always use a weak energy / hydration poweder. Never up to the recommended concentrations but enough to taste it. Drinking that stuff for long periods at full strength is…well i couldnt do it! Weaker usually keeps me hydrated enough to avoid cramp then i eat enough food for energy.

New bike time.

Use witch hazel to toughen up.

Do a lot of stretches and core work (little and often) in the lead up.

Do you use a HR monitor? Use it, stay in zone 2, watch the numbers when climbing, drop to a bottom gear quicker than you think.

Candence = spin, not grind as it helps to clear lactic acid. Even when tired, resist grinding, change gears and spin (80 to 90rpm).

Can you draft properly? Learn to draft properly.

Get really good padded gloves and new bar tape.

Get new, v good bib shorts, don't trust old because after 12 hours they'll be a baggy mess.

If you like slightly baggy tops, nipple tape.

60g carbs every hour, 3mg/kg caffeine, single dose every 6 hours (big one 45 mins before the start to get to race weight. I used to use nsaid but I'm on blood thinners now and MTFU.

Stretch on the bike every 30 mins (even at the start), but only 80% of what you think.

Have you got support? I love tubs of rice and jam alternate with pork scratching but a pain to carry.

Presume you have decent road lights?

Unslam your stem.

Cross bar bags are handy for extra shite.

Organise your pockets. Right is food, middle is spare clothing (oh, arm warmers, get arm warmers), left is more food with your phone.swap if you are left handed.

I prefer a gilet to a jacket.

New pads for the helmet.

Pre prepared syringe or two of chamois creme to squirt down there as required.

Don't stop, you'll never make up for the rest you had, just chug along.

If you stop, 30 sec touch toes and refueling then go, maybe treat your face to a damp cloth if you are a sweaty git.

Don't trust any dogs with orange eyebrows.

Any tips on how to get prepared to be a long distance roadie in under a month? Is it basically… do longer road rides?

Pretty much.
Fit the road wheels to your CX and do the rest of your rides with that set-up. TBH, I think you're going to have to get used to suffering a bit. That said, longer rides are basically just a mental thing. You'll go through some dark places mentally, times you'll want to throw the bike in a hedge. But equally, there'll be some great moments as well. Trick is learning to deal with the dark moments and knowing they'll pass.

Honestly - with a month to go your best bet is just to fit the road wheels, ride that bike as much as possible and try and do some long rides. You won't be "race fit" but you should at least be expecting it.

+1 for you’re going to suffer. Fitness-wise there’s not a lot you can do at this stage. You can fine-tune your position on the gravel bike, if you don’t use it frequently. Practise being aero (elbows in not out if you’ve got flared bars) - no sense giving yourself more work to do.
Keep it slow and steady. How are you planning to carry your kit and food? Is there a support vehicle?
Do invest in a good quality pair of bib shorts if yours are a bit tired. Be sure they fit and that you break them in a bit. Work out what fuel works best for you over time (for example, you might want to avoid carb-heavy bread or cake during the ride as it absorbs water).

18 hours seems optimistic for 400km doesn’t it?

18 hours riding time seems about right.

If you've been riding regularly, you'll be fine. It'll hurt, but noone finds 400km easy.
Do some longer rides sure, but don't overdo it - definitely have an easy week in the run up.

Bring some caffeine pills or something, just staying awake for that kind of distance is hard.

As others above have said,a lot of it is a mental thing,getting in your zone and don't faff about at stops.I did a 300 in a day last weekend without much training, and mostly on my own.I was creeping along in a horrible headwind ,so if you get drafting/sharing thing sorted out with your group it will be fine.

Lots of good advice there, but really it’s just keep on chugging along. Sounds like you’re fit enough and you just need to keep the pace down. Eat plenty, drink plenty and just keep riding. You’ll get there. It really is mostly mental at that distance. I just did the Frontier 300 - 300km, ~4500m of ascent, 50% gravel and stinker of a steep hikeabike in the middle. I’m a wee bit younger, but ride less at the moment and I’m 6’3” and 15st, so I work on the hills. It was tough but I just kept on riding and enjoyed a lot (not all!) of it in the end. Actually, I’m quite jealous!

Ibuprofen seem to help me (as a precautionary measure).

definitely think about / work on position. Riding that long, just keeping your head up will tire muscles in your neck and shoulders so unslam the stem, take peak off your helmet, and make that as easy as you can.

Being slightly less aero will make it a bit harder. Having fatigued your neck so much you can't look ahead of you and have blinding tension headaches will finish your ride completely.

Fit the road wheels to your CX and do the rest of your rides with that set-up.

Agree with this. New bike will feel weird.

Wear your comfiest padded Lycra on the day.

Urgh. Yuk, lycra on a hot day 🤒

Pre prepared syringe or two of chamois creme to squirt down there as required.

Double yuk.

Get a nice pair of Ralph Lauren cotton boxer shorts and wear them under a pair of comfy, loose fitting shorts that allows air flow. Much nicerer.
I appreciate that I will be in a minority of 1 with this position, but nowt worse than minging sweaty nadgers for 18 hours.

( Don't stop at Asda mid ride to buy some nasty cheap replacements if the main pair get soaked from not having mudguards in a rainstorm. They will not be the same)

I reckon it's doable if you get the food and group riding bit sorted. Though you may have issues if the group is going 1/2 mph more than you're comfy with.

Good luck.

AND, it’s nearly all MTB or gravel.

@hardtailonly what route are you doing? I can't work out of this comment is what you normally ride or your getting to Gretna off road?

What fitness levels are the people your riding with? Are they similar to you or fitter / worse than you?

There's nothing worse than trying to hold a wheel of someone whose fitter than you on a long ride.

How light are your 2nd set of wheels? And what tyres are you running? Tyres will probably make the biggest help

It sounds like you're plenty fit enough. Stuff like this is mainly mental, plus getting your food, bike set-up etc right on the day. Do a few big rides ASAP to get this sorted and get you confident and you'll have a great day.

what route are you doing? I can’t work out of this comment is what you normally ride or your getting to Gretna off road?

@damascus - I read that comment that the OP does most of their riding MTB/gravel therefore it's the 400km on road that is causing concern...

OP: the best you can hope for on this sort of timeframe is to sort out the logistics like how you're carrying stuff, making sure the bike (especially the drivetrain) is clean and serviceable and everything that you're wearing is comfy. You'll need a few long rides to work all this out so focus on that rather than fitness because long rides will soon highlight any niggles. Work on addressing those rather than vague plans of "getting fitter".

Oh and good luck, try to enjoy it!

What climbing is involved in this ride? A quick strava check shows c 17000 feet for a straightforward there and back route. That is one immense one day ride. For the coming 3 and a bit weeks I'd ditch everything except getting miles in and hours in the saddle. It has all been said above really....no new kit for the day, no new saddle for the day, no new nutrition for the day. (Daughters chap did Liverpool to Leeds last summer, their biggest issue was that they took 30 minute breaks rather than 5-10 minute ones. It meant that they were out riding until 2100 rather than finishing at c 1830. Do that on this ride and it will make an 18hr ride take well over 24)

Do you have a support vehicle? Carrying food, water, spares?

It always amazes me just how much time it takes to find food and water on a trip and how much faster you are when you don't have to sort that out on route and carry it all.

And if you can't get a support vehicle dump a vehicle the day before with everything you need as you will be passing the vehicle twice and it might be useful to know there's water, food and spare tyres or tubes in it.

Thanks all. Some good advice there.

Just to clarify a few points ...

Most of my current riding is MTB/Gravel. Overall fitness is not an issue, well, for 2-3 hour rides.

This is the route:
https://www.komoot.com/tour/743027399

388km. 3500m climbing. Fleet Moss (obvs, twice) would seem to be the main killer climb, rest of it is not too bad, but lumpy.

We have 2 support vehicles, so food, water, spare clothing etc, plus mechanical support, so can minimise what I'm carrying on the bike.
The support vehicles also mean that there is the option of bailing out, getting a lift to a train station etc if it all goes horribly wrong, or if I (or anyone else) are significantly flagging and holding down the group pace too much. But, mentally, I'm determined to do it all.

Don't really know much about the other riders, there's 6 or 7 of us. Most seem to ride road 'for fun'. One guy is apparently very used to endurance riding (and is using this as a 'recovery ride' 🤯. But think the rest of us are more mortal!

My plan is to do:

* a lot more core and stretching over the coming 3-4 weeks

* possibly try out a mate's decent road bike - will try it for a 3 hour ride to check it fits and is comfortable

* break in my new pearl izumi bibs (see the psa on another thread)

* at least one 4-6 hour ride per week for the next 3 weeks

* a couple of 2-3 hour rides per week, possibly doing some hill work.

I need to decide what to do about a planned 10/12 hour MTB ride in the Peaks on 2 July. As I'm in the Peaks, I'd much sooner MTB, and kinda think that 10/12 hours in the saddle will still be good preparation. But maybe I should turn it into a road ride ... 😬

New cassette and chainrings for as low gears as you can fit.

It sounds like you’re plenty fit enough. Stuff like this is mainly mental,

This, and being comfortable on your bike. BTW I started hallucinating on a 400km ride last month, through tiredness, so try and bank plenty of sleep in the week leading up to the ride.

New cassette and chainrings for as low gears as you can fit.

I've a new (under 300km) drivetrain on, 1x11, 42t chain ring, 11/46 Cassette. I'm comfortable with that range.

(Although, if I end up using my mate's bike I think that's 2x11, need to check what the gearing is, but suspect it's a compact and 11/32 cassette.

This, and being comfortable on your bike.

The 'being comfortable' is the bit that's worrying me the most. Neck, shoulders, back were all tense after yesterday's ride. Might try a higher rise stem, but its probably more about getting more time on the bike, core work, stretching when we stop, and ibuprofen!

I’d bring a ton of ibuprofen with me. I reckon your back and neck will give up long before your legs.

Other than that all good advice I reckon. Never ridden anything like that, but I don’t find riding long distances is as much a physical as mental challenge. As long as you fuel properly and pace yourself you’ll be grand

You’ll also be bored out your mind after the first 100 I suspect

Get a nice pair of Ralph Lauren cotton boxer shorts and wear them under a pair of comfy, loose fitting shorts that allows air flow. Much nicerer.
I appreciate that I will be in a minority of 1 with this position

There is a reason why that is

Riding on Ibuprofen is a really bad idea. Not only is it bad for your kidney's which need to function well for hydration during your ride, it can mask some subtle pain or injury that you should attend to - better to stretch and/or rest the area concerned that be exaggerating it because you can't feel it.

https://ispyphysiology.com/2018/01/03/taking-ibuprofen-during-exercise-may-cause-more-harm-than-good/

And don't focus on FTP, its no good to you now. As above long slow rides with practised kit and a healthy diet is the way to go - good luck!

I thought I read somewhere that Ibruprofen reduces cycling gains from "training rides."

If you go for the 2x11 compact road bike, I strongly endorse getting an 11-34 cassette, been using them ~2 years and 34/34 is great as a bailout gear when legs are getting tired. I was using 11-32 before, but having 30 and 34 as eaasiest two sprockets makes such a difference for me.

I’ve a new (under 300km) drivetrain on, 1×11, 42t chain ring, 11/46 Cassette. I’m comfortable with that range.

You might struggle to keep up with the group with this gearing on the flat and rolling hills if everyone else is on a road bike with 2x. But you might appreciate the gearing later on when your legs are tired.

Borrow a road bike and take your bike as a back up if space. Then if the gears are too hard later on swop over. By that time the pace will have slowed down anyway.

Go OG TDF style.....brandy and speed*
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*probably not a great idea 😆

Most of my current riding is MTB/Gravel. Overall fitness is not an issue, well, for 2-3 hour rides.

A lot of MTB riders, on switching to road, find the struggle is not so much the overall fitness, it's the way that fitness is deployed.

MTB, you're doing very erratic efforts - short bursts of peak power, periods of relative rest (eg freewheeling downhill), periods of full body exertion like moving the bike around a lot over jumps or through singletrack. There's also a lot more stop/start at gates, top of hills etc.
Road, it's much more a constant steady state effort which can come as a bit of a shock when you don't have those "micro rest" periods.

I ride regularly with @hardtailonly. I can attest that there is definitely not much stopping/starting on our MTB rides!
Fitness wise you'll be fine I reckon..
You need to bloody well learn how to keep a lid on the pace though!

Road, it’s much more a constant steady state effort which can come as a bit of a shock when you don’t have those “micro rest” periods

That's what downhills on the road are for 😁

I'm in the exact same situation as OP! 170 mile ride over 3 days in September with colleagues all of whom are commited roadies. I have been MTB only for the last 30 years but have bought a gravel bike for this.

Did a 60 miler on canal tow paths a couple of weeks ago just to see if I could go that far, it wasn't nice. My arms were killing me! I did the miles ok but dont know if I could get up and to it again for another 2 days running. I have the same issue of not wanting to lose MTB time to road training lol.

Don't get married at the half way point.

388km. 3500m climbing.

Hmmmm. That sounds tough. The 400km bit sounded eminently doable, but 3500m of climbing is a different mater.

There is no substitute for time on bike. But part of that is eating properly too. And for 12h TTs I take ibuprofen to ease the pains (1200 mg in a day is a maximum for one day). You can ride about double your longest ride, so try for about a 200km ride sometime this month at a nice steady pace. Find out what you like to eat and drink. And hone a comfortable position. Take a SIS caffeine espresso gel every three hours and a normal gel every hour or so with some normal food too (mini pork pies are rocket fuel).

You'll be fine, just don't go too hard. And eat and drink more than you think you need to. In my last 12h TT, my fastest hour of the 12 was the last one. Just pace yourself properly and enjoy it.

Most of my current riding is MTB/Gravel. Overall fitness is not an issue, well, for 2-3 hour rides.

There's a world of difference between 2-3 hours of MTB/gravel and upwards of nearly a day sat on the road.

On a 2-3 hour ride at the most I'll eat a banana and get though less than a litre of water/fluid - and as it's MTB/gravel probably only actually sat down for half that time. All I can imagine is that you just need to ride more, and for longer, far longer and then kinda accept you'll be getting a lift back from Gretna.

The 400km bit sounded eminently doable, but 3500m of climbing is a different mater.

That's less than 1% overall - it's not a hilly route.

Find out what you like to eat and drink.

On a ride of that length, the only sports products I use are electrolyte tablets for my bottles. Everything else is real food and drink. I find I get heartburn if I don't eat regularly so I make sure to have some snacks (fruit cake, banana, flapjack, jam sandwiches) with me on the bike. But we're all different.

Take a SIS caffeine espresso gel every three hours and a normal gel every hour or so with some normal food too (mini pork pies are rocket fuel).

That'd have me on the toilet every 15 miles!

Did a 60 miler on canal tow paths a couple of weeks ago just to see if I could go that far, it wasn’t nice. My arms were killing me!

Towpaths are dull though and surprisingly hard work. Flat so you have to keep pedalling, there's little opportunity or need to move around on the bike, bumpy enough that you're constantly getting vibrations and there's a lot of slowing for narrow sections / walkers etc then accelerating again so it's quite tiring.

Take a SIS caffeine espresso gel every three hours and a normal gel every hour or so with some normal food too (mini pork pies are rocket fuel).

Op thinks it will take around 18 hours give or take so that's about 24 gels.

That’d have me on the toilet every 15 miles!

And I think it would make me sick!

I think we are all different when it comes to food on a bike. What works for one doesn't work for another. I've done supported rides before and haven't fancied what I had in my bag that I thought id want the night before and had to force it down. Sometimes you need to make yourself eat. So I now take varied food and too much so I can change my mind.

The 400km bit sounded eminently doable, but 3500m of climbing is a different mater.

That’s less than 1% overall

No it's not. It's twice that. ( assuming the start and end points are about level)

it’s not a hilly route.

Well, I was wondering about this. The 2% average gradient is not much, but another way to look at it is half as hilly as the Fred.... 3500m in 388km instead of 3500m in 180km.
I'd still say that is pretty hilly.

( or at least it is compared to my only similar endurance ride which was probably less than 1000m in 500km)

Op thinks it will take around 18 hours give or take so that’s about 24 gels.

One gel an hour washed down with fluids, is my norm, coupled with one dose of more solid food (banana, malt loaf slices, fruit bar, semolina, sticky rice in freezer bags) plus some bloks or other sweets ad libitum. Distance is an exercise in eating and drinking, not riding. SIS gels are very easy on the stomach, and drinking some electrolyte with them is really not so different to energy drinks (except you know you've taken in the energy and drunk the fluids). I try and eat something every 30 min. Basically a continuous oral glucose infusion with the odd savoury added for variety.

And mini pork pies when you stop to rest. I struggle to chew solids when riding, and when racing, I don't stop (<6 min off the bike in a 12 hr TT, normally to go to the toilet after a couple of hours of fluid rebalancing!).

Yeah, I do need to think about fuel.

I tend to just use electrolyte for liquid, Zero tabs.

I'm not a great fan of gels, but can just about stomach a few, will probably carry a few just to take occasionally, eg when flagging or facing a big hill. Otherwise, will want to use a variety of 'normal' food. Pork pies, boiled eggs, banana, flapjack, chicken & ham wraps, home made rice cakes. Think we're planning a proper cafe stop at lunchtime at about half way.

Just ordered some new shoes, my current ones are too tight, wearable for a couple of hours, but longer than that and they hurt.

Any advice on gloves/bar tape? Is double-wrapping the bar worthwhile or can that make things more painful? And I don't tend to use padded gloves, but I do suffer from a bit of carpal tunnel syndrome following a broken finger accident earlier in the year. Will padded gloves make a positive difference?

Otherwise, will want to use a variety of ‘normal’ food. Pork pies, boiled eggs, banana, flapjack, chicken & ham wraps, home made rice cakes

Everyone's stomach is different but I wouldn't be taking the pork pies. For me the extra fat in them makes them hard to digest on the bike and I get lots of indigestion. The rest I'd be ok with though, probably. Not sure about flapjack, not tried it.

Any advice on gloves/bar tape? Is double-wrapping the bar worthwhile or can that make things more painful?

I'm a fan of gel strips under tape. Super comfy despite feeling a bit big at first.

Will padded gloves make a positive difference?

For me, any kind of gloves are useful even though they aren't in fashion at the moment. Some of mine are lightly padded, some are just double (fake) leather, but it's the protection from pulling and pushing on skin that seems to help. You seem to get much more of this on drop bars because the position on the hoods and drops involves sideways force on your palm skin. Lots of people don't use them though, but I suspect they've built up to it over many years rather than diving straight into a 400k.

So longest rides I've done have only been hilly 200km/3500m climbing (Fred Whitton, similar nos in the alps, etap de dales and a couple of other sportives0. Which I guess is only 2%! Wow. Feels like plenty is all I'll say.

Anyway, I know zilch compared to the posters above who've actually done double this, but have one thing to add on the ibuprofen it's not just for pain, I take it as a preventative measure before a big road ride to counter inflamation - dodgy shoulder on the downhills, lower back to a lesser extent etc etc to prevent or at least slow down the inevitable flaring up and reducing any lasting impact of the ride (remembering now why I've zero desire to do any more of that kind of stuff). And I start taking it the day before the ride. If you're going to do it, don't wait for pain.

(Only done this to get through actual events fwiw, and not for fun things like Jennride.)

Is double-wrapping the bar worthwhile or can that make things more painful?

It makes the bar considerably fatter - if you have small hands this is a very bad thing. It's something you kind of need to be used to, not something you do last minute for a one-off ride.

Will padded gloves make a positive difference?

Personal preference. I go for fairly minimal padding but you can buy gloves with padding in all sorts of places - palm of hand, outer edge, base of the fingers...

No it’s not. It’s twice that. ( assuming the start and end points are about level)

Eh? 3500m/400km is 0.875%

That's not hilly. I did a Bristol-London-Bristol 400km audax with about that much climbing, it was a flattish route with a couple of lumps.

Well, I was wondering about this. The 2% average gradient is not much, but another way to look at it is half as hilly as the Fred…. 3500m in 388km instead of 3500m in 180km.
I’d still say that is pretty hilly.

It doesn't work like that! The Fred will see you going into the red quite often, which will catch up with you later in the ride. In contrast, a flattish route allows you to spend much more of your time in zone 2, conserving your energy.

Yes - being 'in the red' which very much does not feel like it for the first few minutes early on in the ride will dramatically shorten your overall endurance.

Eh? 3500m/400km is 0.875%

That’s not hilly.

Pointless argument. It might be completely flat with a few huge climbs, or little undulations all the way, but your legs will still feel 3500m.

It might be completely flat with a few huge climbs, or little undulations all the way, but your legs will still feel 3500m.

I think the point being made is that 3500m isn't always the same impact on your legs.

If you are doing a few hugs passes at 3-4% then you can twiddle up those at zone 2 given the appropriate gears, which is going to be far easier than a 20% ripper out of some Welsh valley or Yorkshire dale 30 times.

, I don’t stop (<6 min off the bike in a 12 hr TT,

Out of all the numbers I've ever seen on stw, that is the most impressive. My mind is boggled 🙂
I was aiming for 2 hours off the bike in my 24hr, knowing that in reality I'd need more. I guess if I could change my diet to something more similar to yours..... but I 'need' to eat nice food.

Eh? 3500m/400km is 0.875%

WTAF. Unless he's planning on doing this ride in Bolivia or somewhere, hes going to have to descend almost every single one of those 3500m. Given that I think he said it's a there and back route, we can safely assume the gradients on the downhill will be the same as the uphill. So essentially he will be climbing 3500m in ~194km. Which is nowhere near 0.875%

No?

Re elevation, I think the route, as far as possible, follows the valley floors.

https://ibb.co/cbF0qVp

The biggy is, of course, Fleet Moss, at around 78km (and again, in reverse, at around 310km). Its not stupidly steep, but is pretty intense and sustained. What I know of the rest of the route (essentially the Leeds side of Fleet Moss) is that its not really flat, it's quite undulating, which over 400km is likely to become somewhat energy-sapping.

I'm planning to ride to Hawes and back sometime this or early next week, will be about 170km and will give me a bit of a sense of where I'm at ...

So essentially he will be climbing 3500m in ~194km. Which is nowhere near 0.875%

No?

No. I don't think so. At least, I hope not!

I understand it to be 3500m over the full 388km. So, the ride to Gretna will be 1750m climbing. Which is then repeated on the way back.

So essentially he will be climbing 3500m in ~194km. Which is nowhere near 0.875%

No?

No, it's 3500m of climbing overall - 1750m out there, 1750m back (give or take). So 400km, 3500m climbing which is concentrated on Fleet Moss with a load of other "undulations".

I wish people wouldn't get hung up on climbing and averages and % gradients, it's all massively overthinking it. I ride lead on a multi day tour every year and without fail every year there's frantic panicking on the forum before the ride -
what's "the worst" hill?
what's the average gradient?
how long does it take to climb [hill]?
what gearing do it need?

I always feel like saying to them: FFS, it's a bike ride, there will be some ups, some downs and some flat bits. Deal with it.
But I don't - cos I'm dead proffeshunal. 😉

WTAF. Unless he’s planning on doing this ride in Bolivia or somewhere, hes going to have to descend almost every single one of those 3500m. Given that I think he said it’s a there and back route, we can safely assume the gradients on the downhill will be the same as the uphill. So essentially he will be climbing 3500m in ~194km. Which is nowhere near 0.875%

No disrespect, but I've read this several times and I still don't really understand your reasoning. He's travelling 400km during which time he will be climbing 3500m. What is the significance of it being a there & back route. Does not compute. Sorry.

I understand it to be 3500m over the full 388km. So, the ride to Gretna will be 1750m climbing. Which is then repeated on the way back.

🙄 it's not 3500m climbing over 388km. It's 3500m of climbing and 3500m of descending over 388km. Given that the route is reversed on the return, it's clear that there is exactly the same length of descent as there is of ascent, ie 194km. So 3.5/194.
Which is not 0.875

Pointless argument. It might be completely flat with a few huge climbs, or little undulations all the way, but your legs will still feel 3500m.

Again, it doesn't work like that. I've done a 160km ride with 3500m of climbing, and it was far harder than the same amount in 400km. I recently did a 600km ride with 7000m of climbing and my legs were less tired than when I did 5000m in 175km.

The challenge with the longer distances is more mental than physical IME.

it’s not 3500m climbing over 388km.

Komoot says it is.

So 3.5/194.

If that were true, the OP's Garmin would show 3500m at the halfway point. It won't.

.

When you calculate how much climbing vs distance you do over a ride, you don't just count the bits where you are actually going upwards. If I ride up a mountain and travel 10km up while climbing 1000m & then stop at the top and get the car home, then I will have ridden 10km and climbed 1000m = 10%.
If I climb the same mountain but then freewheel back to the bottom that will be a 20km ride = 5%
EDIT just seen your post. The hill itself doesn't change but the amount of climbing you do as a percentage of the ride as a whole halves. The error you are a making is to try and count the time spent climbing. Don't forget the OP's ride will have lots of flat bits (as will almost any ride) so who knows how many km he will be spending going up a hill. Elevation is about the ride as a whole.

Rubbish 🙂 The climbing is mixed in with the descending.

I know. And because it's a there and back, 1750m climbing will be in each half.

What would you say the ‘average’ gradient is now? Has the hill suddenly got 50% less steep as he is also cycling down it?

The total climbing is the same but in your second example, the average halves because it's twice as far. I don't know why you find this hard to understand.

If I climb the same mountain but then freewheel back to the bottom that will be a 20km ride = 5%

Precisely. In your example the 20km ride is barely more effort than the 10km ride.

Each to his own, I'm more interested in how steep the hills will be rather than how steep the ride will be.

And because it’s a there and back, 1750m climbing will be in each half.

Incorrect. IF that were the case, it would be because start and end point were at the same height, nothing to do with the there and back.

Incorrect.

It really isn't.

IF that were the case, it would be because start and end point were at the same height, nothing to do with the there and back

Good grief. It's a return route with 3500m total climbing over the whole route. Therefore 1750m in each half (assuming similar altitude for the start and halfway points). This isn't difficult to understand.

Each to his own, I’m more interested in how steep the hills will be rather than how steep the ride will be.

Which is a different question.

Good grief. It’s a return route with 3500m total climbing over the whole route. Therefore 1750m in each half. This isn’t difficult to understand.

Incorrect. Leeds is 63m asl, and Gretna is 40. He does less climbing on the way there, and more on the return.

Incorrect. Leeds is 63m asl, and Gretna is 40. He does less climbing on the way there, and more on the return.

Which is why I edited my post for clarity, because of that crucial 23m difference.

Irrelevant of where the climbs are, I reckon he'll bail at Gretna.

Irrelevant of where the climbs are, I reckon he’ll bail at Gretna

Why? What do you know about me that would lead you to speculate that?

What do you know about me that would lead you to speculate that?

🙂

Well, this thread has become really interesting. Well done everyone, I'm really looking forward to all your contributions!

Why? What do you know about me that would lead you to speculate that?

You'll do it. Just take it steady, eat and drink plenty, and stay in a group. If you get the dozies in the night a 15 minute nap can work wonders. It sure beats cycling into a hedge.

Irrelevant of where the climbs are, I reckon he’ll bail at Gretna.

he doesn't want to do that because then he'd be forever...

intheborders
Free Member

That and it's downhill going back. Just look at a map.

Fleet Moss is long getting to 590m, and is, er, alpine as dales hills go though it does kick near the top, worse on the Hawes side (it's also the fastest descent in the dales - utterly terrifying when there are lambs about. Even I get into high 40s mph).

I'd not be bothering with the Asquith road on the way back if it was me, and I'd be strongly resenting the Chevin.

Above all I'd be praying for decent south easterly wind on the way out that swings to a north westerly the return. The reverse would be character building.