[Closed] Help me explain why " all lives matter" is not the same as BLM

Wish I could suss images.

"We said Black Lives Matter
Never said Only Black Lives Matter
We know All Lives Matter
We just need your help with #blacklivesmatter
Because black lives are in danger"

Here's a few explanations:

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/11/12136140/black-all-lives-matter

I think the comic strip works fairly well:

As a white person, my view is of course limited, but it seems to me that "all lives matter" is a cry that totally denies that there's any difference between the lived experiences of people regardless of colour, and I do not believe that that's true.

but it seems to me that “all lives matter” is a cry that totally denies that there’s any difference between the lived experiences of people regardless of colour

This

Shit, I wish I hadn't looked on special media at this shit, seems there's a wave of it at the mo.
Best I read was:
"WHERE THE **** ARE THE ALL LIVES MATTER PEOPLE? O wait... it's not a real movement, it's just a way for people to be rascist assholes and dehumanize black people fighting for their rights."

Black Lives Matter because they're not valued as equal to white lives.
For All Lives Matter to be true we need to end discrimination and recognise that being white gives us access to opportunities that are not available to those who experience racism.
Feel free to ask more questions 😊

But all lives are different and colour is only one of many variables that make lives different. What about gender, wealth, family back ground to name just 3

You’ll find those bleating “all lives matter” tend not to want things to improve for people discriminated against because of their gender, wealth, family background etc either.

But all lives are different

Your life matters dude.

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/the-amercian-riots/ FYI TJ, not sure why the url is different to the actual George Floyd title.

What about gender, wealth, family back ground to name just 3

Because that’s how ignorants and racsist (I’m not accusing you) water down or distract from what it means to be black.

Cheers folk - that helps me a lot.

She just does not see it - not as an excuse to discriminate.

Ta

What about gender, wealth, family back ground to name just 3

You've fallen into a 'whataboutism' logical fallacy there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Two people:
One is starving.
One is not.

Do you give them both food?

I grew up piss poor on a shitty, rough council estate. Yet my life was (and is) relatively good on many levels. Black people from better socioeconomic backgrounds have had it tougher just because of their skin colour. Black people from the same sort of places I grew up in, I can’t even fathom what they’re up against.

I’m not wording this very well and faerie is the best to answer TJ’s question tbh. I can’t imagine being scared of the police, or knowing that some people will judge me based on skin tone. It’s utterly ****ed up and that’s why BLM matters. At least to me any way.

It’s a targeted rebuttal to racism past and present committed overwhelmingly against black people.

It’s not a general platitude. It doesn’t negate that all lives matter. Although I can see why it’s confusing for certain people. I can also see that it ‘enrages’ some people. Don’t be those people.

"Save the whales" did not mean "**** the other fish"

(Yes, I know whales are technically mammals)

Basically they ****ed up their slogan.

The movement is saying "black lives ALSO matter." White lives already matter, these aren't intended to be mutually exclusive concepts.

Again ta. MY mother is no racist in anyway but a very sharp and intolerant of waffle woman and I just could not find the right words to explain.

Ta muchly

gah... Cougar's image was redex up when I went to post mine

Three words are enough. The “also” isn’t required. That, in many situations, in many countries, black lives clearly do not matter to those with the power to take lives… that is the point. That there are people who act as if black lives do not matter… that is what is being brought to our attention, and what campaigners want to change.

Michael Holding on a Sky cricket mini doc, I'm paraphrasing but 'we are saying black lives matter because we have been taught all our lives that only white guys matter'

Tell ya ma to read 'why I stopped talking to white people about race'.

There's a good explanation in there of why this kind of 'I don't see race' view isn't actually helpful or fair.

intolerant of waffle

Well thats a whole different debate.

Tell ya ma to read ‘why I stopped talking to white people about race’.

Totally agree. But better yet, "White Fragility" by Robin DiAngelo.

She just does not see it – not as an excuse to discriminate.

That's kind of the thing, I think a few years ago, I'd have been saying "all lives matter" too - it's not, I don't think, to castigate white people, more that we need to be more considerate, I think.

That, in many situations, in many countries, black lives clearly do not matter to those with the power to take lives

What situations in what countries?

When we say 'Save the Rain Forest'....people dont say what about all trees? Dont all trees matter?

Intolerant of waffle meaning if I gave her a waffle explanation I would be shot down in flames hence wanting something clear and concise which you guys have given me

What situations in what countries?

Well, start with police using lethal force in many USA states. It’s much wider than that, but have a read about that first.

Edit: having just read your posts in other similar threads, that question clearly wasn’t asked in good faith. Apologies to others for replying to you.

Three words are enough. The “also” isn’t required.

The "also" shouldn't be required. But it demonstrably is in certain circumstances or this thread wouldn't exist.

A slogan doesn’t need to be an essay.

‘Black Lives Matter’ is all that is needed. Those who don’t think Black Lives Matter know exactly what the phrase means. Those that genuinely have to ask what it means will learn from asking questions.

Tj, it's good to hear that these discussions are being had, thank you.

Yes, the Michael Holding piece said it for me. IIRC he said OF COURSE White Lives Matter, that has never been in doubt. No one has ever questioned it, because it's so obvious and it's taken for granted. That really resonated for me, that not once in my life had I considered the value of my life as being remotely connected to my skin colour.

BLM isn't even all black lives either - BLM is only about those people killed by police

If they want to save black lives they should be trying to sort out the actual issue not one that just gets sound bites and hashtags.

If you were say of ****stani heritage right now having also felt totally marginalised most of your life looking on what would you be thinking?...

I'm with you - black lives do matter?
I'm with you - and this is about my life too, kind of?
Good on you, we'll have our turn next?
Could you not have tweaked the slogan a bit and made me part of the gang?

BLM isn’t even all black lives either – BLM is only about those people killed by police

If they want to save black lives they should be trying to sort out the actual issue not one that just gets sound bites and hashtags

FFS. Such ignorance has to be wilful.

FFS. Such ignorance has to be wilful.

You didn't watch the video or read what BLM actually stands for (They have a radical Marxist agenda BTW). It is only about police brutality.

i thought, all lives matter was the vegetarian thing.

this is as bad as the nhs stealing the pride rainbow.

winkysmiley

They have a radical Marxist agenda BTW

Good.

If you were say of ****stani heritage right now having also felt totally marginalised most of your life looking on what would you be thinking?…

Well for a start this is born of the US which has a very different demographic to here.

Second, my honky ass assumed that "black" meant BAME people generally. Like, you want a definitive list for your placard?

You didn’t watch the video or read what BLM actually stands for (They have a radical Marxist agenda BTW). It is only about police brutality.

When's that video from? Who gives a **** if they're overly committed to an equal society where the poor and hungry are not left to die?

Poah, BLM is a movement of individuals, not an organisation. They stand for more than stopping police violence and are fighting to end racism in all its forms, I'm looking for a judicial review of SPSO legislation and legal aid for human rights and public law cases, it is something that will be of benefit to all lives.
Some black people such as Morgan Freeman and Kanye West have internalised racism, refusing to see it as a collective problem and projecting the blame back on to individuals and accepting the narrative of "whiteness".

Cougar, your honky ass assumed correctly. There's been quite a bit of discussion around terminology and language, black is inclusive of anyone of colour, but fails to recognise the vast diversity of culture and experience. BAME is not a word and is falling out of favour as it segregates people who have a shared experience and diminishes their issues. PoWER, People Who Experience Racism has been mooted

BAME is not a word and is falling out of favour

Good, cos it made my teeth itch using it.

This is part of the problem and it doesn't help the various causes, words being a moving target. If you're obsessing about correct terms then it diverts attention from the bigger issues. I once got chastised for referring to "coloured people," I said I'm sorry, I genuinely thought that was preferred terminology, my mistake, what should I say instead? and was told "people of colour."

At the point where someone is hanging their hat on the same words in a differing order being fine or problematic surely they've lost focus? Like come on, we're trying to do the right thing here.

The inequality in outcomes for BAME people in the western world is a disgrace, there's no doubt about that. In so far as BLM relates to that, it makes sense to highlight it and I can see why tagging on "all lives matter" glosses over that and could cause upset.

What's not so cool is that it's basically impossible to have any reasonable discourse about it without being accused of being racist or ignorant or both. The fact that there's even a need to seek outside help to correct your mum's thought error speaks to this.

In the context of the US, if you ask people how many people (all races) are shot dead by police they typically get it wrong by 1 or 2 orders of magnitude (it's ~1000/yr).
Broadly a risk of death of 1 in 10000 if you're arrested. Black people are dis-proportionally represented in this 1000. However, if you look by arrest it's far less clear that there's any racial bias. As in, once the police try to arrest you it's not clear that as a black person you are more likely to suffer harm. It likely circles back to societal inequality leading to increased interaction with the police rather the police just killing people based on racial bias.

So a lot of people, myself included, feel some discomfort at the use shocking internet videos to drive things because it's whipping up a frenzy not necessarily focused on the right things (for example, defunding the police is insane and would likely harm people in the most crime affected areas which are likely to have higher BAME populations etc). We're allowing hysteria rather than evidence to drive action and that doesn't feel right. With millions of interactions with the police, it's a matter of when not if the next video emerges and then what?

I'm not sure I agree with this but there's a critique of BLM that if you truly aspire to a post-race world then this ultra attention on racial difference is incompatible with this. At some point we'll need to transition to a place where BLM would sound as strange as someone setting up a defence league for people with brown hair.

In the context of the US, if you ask people how many people (all races) are shot dead by police they typically get it wrong by 1 or 2 orders of magnitude (it’s ~1000/yr).
Broadly a risk of death of 1 in 10000 if you’re arrested. Black people are dis-proportionally represented in this 1000. However, if you look by arrest it’s far less clear that there’s any racial bias. As in, once the police try to arrest you it’s not clear that as a black person you are more likely to suffer harm. 

I don't remember the figures, but in the UK the likelihood of dying in custody is roughly the same regardless of colour - but if you look at causes of death, black people are significantly more likely to either die from the effects of restraint or from some kind of physical altercation. In the US, we know the names of the George Floyds, the Eric Garners, the Breonna Taylors, and many more - I only ever hear one white person's name mentioned in whataboutery by the All/White Lives Matter brigade.

If at a funeral for a child the mother gave a eulogy saying he was a very special child, it would take a real arsehole to run up to the front and shout "all children are special!".

In the US context you're using a serious of dreadful anecdotes to counter the data. There is a huge difference between us and the US in that grappling with an armed police offer is highly dangerous because he/she has to view that as a direct threat to their life if they are overpowered.

In the UK there have been 163 deaths in the last 10 years in or following police custody. Circa 150 deaths a year following police contact for all reasons. There's not a lot there to suggest the system killing of black people by the police on an epidemic scale. Deaths related to inequality is where the story is.

defunding the police is insane

What do you understand this to mean?

In the US context you’re using a serious of dreadful anecdotes to counter the data. There is a huge difference between us and the US in that grappling with an armed police offer is highly dangerous because he/she has to view that as a direct threat to their life if they are overpowered.

You're right, of course, but I think the strength of feeling about BLM stems from the observation that it KEEPS happening, mostly to black men, frequently where they are not grappling with the police, frequently where the police have total control of the person.

In the UK there have been 163 deaths in the last 10 years in or following police custody. Circa 150 deaths a year following police contact for all reasons. There’s not a lot there to suggest the system killing of black people by the police on an epidemic scale. Deaths related to inequality is where the story is

Again, I wouldn't necessarily argue with that, on the face of it - we're not the US, I don't think our police are anywhere near as bad as the US police. But that's not to say that there aren't issues over here - think I heard someone say in PMQs the other week that black men in London are 47 times more likely to be stopped and searched than white men? That can't be right.

Sorry, just to go back to this -

What’s not so cool is that it’s basically impossible to have any reasonable discourse about it without being accused of being racist or ignorant or both. The fact that there’s even a need to seek outside help to correct your mum’s thought error speaks to this.

I think you can discuss it in a harmonious way, as we're doing here - where it becomes a bit less pleasant is where people use All/White Lives Matter to suggest there's no inequality, or that racism isn't an issue.

What’s not so cool is that it’s basically impossible to have any reasonable discourse about it without being accused of being racist or ignorant or both. The fact that there’s even a need to seek outside help to correct your mum’s thought error speaks to this.

This is utter nonsense

I understand the concept but was struggling to explain in simply to my mother. I asked for a simple explanation and was given it which will help me to explain it to her.

I simply could not find the right words or analogy

You’ll find those bleating “all lives matter” tend not to want things to improve for people discriminated against because of their gender, wealth, family background etc either.

I noticed that too. All of the 'All lives matter' types that popped up on my FB were white and their other posts tended to hint at being fairly 'conservative', excepted when it came to things that they don't agree with.

Who'd have thunk it?

The "what about my legs" cartoon is as good an analogy as I've seen.

They're not talking about just defunding the police then having no law enforcement. They are saying that police forces (in the US at least) are often over-funded/equipped and semi-militarised and not fit for purpose, and attempts at reforming existing police departments have failed, so let's try a different solution. Not sure what's insane about that.

It's insane in that a more logical conclusion is to better fund the police, so you have better and more highly trained officers of a representative ethnic makeup.

To go back to this

observation that it KEEPS happening, mostly to black men, frequently where they are not grappling with the police, frequently where the police have total control of the person

When you use words like frequently do you mean frequently making the news and YouTube? Because I'm not sure there is any data to suggest that across the millions of police interactions in the US it's more frequent, as much as this runs counter to intuition.

I do stand by it being difficult to discuss this. There are some very reasonable posts on here but equally many implying that anyone who doesn't get BLM is racist/ignorant/thick.

They’re not talking about just defunding the police then having no law enforcement. They are saying that police forces (in the US at least) are often over-funded/equipped and semi-militarised and not fit for purpose, and attempts at reforming existing police departments have failed, so let’s try a different solution. Not sure what’s insane about that.

NYPD's budget is $10.9 billion - I'm not a police finance person, but that seems a lot to me.

I do stand by it being difficult to discuss this.

It's difficult when people start throwing around terms like 'insane' and claim there are statistics that counter the aims of BLM without ever actually posting links/evidence, and claiming that the movement is just based on YouTube videos.

Poah, BLM is a movement of individuals,

This is the thing that gets me. Its like the idea of a Cycling community or Muslim community. There are communities but there is no unified single POV or spokesperson that everyone gets behind. Individuals within a group may have opposing opinions!

Deaths related to inequality is where the story is

Addressing systemic inequality is a large part of the BLM movement. Which is why it's facetious at best to claim it's just about US police killings.

Defunding police can take many forms. In Ukraine the entire police force was sacked / disbanded, many rehired but the point was to be able to get rid of as much corruption as possible so everyone was removed and then had to join so people where then stopped from joining the police rather than being kicked out.

When you use words like frequently do you mean frequently making the news and YouTube? Because I’m not sure there is any data to suggest that across the millions of police interactions in the US it’s more frequent, as much as this runs counter to intuition.

In the context of the most extreme cases (George Floyd, Eric Garner, Breonna Taylor, Elijah MacClain, et al), yes, it comes from news channels and social media - they're outliers, I don't know if anyone's claiming they're commonplace, statistically significant events. But I think there's significance to being able to pull a handful of names out of my head, and there's plenty of statistical evidence that suggests race issues with US police -  black men are 2.5 times more likely than white men to be killed by police during their lifetime, for example, and black people fatally shot by police are twice as likely to be unarmed as white people.

The fact that there’s even a need to seek outside help to correct your mum’s thought error speaks to this.

Do not ever have difficulty explain matters to someone who has no frame of reference about the subject you are discussing? Asking for ideas to give a sound explanation that is accessible to the indented audience is positive step for any subject matter.

Thats it Brick!

In the UK there have been 163 deaths in the last 10 years in or following police custody.

Not one officer has been prosecuted for any of those deaths. There has been one prosecution in the last 50 or so years. Truly disgraceful and we have a problem with the attitude that prevails in law enforcement here regarding race.

It’s insane in that a more logical conclusion is to better fund the police

Better still discourage the my fellow officer right or wrong attitude that currently pervades our police services. Don't forget Cressida Dick was in charge of the operation when Jean de Menzies was shot, she should be allowed nowhere near command of a police service for that one error.

RE the defund the police thing, Last Week Tonight explained it well for me in this Video.

Essentially some (not all) US police forces have become over-militarized, are actively being trained to view themselves as 'killers', and are near-impossible to reform due to union power. For one New Jersey (I think) police force the only way to root out the corruption that had become endemic was to dissolve it and re-hire the good officers.

Right… let’s bring this closer to home…

Let’s say we had a high profile campaign to encourage more black people into mountain biking (and we should). If people started saying, ‘no, we should encourage more people to get into mountain biking, irrelevant of race’… they may mean well, and genuinely seek equality and involvement for all… or they may be against helping and encouraging more black people into mountain biking because they see at as their space, and they don’t mind or care that it is so white, or worse, feel a need to keep it that way. Whatever the motives… the watering down of the message would counter the intention of the campaign if the objectors were listened to, even if their concerns sound quite rational and reasonable on the surface at first to many.

Is this the ‘official’ statement?

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

Do not ever have difficulty explain matters to someone who has no frame of reference about the subject you are discussing? Asking for ideas to give a sound explanation that is accessible to the indented audience is positive step for any subject matter.

Honestly I'd usually take it as a sign that I was unqualified to be teaching them about something.

It’s difficult when people start throwing around terms like ‘insane’ and claim there are statistics that counter the aims of BLM without ever actually posting links/evidence, and claiming that the movement is just based on YouTube videos.

Thanks for the strawman, BLM is clearly more than YouTube videos but it's undeniable that YouTube videos such as that of George Floyd lit a spark and that people's perceptions of police brutality are driven by those out all proportion to the evidence.

I can provide data sources no problem, and you can probably challenge them. But hold others advocating for systematic police killing of black people to the same standard. The issue is inequality, blacks suffer disproportionately from inequality and as I've said above to that end BLM is on the right lines.

Approximately 10 million arrests /yr in the US

Approx 1000 deaths from shooting by police

Risk of death on arrest 1/10,000

A disproportionate number of violent crimes are committed by black people. 13% of the population but 50% (~7000/yr) murders. A disproportionate number of black people are arrested, but when they are arrested it doesn't seem to be the case that they're more likely to be shot. It should also be said that blacks dis-proportionally suffer from this violent crime.

This doesn't fit the narrative

This does suggest there's a problem

Basically nobody is quite sure what's going in but it's certainly not simple and it's certainly out of proportion to what the high profile police killings would suggest. There's even a suspicion that the George Floyd video could make matters worse. Could it end up with more people resisting arrest from lethally armed police officers?

Approx 1000 deaths from shooting by police

There are ways to die that don’t involve shooting, obviously. And that’s before we get into punishment beatings. If you going to argue that there is no problem faced by black people as regards policing in the USA, and to a much lesser extend the UK, then, quite frankly, we might be best ignoring all your contributions… because you are plain wrong on this.

100% agree that inequality is the issue, and that police brutality is one manifestation of a much bigger problem. But it is a particularly abhorrent manifestation, and one that should be comparatively easy to do something about, given that the police are literally there to protect people and not murder them. Arrested black people being no more likely to be shot seems to me to be a bit of a contortion that suggests that racism is not an issue with US police.

Could it end up with more people resisting arrest from lethally armed police officers?

Seriously? Three of the four names I've mentioned were not shot, and the one that was was shot by police who were in the wrong house. I don't think any of them were resisting in a way that justified use of lethal force.

Honestly I’d usually take it as a sign that I was unqualified to be teaching them about something.

I think you may have misunderstoody point. The person you are trying to explain to has no frame of reference. You yourself may have and may have excellent knowledge but conveying to this to someone with no knowledge can be difficult. Asking ways to approach this problem is normal.

So how many people were killed in US by police by a means other than shooting? I think you'll be disappointed when you google away because when cops have guns that seems by the far the easiest way to kill someone and the way least likely to end them up in prison. This truth does not detract from the fact the killing of George Floyd was abhorrent and should not happen. At the risk of triggering you, you can find videos on youtube of cats walking on two legs but I won't be making the case for cats being bipedal animals.

As I said above, black people are killed in disproportionate numbers. 13% of the population, but >20% of those killed. That does not tally with most people's intuition based on the high profile cases and speaks more to greater inequality, high crime rates and greater interaction with the police than other ethnic groups.

Seriously? Three of the four names I’ve mentioned were not shot, and the one that was was shot by police who were in the wrong house. I don’t think any of them were resisting in a way that justified use of lethal force.

Again, anecdotes. There are 10 million arrests per year, you are talking about 3 cases over a number of years. So 3 arrests out of potential a hundred million arrests.

It's a more trivial example, but it's like the daily mail selectively sharing the most ranty and unreasonable lycra warrior cyclists. This shapes people's views of "cyclists" but it doesn't account for the hundreds of millions of uneventful journeys by normal people on bikes.

When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

I think you may have misunderstoody point. The person you are trying to explain to has no frame of reference. You yourself may have and may have excellent knowledge but conveying to this to someone with no knowledge can be difficult. Asking ways to approach this problem is normal.

Being able to explain something in simple terms to a 6 year old is the Eisenstein definition of understanding. I think it's brilliant to recognise gaps in your knowledge and try and keep learning. I think going away and hoovering up arguments with the express intent of going back to persuade someone of something is a kind of sophistry rather than honest engagement.

Here we go again!!! 🙂

Being able to explain something in simple terms to a 6 year old is the Eisenstein definition of understanding

That was Einstein. And it's clearly false, there are some things that rely on the capability to understand as well as the ability to explain, but as a basic premise it's OK.

But there's nothing wrong in asking for help to translate something into a format that the 6yo would understand. Otherwise, why would teacher training exist.

Being able to explain something in simple terms to a 6 year old is the Eisenstein definition of understanding

Just because Einstein said it doesn't mean it's right. Some of the smartest people I knew during my postgrad work were the worst teachers of simple concepts because they knew so much about a subject that they couldn't communicate those concepts simply. Equally, less 'smart' people that I knew with a worse grasp of the subject were better teachers because they could do this.

 

Behaviours and attitudes matter.

As I said above, black people are killed in disproportionate numbers. 13% of the population, but >20% of those killed. That does not tally with most people’s intuition based on the high profile cases and speaks more to greater inequality, high crime rates and greater interaction with the police than other ethnic groups.

It feels a little bit like you're trying to argue over things we agree on.

NYPD’s budget is $10.9 billion – I’m not a police finance person, but that seems a lot to me.

It is a lot. Digging into the figures the operationg budget (so excluding pensions and other central costs is around $5.6 billion (NYPD operating budget 2020, from here). To put that into context the England and Wales (so excluding Scotland and NI) total policing budget was £13.3 billion (source) for 2018/19. This inlcudes a lot of the national counter terrorism etc policing as well as the 43 local police forces.

E&W population approx 68m, New YOrk population approx 9m.

What that means to me is that this country has a very different policing model the the US. We already 'defund' the police, in that a lot of crime prevention money is spent in health, social care, youth services etc. Not enough is spent, but that prevention money is far better spent than splurging cash on military vehicles, grendade launchers etc.