Hardtails rule? Critique my options...

I've ridden none of them, and don't like hardtails any more... but I vote for the Pipedream anyway 😀

has a springy steel ride that makes me happy

I've both read (WideOpen review iirc) and heard (mate that owns one) that the Pipedream is lacking in this regard. That might help shorten your shortlist a bit more

Recommend what you have - Rå .410. Might be a bit more trail than xc though.

Steel
Made in a (very well equipped) shed in North Yorkshire.
Niche AF.
Can take a 140mm fork.
Not sure about singlespeedable, but probably an option. Ask.
Rides ace.

https://www.ra-bikes.com/410

On one huntsman and loads of change?

That Ra is lovely- might be a bit out of budget though. Conversely, I am not against an On-one, ive had a lot fo fun on an older gas-pipe Inbred!

Interesting what you say about the Pipedream- I expected it to be the funnest- I'm currently watching the Hardtail Party review, so will see what thay say.

Starling Roost? (although its a mullet)

Starling Roost? In stainless steel too, corrr...

Ha! Within seconds of each other - great minds and all that 🙂

Yeah my Sirius S5 is great fun but springy it is not, think it might actually be stiffer then the alu HT it replaced.

I don’t think many steel bikes have the springy feel they used to have - they’ve all got a bit burlier as mtb has changed since the 90’s for a large part of the market.

I would say I’ve found steel does seem to take out some vibration / harshness that alloy can have - but it’s all very frame specific. I’m comparing a Vitus Sentier 27.5 with a Marino custom hardtail also in 27.5.

Some of your frames quoted don’t really match up - the Bird Forge is more comparable to the Pipedream Moxie rather than the Sirius.

Also you’ll find some of your frames are double butted 4130 but some have some fancier pipes in there. Moxie is 4130 - Forge has main pipes in 853 I think.

Personally I’d rule out the P7 - I don’t think they’re that great these days.

Given your requirements I’d be thinking of going with the Pace. It’s got 853 main tubes, sliding dropouts, rack mounts and decent geometry (and you can run it 29er or mullet).

Not mental slack, but equally not steep. Just check the reach on each size before picking one as they’re quite long.

If you’re made of money I’d go and speak to Curtis though!

I bought a steel hardtail couple of years ago for woods in the south and longer rides much as you are referring to. YOur short list looks very similar to what mine was.
I went for the Switch9er over the Sherpa but built the Swich9er light with 140mm 34's and Hope 26mm rims.
I have no regrets. I did wonder whether it would be too long and slack for the local woods and it does need to be going a little faster than my 27.5" 2015 Scout to find the flow but I do love it for this and its lovely on longer rides.

Glad to see I'm not the only one currently distracted by that damn singlespeed article and a resulting search for a steel hardtail 🙂

Following with interest. I currently have a Norco Torrent A1 - nice enough, but not fully embraced it. Don't know what it is, it just feels a bit 'meh' compared to my previous hardtails, all of which were steel (Souls, a BFe, Explosif, Dialled Love/Hate, 456, various Genesis, etc).

Several of your list were also on my list, to which I'd add:

Ragley Big Wig (although geometry isn't the most modern - not necessarily a bad thing - reductions at CRCWiggle)
Stif Squatch

I love my Moxie singlespeed!

It's a lot less harsh than the alloy 27.5 it replaced, and has a nice balance between monster truck front-end feel and lively BMX at the back. A great do everything (that I want to do) bike!

Production Privée Shan GT.

I've got one.

I love it 😍

Not UK, but ticks all your other boxes.

I love my hello Dave.

It's 160mm fork and super slack so probably isn't exactly what you are after.

But

Cheap
Strong
Rides really well
Looks ace ( many people disagree )
Best technical climbing bike I've ridden (cannondale scalpel with full xtr included)
Comfy for 10h bike packing rides
Fastest hardtail I've ridden ( sample size of 6)

Sonder Signal ST?

Takes a 130mm fork, 29in wheels, boost spacing, internal dropper routing

I really liked mine until i finally got hold of a Carbon Transtion Throttle

Its now hanging up in the garage waiting to be sold (Stealth ad!)

Shand  bahookie

Much loveliness and can be run with hub gears, derailleur or single speed with a very neat EBB

Thanks all so far- I'd looked at, then fogotten the Sonder. I have an older Camino, so generally convinced by the quality of that.

Back in the murky past of 26" I had a DMR Switchback followed by a V2 Cotic Soul, not to menition riding a few 90's chromo frames... Even by the advent of the V2 Soul the frames were getting beefire, but there's still a definite ride quality about steel.

In true STW recommend what you have style I can second the Ragley Big Wig. Mine in lollipop colours is a beautiful mash up with orange Hope parts and a Fox 36 140mm with blue decals. It rides beautifully as well.

Can recommend the Roost, think they're all sold except XLs though

Here's mine, looking very mullety due to my lack of photo skills

Having seen the Bird Forge in the flesh it's bloody lovely and I quite fancy one.... But I think for classic SE woodsy singletrack (thinking Chilterns, South downs etc) then shorter travel and lighter is the way. From that list maybe the newer Solaris or the Pace? Maybe add the Fairlight Holt or if your feeling proper flush that Mason hardtail. Keep the forks to 120mm and nice light set of wheels and perfect.

I really like my P7
Wasn't sure at first after riding a full suss for years but definitely wouldn't be without it.
Can ride everything my full suss could and I don't feel battered after adding some carbon bars and going tubeless.

https://flic.kr/p/2oxGhJQ

As someone said I think the springy steel feel was a thing in the 90s, my Nivacrom Sunn certainly had it. But then again it felt very soft and irresponsive. So steel frames began to get stiffer in all directions and heavier and still weren't particularly responsive. And then tyres and wheels became bigger, pressures went down with tubeless and the primary ride massively improved irrespective of frame material which made the steel thing lose its (fairly limited) appeal anyway. So they are now heavy, expensive and still not that stiff laterally yet not particularly comfy but they do look cool.

My P7 is definitely more compliant and comfier than my mates Crush. Even he noticed when he had a ride on it.
Very similar setups only major difference is the frame.

I have a very similar shortlist for a HT, with similar riding aspirations. I've also got Farlight holt on mine:

Not UK, but defo niche.

I've a Ragley BigWig, it's great for a 'throw it about' kind of bike, but I wouldn't say its especially compliant or comfortable (it was better on 2.6/2.5 tyres, now on 2.3's). Quite short chainstays, great for playfulness, but not so much for flex/comfort.

It's also not ideal as a bike-packing bike. No bosses/mounts, and the main triangle (on mine, a Medium) is too small to fit anything much (eg framebag) other than a water bottle.

Cheap fun. But if I had the money, I'd now be looking at something like the Fairlight Holt.

The BB drop on that RA thing looks absurd. I can see how it would work railing berms and the like but pedalling on rocky, stepped and or rutted ground would be a nightmare

I've a Pipedream Sirius 4G, and would love the newer one as I run a short (100mm) fork anyway. I've read a couple of very good reviews of that (one on Bikepacking.com I think, can't remember the other)

If the RA is out of budget, I'm guessing quite a few of the other suggestions will be also? (Fairlight, Shand, Starling)

Fairlight Holt was my thoughts

Sonder Broken Road. It even has sliding dropouts. A mate has one. I’m always a bit jealous

I wanted to scratch the hard tail itch for ages and really fancied the Solaris max but the BFe max sale they had coupled with allowing cycle to work at the sale price had me sold on it. Only ridden it a handful of times but really like it.

https://flic.kr/p/2oxJ58n

Knowing what an absolute hooligan of a bike an Orange Crush is, I can only think a P7 would be awesome. Some days I struggle to believe it's not got any rear suspension.

I've got a SolarisMax and it does anything and everything I ask of it. I don't miss not having rear suspension and i'm never battered at the end of a ride. It's main use is arguably XC but with a fair bit of nonsense thrown in for good measure. I can imagine that the Solaris will be a great bike.

My riding buddy has a P7 and he loves that too and gets up to the same stuff I do.

I only briefly had a Cotic simple that was too small for me and i passed on realtively promnptly, but ive always had a soft spot for a cotic, doubley so if you can get one with 853 written on it.

@hot_fiat
Spot on description.
The crush is an awesome hardtail. Only reason I ended up with the P7 is due to COVID that was all that was left at Winstanleys.

hardtailonly
Full Member
I’ve a Ragley BigWig, it’s great for a ‘throw it about’ kind of bike, but I wouldn’t say its especially compliant or comfortable (it was better on 2.6/2.5 tyres, now on 2.3’s). Quite short chainstays, great for playfulness, but not so much for flex/comfort.

I've got a BigWig too and intentionally not recommended it here. It's a nice play thing but that's about it, especially as its bloomin' heavy in stock form. Not sure 435mm chainstays are considered short on a hardtail though?

I have a BigWig frame sitting in my Wiggle basket (currently reduced to £330, plus the cheeky £20 postage). Was seeing it as a cheapish way to a steel frame that ticks many of my boxes, but the comments above are stopping me hitting the buy button. Well, not the comments specifically as they're only backing up what I expected the frame to be like: heavyish and not particularly compliant/comfy.

I - personally - can't currently justify something with 853 labels which I'd hope would provide lower weight and more compliance (I know there's more to it that that, but it's a starting point).

I'd agree 435mm chainstays isn't short though. Most of the others mentioned above are even shorter.

Very much agree about the lighter/shorter travel options, I'm local to Chilterns riding, so that's the intended terrain. I do want it to be slack/modern geo enough for pop and have fun on trail centre stuff too though.

I'd forgotten about the Holt- a thing of beauty. What travel fork do they take?

Edit- some of these are probably out of budget, true... But there's nothing like browsing a selection of niche hardtails!

Not sure 435mm chainstays are considered short on a hardtail though?

No, you're right, my mistake. SolarisMax is 444mm, but BigWig is about the same as most other options. I'd just assumed it had short chainstays, as it just feels pretty harsh at the rear!

I wont comment on my opinion of how complient/harsh it is - it's my first hardtail in many, many years so anything was going to feel harsh to my poor back!

For southern singletracking the new Cotic Solaris may be the one to try out first if you're after a mix of great geometry and a bit of spring to the ride. Longer forks mean beefier tubes and stiffer frames so I like the 100-120mm design brief of the Solaris. The geo + sizing looks good and the built-in seat bolt + 31.6mm seat tube might clinch it.

I love SS esp. for the winter and I might be tempted to go rigid too so I'd have something else for that.

the "spring" in steel (from a vertical compliance perspective) was purely due to seatpost diameter. Now seatposts have all got fatter to accomodate droppers, steel is just a heavier material to make frames from.

this is a good bit of research that proves it out.. https://www.cyclingabout.com/why-impossible-steel-frames-more-comfortable-than-aluminium/

👆 Yeah, but skinny tubes look nice, so steel = betterer.

the “spring” in steel (from a vertical compliance perspective) was purely due to seatpost diameter. Now seatposts have all got fatter to accomodate droppers, steel is just a heavier material to make frames from.

this is a good bit of research that proves it out.. https://www.cyclingabout.com/why-impossible-steel-frames-more-comfortable-than-aluminium//blockquote >

You're right about vertical flex, there's not much of it in an average bike frame, a bit in the front end and that's about it. But that article is only looking at seated comfort / vertical flex and much of the flex and comfort we feel (imo) when riding some steel road bikes or MTBs hard is the lateral twist, the spring you feel when you load a bike in corners, hit things at odd angles or sprint or climb in a big gear. Steel frames can still have enough flex to feel good for some rider's tastes if they're not overbuilt for big sus forks or roadie sprinter stiffness.

 

That Ra looks lovely but are the chainstays really 410mm? And it’s a full 29er not a mullet?
I’m still riding the last fast forward I picked up for buttons in covid which has sliding dropouts that go from 424 to 444 I think. With them all the way forward you can’t get much tyre in.
It has a habit of eating drive side dropouts though due to the design (and recently the bolt on brake mount cracked too) so although spares are available I’m always vaguely looking at steel hardtails for when it’s time to replace it… that ra is definitely at or near the top of the “if money no object” pile.
Pink moxie looks ace.
But I think I’m the only person I’ve ever ridden with who’s never owned a cotic so I think that might be the answer.

I saw a Bird Forge in the flesh last weekend at Tweedlove and it was really really nice

Ive just built up a Honzo DL and its so much fun

https://flic.kr/p/2ovkqM2

Unsure if its still on display but Bird HQ in Eversley has one of the stainless forges and its utterly gorgeous.

I – personally – can’t currently justify something with 853 labels which I’d hope would provide lower weight and more compliance (I know there’s more to it that that, but it’s a starting point).

I believe it's often just the downtube which is 853 anyway.

Even when they put the 853 sticker on the seat tube.

I'd add Sonder Signal to that list...

Stealth Ad: I happen to be selling a Small...

Hardtails have to be steel. It's the law. Loads around to choose from, can't go wrong with a Moxie or any of the Cotics. Stanton have replaceable drop-outs to change between geared and single speed (I've had a Switchback and a Slackline, both great but preferred the Slackline) if you need to change along the line. I have a BTR now, out of budget (even more so price has risen again) but after trying vartious frames over the years it's the one I've never even considered changing. Unless I go for a 29" version...

https://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/readers-rides-bike-check-james-btr-ranger/

The Solaris Max with 120mm forks is ace for Chilterns riding.
Cotic’s Cascade built up with flat bars and 100mm forks is also ace around here.
The new Solaris looks like it could be the perfect balance between the Solaris Max and the Cascade.

That Ra looks lovely but are the chainstays really 410mm? And it’s a full 29er not a mullet?

I’m out tonight but will measure when I get home. Feels short though. Full 29x2.6.

I think the 410mm is right, but from the geometry table it looks like that's the horizontal length, so not comparable to a lot of other reported numbers and made shorter by the crazy bb drop (Cotic, Stanton, and potentially Pipedream measure the actual length, which is longer obviously)

Kona Honzo steel is 415mm actual length for comparison

👆 Yeah, but skinny tubes look nice, so steel = betterer.

That's as good a reason as any for steel. Maybe that's why I'm not enjoying my alu hardtail - it could all be superficial and in my head...

Coal Pony?
https://www.coalbicycles.com/pony

Singular Swift Mk5 on it's way. Sam was reluctant to leave straight steerers and 27.2mm seattubes due to the increase in stiffness. He's relented on the latest Swift, but it'll be a whippy as it's possible to be while still being compatible with available forks and droppers. Looks nice, SSable. Budget?

Chilterns is Singular country. Drop Sam a line, he might have a demo available.

Sonder Signal ST?

Takes a 130mm fork, 29in wheels, boost spacing, internal dropper routing

I've recently changed my hardtail from a Production Privee Oka to a Sonder Signal ST, and I absolutely love it.

I've had a PP Shan and the Oka and they were both amazing frames but you know, just fancied a change and fancied trying 29er.

PP Oka

Sonder Signal ST

It's a lovely bike to ride, really feels like quality build... quality and my medium feels like spot on geo to me.
I run 150 Revelations on it and it feels good.

I've owned a few ALU hardtails in my time but since my first steel one, a Charge Blender a good few years ago now, I will never ride anything other than steel.
Love the look, love the feel.

It's not a vertical compliance thing as in having actual 'travel'. Of course not. But there is something in the resonance of the material that makes it feel different to ally and heaven forbid, carbon.

But yeah, the Sonder really is a lovely bike. 😊

It’s not a vertical compliance thing as in having actual ‘travel’. Of course not. But there is something in the resonance of the material that makes it feel different to ally and heaven forbid, carbon.

It certainly is a lovely looking bike. My view, and confirmed by the article posted, is that it's 100% placebo. And there is nothing wrong with that. It's the soft stuff that make any difference, tyres and saddle (it used to be the seat post to a tiny extent too) in feel between alu and steel. Carbon will have a tiny damping effect that will amplify the placebo effect.

“My view, and confirmed by the article posted, is that it’s 100% placebo.”

That article is very poor engineering. Humans are heavy, the dynamic forces involved when riding a bike off-road are high, the levers are long (distances from contact patches to BB/pedals & headset/grips) and bikes are really not very rigid in most directions.

The only direction in which they’re pretty rigid is when all loads are applied within the vertical plane, but the only time that happens is when rolling in an absolutely straight line, sitting down, minimal weight on your feet and hands and not pedalling.

Actually RIDE a MTB off-road and there’s a lot of twisting going on, relative to humans’ very sensitive ability to feel tiny changes (even though we’re bad at quantifying this feel).

Pipedream Sirius S[b]6[/b]....?

Sirius S6.
A delivery date for the Sirius S6 (CrMo) is yet to be confirmed so we’re considering offering UK or EU-built options in the interim. Information will be posted soon or contact us to register your interest and to be added to the mailing list.

A titanium version of the Sirius S6 will also be offered and we hope to open an order book in March. Specification and photos will be available from mid-March. Contact us to register your interest and to be added to the mailing list.

I have a Pace RC529 and love it as a mullet, 27 5 x 2.8 on the back really takes some of the sting out.

My view, and confirmed by the article posted, is that it’s 100% placebo.”

Yeah, I mean everyone has a view and many people just don't pick up on certain things I guess, but I can only go by my experience of riding lots of hardtails over the years of aluminium and steel in many different styles of frame. That's better confirmation for me than some article (which is almost entirely based on measuring physical movement, rather than feel, which is obviously less easy to measure/quantify)

Steel feels different to me (and quite a number of other riders). That's all I know.

I'll just drop this here 🙂👍

NBD

But that article is only looking at seated comfort / vertical flex and much of the flex and comfort we feel (imo) when riding some steel road bikes or MTBs hard is the lateral twist, the spring you feel when you load a bike in corners, hit things at odd angles or sprint or climb in a big gear. Steel frames can still have enough flex to feel good for some rider’s tastes if they’re not overbuilt for big sus forks or roadie sprinter stiffness.

Ref 1: your average slow-mo edit on a HT showing lots of sideways wheel and frame flex, twisting if bars etc.

Ref 2: see the compliance.

Just taken delivery of this and I absolutely love it. Can highly recommend a Fairlight Holt. Not UK built, but designed by Fairlight and built with good old fashioned Reynolds 853. The frame is a work of art. As are the Bentley x Fairlight dropouts.

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“That’s better confirmation for me than some article (which is almost entirely based on measuring physical movement, rather than feel, which is obviously less easy to measure/quantify)”

You could do it by attaching strain gauges - because it is physical movement but it’s small amounts at varying frequencies.

The other things that I think make a big difference to how hardtails feel on rougher trails are the rear tyre diameter (obvious but it does make a case for full 29 over mullet) and the bottom bracket height - the lower the BB, the more your feet pull the rear tyre into an obstacle rather than over it. And also chainstay length. Basically a hardtail with a higher BB and longer chainstays will be less harsh through the rough than one with a lower BB and shorter chainstays. If you draw the force vectors involved you can see why.

I like low bottom brackets but there’s definitely a tipping point where they’re less good on a hardtail (especially as you can’t dynamically unweight to lift the BB as on a full-sus). This is less of an issue on the steeps where the fork and front wheel take more of the load.

The Moxie with a 160mm fork hits a really nice balance of geometry (-60mm static BB drop FYI).

Those kind of "everyone else is wrong because science" articles really do boil my piss.

We're all just credulous idiots and we're imagining that steel frames generally tend to be a bit more comfy and muted in their ride feel than aluminum are we? And this one guy knows the truth because he's got a physics degree and some graphs.

OK then.

I have never had a steel bike before the Holt. It generally feels a bit more comfy and muted than any bike I've had before. Basing this on back to back rides, on the same route that I've been riding for years. I'm sold. Steel is real etc.

I really fancy trying a Switch9er ti

But ££££

Might go for the steel version for my next bike, dunno

Another vote for the Cotic BFeMax.
Mine has been awesome! I've done everything on it from BPWs to XC epics.
Lots of mounts on the frame for extra bottle cages and accessories/storage.
It's been my go to bike since building it in January.

"Those kind of “everyone else is wrong because science” articles really do boil my piss."

The thing is, 99% of the time the article is the thing that's wrong because it's BAD science!

To be fair the article on CyclingAbout is only talking about vertical compliance and seated comfort so fair to say a frame's material is worth 'not a lot' there.
What would be wrong is thinking that's all there is to it in terms of general comfort perception or saying that article's points mean that material makes no difference in overall ride feel/quality, or steel is heavier for no reason, etc. He's also talking about touring bikes rather than a singletrack/XC MTB - it's not far off the mark to say much flex anywhere in a loaded 'proper' touring bike frame isn't a good thing.

@Chakaping - I think a good steel HT that’s been made well from the right tube set and meant to be forgiving will be, but a steel hardcore HT for blasting down the rough and hitting jumps and drops probably won’t be very compliant. I expect a BFe or Moxie feels stiffer than a Sherpa as they’re made for different things.

The same can be said for the old On-One Summer Season bikes, they were quite heavy and ‘dead-feeling’ compared to the Charge Blender at the time (which was a great bike)

I’m out tonight but will measure when I get home. Feels short though. Full 29×2.6.

@legometeorology has it. If you measure horizontally between the BB and the rear axle, it’s 410. If you measure along the chainstay, it’s about 415 due to the BB drop.

He’s also talking about touring bikes rather than a singletrack/XC MTB

Fair enough, didn't realise it was so specific. I'm not really interested in steel road bikes myself, carbon is easily the best for my needs. But I've got a steel gravel bike and it definitely brings the same benefits we enjoyed on our old-school steel MTBs.

The same can be said for the old On-One Summer Season bikes, they were quite heavy and ‘dead-feeling’ compared to the Charge Blender at the time (which was a great bike)

I had a Blender briefly. It had an amazingly soft ride for a 4130 frame. Shame it was so horrible to pedal with that slack seat tube.

Yeah, I had the same problem. I loved the Blender, but because it was only in one size it meant that by the time I had the saddle up high enough to actually pedal it anywhere I was right off the back. Awesome fun on the downs, jumps and pump tracks though. Would quite like one now as a spare bike, but they’re like hen’s Terry and those that are for sale are more than I want to pay for a bike.

Would highly recommend the Stif Squatch, wasn't shopping when I had a ride on my mate's and bought one when I got home. Wasn't far off my usual pace on enduro trails and was every bit as happy the next day heading out on an XC ride.

Thought of selling it as my back just cannot take the hardtail at the moment (full sus is bad enough) but it's the one bike I look forward to riding again when I've sorted my back, got fit and lost some weight.

Had a 27.5 Cotic Soul and I find the Stif is a much, much better as an all rounder.

Would quite like one now as a spare bike,

I've owned a lot of bikes and it's one of only two I'd like to still have, just for mucking about on now there are pump tracks all over the place.

That’s exactly why I want one.

I know you've listed the Sherpa but have a look at the Slackline, such a great bike and can do pretty much anything depending how you build it.

I've had a few and still have my gen 3, it's awesome.

@tomhoward, how do you find the ride with the bb that low?