[Closed] Facing redundancy - anyone else?

So it transpires that between Covid19, Brexit and the General Election that the company is facing a downturn in profit and work load in the foreseeable future (although they have £400m waiting to spend on buying out a competitor……).

and

So as this is company wide were on 45 day consultation – I’m in a pool of 3 locally with one of us going.

Sorry to hear that, that’s really crap.

But do you work for a large engineering company? My wife is on the same boat as you and here email is pretty much word for word as you wrote it, including the competitor buyout number...

She works in an office near London Bridge and also in Victoria.  Well, used to

Yes, one of the largest - I'm based in Birmingham.
Crap times - I wouldn't mind if they said they weren't still going ahead with the buyout.

It was great company until we got taken over by the Canadians and expanded at a ridiculous rate.

Yep,finished a large job just before covid came along and despite quoting for a significant amount of work nothing has come through yet. Although nothing has been said yet my boss is also a cycling buddy and the silence is deafening.
As above certain parts of construction are screwed at the moment despite the government saying that there is a £300m fund set aside for replacing unsuitable materials we are struggling.

Yeah same company.  It’s doing my head in not only because of my Mrs position but also because the company they might be buying out is one of my biggest growth customer relationships.

With regard to you employer, there are many holes in the HR offers and process it’s abysmal, they really are feeling thier way along.   Read the details properly and look after your self.    We have interesting situation because my wife is a black part time mother in a Pool of one...

Good luck!

I’m in the same boat. Luckily the redundancy packages are generous and I’m at the right age to take advantage. 25% going at my place.

Redundancies across our whole group world wide. Our company has lost 2 so far. Production staff have been told indirectly they are safe but I'm putting off buying a new anything that doesn't replace something necessary that's beyond economical repair.

Went through this a few years ago. Similar situation - team of three with one to go. I was paid the most as I had been there longest and had joined when my skills were rare and in demand so I was targeted to go. This was obvious from the assessment criteria which ignored certifications, experience etc.

The process was farcical and alienated the entire team so much that the other two guys left within three monthsand will still chat regularly and go out for the occasional beer. The company having lost all the skills in that area lost customers and quite a lot of money as a lot of manufacturer rebates were dependent on having so many qualified staff.

After ten years I left with the statuory minimum redundancy but found a new job at a more local company within weeks. The new job is more rewarding as the company is far more focussed but the company are not great payers and the benefits are pretty poor. I took a pay cut of 35% and in retrospect should have negotiated harder.

I guess in summary the person that they want to go will aready have been chosen. If it is you then you can try to fight it but if they even loosely follow approved policy it will be difficult.

Tough times - do you have any inkling of which of the three may be the fall guy?

@dirkpitt74 My condolences, it's shit. I dont suppose you could disclose if you work for St*nt*c or At**ns (are there other Canadian owned large UK Engineering firms)? I'm just about to agree to join the former following strong assurances that they weren't pursuing redundancies in the UK after applying and interviewing pre Covid. Water sector here though which is a little protected from the worst of recession.

With regard to you employer, there are many holes in the HR offers and process it’s abysmal, they really are feeling thier way along. Read the details properly and look after your self.

@Kryton57 Thanks for the info - I have no idea what I'm looking at etc.
Any chance you can PM me?

Is it a large civils consultancy you work for?

Hope everything turns out ok for you.

If you do not want to leave ask for the selection criteria and procedure in writing via the consultation process.

If you are selected ask for details of your scoring and the justification for the scores.

There are meant to be objective and based on facts, but it is very hard to avoid subjectivity.

Inevitably those involved will have decided in their heads who they want to select to leave and then will have determined the scores to achieve this. This means you can probably pick holes in the scoring where they can not provide objective evidence.

If there is a large number of redundancies they will have had to consult with a works council of employee representatives - if you think the selection looks unfair then raise it with these representatives who can challenge with company at national level.

Recently been through this as both someone scoring a pool and being in a pool that was been scored.

Also the composition of the pool may be suspect, it id meant to start with identifying the redundant role(s) and then determining all the other similar roles where the people with redundant roles could substitute for.

@snownrock - it's neither of those two.

I didn't know there were more, the Canadians are taking over. There is some really sound advice above. Know your rights, challenge and question at every opportunity, don't take it lying down. I hope you get on with your pooled colleagues and this doesn't drive any wedges between you.

Just figured out who this is. I work in a similar sector and weirdly seems to be loads of recruiting going on as well. Also didn't realise they were Canadian! Well assuming it's a 3 letter name with a snazzy red logo that is?

Consultation period officially starts tomorrow. We are due to find out our fate September/October and leave December. 25% of the workforce is going so this is going to be bumpy...
@aberdeenlune, we might work at the same place....

@WildHunter2009 - yep the one in the same.
We 'merged' / got taken over by Genivar who adopted our name as they weren't flavour of the month in Canada due to some dodgy dealings.....

Haha what is it with the dodgy dealings! Didn't SNC get caught up in something as well?

What area you in? Know guys im the Project Management teams in London and also the contam world. I'm a site investigation / soil type.

My sympathies. I work in the supply of construction equipment and lost my job twice in 3 years. I have to say that I’m much happier in the job I’m in now than any of the previous jobs I’ve had. So it can work out well. But it played havoc with my self confidence and peace of mind.

Op, sent you a DM.

Also... I'm pretty sure the guys you might be buying out are recruiting? Maybe apply and show up like a bad penny in a few months time? After a well deserved break I suspect.

I was going to post that.  They’ve just won some significant new business... with a company predominately based in Birmingham...

Condolences, been in a similar position twice in the last 18 months, luckily got back into work the day before lockdown. All I can say is embrace it and try to keep motivated, it's really not easy but things will come right in the end.

Thanks guys - @Kryton57 and @WildHunter2009 I'm in the Building Services section - Electrical Engineer.

Sorry to hear all this must be awful. I have been in a few culls, never got made redundant despite wanting it. We were about to be taken over and I was offered a job at the taking over company, i was quite tempted just to see the look on the face of the survivors who were moving.

Within 12 months of being taken over, despite all the reassurances, we went from 2200 employees to 3.

OP - I've just sent you a PM

Thanks for all the advice so far guys - greatly appreciated.

Sorry to hear that OP

Reading your employers reasoning I'd be inclined it's the usual merger loses + off-shoring to cheaper Labour.

I went through it in 2008 from Banking and again in 2012, although the latter was a hatchet job to screw me out of a big bonus I was owed.

It feels really shit, it's daunting and even being through it twice, I wouldn't fancy it again, but, it wasn't that bad really. Both times I secured a 'get me by' job within a few days.

My firms probably going to end up with 50% redundancies. The main contractor the bulk of our work comes from just announced they're going to mothball their West London division

If you are selected ask for details of your scoring and the justification for the scores.

There are meant to be objective and based on facts, but it is very hard to avoid subjectivity.

Very good advice

So, are they still buying out the competitor company ?

So, are they still buying out the competitor company ?

someone has asked within my wife’s consultation pool how the company can afford this, yet be laying off staff.  The answer given is that these were local contract based decisions affect regional an contract based targets.  Global strategic decisions are separate and different.

id love to see more challenges to that but I don’t work there.

Interesting...

Assuming that the company begins with a W and the competitor with an A...

We Sack People

@iainc - correct.

@hamishthecat - sounds about right at the moment.

The business case for us is crap too - we aren't massively down on our revenue and targets from last year.

It's more about keeping the resource centre in India employed - until the labour costs get to the same as UK costs - which isn't too far away.

It’s more about keeping the resource centre in India employed – until the labour costs get to the same as UK costs – which isn’t too far away.

Although our reasoning is different - loss of work from a major transport organisation in a large city due to thier own lost revenues, this process is described to bridge a gap between now and when recovery happens, which seems far longer for their predictions that most other companies in the same industry.

Sorry to hear this OP. Best of luck.

Sorry to hear your situation. I spent 14 years recruiting for consulting engineers and dealt with several of your colleagues in Scotland.

The good thing to realise is building services engineers are always in demand. It is such an area of skills shortage and as more companies realise that location isnt the barrier it was before there will be a lot of jobs your skills will suit.

Likely you end up with a nice payoff and a new job quickly! Best of luck!!

I've been made redundant a three times. Looking back, it has always made my life better.

Sorry to hear that, OP.

I’ve been made redundant a three times. Looking back, it has always made my life better.

^ This.

My whole dept got made redundant three years ago and at age 47 I had no scooby-doo as to what I could do with my future. Rudderless, scary times I remember, and I was furious with the company I worked for. I fought them very hard through their 'restructuring' process (aka their box-ticking procedure to ensure disgruntled ex-employees didn't litigate) but the outcome was inevitable.

With our meagre redundancy payments a colleague and me decided to start our own two-man business doing what we'd been both been doing for the last 10 years, but this time for ourselves. Turns out to have been a great move. I'm better-off than I've ever been, take holidays when I want, and work pretty-much part-time: loads of free time to do what I want when I want.

I don't know of anyone from my old employer who is worse-off after getting made redundant following that tranche of restructuring.

It's easy to say but things will prob work out for the best for you.

Chin up, etc.

I work for one of the OP's competitors. They must have been sharing info cos the email we got was exactly the same. 45 day consultation with about 350 roles going here. One thing that winds me up about redundancy processes is they can never just be honest and always dress it up in corporate language. Here they're calling it a 'reshape' and are talking about it as if it's a positive thing. And please god save the 'we're here to support you' bollocks with links to mental health websites etc.

The major change from last time it happened back in 2009 is that the pools are now small with 2-6 people in them, whereas last time everyone was in. This must be a new thing in HR I think. It's extremely divisive, if everyone is in then the anxiety is distributed and it feels fairer, but now those in pools are even more aggrieved and have been put in direct competition with friends and colleagues. They couldn't have made it more like the apprentice if they'd tried, and what's even more annoying is that I'm not in a pool. I was quite looking forward to a career break.

We've been told that there's a 20-25% staff reduction across the organisation. No idea how hard my department will be hit yet. Hopefully not much as we were reduced by 50% in 2017.

Mrs F will be out of a job come sometime September to October. No jobs, even in Accounting & Finance at the moment.

Looks like 1 in 6 of us is to be made redundant.
In my department that’s probably 12/13 Of us. Details are currently a bit scarce, but we’ve all been put at risk, there’s no question that some I’ve worked with for years, I may not see again. I also suspect a whole bunch of industrial action that will help no-one

I'm trying to decide at the moment whether to put my hand up and 'express an interest' to take the enhanced redundancy package. Works out at just under 2 years pay but feels a bit early at almost 48. Having been in the oil game for 27 years quite like idea of doing something totally different and rewarding but this is definitely skewed by my lymphoma diagnosis in 2017. Not sure how much more of the bs I can be bothered with.

juanking, sometimes taking control like that can be quite positive, what crushes lots of people is the uncertainty and lack of control. My wife opted for voluntary some years ago, somehow meant she was leaving on her terms. Still a big decision.

Juanking, I’d jump at 2 years pay. Gives you plenty of time to retrain or at least try a few things and make some mistakes before the money runs out.

At 48 I suspect you’d still need to work but 2 years pay gives you time to find something you actually want to do.

Juanking..

similar here. 47, with 24 years in my industry. Seriously debating sticking my hand up for voluntary. I’ve not seen the offer yet but I must be up for two years Salary

problem is I don’t think I’ll get it....there’s a fair amount of dead wood that really should go, I suspect I’m to useful to go on my terms...

Thanks guys, done all my sums and think we could pay off the mortgage and survive until accessing (cashing in my final salary) pension at 55. My wife is to be made redundant next Friday so we are at a decision point really. Tbh, I'm not sure I'd get approval for EOI but part of me would like to carry on working to build up more capital for our daughter but part of me remembers the 4 months of chemotherapy I went through so maybe now is the time to head off and enjoy life.

Mrs F will be out of a job come sometime September to October. No jobs, even in Accounting & Finance at the moment.

I would have thought insolvency would be very busy now, isn't that very similar skill set?

- Martyn - you *may* find that - in order to limit the payouts to around years salary expenditure - the package is capped at one month per year's service *up to 12 years* - I got made redundant, on good terms, but the capped limit did hit me (and only me, which seemed a bit mean). A year's payoff is not to be sniffed at though!

Juanking sounds like you have a good plan there, enjoy it.  Very different circumstances but I enjoyed taking voluntary in 2012, really nice to be able to close the pool I was in as I had some good colleagues in with me. I had another job lined up on the day I told the firm I was taking redundancy.

I was very lucky.  Hoping to dodge redundancy this time round though, luckily I'm seconded into another team at the moment with lots of work on.

To everyone facing it, its nerve wracking but like said before everyone I know who has gone through it has ended up in  better place shortly afterwards. Fingers crossed for you all.

Had my figures through for redundancy today.... not a lot! We gat a months pay in lieu of notice... anyone know if I'm taxed on this months pay and the redundancy? Its particularly galling with Airbus core lads getting offered 4weeks redundancy for each year of service whereas contractors doing exactly the same job alongside them get statutory minimum 😥

Pay in lieu will be taxed, redundancy won't be.

Redundancy pay tax free up to 30k.

I’ve been under redundancy consultation since March for 25% of our entire pilot workforce. Still don’t know any selection criteria. We do know they are only paying statutory redundancy, so after 15 years I would get just over a months pay.

Juanking I am possibly in the same organisation as you. I am going for the voluntary redundancy. I am 55 so can cash in my pension which is not huge (19 years service) but should be enough if I’m careful with it. To me 2 years pay as a golden goodbye and my pension gives me the opportunity to change things we hope to move away and start a new chapter. However I may not get it.

Good luck @aberdeenlune. If your pension is DB(final salary as is mine) with 19 years service you might be pleasantly surprised how much its worth. Not thought about 'reimagining' yourself??

My Dad took early retirement when BT were doing massive redundancies in the 1990s. As well as the redundancy pay, they were offering 18 months pay or 2 years pensionable service added to the DB scheme. As he was over 55 and could claim the pension immediately he took the latter and never regretted it- the fact the mortgage had been paid off over 10 years prior, my sis & I had left home helped.

5% going at out place just announced. I'm not bothered either way to be honest but kind of hoped for another 5 years then retire at 55. Let's see what the next 2 weeks bring.

P-Jay

Sorry to hear that OP

Reading your employers reasoning I’d be inclined it’s the usual merger loses + off-shoring to cheaper Labour.

I went through it in 2008 from Banking and again in 2012, although the latter was a hatchet job to screw me out of a big bonus I was owed.

It feels really shit, it’s daunting and even being through it twice, I wouldn’t fancy it again, but, it wasn’t that bad really. Both times I secured a ‘get me by’ job within a few days.

I've been through similar and then survived a 2015/2016 cull. I'd only been with the company 10 or so months at the time so redundancy didn't seem very interesting.
Retrospectively though I wish I had as its been quarterly redundancies and another "big Employee consultation" since.
Complete poo storm... I'd get through one to go into the next until I just had a complete breakdown from the continual stress.

@dantsw13

dantsw13
Member

Redundancy pay tax free up to 30k.

I’ve been under redundancy consultation since March for 25% of our entire pilot workforce. Still don’t know any selection criteria. We do know they are only paying statutory redundancy, so after 15 years I would get just over a months pay.

I thought statutory redundancy was 1.5 weeks for every year worked if you’re over a certain age and 1 week if you're under it. So for 15 years, minimum of 4 months, maximum of upto 8.

I thought statutory redundancy was 1.5 weeks for every year worked if you’re over a certain age and 1 week if you’re under it. So for 15 years, minimum of 4 months, maximum of upto 8.

You’ll normally be entitled to statutory redundancy pay if you’re an employee and you’ve been working for your current employer for 2 years or more.

You’ll get:

• half a week’s pay for each full year you were under 22
• one week’s pay for each full year you were 22 or older, but under 41
• one and half week’s pay for each full year you were 41 or older

Length of service is capped at 20 years.

If you were made redundant on or after 6 April 2020, your weekly pay is capped at £538 and the maximum statutory redundancy pay you can get is £16,140. If you were made redundant before 6 April 2020, these amounts will be lower.

Daffy, capped at £538 per week, max statutory redundancy is £16140. So someone on a good salary, say £50k would earn £ 960 a week gross, even at 1.5 times £160 per week down. Someone on £70k would be £550 per week down. I await the comments about better paid people being able to afford it. For many unless you are over 41 with a decent length service your pay in lieu is often worth more than statutory redundancy.

Looks like I am but it's going to be a long, slow car crash.

We knew we had a finite lifespan but always assumed we would have a place to go within the same department. Turns out this isn't the case and will be competing with everyone else on site for jobs. My side will be seeing a 50% reduction after shutdown. There is also no scope for development, the latest jobs have all been filled and the chances of any more coming up are slim to nil.

But that's tomorrow. Or at least some indeterminate point 9 to 18 months in the future. As you can imagine morale is just fantastic.

@stumpyjon if you are on that much and haven’t managed to save it is hard to feel to sorry. I’m on an average uk wage and still manage to save a bit not a lot. Having said that, good luck to anyone in the redundancy boat I got done in 2009 and it’s a horrible atmosphere. I’d really think before taking voluntary in this climate.

And there you go tails, what do you know about someone's financial situation, first off people with higher incomes usually have higher outgoings, most people live to or just beyond their means regardless of income level. They may have other financial commitments, school fees, care costs for relatives. They might have had to change jobs more often, not by choice and rather than save they've had to pay back borrowing from previous unemployment. Plus people on higher incomes haven't always been at that level, might have quite recently reached those income levels so haven't been able to save much. At that level you pay a lot of tax but you're pretty much on your when it goes wrong, the state has no interest in helping you get back on your feet or helping you keep a roof over your head whilst you search for work. I've been there several times, I'd love to have savings, maybe if I'd had the luck to spend 25 years with the same employer I would, but having worked in manufacturing I've seen many businesses fold, get outsourced to Eastern Europe or beyond or constantly shrink. Ironically if you do get made redundant often you get the least pay out, those who've stayed in the same place for years get more even though they've had more chance to save.

In a similar boat and only changed to a new company in March, so looks like i will get the grand sum total of bugger all. Nice to know how many others seem to be going through this. No idea what i will do, but things will work out fine!

I also suspect a whole bunch of industrial action that will help no-one

Why won’t it help anyone? I have taken industrial action that has helped plenty.

”Why won’t it help anyone? I have taken industrial action that has helped plenty.”

so have I. In this instance, in my industry I really don’t believe industrial action will help anyone.

I never understand how making things worse between employee and employer at a time of massive stress helps. Amazingly enough the people doing the redundancies are also employees and have been told by the board how many to cull and then be expected to do the dirty work and suck up the aftermath, at board level they'll have no idea how the business will function with fewer people, that's someone else's problem. If you're a good employee they'll be gutted to see you go and would have kept you if they could, if you're not it actually makes it easier to get rid of people who play up. If a business is already in financial difficult taking is only going to make it worse.

If action is taken I can't see many companies turning around and changing their mind, in most cases, especially if a multi national it could entrench their position and potentially shut the whole business down.

But that’s tomorrow. Or at least some indeterminate point 9 to 18 months in the future. As you can imagine morale is just fantastic.

This is now happening at my wife’s/the OP’s employer.   They exposed the selection criteria to the staff with a points based system in an effort to show that it was fair.  So now people are asking that if they were bottom of the table and don’t get made redundant this time around, are they basically on a list for six months later?

Also, the criteria is now there to be abused.  One of the measures was “No. of days sick leave taken” and the questions been asked that now people are aware they are being judged on that, will the make ill informed decisions to come to work - an issue for their health and others.

I think it’s going a bit pear shaped now, even my wife who asked for clarification of why it is her position is being judged to be removed on 1/3rd of her duties hasn’t received the response they are supposed to give by Monday.  She can prove by timesheet, colleague collaboration and emails to her manager she was carrying them out, so a potential for unfair dismissal is looking likely.

The sick days is an interesting one.
Have they said how far back they're going with the sick days?
If you have long term health issues they aren't supposed to include them, or absences that are 4 weeks or over.
Will be interesting to see my score as I had to have time off for a breakdown/depression - 2 months in 2018 and 1 month in 2019. Will see if they stick to the rules......

Well that's 2 out of 3 in our house out of work. Wife first, now my son.

Apprentice for IT company, but has been stuck just handling calls with little training (only in the job 4 months before covid) but he said he was struggling in a performance review, and they've let him go.

the pay was pretty crap so he'd got himsef some hours delivering for Dominoes, but he's been working 6 evenings a week for them, and is actually making more money (per hour) - so at least he has a job, even if part time.

Tip of the iceberg this !

the pay was pretty crap so he’d got himsef some hours delivering for Dominoes, but he’s been working 6 evenings a week for them, and is actually making more money (per hour) – so at least he has a job, even if part time.

Good on him - most kids would see that as beneath them! 👍

Far, far better to be working than festering at home.

Don’t forget folks that “ Statuatory redundancy pay “ is just that.
I.e.. the minimum amount a company must pay to anyone made redundant.

As far as I am aware there is no upper limit on “ enhanced payments “ that may be offered

Yep - me.

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/just-had-that-call-with-my-boss/

I.e.. the minimum amount a company must pay to anyone made redundant.

But the confusion arises when people say Stat redundancy is 1 (or 1.5) weeks pay for every year, ignoring that it is capped and based on full years service too.

Not many companies will offer enhanced rates.

Just had my wife first "meeting".   My god they are rubbish.  Repetitive questions regarding "where has my day to day tasks" gone were met with "other people" until I wrote on a pad for her "ask them if therefore the would have been making redundant even without covid" to which the answer was "yes". I whish I'd recorded it.

But the confusion arises when people say Stat redundancy is 1 (or 1.5) weeks pay for every year, ignoring that it is capped and based on full years service too.

Mrs K gets her "package" tomorrow.  It'll be interesting to see if they have the statutory notice correct because that will push her to 14 years service and increase her redundancy pay.   Based on thier performance so far I bet they give her 30 days notice and have forgotten she was TUPE'd over so carry's more than the 5 years she's been with them

Don’t forget folks that “ Statuatory redundancy pay “ is just that.
I.e.. the minimum amount a company must pay to anyone made redundant.

As far as I am aware there is no upper limit on “ enhanced payments “ that may be offered

Can I ask, are you retired? when did you retire?

Don't take this the wrong way, but your comments read like someone from my mum's generation who had great T&Cs, great pensions, great redundancy options etc. My guess is that most of the current companies who are trying to stave off bankruptcy in this utterly unprecedented world shitstorm aren't going to be as generous as they were to the previous generation.

Apologies in advance, but am interested to know..

Best of luck Kryton.

Last few redundancies I've been involved in have used Bradford formula for sick calculation.