[Closed] Ebike commuting

How about big heavy wheels for some flywheel effect?

If you hit someone you'll be taken to the cleaners if they sue. Esp given the post above about knowing it's illegal.

If you don't like the speed it goes at, why not ride a push bike (or ride a moped)?

If you’re “faster on your gravel bike” then why do need electric assist?

Maybe you need to pop it off more gnarly kerbs?

You can't keep up with traffic on a non assisted bike so that's a silly argument. Whether you are doing 15mph or 20mph makes no difference on busy main roads.

This is a thing. I have an ebike for MTB. Commuting would be a pain, as I keep up that kind of speed without any assist, but my commute is only 8 miles. If I was doing 50 miles, the assist might be welcome.

Committed cyclists have the mentality and ability to use up the boost, and try to push on more. Maybe you need to reign in your effort.

It appears sir bought the wrong tool for the job. Commute Ebikes are about getting to work in your normal clothes and not being sweaty at a reasonable speed and flattening hills whilst sitting less head down arse up with a better vision of the world around you. As mentioned above you will be slower that motorised traffic regardless. If you were already faster than the ebike limit what were you hoping to gain?

I commute ten miles each way on an ebike.
I just ride there. No rush. 15.5 is fine.

If you want to go faster than that, why on earth did you buy an ebike?
Was it new information to you that they were limited or something ?

With the op here, I'd consider an e bike for commuting but there's a longish flattish bit on my commute that'd add a fair bit on to the time if I pedalled with the assist or I'd land up at work a sweaty mess anyway

How long is said flatish bit.

Over 10 miles The difference between 15.5mph and 20 is about half of a shower and change of clothes. Or another way --its 8minutes real time

Door to desk over 12 miles I'm much and such the same. Mostly use the e(cargo)bike when I have errands or need to visit clients offices without being a sweaty mess.

Id have bought a moped if my aim was to do it quicker.

I just chill out and have a more relaxed ride in when commuting on ebike. Doesn't matter that much if you get caught by the lights changing, as you've a motor to get you going again.

Chipping sounds good in theory, but good luck if you have to warranty it at any point - the manufacturers are able to detect it, and you'll be up a very expensive creek with no paddle.

Reason I stopped riding my gravel bike and started driving my van daily was because I took on a rescue dog, so 2.5 - 3 hours of dog walking on top of a physical job plus cycle commuting meant I was getting fatigued.

I was hoping an ebike rolling on 35's would be reasonably fast for the flat bits. It isn't by a long way and the speed difference with traffic is marked and a bit disappointing.

I'm looking to change the firmware to US 32kph (20mph)

What bike is it?

Fair point as the wife's rental haibike speeduro was fast without power and above 15.5mph when I rode it. On 32mm slicks with a Bosch motor. Was very light for an ebike though. When you removed the battery it rode like a regular bike.

Our cargo bike doesn't do that if I'm happy to get sweaty it'll do 17 mph with me riding it to work other wise I just let it sit at 15.5 and chill.

One thing to remember is you'll always be slower than traffic even at 20mph. And given the average car minimum speed seems to be 40mph 15.5-20mph won't make a jot of difference to perceived speed differential.

Trek Conduit, rigid flat barred hybrid. Shimano Steps 6000

I've inverted the stem and binned a few spacers to drop the bars a bit but the issue isn't aero - it's just the general laggy/draggy pedal ability of it above 15mph

Bosch mid drive by any chance? They're draggier above the limit due to their small chain ring and internal gearing. If you ride a mid-drive with a normal sized chain ring the drag above the assistance limit is just normal heavy bike drag. Bosch have fixed this in 2020 motors.

*edit* oh Shimano Steps e6000? I'm surprised it feels that bad above the limit then.

Aero isn't going to make much difference when you're trying to push 20kg along.

Either sit at 15mph and get to work nice and refreshed, or tamper with it and risk the implications of this (driving without a licence, insurance etc), as it will be classed as a moped).

It's been converted here many times, a road biased ebike only really gives you an advantage on the climbs, unless you're happy sitting at 15mph.

How did the limit get set at 15mph anyway?

Must have been with primary regard to road bikes, but clearly not with the intention of making ebikes a practical option for utility transport or it would have been 20ish-mph.

Making them slower than normal bikes is quite odd when you think about it.

Making them slower than normal bikes is quite odd when you think about it.

They didn't. People who ride road bikes at 20mph average are outliers to the general populous.

“Aero isn’t going to make much difference when you’re trying to push 20kg along.”

The extra weight of an ebike makes very little difference to rolling resistance on the flat. Downhill it’s marginally beneficial. Uphill it is more of a problem - but as soon as the gradient is steep enough that you couldn’t pedal a normal bike at more than 15.5mph, that’s when the ebike wins.

Cyclists are obsessed with bike weight but it matters far less to speed than they think. It changes feel and perceived speed much more than it changes actual speed.

I generally take the more hilly routes to work because my ebike is quicker like that.

Ribble and orbea road ebikes are 11 - 12kg

Probably because the moped exists - why would anyone go to the trouble of taking a CBT, getting insurance, tax, etc then buying a moped that can do 30mph maximum, when with a little bit of pedalling, an ebike would do 20mph everywhere with no licence, insurance, tax etc.

Also, there's nothing stopping anyone from riding an ebike at 20mph, 25mph, 30mph.

People seem to forget its not a limit, its an assist limit.

I must be a bit dim but I'm sure ebikes don't have a limiter like some cars. You can pedal past 15mph, surely 20mph is easy?

“They didn’t. People who ride road bikes at 20mph average are outliers to the general populous.”

Exactly. I’m commuting on a 150mm full-sus ebike with massive knobbly tyres. I overtake other cyclists all the time and am rarely overtaken (and only on the flat I think...)

Making them slower than normal bikes is quite odd when you think about it.

Hardly anybody rides consistently above 15mph

“I must be a bit dim but I’m sure ebikes don’t have a limiter like some cars. You can pedal past 15mph, surely 20mph is easy?”

When I take the most direct route to work, according to Strava I seem to average 16-17mph and reach over 30mph. And on the way home it’s around 14-15mph and peaking at over 40mph. It’s more downhill on the way in but has one steep climb, hence the numbers.

The extra weight of an ebike makes very little difference to rolling resistance on the flat.

It apparently does to the OP 😉

Forget trying to pedal above it as the bike is that heavy/laggy you’ll expend more energy than a normal bike.

Is probably a combination of the drag above the motors assistant, and the extra weight. I bet on a light 12-13kg ebike it would be much easier to keep up to speed.

Tbh, it sounds like the OP is annoyed that his fancy new ebike hasn't magically made his commute easy.

As for speed, yeah most 'cyclists' won't do much over 15mph on the flat, but anyone with a bit of fitness should be doing more. I've just checked, and on my 9.5kg gravel bike with 47mm tyres (and carrying a 4-5kg rucksack!) I'm sitting at anywhere between 20-30mph on a flat section of my commute. If there's a nice 5-10mph tailwind, sitting 25-30mph doesn't take that much effort.

“It apparently does to the OP 😉”

It’s not the weight, it’s mostly something else. It’s the same with the tyre weight obsession - it’s hysteresis losses that matter, not the weight. A wheel is a flywheel, the mass doesn’t lose energy it just stored and release it.

I’ve just checked, and on my 9.5kg gravel bike with 47mm tyres (and carrying a 4-5kg rucksack!) I’m sitting at anywhere between 20-30mph on a flat section of my commute. If there’s a nice 5-10mph tailwind, sitting 25-30mph doesn’t take that much effort.

Most people on bikes aren't elite level cyclists like yourself.

I regularly get overtaken on the cycle track to work by ebikes, along the section that I normally do about 30km/h, so some eriders can go fast. I'm sure not all are chipped.

Tbh, it sounds like the OP is annoyed that his fancy new ebike hasn’t magically made his commute easy.

I think you're being dismissive here, but it's not an unreasonable expectation is it? That is kind-of the point of them.

The existing limit means they're only good as town bikes or for short commutes that would be fine on a normal bike IMO. Seems there's a big opportunity to get people out of cars for journeys of 20 miles or so with just a little tweak to the rules.

Don’t forget e-bikes are legal on cycle paths. Would you want to be walking on a path while some hero powers past you at 20mph+ on their e-bike?

Normal bikes are also legal on cycle paths and they can easily reach 20mph.

But you have to be an elite level cyclist to be about to do 20mph on the flat on a regular bike 😉

Reffering to the other ebike thread with the pensioners on hired ebikes, I'm not sure I'd want someone lacking basic bike control to be able to do 20mph everywhere, if you've got the fitness to do 20mph on a regular bike you'll likely have a bit of experience on a bike.

And I hate to say, but getting people to switch from cars to bikes for a 20 mile journey will take more than some pedal assistance, even 20mph's worth.

There is nothing stopping people getting an ebike that goes faster than 15.5

So long as it's type approved , insured and mot , you have undertaken a minimum amount of training and wear the correct safety gear .

Your then restricted to the road and places mopeds can go.....no shared use paths (most cycle paths)

But people feel they should have all the above without the training and the safety aspects.

Electric mopeds can be bought for £1500 upwards, need a CBT at £120 every 2 years, tax is £20 a year, then insurance at a few hundred. The only bit of safety kit that is compulsory is a helmet.

Not really any more cost than an ebike, and zero pedalling required.

I was thinking about getting an ebike for my 40mile round trip commute, but doing the maths it's worked out cheaper to just do my CBT and buy a cheap 125cc scooter. I'm going to do the odd few days on my bike, the rest motorised.

The only problem is the cheap moped has got me looking at bigger bikes so I might end up going down yet another 2 wheel rabbit hole/money pit.

"then insurance at a few hundred"

Try knocking your age down. I'm 25 with no CBT, if I got one today insurance is over a grand for a £3k electric scooter. That's the reason I ride an ebike instead.

If insurance truly cost a few hundred, say £300/yr and city centre parking didn't cost £20/day then I'd probably be all over a scooter.

Jeez, don't go for a £3k electric scooter then. That's mental money.

My scooter only cost £550 so I insured it TPO for £120 a year. No real range anxiety either. Ok I'm 36 not 25, but I wouldn't have thought a cheap 125 scooter would be more than double for TP cover for a 25 year old.

Just checked on a "2012 Piaggio Typhoon 125cc" for £800 on ebay. Third Party Only costs £525/yr. If I age up and become 35 it's £293/yr. That's far more reasonable to the point where I'd actually consider it over an ebike. It could probably be cheaper if I had a garage for overnight parking or owned my home so could put in a ground anchor.

So the question then is what does a 28mph ebike have over a scooter or 15mph ebike? I guess they're cheaper overall than a new electric scooter but there are plenty of examples that aren't (looking at you Stromer, Riese and Muller).

chiefgrooveguru

Member
“It apparently does to the OP 😉”

It’s not the weight, it’s mostly something else. It’s the same with the tyre weight obsession – it’s hysteresis losses that matter, not the weight. A wheel is a flywheel, the mass doesn’t lose energy it just stored and release it.

Hysteresis loss concerns rolling resistance, NOT acceleration.

Your premise assumes that all energy put into the wheel is recovered as momentum or lost as rolling resistance - it’s not, braking for one will account for lots of loss, especially on a MTB. A light wheel and tyre is faster to accelerate and to maintain speed as less energy is required to keep spinning that mass around/up.

"Your premise assumes that all energy put into the wheel is recovered as momentum or lost as rolling resistance – it’s not, braking for one will account for lots of loss, especially on a MTB. A light wheel and tyre is faster to accelerate and to maintain speed as less energy is required to keep spinning that mass around/up."

A lighter wheel and tyre is faster to accelerate - but the difference is marginal when you have a motor to help out, an ebike accelerates very fast if you have strong legs. Once up to speed the wheel mass is immaterial until you use the brakes. But once you've braked the motor gets you most of the way up to speed again.

Going back to this: "braking for one will account for lots of loss, especially on a MTB"

Braking for one, for sure. So what is two? Or three?

Gradient
Terrain
conditions
undulation
turning

I've no idea why your fixating on this so much Chief

On the flat or down a start gate Ebikes don't actually accelerate as well as non Ebikes for me. in speed it's close but I wouldn't actually call it marginal. Direct response Vs human input plus a non constant assist means their acceleration traits are quite different.

I did look into 125cc scooters/learner bikes but I know from commuting on an 80cc Piaggio years ago that although they are a nippy quick choice they are roughly the same amount as I paid for the Trek (£1299) but need additional dedicated clothing as you are sat still into freezing winter wind blast. The Trek was also 0% over to 2 years which swayed the man maths.
Im going to be changing the 'region code' in the next few days to the USA market setting (32kph/20mph) which I think is all the extra I'm looking for. The motor should be okay as there is no physical difference between the markets other than software selection.

Bit daft going for a non-pedal solution, when what's required is the e-assistance to effectively lower the commute so it's a sensible distance, ie give you assistance up to higher speed.

I know what the rules are, but the rules are wrong. A way should have been found for people to easily and cheaply prove their safety with an e-CBT or whatever and insure themselves for e-assistance up to 20-25mph. No issues with not being able to go on bridleways.

I've looked at this a few times for my 20 mile commute, it just doesn't work as a replacement for the car as it's too far to do more than twice a week really and I need to get there quickly so I can be home when the kids are. It's fine now, I just work form home most days instead.

It's part of a wider lack of foresight around policy in general. It's pretty obvious that the best way to get electric transport off the ground is to create some sort of new category of vehicle, sub 200kg, 4 wheels, up to 40mph, driven on a car license, £3-5k. Or whatever the right details are. Get single people in cars out of them and into small nippy light things because they make sense instead of giving Nissan £10k to pay for hundreds of kilos of batteries in a Leaf. Or the Renault Twizzy for £7k.

A way should have been found for people to easily and cheaply prove their safety with an e-CBT or whatever and insure themselves for e-assistance up to 20-25mph.

Can't they? Of course, they'd have to buy equipment designed, tested and rated for that purpose in the country of use, rather than repurpose lower rated equipment because "they know best" and laws and standards aren't for them. They need to keep their number plate on, and stay off all these shared pedestrian/cycle lanes that are popping up, for obvious reasons.

Oh the ironing.

Some people could Google s-pedelec

Yes, you can do it now, but not in a way that isn't disproportionately expensive or difficult. You can see this as it would obviously be a good solution for lots of people, yet next to no one has done it.

Maybe things have changed, but when I looked into it 18 months ago I couldn't find a local garage that would MOT a s-pedelec for me, so I stopped there. It's obvious that the MOT requirements shouldn't be the same as for a car and that they could be done a separate test where a bike shop essentially gives it a once over.

What's the state of play with insurance? Anyone insured an s-pedelec? Does anyone do a car policy or a house policy that covers these? That would be a way to sort that side of it easily and cheaply.

Does anyone really think having to put a number plate on and ride only on the roads is an issue?

I'm arguing from the point of view that all levels of Government seem to agree that driving cars is a bad thing, yet when there's a fairly straightforward approach to getting people out of cars available, the options end up being so limited or such a pain in the arse that virtually nobody is e-commuting. It's a massive missed opportunity.

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-riding-an-s-pedelec-in-the-uk-1637

This is basically saying the same thing.

The problem is that with a bike, your experience and skill generally increases with your ability to go faster. To me this is a very good reason for ebikes to be limited as they are.

If you delimit it and get caught you'd be breaking all sorts of laws (Does your license cover a moped? Are you wearing a motorcycle crash helmet? No insurance, unregistered vehicle, no MOT - doesn't look good does it?) and could easily lose your driving license etc. If that's fine for you then fill your boots. If not, have a look at the tyres and potentially your position on it, and go faster as you get fitter. Or sit and chill at 15.5mph.

Im going to be changing the ‘region code’ in the next few days to the USA market setting (32kph/20mph) which I think is all the extra I’m looking for. The motor should be okay as there is no physical difference between the markets other than software selection.

20mph sounds about right Rusty, if that works with the motor. I mean there's the rules of the road, and then there's your own safety - you'd hope those two things are generally congruent but sometimes they're not. Accelerating a bike on the commute past 15 mph and have it suddenly get way harder sounds like a ridiculous (and unsafe) state of affairs. For urban / suburban riding a fast commute is a safe commute and you have to be able to move the bike around the road when needed.

For urban / suburban riding a fast commute is a safe commute and you have to be able to move the bike around the road when needed.

I've heard something like that before.

I'm sure it was in reference to making progress and accelerating out of trouble.

Don't think so trail_rat. Bimble into work at 12 mph then next day get your head down and go in at 20. Notice anything different? The difference in safety, being part of the traffic, and how car drivers treat you is completely obvious.

Don’t think so trail_rat. Bimble into work at 12 mph then next day get your head down and go in at 20. Notice anything different? The difference in safety, being part of the traffic, and how car drivers treat you is completely obvious

You're absolutely right, everyone on situp and begs pootling along at 8mph here is given a huge berth and treated like a vulnerable road user. Every arse up head down cyclist, me included, is pretty much treated with less concern than the pheasants.

I'd also love to know where you're all commuting at 20mph and up, in a morning I can't manage much over 16mph average in the car coming into work so I'm pretty pleased with 15ish over the same on the bike with luggage. (1mi split speeds between 8 and 25mph variously, peak of 39mph, I'm not quick but I'm certainly not slow) FWIW my record commute is an average 22mph going home on the bike, 28 mins door to door, I've never managed sub 30 in the car.

Been tempted by an Ebike to avoid the sweatiness. Not so fussed on speed.

Generally prefer the motorbike though as I'm not being over taken all the time. Route to work really isn't pleasant.

Well on the odd occasion I take my shutter of a 3 speed shopper to town (ie I'm leaving it locked up all day) i find I get significantly fewer close passes , I rarely get squeezed at the traffic islands and people don't misjudge my speed at junctions. I'm doing the speed they perceive a bike should be doing.

When I'm on my road bike those are many times in the same journey occurances and I have to ride on my toes and be watching for every false move.

Best thing that happened to my commute was I moved offices and now have an entirely traffic free journey on shared paths bar 1 mile from my house to the village.

I’d also love to know where you’re all commuting at 20mph and up

This. Mine is a rolling 12 miler, my PB is 40 minutes (18mph), and that was a bit of a cheat as I'd left early to catch quiet roads and was on my fast bike. 14.5 mph is about average and that's not hanging around.

I used to commute Rochdale to Manchester, it's an 800ft descent over 10 miles, so 20 was fairly easy if you set off early and got lucky with the traffic lights. Was a decent jaunt straight out of bed, then I'd go home via Saddleworth for a proper spin.

My average over 10 miles on the commute is 14mph, about 10-12mph for the first half and 20mph average for the 2nd half.

Tried pedalling with the system off tonight and there is huge amounts of drag- I initially thought it decoupled well as the cranks spin backwards freely but this isnt the same as applying pedalling motion through the motor.
It's 1st generation Steps 6000.

That sounds a bit shit.

The Bosch on the haibike doesn't suffer this and neither does the bafang. Not tried steps my self.

But I have experianced the drag on the old hub motors it's horrible like pedaling through treacle

“Tried pedalling with the system off tonight and there is huge amounts of drag”

That is annoying! My 2019 Levo pedals as well as my old non-E full-sus on the flat, so my commuting times have got shorter up all the hills and no longer anywhere else.

The big advantage in commuting on one for me is in strong headwinds and/or tired brain. So many times on a commute home previously, after a crappy day, I’ve wanted to give my bike away.

Now if it’s windy I take my ebike, knowing if it’s blowing a hoolie at home time I can just whack the assistance up and just potter home at leisure. Generally I leave it in Eco, but it’s nice knowing I can just turn a pedal if I’m not feeling it with more assist.

The cut off at 16mph really bothered me at first, but in reality on the flat it’s not much different to my Smuggler now I’m used to it: it sits happily at 18-19mph without assistance. It’s only on an incline where I really feel it, but then up a hill at 16mph is more than I’d be doing on a normal bike most of the time.

I’ve ridden in to work every day apart from two since 1st June (50/50 normal/ebike). I wasn’t more than three times a week previously.

How did the limit get set at 15mph anyway?

Must have been with primary regard to road bikes, but clearly not with the intention of making ebikes a practical option for utility transport or it would have been 20ish-mph.

Type approval for pedelecs is set by EU legislation, so it's 20 km/h. The thinking behind that seems to be that they'll primarily be used in urban areas, where average traffic speeds are sloooooow - barely 10mph in some cities.

There is actually a higher category, S-pedelecs, which has been adopted by some countries including Switzerland, Belgium and Czechoslovakia. The Netherlands hasn't, probably because it's allowed mopeds on cycle paths for a number of years and it's one of the main sources of complaints from cyclists, who actually have a bit of lobbying power. And here in the UK, where a lot of cycling infrastructure is also shared use, it's easy to see why it hasn't been taken up.

https://www.eta.co.uk/2017/01/17/fast-electric-bicycle-are-coming-new-laws-for-speed-pedelecs/

I’ve just checked, and on my 9.5kg gravel bike with 47mm tyres (and carrying a 4-5kg rucksack!) I’m sitting at anywhere between 20-30mph on a flat section of my commute.

I've not been keeping up to date with who is and isn't one lately, but this sounds like you should be inducted into the ranks of the Big Hitters.

“Type approval for pedelecs is set by EU legislation, so it’s 20 km/h.“

It’s 25 km/h actually, hence about 15.5 mph.

Yep, my bad.

I’ve not been keeping up to date with who is and isn’t one lately, but this sounds like you should be inducted into the ranks of the Big Hitters.

Calm down, there's people that think anyone can push an MTB along the flat at 25mph or so and hit over 30 for short periods of time - which I reckon most would struggle with on a derestricted eMTB to be honest!

I’ve not been keeping up to date with who is and isn’t one lately, but this sounds like you should be inducted into the ranks of the Big Hitters.

I didn't realise being able to sit at 20mph on what is basically a road bike was that big a deal tbh, hell I can do that for (very) short periods on an Mtb. 30mph with a decent tail wind and possibly a percent or two gradient certainly isn't remarkable.

The rented Shimano PC adaptor turned up today plus £16 for the unlocking software license. As mine is a 1st gen Steps motor the only way to change anything is to alter the wheel size unlike the newer 8000. Bit of fettling tonight and I'm now riding a 700c front wheel with a BMX wheel on the rear! (21mph).
Will report back tomoz evening.

Just hope that you don't need the warranty 🙂

My friend Bob who looks nothing like me in a wig says that it's liberating to use bus and cycle lanes where appropriate, then when they inevitably disappear for stretches of a 30mph dual carriageway (wtf city planners?) to be able to take the lane and keep pace with traffic. Bob's bike likes to cruise at 20mph and it's a very enjoyable speed but not quite enough to take the lane. Bob thinks you will enjoy your Shimano steps with a little extra on top. Just keep your gears and speed low when around pedestrians, generally don't be a menace.

My driving to work is taking me around 35minutes without traffic. 20 miles.

My commuting on the bike is anything between 55minutes and 1hour and 15 minutes. Smidge below 18 miles. Weather/wind/feel of the day dependent.

If I'll be able to drop between 10 and 20 minutes from riding I'll be more than happy. With 15.5 mph restriction can't see this happening any time soon. Consistent average of 20 mph would be required...

Cheers!
I.

I hadn't seen those Bafang motor kits on eBay until just now, but they look like just the job. 750 bonus Watts for your private track to work.

You're in the same position as me, I have an entire second car for the 2-3 days a week I need to go into the office, I'd bike it if I could cut the journey time rather than just arriving less tired.

This morning's commute was FAR BETTER, I'm only the odd mph over the 15.5mph and using gearing/torque/cadance to control speed but you don't have the constant on/off/on/off from the standard restricted motor.

I was considering a Bafang750w but having ridden mine unrestricted the standard 250w is more than enough.

1 month update.
Have been using it every day since I hacked the 'wheel diameter' via software to give me a ~23mph cut off limit.

In the mornings my commute is far easier for the same speed as my previous gravel commuting bike and n the evenings when its busier I've found my commuting route has gravitated towards the hillier back roads route and away from traffic as climbing isn't an issue.
The speed difference with traffic is reduced so i don't feel as vulnerable on some of the tight busy sections of my route.

As a commuting tool its perfect with its built in lights and full mudguards. Might change to 650c wheels and bigger tyres at some point as its a bit harsh with 700c/35c's and aluminium forks and frame.

I would agree for a skilled rider 20 mph is better and probably safer - but for the average cyclist out there - 10 mph is fast enough given how unskilled many of them are. Laws have to be set for all.