[Closed] Cotic Jeht and shock options

I have a Cane Creek DB Air inline on my rocket and I would describe it as totally fine. Fit and forget but does require more air than you think. Personally I would upgrade to the Kitsuma air piggyback I had the old piggyback Canecreek and it was bloody amazing.

I ordered one yesterday - I went for the Kitsuma option after watching a few videos and reading some reviews - in fact choosing the colour was more difficult! I went for Afterburner in the end.

Sorry to hijack this post but I'm thinking about buying 1 as well, my question is , wots the difference between the English frame and the Taiwanese frame, can u tell the difference

The English one will be welded by extremely skilled welders in England, and the Taiwanese one welded by extremely skilled welders in Taiwan.
Up to you if the difference is worth the premium.

Isn't it ltd edition of 30 for the English frames

The Northern Irish and Scottish guys that made them might have a problem with being called English.

OP, seeing as it's your first full sus, I would suggest that the Rockshox will be more than capable as well have fewer adjustments and being cheaper. I think Cane Creek are more reliable than they used to be but have a lot more adjustments so will require more work to hit the sweet spot.

Wait you loose the warranty on the frame if you put a different shock on it?! So long as it's the same size and there's no piggyback clearance issues etc how can they make that claim? Maybe if you put a coil shock on a linear frame you could transmit more shock to the frame on a huge hit, but I don't see how fitting say a dpx2 rather than the offered x2 would cause any issues at all.

I was looking at the jeht but that's not cool if it limits futureproofing or the option to try something different.

I don't know why the warranty on the frame should be void for putting another shock on it but I like the bike and they're the rules at the bottom of the order page so I guess there's not a lot that I can do. The warranty is 5 years so after that there's no arm changing it.

that’s not cool

Not cool indeed.

Makes it look like they lack confidence in their product and understanding of their customers, who'll tend to be more experienced riders who like to mix and match their parts, upgrade bits etc.

No experience of the specific shock but my experience with Cotic is well thought out specs and I don't think they'd sell you a shock that wasn't really good enough. I went for the cheaper X-Fusion option with my FlareMax and I'm happy with it, the advice at the time was the Cane Creek was better for people that knew what they wanted from the shock and were happy to spend time on the setup getting it right.

Though I'm curious why they've stopped using X-Fusion, supply issues or is the lower end Rockshox stuff a better option now?

That's a bizarre warranty policy.

My Cane Creek was excellent, no issues, particularly like the way their Climb Switch slows the rebound and still absorbs bumps unlike a full lockout. Actually got it to replace a Deluxe which wasn't good at all, failed rebound being the final straw.

Haven't ridden or even seen any reviews of the CC kitsuma, but the old dbair is my favourite air shock so I'd be putting my hand in my pocket for one of them.

X fusion suspension being the only "budget" option was one of the things that stopped me buying a Flaremax (that and I really want to demo a bike before parting with my cash). I have no doubt that the X fusion stuff performs just fine - but reported issues with trouble getting spares and more limited options of places that can service them (I assumed due to having trouble getting parts) really put me off.

Coincidentally I've got a CC DBIL on my current (not Cotic) bike - and I love it. I'm very much a mediocre rider but even I could tell the difference when I put the CC on in place of my Rockshox.
I think it's worth the extra £100 - but equally the RS will perform fine I'm sure.

Just waiting for the demos to start again so I can try out the Jeht...

My guess is that the using another shock even with the same stroke could have a slightly different length and that because they can't guarantee the repeatability of the frame it could then clash in some way.

Thats the only reason I can think of. Or the coil shock and it'll be far too linear for the frame and bend it?

Though I’m curious why they’ve stopped using X-Fusion, supply issues or is the lower end Rockshox stuff a better option now?

Just supply issues. The xfusion shocks were great fit and forget shocks.

If it was me, I’d get the big can Kitsuma… it’s cheap at that upgrade price… I can’t see it staying at that price.

The shock/warranty thing is because all shocks sold with the frames are specced, tuned, and ridden by Cy and proven to work. All sorts of weird and wonderful after market options out there that might not be suitable. All sorts of problems with coils binding and shocks tuned for other suspension systems. Experiment away… but frame suppliers can’t be expected to carry the can for you… doubt very much that Cotic are the only brand to be wary with this.

andybrad
Full Member

My guess is that the using another shock even with the same stroke could have a slightly different length and that because they can’t guarantee the repeatability of the frame it could then clash in some way.

Yep, I'd assume the same. FWIW I had a bunch of different shocks in my Hemlock and they never worried about that with warranty but it's easy to see why they'd worry about people sticking random non-tested shocks in and smashing hard parts

Original inline was a bit iffy for reliability, new one is redesigned and has been pretty faultless as far as I can tell (based on personal and Internet experience with both versions). Wouldn't hesitate to reccomend.

Interesting, when I got my flaremax the shock upgrade option was a cane creek. But now that's standard people are questioning whether it's good enough.

I can understand the point kelvin is making above, but I've never heard of another manufacturer with a similar policy.

It does come across badly that something as normal using a Fox shock would invalidate a warranty, especially as Cotic are the kind of company that will probably look after you regardless.

I can understand a coil shock causing an issue on a linear frame, but why no other air shocks?

Yes tunes can be different but when you spec the most adjustable shock on the market someone could still set it up to have an awful tune that blows straight through the travel and transmits a ton of force to the frame, and that would be fine?

I've never heard of another manufacturer doing that and I've warrantied two frames over the years that didn't have the original shock on them.

Cotic brought in the shock restriction with the gen 3 rocketmax, it's not a new thing for them.

It does come across badly that something as normal using a Fox shock would invalidate a warranty

Which Fox shock? Some have been specced, tuned, tested and supplied with other Cotic models. There are tuned Fox shocks in stock and going out on bikes now. Contact Cotic if you want them to sort a specific Fox to supply with the Jeht. If enough people asked, I’m sure it could be sorted.

And other manufactures have definitely had to specify supplied or approved shocks for continued warranty. I remember Specialized doing so for a few frames.

Wouldn't that be because Specialized use proprietary shocks and mounts on some models or because models using a yoke/clevis design put additional forces on the shocks so some aren't strong enough? I can't see what the warranty issue would be if I wanted to put a factory tuned DVO Topaz (for example) on a Cotic? Obviously in the correct length, stroke and having checked for frame clearance issues. Can't really see shock tune being an issue when it's supplied with a super adjustable Cane Creek, unless it voids the warranty to change the settings as well?

Better warranty wording would be "Frame damage resulting from use of aftermarket shocks will not be covered" rather than a blanket voiding if a different shock is used.

Surely a steel frame will be strong enough for the additional forces put on it by aftermarket shocks. Bike looks great so I guess it's worth sticking with it.

Surely a steel frame will be strong enough for the additional forces put on it by aftermarket shocks.

Unless you do something seriously stupid, a different shock won't make any real difference to the forces on the frame. If you fit the wrong size and the linkages bottom out, you might break it, but fitting the same sized Fox shock instead of a Rockshox will make zero difference to the frame durability. With any air shock, you can run the pressure too low and bottom it out, especially if it has tokens fitted as standard and you remove them to make it more linear. Having the suspension set up badly (or launching off big jumps with a flat landing) is going to make much more difference than fitting a (correctly sized) shock with the wrong tune.

OP, seeing as it’s your first full sus, I would suggest that the Rockshox will be more than capable as well have fewer adjustments and being cheaper. I think Cane Creek are more reliable than they used to be but have a lot more adjustments so will require more work to hit the sweet spot.

Disagree.

I've had my Flaremax with the CC shock for 2.5 years (+3,000m). Only had it serviced at 2 years old, and no issues whatsoever.

Setup is easy, you've only to RTFM and then find a suitable 'track' to fiddle with the finer details. The bike/frame/shock has a bottomless feel to it, although I use the full travel, I can't feel any bottom-out plus the climb switch works really well.

kelvin

Which Fox shock? Some have been specced, tuned, tested and supplied with other Cotic models. There are tuned Fox shocks in stock and going out on bikes now. Contact Cotic if you want them to sort a specific Fox to supply with the Jeht. If enough people asked, I’m sure it could be sorted.

Thats kind of my point. Fox shocks work fine, but if I buy the frame with RockShox and upgrade to a Fox later, the wannanty is gone. If it was worded as "using a shock not approved for the frame" fair enough.

It's just unnecessary control freakery, init

I’m putting 2 and 2 together here but wasn’t the grumblings about a couple LSG frames getting broken a while back (I seem to remember for shade being slung on Stanton owners FB when I was on it a couple years ago)?

I’m just thinking the two (ha!) might be related?

Unless you do something seriously stupid

How do you draw the line for “seriously stupid”?

a different shock won’t make any real difference to the forces on the frame.

One for the armchair engineers of the forum. I can’t help you from here on I’m afraid. All I can say is that I’ve been told that experimenting with different shocks is at the owners risk, not something covered by the warranty. If anyone wants a different shock fitted to a Jeht than the 3 already tested and offered, email Cotic and talk direct to an engineer.

How do you draw the line for “seriously stupid”?

In this case, a shock that is a different size and results in the suspension not being able to move through the full range of travel without something bottoming would be the obvious thing.

If the suspension movement is limited by the shock travel and the bike is set up so that the shock isn't bottoming out hard, then the stresses on the frame won't vary much regardless of how the shock is tuned. The factory fitted shocks have a climbing mode that (I assume) is a lockout with blowoff valve. Leaving that engaged when you launch down a descent (which I'm sure I'm not the only person to have done) will stress the frame much more than fitting a correctly sized Fox shock that isn't custom valved for the frame. Any properly designed bike should be able to survive the rider leaving the shock locked out by mistake, so the idea that fitting a different shock tune is going to overstress the frame is ridiculous.

Warranties are legal documents intended to protect the manufacturer from idiot users. Safest thing for manufacturers is to specify that any change at all will void the warranty, then use commonsense in actually deciding. Fitting the exact same sized Fox shock would technically void the warranty. If a dropout broke because of a faulty weld, I would expect the manufacturer to use some commonsense and fix it because the failure is unrelated to the shock. If somebody stuck an 8" travel double-crown fork on a lightweight XC frame and launched themselves down the side of a volcano, ripping the headtube off would be fairly predictable. A warranty claim for that would rightfully be rejected.

DB inline is a great shock - would just keep it rather than spending extra on the kitsuma

kelvin
Full Member

How do you draw the line for “seriously stupid”?

For me, bashing hard parts- wrong length or wrong shape- and that'd surprise people with how easy it is. It's stupid but it's easy to do stupid I don't know how much leeway there is on the modern cotics, but a 4mm difference in length in a Hemlock was enough to make the seatstay hit the seat tube at full compression (literally just putting offset spacers in the stock shock, didn't even need a shock swap). I guess because Cy is an actual engineer and makes things really fit whereas most bikes they just sort of fit, there might be less leeway than on some?

And then add in owner brains, which think thoughts and have read things on the internet like "You should use all your travel once a ride" and "Ah but it's fine because I only do it on the biggest hits (ie, when it happens, it's a hammer blow not a tap), "I am so rad, I totally bottomed it out on that drop", and "Well it was expensive so I'll leave it in anyway", and suddenly a frame designed for controlled forces is dealing with something else entirely.

(orange 224 evos earned a bad rep for cracking shock mounts and fair enough, it was partly because of the horrible shock rate in the end travel but it was also largely- mostly? Because the bike had so much adjustment available that people could set them up so that the shock bottomed out super hard, with just an allen key and a spanner But Orange had to deal with all that owner error)

I suspect that Cotic owners are probably more likely to fanny about with shocks than, say, Specialized owners, too.

Anyone know what the difference in price difference will be between a Scottish made one and a Far Eastern one?

£300

But it’ll soon be irrelevant… UK ones nearly all taken. Be quick if you want one.

£300

But it’ll soon be irrelevant… UK ones nearly all taken. Be quick if you want one

Cheers , Kelvin ...
I would love one but not sure that for a 60 year old, it will do anything the flare max can’t. So on this occasion the last one or two xl in Matt teal will have to go to someone else.

Surely a steel frame will be strong enough for the additional forces put on it by aftermarket shocks.

If it's properly engineered it will be as strong as it needs to be (+a wee margin) for a controlled set of circumstances. Those circumstances being one of the things that Cy will have had to define when designing the frame as being a reasonable worst case scenario. It certainly won't be "anythingproof" just beacuse its steel, as we'd all complain about the weight of having a frame built from 1/4" wall pipe. (a parallel would be Colin Chapman's desire to have his Lotus racing cars fall to pieces just past the finishing line as lasting any longer would mean they were overbuilt)

In this case he knows that the inherent characteristics of certain shocks will spread peak loads over time enough to keep the frame intact. He doesn't *know* that about others. After all it won't be the owners going "I set my aftermarket shock up badly for my riding style" - it'll be "waaah my Cotic frame broke" with pics all over SM. Whether its a warrantyable issue or not, it's still resources (the original frame, time, labour) down the drain, not to mention pissed off customers.

To answer the original Q - I'd go with the DBIL (haven't ridden a kitsuma) - the one on my RocketMax feels pretty good, and neither of the pair in our household have given problems. The only downside is they do take a bit of setting up. Shocks are one of those bits that it always seems to be cheaper to buy the best at the beginning rather than buy the cheapest and try to upgrade at full RRP later. If I was going to skimp on a build it would be on finishing kit and drivetrain (and brakes too, as Deores punch WELL above their ££). Spend the cash on the best frame/shock, fork and wheels you can.

Relieved to see the large UK frames are now all gone.

I was getting twitchy!

Thanks for all the advice, I feel a lot more comfortable with the DB IL now so will refrain from ringing up cotic in the morning. I wasn't really expecting to be buying a bike this weekend so will need to put some time into spec-ing the rest of the build now... and count some pennies

In this case he knows that the inherent characteristics of certain shocks will spread peak loads over time enough to keep the frame intact. He doesn’t *know* that about others.

He specced a shock with a climbing mode that is presumably a lockout with blowoff valve. Forgetting to unlock that when you start a descent will make much more difference to peak loads than a shock with a different tune. This idea that the shock characteristics will make any appreciable difference to loads on the frame is utter nonsense.

Thanks. Looks like a great UK orientated bike.

that is presumably a lockout with blowoff valve

It’s not. Adds more LSC, but still plenty active.

They also spec a super deluxe with a much more traditional lockout so the point still stands..

And when the db shocks are so adjustable you can pretty much set it up any way you like without playing around with internal tunes. I'm sure you could set up the db air to ride much much worse and transmit a more force to the frame than say a fox dpx2 that doesn't quite have the perfect tune for example.

The above might be true, but the bikes/frames are shipped with the ‘standard Cotic tune’ are they not?

Anybody can **** up a shock’s settings but it will also (probably) ride like a bag of shite.

I bought a (non-Cotic) frame that had a completely mismatched shock supplied as standard that I ended up getting an upgrade off the importer for as rebound was either really slllloooowww or buckeroo. Over one click. Pretty much unridable.

Whilst Cotic’s policy seems OTT maybe they have (good engineering) reasons for it?

And when the db shocks are so adjustable you can pretty much set it up any way you like without playing around with internal tunes. I’m sure you could set up the db air to ride much much worse and transmit a more force to the frame than say a fox dpx2 that doesn’t quite have the perfect tune for example.

Exactly. A badly set up standard shock will have the same effect as a non-standard shock that isn't tuned for the frame. If that's enough to break the frame, it is severely under-engineered.

Whilst Cotic’s policy seems OTT maybe they have (good engineering) reasons for it?

The reasons have nothing to do with engineering. They're covering themselves legally against users who do stupid things like fitting the wrong sized shock or massively overforking the bike and jumping off silly stuff. Lawyers' advice is always to just say that everything is prohibited, then discretely make commonsensical exceptions later.

The reasons have nothing to do with engineering.

We can debate the semantics of that (there’s good engineering reasons to try and stop stupidity!) But I don’t think we are in disagreement.

And everybody knows that Cotic have diabolical customer service/ warranty and weasel out of everything... 🤣😜🤪

Likewise I’d be surprised, if you really wanted to swap the shock and you phoned them up to discuss it, that an amicable solution couldn’t be reached...

Isn’t this a shock manufacturer thing as opposed to a Cotic? I think I read somewhere recently that (maybe) fox wouldn’t warranty their shock if used on certain suspension designs

Just ring Cotic direct and ask them, they don't bite!

Isn’t this a shock manufacturer thing as opposed to a Cotic? I think I read somewhere recently that (maybe) fox wouldn’t warranty their shock if used on certain suspension designs

That's nothing to do with Cotic's warranty on the frame.

If you fit an legitimately purchased aftermarket Fox shock to a frame, the warranty on the shock is between you and Fox. My guess would be that Fox won't warranty a grey-market shock that has been sold to a frame builder but then sold (without a frame) and fitted to a different frame.

Think they had a few (rocketmax?) frames break, so perhaps they have decided it's because the owners used certain shocks.

They sold frames without shocks (if requested) for many years prior to that, IIRC.

Which is fair enough but maybe word it differently.

"Fitting an incompatible shock may invalidate your warranty, please contact Cotic to discuss before fitting any shock other than the one that came with your frame"

Which is more "we'll help you upgrade safely" and less "our frame might not handle it"

thols2
Free Member

Exactly. A badly set up standard shock will have the same effect as a non-standard shock that isn’t tuned for the frame.

Assuming it fits. Bad tune on a correct length shock is one thing, a wrong-sized shock is very different.

The warranty policy is utter rubbish. A ‘not compatible with coils and will void warranty’ would be fair enough assuming the leverage curve is similar to the rocket so you need a big spring rate relative to weight but to set a limit to two brands seems odd and enough to put me off, especially as I don’t like cane creeks climb switch solution at all. Is there a lot of flex in the rear through the swing link or something and Fox won’t honour warranty claims on Cotic frames?

Cotic sell Fox shocks with frames, but only after testing, tuning and riding them. They are an option on other Cotic frames that have been available longer. This is nothing to do with Fox, it’s saying that experimenting with shocks not supplied by Cotic is at the owners risk, not theirs. Drop them an email if you have more questions.

The warranty policy is utter rubbish. A ‘not compatible with coils and will void warranty’ would be fair enough assuming the leverage curve is similar to the rocket so you need a big spring rate relative to weight but to set a limit to two brands seems odd and enough to put me off, especially as I don’t like cane creeks climb switch solution at all. Is there a lot of flex in the rear through the swing link or something and Fox won’t honour warranty claims on Cotic frames?

Don't buy one then. Which you weren't going to do anyway.

Assuming it fits. Bad tune on a correct length shock is one thing, a wrong-sized shock is very different.

Exactly what I said in the first place. Fitting the wrong sized shock is bad. Fitting an incorrectly tuned shock won't do any harm to the frame.

TBF, anyone who's ever dealt with Cotic knows that their aftersales and warranty is beyond reproach. By far the best I've ever dealt with (though, to be fair, only one of my 8 Cotics needed any sort of aftersales at all). So if you're assuming that it's some sort of dodge or sneaky tactic, basically, don't.

(I literally never had a warranty on my Hemlock, I bought it used as an ex-demo. And by the time I first had an issue it would have been out of warranty anyway. And even if it were in warranty, endurance downhill racing would have been outside of the warranty anyway. And yet I got better "warranty" service than you'll get from almost any brand, despite all that. It got a bit embarassing)

So if you’re assuming that it’s some sort of dodge or sneaky tactic, basically, don’t.

No. The assumption is that it's standard lawyer stuff to avoid problems if somebody does something silly like fitting the wrong sized shock. Every manufacturer has stuff like that written into their warranties.

The point is that it's not an engineering issue, as some people have assumed, it's a lawyer thing. The frames are not going to break if you fit a Fox shock that is the correct size but has an unsuitable damping tune. However, if you do fit a different shock and need to make a warranty claim, you will need to rely on the manufacturer's goodwill because you have violated the terms of the warranty.

thols, you aimed that at me but I think maybe you just didn't understand my post, we agree on this.

thols, you aimed that at me but I think maybe you just didn’t understand my post, we agree on this.

@Northwind
Apologies.