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Eldest and pals are thinking to spend the summer riding the Alps, taking part in the European EWS rounds and volunteering at the Trans Savoie. All good.
However, the plan is to buy a cheap van or camper to do this.
And by cheap, I mean under £5k...
There's a few around - see https://m.facebook.com/marketplace/item/295598982619449/
But I'm concerned they will spend the summer waiting for Monsieur B'stard the carefree Gallic mechanic to fix a 25 year old heap, rather than riding trails. We could buy early, giving chance to do work on it at home before they go, and I'm suggesting at that price something pre-converted is cheapest way to go...
They need a van for 2, regularly 3 if they use an awning. It will be Scotland to Slovenia and back....
So, thoughts....
Decent Berlingo and a tent setup would be my recommendation
There's all sorts of benefits to 3 people and 3 bikes inside a vehicle when travelling / day off etc.
I've suggested tent and big car, but it's not going down as well. They would compromise to bigger van + tent, but they are keen that the £10-12k of bikes, spares, riding kit can be inside a vehicle (with a plan to tint the windows).
I did it in a Transit Mk 1 with the god awful V4 engine. Spent Xmas holidays welding the worst of the holes up, replaced the rusted brake pipes. We camped in the back at Arc 2000 in March and drove it the length of Italy then through Austria to Athens. It died in Greece when the engine gave up. Happy times.
Even if it blows up your eldest will have fun.
That engine will go fine.
But that camper and most cheap campers will be ....is rotten as a peach.
Do they want to throw their cash away and burn the van at the end?
but they are keen that the £10-12k of bikes, spares, riding kit can be inside a vehicle (with a plan to tint the windows).
Be safer in a Berlingo than in that Talbot
I would just buy a van and get them to throw up some insulation and carpet.
Go French, Renault, Citroen, Peugeot and the locals will be able to help!
If three are travelling up front you need a master size I would guess. Sounds like great adventure. When my son buggered off to Indian and Nepal for a bit I was worried but it was a fantastic adventure for him. Try not too worry too much.
Oh and insurance, make sure they all have some that covers the stuff they are going to be doing!
I'm with DB. A £5k panel van should be fine and loads newer/more reliable. Insulate it, very basic beds, bike racks whatever in the back. Gas stove and a dirt worker for showering, job done.
It is getting harder and harder to park and stay over night. Lots of places have ban in place.
Another +1 to the above!
5k panel van, 3 sat up front, room for bikes in the back. Get some sleeping bags/mats and a stove (which I'm fairly sure you have an abundance of op?)
I'd avoid a camper.....5k you're going to be looking at something essentially fit for the scrap yard....3 blokes and bikes in it would potentially lead to payload issues too.
If you see some of the vans/campers at the EWS events around Europe then that link looks like the Hilton.
As long as they don't thrash it they will be fine, at their age I wouldn't have a problem.
It's all about the experiences they will get
Abigale spent a bit of time with 3 in this
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Just short of 2 months touring France, Italy and Switzerland in this.
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Her plans this year for a tour of Europe were scuppered so she did 3000 miles touring the UK
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She is already planning next years Summer expedition
The Decathlon drive away is a god send
Ok, so perhaps a larger van with a driveway awning for the week there's 3 (even 4!) of them sounds a plan.
I think doing the trip for 8 weeks or so, 2 or 3 of them, they would easily spend a few £k on accommodation, so throwing a van away at the end isn't the worst thing...
Don't get a Leyland DAF. Break down all the time and can't get parts. Especially in Europe!
The ldv running gears transit...
I'd say van. Too chain the bikes up inside and have a curtain up so when the rear doors are open it's hidden
Sounds brilliant. Only issue i can see is where the bikes go at night when sleeping inside if they are very valuable?
Sounds like you've experience there YGH..
Sounds brilliant. Only issue i can see is where the bikes go at night when sleeping inside if they are very valuable?
Currently working that out - partly hence the awning, but also easy to make raised bed(s) or string them up under roof of a high top.
It'll be good fun but that Talbot thing is crap.
At least buy the best Vivaro/Trafic or Boxer/Ducato you can get and when it goes pear shaped at least a regular mechanic will be able to help. Fit ground anchors to the floor, buy big chains and sleep in a drive away tent.
It's easy to let your guard down on holiday but bikes go missing all the time.
French van, basic shell, kip outside bikes safe inside. My first vehicle was £300 and drove it from Oban to Barcelona and back so why not do it.
A £5k panel van should be fine and loads newer/more reliable. Insulate it, very basic beds, bike racks whatever in the back. Gas stove and a dirt worker for showering, job done.
Yep, maybe a LWB Trafic.
£5k should get you something reliable enough. I'd take my '07 plate Vivaro out there with reasonable confidence and that's worth less.
Buy carefully obvs.
Wheels off, two bikes strapped across back of seats, bulkhead. Works best with bikes upside-down. Third bike across front seats with wheels off once parked up.
If going down the camper route, then the old Talbot (really a rebadged Ducato) is the best choice. They were built on a galvanised chassis and used (mostly) the old PSA group XUD diesel engines. The non-turbo version is the very definition of a gutless wonder, but it is incredibly reliable - until the head cracks.
They do rot below the front windscreen and this can then eventually eat away at the brake pedal mounting, so check this area carefully. Caveat: Over 5 years since I last worked on one.
An awning or a driveaway with a sensible sized van was my first thought, maybe a higher mileage Vito 8 seater? Which can be had for £5k, ex airport shuttle/taxi vehicles..
leave all of the rear seats at home (or take 1 extra if moving 4 people) and you've got a carpeted van with floor rails to mount stuff to, admittedly it's not going to be fully insulated but if it's mainly a summer tourer on a budget, is that so vital?
Add an awning/driveway and they should have the required capacity for people and kit. Throw any remaining budget at engine & gearbox servicing and fresh tyres. Prevention of a breakdown disaster is probably more important than creature comforts.
If going down the camper route, then the old Talbot (really a rebadged Ducato) is the best choice
But not that old Talbot he linked to.
It has advisorys for being rotten all over. That was handed over with a ticket saying don't bring that back next year......
Well hopefully the OP has got the message that buying a camper under £5k would be madness, anyway.
Moab - they are late teenagers aren’t they? So anything dad says is going to get mostly ignored - learning from your mistakes is a valuable experience…
One thought though - would a LHD be better. Obviously harder to get here - but less popular if they are for sale…
But not that old Talbot he linked to.
Interesting example of how the MOT test varies. Year before it passes with a couple of tyre advisories and then a 1000 or so miles later a massive list of advisories. Got to be a different test station, or tester?
Interesting example of how the MOT test varies. Year before it passes with a couple of tyre advisories and then a 1000 or so miles later a massive list of advisories. Got to be a different test station, or tester?
It swings both ways since 2010 with vary degrees of ****edness Would be interesting to cross reference the mot tests between ownership changes on v5.
I reckon there's a few 100 quid in the ashtray Mots interspersed between real MOTs on that Talbot ..
Just to throw different ideas at you.
How about a trailor tent or dare I say it, a caravan? And a decent car that won't have any engine issues?
Ultimately they will have a fantastic time and the more that goes wrong the better the stories will be.
Failing that, if they do buy a big van try and want to keep the price down, recycle from old caravans, sinks, hobs, toilets, furniture, fridge, etc just use new electrics.
How about a trailor tent or dare I say it, a caravan?
Sadly as a 19 year old, trailer isn't in his license. He can drive LWB high top sprinter, but not a caravan...
Depends as well how mechanically clued up your lad and his mates are - if they can strip engines and are good at bodging with bailing twine/duct tape/cable ties then let them crack on in any older less complex snotter. If they couldn't find a dipstick then the newest least thrashed large car and a tent.
Being outside of the UK/Europe and it's safety blanket of recovery services and common language in an old vehicle is a challenge. I've taken my old Defender to Morrocco, our Transit to Ibiza/Spain/France and our old Volvo pre Covid did Perpignan every year. I knew the vehicles inside out and have the skillset to confidently get them home again
He's changing a bike BB at the moment, bit he's never done any car spannering.
Sadly as a 19 year old, trailer isn’t in his license.
Didn't everyone get that additional class on their licence a couple of weeks ago? I think it was to free up testers to concentrate on truck test capacity.
Hi / mid top van, build in three bunks, bungie netting and hooks along the side to stuff things in, hang bags from. A couple of boxes with clip lids for kitchen stuff. Don't get obsessed about insulation and lining it out. Only thing I would add on top of the bunks would be a power bank of some sort. Camp gear for cooking. More money for van, beer, food, fuel.
Also take a tent for when on official campsites for extra room / privacy/ personal space. I would personally take a 4 person family tent with two bed rooms, 1 in the van and one in each room. Sleeping in a van three up will not be nice for more than a week and personal space will help relations. A tent is generally better designed and priced than a drive away awning and less Hassel. Also some campsites have cheaper pitches it you don't camp right van / car. Take a hammock as well as you can string that from van to whatever and in the heat will be much nicer in the heat than three in a van!
They will be dirt bagging it better to be more incognito with a van.
I'd go for the Relay / Ducato / Boxer van option. They are wide enough to sleep widthways (which also means a bit more elbow room for 3 up front). Generally reliable and rot free vans plus easy to get fixed in Europe if anything did go wrong.
How many miles will the road trip be? 5000? Would you think twice about buying a £5k van or car in UK that only had to live for that mileage? Buy carefully and run for a bit locally to see what develops and it really shouldn't be an issue. Teach him what needs checking on trips and what to look / listen out for (eg where the temperature gauge normally sits etc).
And having apprenticed / done R&D on the ldv vans I'd really avoid them :-). Most will have rotted away. Guess the later Maxus is a lot of van for the money but spares and support won't be good.
Always felt a bit sorry that the Sherpa had to drag on so long - the Master was the joint venture between Renault and Leyland DAF that should have replaced it around 1995 (but DAF went pop first).
Trailers can also bring other problems - TUV tests for motorway speeds in Germany, double vignette costs in Switzerland etc.
Just looked on Autotrader. Covid is still having an impact on the 2nd van market.
£5k doesn't get you anything Fiat Ducato wise (better engine than the same shape Relay or Boxer).
Sprinters are the usual rusty mega mileage courier short dropped to death sheds and will need flywheels and injectors. There's the odd older shape (up to 2006 year) Sprinter that looks okay.
I've dirt bagged inside vans - snowboarding tours and DH races. It's grim, you stink, the van stinks, damp with condensation dripping off everything. Noisey in the rain, red hot in the sun. Poor sleep, ratty with your van mates, frayed friendships. But it is a rite of passage!
Didn’t everyone get that additional class on their licence a couple of weeks ago? I think it was to free up testers to concentrate on truck test capacity.
Not checked it out as I have my trailer test but I suspect it's like buses
In the UK you can drive a bus for pleasure (ie a camper conversion) but you can't drive it in Europe.
Europe still require a trailer test as far as I know and our requirement was to align with EU rather than for safety....which is nuts.
Either way I wouldn't be giving the French a reason to march you to a paypoint and ask questions later
Monsieur B’stard the carefree Gallic mechanic
French mechanics have been spannering my vehicles for 30years when I can't or can't be arsed to do it myself. And very good jobs they've done too. Molgrips' car threads would be really short and dull if he used my local garages. "I took it in, they fixed it and the bill was as quote" end of thread.
I have to say, our experience in LesGets of mechanics was appalling - they happily tried to charge us €250 per tyre following a puncture....for an £80/€100 tyre...
I’d go for the Relay / Ducato / Boxer van option. They are wide enough to sleep widthways
If you're under 6'. I had one with the intention of that set up and at 6'1" and a bit even without insulation at the widest point it wasn't happening.
frayed friendships
Been there opens your eyes to some some fokes level of selfishness. Traveled with a guy befor multiple occasions but after three weeks that was it. Tantrum after tantrum.
Friends of my parents are massive Francophiles spending as much time as they can/could(b-word) there. Always drove Citroen's on the principle that it could be fixed.
Not if it's a clutch cable which is a different length for lh and Rh drive vehicles.
Sounds like a great Winter/Spring project for them all to get used to a van and how things work. They can then have most things sorted before they go in the summer and get a few test runs done in the UK.
At a guess educators experiance of French garage would be with his new or nearly new cars at the dealer as oppose a 90s shitbox camper van.
Even with a 2016 nissan/Renault with a clear cut gearbox/clutch replacement and an open cheque book was enough of a nightmare that my old man drove to Birmingham in 4th gear - and back with 6 gears a new clutch and a new dmf... And it was done before the quote came in from the Renault main dealer in Brive - who was positive about doing it......infact that was 3 weeks ago and we are still waiting.
onehundredthidiot
Full MemberFriends of my parents are massive Francophiles spending as much time as they can/could(b-word) there. Always drove Citroen’s on the principle that it could be fixed.
Not if it’s a clutch cable which is a different length for lh and Rh drive vehicles
This is kind of my point earlier - if they knew the vehicle inside out they'd know that was an issue and carry a spare (and ideally know how to fit it). Otherwise you have to accept you might need to leave the vehicle behind, bodge it to get it home or wait for parts to be DHL'd in if you don't have decent ADAC / European recovery.
That's a whole other level of inside out unless you're a mechanic. I wouldn't realistically expect anyone to know that for the use case given. It's a Euro road trip, not the Mongol rally.
On trailer licences, you should be entitled to tow in Europe:
DVLA will update your driving licence record to show that you’re allowed to tow trailers. You do not need to contact DVLA for this to happen. It will be done automatically. You’ll get category BE added to your driving licence when you next apply to get a new driving licence.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-rules-for-towing-a-trailer-or-caravan-with-a-car-from-autumn-2021
If that's the route they wanted to go down then a licence renewal and trailer lessons minimum.
Been there opens your eyes to some some fokes level of selfishness.
He's spent a few months sharing AirBnB's and dossing on floors in Morzine, plus student house. He can cope - and also has someone he won't invite on this trip from selfish behaviours before...
Be much better with a converted van than factory built camper. Something on a sprinter with rust treated well, basic conversion thrown in and you might do ok.
I had a Peugeot 605 I kept 18 years, Trail Rat. I drove it into my local indy one day when it had suddenly slowed on the autoroute. They took the head off the same day and showed me unequal height pistons (bent conrod) and warped head. A quick back of enevelope quote for an engine from Peugeot and fitting, I left it with them and picked it up the next week after which it ran fine till I took it to the breakers. An engine swap and not a single niggle afterwards.
The local Renault franchise gets 4.3 average from 360 reviews compared with 3.7 from 400 reviews from BMW Maidstone (the first make and town to come into my head to compare with).
As for buying tyres, tyres from a specialist are always a lot cheaper than from a main dealer or even indy. Just ask for the wheel, carry it along to the local tyre specialist then roll it back to the garage where the car is being fixed if you don't like the quote for the tyre.
I bought an Audi in Val d'Isere that needed some work on the front suspension so I could get it home safely. The local garage was too busy to do it so I asked to borrow the specific tools - no problem. The guy refused a cash tip so I went and bought a bottle of good whisky and left that.
Junior got a 25-year-old 205 to Mongolia (someone else drove it back). Dad made sure it was running OK before he left, it was desert-prepped by a mechanic in Turkey for a tiny sum and fixed by a roadside mechanic in Mongolia when he ripped a brake pipe off.
Must just have been because the wheel was on the wrong side ......(although van has french plates and driver was french speaking) but none of the 5 French garages were interested including his local that does all his other work
Maybe he should have gone to Turkey.
My 6ft something work colleague seems quite happy sleeping across his Relay (currently doing his second conversion - both have been very tidy and used the same sleeping layout).
Spare clutch cable is a good call (if it isn't hydraulic which most will be). I actually carried one bitd and had to swap it half way up an Italian mountain :-). 10 minute job with no tools but I still don't miss some aspects of '90s cars......
Renault Kangoo and a tent. You can add a camping set up but it might be cramped for more than one.
I wouldn't bother trying to fit the van out to sleep 3 - it'll be boiling hot and three up sleeping in a van will be minging. Decathlon pop up tents are the one. Better to be able to keep the bikes fully built in the van overnight (don't want to be dismantling them every night to fit them in).
I'd not try and over think it, just get a cheap van and get on with it. Getting EU recovery would be worthwhile (we used it a couple of times when road tripping round EU with LDV vans...). Peugeot and Citreon vans tend to be pretty cheap and it might make getting them patched up a bit easier - the French garages we visited were a bit bemused by LDVs.
If the van is going to be a disaster-athon you'll know within the first few hundred miles of trucking, so a couple of UK trips to settle everything in is probably worthwhile.
I’d not try and over think it
Exactly. It's easier now than it was in the 80s as most vehicles are sold in most countries. Gone are the days of having to drive 100 miles to find a Ford garage in Italy to get a part.
Buy a van (or estate car and tent), get it looked over and serviced by a trusted independent, fresh MOT, breakdown insurance if you want and let them get on with it.
My 6ft something work colleague seems quite happy sleeping across his Relay
Must be diagonal or fetal. I am not saying he is not comfortable but there is no lying flat out cross ways in a detcto / relay at over 6' unless they have suddenly increased in width by about 3" + since 2007.
Gone are the days of having to drive 100 miles to find a Ford garage in Italy to get a part.
That was still a thing in 2016🤣
Drove into a treestump and broke my Transit's sump in Finale. Managed to get it more or less back into shape with a hammer and a tube of gasket sealant. Only lost half a pint between there and Lincoln. Only found one Ford dealer en route, in Albenga, and they could get a new sump in 'less than two weeks'
Cheers all - we've decided to look at mid-size such as Citroen Dispatch, plus big awning/drive away tent and a roof box. They can get three bikes in, three across front, they are cheaper to buy, run and insure, and it better suits him on his own after summer adventures.
There's a couple of half decent looking ones around, but we're not in a rush to buy.
Sounds like a good idea, keep an eye on the height with the roofbox if they going to use the toll roads in France.
decided to look at mid-size such as Citroen Dispatch
Go for the old school bulletproof 2.0HDI version over the 1.6
we’ve decided to look at mid-size such as Citroen Dispatch, plus big awning/drive away tent and a roof box.
Is one of the party a double amputee? If not someone’s in for a very uncomfortable summer. There’s def not room for 3 adults with legs in a Dispatch.
There’s def not room for 3 adults with legs in a Dispatch.
Won't really matter which van they buy the passengers are in for a torrid time.
How ever when I was their age a group of 9 friends would go to Les get in a 9 seater land rover. Bikes on the roof.
My idea of hell but they were willing.to put up with the discomfort for the riding.
Exactly - if the price of a summer or EWS, riding and climbing the eastern Alps is cramming into a tent, snug in a van seat, and generally other dirtbag behaviour, they seem to be up for it.
That was still a thing in 2016🤣
Drove into a treestump and broke my Transit’s sump in Finale. Managed to get it more or less back into shape with a hammer and a tube of gasket sealant. Only lost half a pint between there and Lincoln. Only found one Ford dealer en route, in Albenga, and they could get a new sump in ‘less than two weeks’
Aren't Transit engines still all PSA? A Citroën /Pug dealer may have been a better bet.
Aren’t Transit engines still all PSA? A Citroën /Pug dealer may have been a better bet.
2 points. His old transit was ancient wasn't it.
Also just because the vehicle shares the engine code. It may not share the sump. It's quite common to have specific sumps to clearance drive trains and subframes.
Whatever they get they will enjoy it. Once you leave it doesn't really matter.
Also just because the vehicle shares the engine code. It may not share the sump. It’s quite common to have specific sumps to clearance drive trains and subframes.
Just going by my experience. I'd still ask the question before writing it off though.
Apart from rust, what else do I need to look out for on Transit's?
Abigales boyfriend is just about to put his van up for sale. I can get you some info if you want
As long as it is under £5k....!
There’s a couple of half decent looking ones around, but we’re not in a rush to buy.
Then buy a Haynes manual and a minimal toolset for odd jobs on it
This is the link to it recent service and MOT
Ive not seen it as he comes up in a car when he visits, it is down South
Apart from rust, what else do I need to look out for on Transit’s?
The rust thats hiding behind the rust you can see. My cosseted 07plate ex welfare van that was regularly waxoyl'd and cleaned underneath in winter secretly rusted to bits. Mechanically was okay they'll need to take a spare starter motor with them though - mine used to eat them every year as the DMF was slowly filling them with metal swarf.
Apart from rust, what else do I need to look out for on Transit’s?
Just that. But there will enough to keep you busy!
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Gear selector units on FWD ones. Either a couple of hundred for a new one and an hour or so labour, or fifteen quid for the bearing which seizes and about six hours labour.
As above, starter motor, but a cheap and easy replacement on a FWD one, harder to get at on RWD as the engine is turned the other way.
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Brake discs are not a DIY job unless you have an air gun, 450Nm bolt torque (for some stupid reason they are behind the hubs) Pads are a doddle though.
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Handbrakes seize (may not be a Transit specific problem, I've always had dodgy handbrakes whatever vehicle I've had)
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Rear light clusters let water in, sends the electrics whappy. Easy fix though.
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But mostly it's rust.
Rear light clusters let water in, sends the electrics whappy. Easy fix though.
Ah yes, I remember that from when we had 4 at work from brand new...
This is one that has popped up - MOT history is not too bad, and no mention of rust on MOT.
I have a Trafic van and you would have to be pretty creative to get 3 bikes and 3 blokes sleeping in the back of one.
Even a LWB is not as big as people have in their head 🙂
We did three people in an L1 H2 Ducato for years. The bikes were hung from the roof when sleeping. Two people slept on the floor and the third across the van on a bed about 40cm off the floor with foot room for the other two under it. I'm not saying it was especially comfortable but it was practical if you don't mind life on all fours. comfortable was the front seats and as anyone who's owned a Ducato will know that's a pretty miserable place to be for long.
So where are the bikes going while the lads are sleeping in that Transit?
I'd favour Tracey's Vivaro, keeping the bikes in the van and the people in tents.
I'd be tempted with a panel van with a raised bed and bikes go in underneath. Only issue with that though, is if they get lucky with the local ladies, they will be fighting for the bed space...so an awning/tent would be handy to let the others sleep!
I'd also be tempted to pack some camping stoves and pots/pans and have that as my camper bit - save money to spend on the van - 3 seats up front and get them to decide if it is 2 (maybe 3) or 3 (maybe 4) as that determines number of seats and what is then available.
Panel van so at least the kit is hidden as no windows, bed can be 3/4s up the available height as even lying on side there should be height available which means bikes and kit can go underneath.
I'd suggest an alpine-hut style of sleeping - all of them in 1 bed in their sleeping bags sleeping head-to-toe - saves space OR a tent/awning that can allow sleeping outside if preferred.
As much fully comprehensive insurance as they can get and also as much personal insurance as they can - MTBing is considered a high risk sport and isn't always covered by standard 'holiday' insurance so make sure they get full cover for all the shenanigans they will be getting up to.
Make sure they practice changing tyres on the vehicle and that they know where all the important bits of the vehicle are i.e. fuse boxes/bulbs and how to replace them/tyre spares and how to use them. Get them to regularly check the oil levels and as long as they aren't racing the van everywhere it should do them well.
Sounds like an awesome adventure...it'll be brilliant.
The plan is not three in the van - it is to use a large drive away awning or our existing tent alongside. There would be one sleeping in van - and it looks like much of the summer may only be two of them.
They would need to:
- get three people, three bikes and kit inside to travel.
- (maybe) sleep one person + a load of kit in van, bikes and people could then be in the driveaway awning, locked to the van.
I think if the transit looks OK and drives OK it has some potential for a project .
I think the bed would be a lot better up in the air with space for bikes and gear underneath, at the moment there is a lot of unused space at the back.
In 6 years we have never used the sink in our van. We have a small plastic sink bowl and ideally wash pots outside.
The unit behind the double seat I would potentially take out, utilise elsewhere, unless its hiding something and have the facility for flipping the front double over to rear facing when parked up.
I cant see from the photos but there is also scope for storage above the front seats either with a shelf or cargo net.
When Abigale travels, most of the time, cooking, eating and socializing are all done in the awning.
When she comes with us she has her own space up in the roof 😃
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Practicalities point, be aware that GHIC or whatever it is now called does not include Switzerland (or Norway I think), so if your going to need medical treatment make sure you have insurance, or can get across the border.....