[Closed] anyone else call their kid(s) a little monkey?

Anything to add other than just a link?

Oooh, is this going to be this month's "white men show little understanding of the nuances of racism" thread?

No, but my middle one has red hair and if he was asked to model a shirt which said "Coolest Carrot on the Allotment" i'd probably object.

It's all about context innit.

I'm struggling to be offended by it, ill thought out, yes, do I think there was any malicious intent? Of course not.

Is that how it works now, a simple honest mistake trying navigate the maze of 21st century offence top trumps and it's pitchforks at dawn? People are so intolerant these days.

Boy2 has always been called "Monkey". That's because he was climbing before he was walking.

yes, but...

nuance and context

I'd love to know the sequence of initial racism followed by wanton stupidity at H&M that led to this. The internal root cause analysis would be an epic tale.

I do, he's 1/4 African though.

Does that make me a bad person? I should probably check but i'm not sure who's the authority on this sort of thing?

might not be malicious but definitely stupid

Is that how it works now, a simple honest mistake trying navigate the maze of 21st century offence top trumps and it's pitchforks at dawn?

Well, it's more pointing out that many white people are oblivious to racism. And when whites are the majority, this represents a problem for non-whites. We'd love to live in a post-race world, but we don't - and white people should not use this to conveniently forget about the problems of race.

I think that's the point of this news item isn't it?

The Weeknd says the advert made him feel "shocked and embarrassed."

The singer has previously sold merchandise through H&M and modelled for the company.

Well I can see why he would feel embarrassed with a moniker like that and selling merchandise through H&M. The Bellnd, more like.

I'm struggling to be offended by it

Some people are though, and some of those people can give a cogent explanations as to why. Isn't that enough?

do I think there was any malicious intent? Of course not.

I don't think anyone does, but just cos it's 'only' a careless mistake doesn't mean it's okay.

I'm struggling to be offended by it, ill thought out, yes, do I think there was any malicious intent? Of course not.
Is that how it works now, a simple honest mistake trying navigate the maze of 21st century offence top trumps and it's pitchforks at dawn? People are so intolerant these days.

You mean to tell me that out of all the poeple involved (photographers,agents,parents,marketeers,editors etc etc) no-one managed to spot the obvious balls up here! thats my problem with it, not one person along the chain was able to see that this is wrong.

I'd love to know the sequence of initial racism followed by wanton stupidity at H&M that led to this.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42627051 ]maybe we should ask Mr Beadsley [/url]?

I think Africans are a bit sensitive to this; I once called my son a little monkey in front of some Nigerian business visitors who we were entertaining and there was a shocked reaction, before my customer's wife asked me: "What did you call him?" I found myself explaining that it is quite common to call kids little monkeys.

You mean to tell me that out of all the people involved (photographers,agents,parents,marketeers,editors etc etc) no-one managed to spot the obvious balls up here! thats my problem with it, not one person along the chain was able to see that this is wrong.

Maybe, maybe not - I'm not sure about this particular case, but often with these sorts of things they'll take one image with one top and then super impose different versions of the same garment into the same head.

Anyway, that's not the point - as the OP was getting at I think, lots of people call their kids 'cheeky little monkeys' it's completely innocent, it's completely harmless, I must have called my kids monkeys this week. I've called other adults cheeky monkeys too, if I had the foresight (not my strong suit) I would avoid calling any Black people Monkeys, if I did I would hope that they'd know what I meant and if I did upset someone I'd be horrified but really, I think to take a first look at that image and think "he's calling that kid a monkey because he's black and black people are less evolved than other races" is sort of sick in it's own way and I think it validates the idiots who think that.

More than that though, I think there's an awful lot of people who spend too much time looking to twist things to find wrong doing where there was none. The Weeknd has strong ties with H&M, he could have picked up the phone and said "Hey Lads, I'm not too sure about this hoodie of yours, have you really thought this one through?" maybe someone in Sweden might have said "Really, in some places white people call black people monkeys? shit that's grim, yeah we'll drop it" but no, maybe it's worth a few hundred thousand streams to make a huge fuss about it and concrete the idea that it hurtful to call Black People Monkeys.

If I was the Weeknd and H&M released a line of white hoods 'KKK style' or Velcro chains for 'slave wear' I'd 'sever ties' too, but they didn't.

I got in trouble for this, when i was lunch room supervisor (ooh the POWER!) to a group of 1st or 2nd years when i was in the sixth form (mid 80's). Two kids were constantly pissing about and I said that 'if you two little monkeys don't go back to your seats I'll give you both a work squad' (means they get to spend a lunch break litter picking or something)

One of them complained about it to their form tutor and i got admonished for racial insensitivity. My protestations that it couldn't have been racist because only one of them was black and I called them both the same fell on deaf ears.

FWIW the other was a ching chong chinaman. NOT REALLY!!!!!!

I think there's an awful lot of people who spend too much time looking to twist things to find wrong doing where there was none.

Not in this case. No-one's accusing H&M of actually being racist. They're saying it's insensitive because there's a long and bitter history of the use of the word monkey in racist language. And TBH you're being very white about this by telling black people what they should or shouldn't be offended about.

i got admonished for racial insensitivity

Right. Not [i]racism[/i], but racial insensitivity.

+1Molgrips

I'd need a picture of a turd and paper bag, as I regularly call my kids "you little shit bag"

It's not really surprising that a young fashion designer may not have ever encountered the term in such a way.

Absolutely. It seems an entirely innocent thing to have done, like jonv - but we still need to be aware. I think it's called 'tact' isn't it?

Im with P-Jay on this one

Talk about outrage looking for something to be outraged against.

Don't forget when the shoot was done the models parent or guardian would have been there too. Making the heroic assumption they are the same race then clearly they also saw nothing wrong.

Would we have the same fuss if they had used a white model? If not why not?

bit racially insensitive and very easily avoided

H+M have obviously got an idiot editor working for them

I always refer to my kids as little shits to avoid exactly this type of furore

Would we have the same fuss if they had used a white model? If not why not?

Think about it for 10 seconds.

yunki - Member

bit racially insensitive and very easily avoided

H+M have obviously got an idiot editor working for them

What if the idiot editor was black, refers to his or her own children as little monkeys and hence, saw no problem.

Makes you think.

Adding “in the Jungle” makes it quite a lot worse I think. “Go back to the jungle” is a common racist insult.

Makes me think no normal person would even notice. This race obsessed nonsense is an embarrassment.

Slowly but surely, the easily outraged are being replaced in number by the easily outraged at those easily outraged.

Making the heroic assumption they are the same race then clearly they also saw nothing wrong.

How do you know they saw nothing wrong with it?

Slowly but surely, the easily outraged are being replaced in number by the easily outraged at those easily outraged.

Could we refer to that as going 'Double Snowflake' Bravissimo? 😀

Anyway....

Makes me think no normal person would even notice. This race obsessed nonsense is an embarrassment.

I'm all for thinking of myself as racially blind in my thinking and actions but even then you'd have to either be massively naive or insensitive to think that this should ever have been used as an image. Even if it was to prevent dicks retweeting the image with a racial slur attached.

Personally find 'little cheeky monkey' and variations quite an endearing phrase used with naughty kid and do it myself. Sad that offence could be taken from it but it is, and reasonably so. So there it is.

But hang on; this dude calls himself 'The Weeknd'? Really? What a doosh. Sounds/spells like the Guardian Saturday supplement title.

Makes me think no normal person would even notice. This race obsessed nonsense is an embarrassment.

Mmm.. just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not there.

Tell me the last time you suffered racial abuse?

Designers have maybe been called monkeys since they were in nursery. Have a quick google search for "cheeky monkeys nursery" or "cheeky monkeys soft play" and you won't have to travel far to find one. Or maybe they all (Bellnd included) did it deliberately for the publicity. H&M sales are down, closing shops.

Not all monkeys are black or brown ..there are some that are ginger ..some Black & White some that are blue faced and some like this little fellow..
I can see why some would see racial overtones ..but you would like to think that the ad. was done innocently ...
https://goo.gl/images/7RjE68

But hang on; this dude calls himself 'The Weeknd'?

Reads better than 'Bellnd'.

I should think it reminds people of times they've suffered abuse.

This is easy: the people that don't see the racism are racist for not seeing the racism. The people that do see the racism are racist for seeing it as racist.

and the follow up

If you look at that and instantly think "oh dear that's racist because he's black", then you are indeed racist.

Literally, all I see is a kid.

If you look at that and instantly think "oh dear that's racist because he's black", then you are indeed racist.

Literally, all I see is a kid.

Well said Dan. My sentiments entirely.

Far too many people (on here as well as not on here) just want to see an excuse to show the race card.

[img] [/img]

I can't think I knew that some call black people monkeys, always associated it with kids. I call my son a monkey, he's half Chinese rather than fully black so guess that's OK? He says that I must be a monkey then as I'm his Dad.

He says that I must be a monkey then as I'm his Dad.

You should hear what my 31 yr old calls me! It's usually something like, 'Dad, ya ****' 😆

Oh thank you swear filter. Again.

[quote=glasgowdan ]If you look at that and instantly think "oh dear that's racist because he's black", then you are indeed racist.

Yes of course that's it. Clearly it's only the black slebs who are racist.

[quote=mudshark ]I can't think I knew that some call black people monkeys

Had a sheltered life? I thought it was common knowledge that black footballers got abused with monkey chants and having bananas thrown at them (in the bad old days - hopefully that sort of thing has mostly stopped now) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/8898054/Former-Liverpool-star-John-Barnes-says-society-is-to-blame-for-racism-problem-that-football-just-cant-shift.html

Yes, but not when my black friends and their kids are around. (I have two black friends.)

I once said "chop chop!" to a chinese friend (who was dawdling)

I was mortified. It prompted a conversation about the fact I was pretty blind to her ethnicity - and had I not have been, how I wouldn't have said it.

The outcome was we agreed that I was a muppet, not a racist.

I once said "chop chop!" to a chinese friend (who was dawdling) I was mortified.

Ive used it a few times while trying to get co-workers or contractors to get a move on, its not insulting, its not even understood by most native Cantonese speakers I know.

She grew up here in the 70s/80s - it certainly made up part of the incessant bullying she had to put up with in her youth. The Cantonese may not consider it a racist slur, but Caucasian kids from the home counties certainly did.

I call my son a monkey, he's half Chinese rather than fully black so guess that's OK?

😯

Anyone who cannot see the problem with this photograph is deluded. Its as plain as the nose on your face!

What about this one? Cute and cuddly or racist and highly offensive??

[img] [/img]

For me it says good things about this country and its attitude to racism.

Rather than thinking that somebody put the kid in the jumper to cause offence, perhaps the person who set it up is completely unaware of the reference and didn't give it a thought because they don't see race as an issue?

My kids are learning about racism at school at the moment and we have had a few conversations about it at home. They understand the concept of discriminating on the base of skin colour, the idea they cannot understand is why a person would dislike somebody just because they have a different skin colour. It is a hard one to explain to young, naive children.

African colleagues often refer to a kid, any kid as a cheeky monkey.
I was quite surprised, being a sensitive lefty.

We had a conversation about this in work a year or so ago, when talking about phrases they'd picked up from living in the UK.

They said they heard it used a lot over here and found it amusing, so picked it up themselves.

Maybe it's a Northern thing but everyone uses it up here.
I think because it's in such common use 'Monkey' doesn't really get used so much as a racial insult.
Thick Northern Monkey has almost become a badge of pride.
🙂

Don't hear kids being called 'Scruffy Arab' much these days.
Was in common usage when I was a kid.

Ooooh, It's a northern thing?

Where's this Bellnd from? If he's southern can we string him up for cultural appropriation as well? 😀

Don't hear kids being called 'Scruffy Arab' much these days.
Was in common usage when I was a kid.

I remember "dirty Arab" alot....meant nothing to me as a kid other than you didnt take 3 showers a day....

I can see how it didn't get called out by anybody at H&M, lots of people probably thought...

"Hmmm, surely that's not a great idea"

but nobody said anything because to call it out in corporate world you'd be afraid of being branded yourself... to call it out you have to recognise the association..

I can see how it didn't get called out by anybody at H&M, lots of people probably thought...
"Hmmm, surely that's not a great idea"
but nobody said anything because to call it out in corporate world you'd be afraid of being branded yourself... to call it out you have to recognise the association..

Sorry but thats BS... No-one would be branded a racist for raising a hand and saying "you know what? maybe this isnt such a good idea"

What about this one? Cute and cuddly or racist and highly offensive??

Neither?

Neither?

Really?? Wow.

Sorry but thats BS... No-one would be branded a racist for raising a hand and saying "you know what? maybe this isnt such a good idea"

That would be nice wouldn’t it.

But.

glasgowdan - Member
If you look at that and instantly think "oh dear that's racist because he's black", then you are indeed racist.

Seems it’s not the case.

glasgowdan - Member
If you look at that and instantly think "oh dear that's racist because he's black", then you are indeed racist.

No, it just means you are socially well informed and respectful of other cultures and thier histories.

If you look at that and instantly think "oh dear that's racist because he's black", then you are indeed racist.

Literally, all I see is a kid.

Well said Dan. My sentiments entirely.

Far too many people (on here as well as not on here) just want to see an excuse to show the race card.

It's not about what YOU see. It's about what black people see.

What does "show the race card" even mean?

🙄

I had no idea that recognising that there might be a problem with using simian references when talking to a black person or representing them pictorially made me racist. Every day’s a school day it seems. I hope someone’s told Roy Hodgson too.

Rather than thinking that somebody put the kid in the jumper to cause offence, perhaps the person who set it up is completely unaware of the reference and didn't give it a thought because they don't see race as an issue?

Probably very naive of me but this, in my honest opinion, is what the world should be striving for. Race just being a complete nonexistent issue. Sadly that day is not in sight. When I look at that image I don’t think racism. It’s just a kid in a hoody.

What does "show the race card" even mean?

I think he means [i]play[/i] the race-card.

Really?? Wow.

Really. I very much doubt that anyone would market it with the intention of causing offence, because if nothing else, it would be bad for business. Nevertheless, it is associated with historical terms of abuse so it's not something I would sign off. So if it's alright with you, I'll carry on thinking it's a bit crap but not top of my list of things to be concerned about. Not that such attitudes will stop the "only saying what everyone's thinking" brigade from being outraged at any suggestion they might think about other people.

I once said "chop chop!"

I guess that means it's perfectly possible to be/say something racist even without malice, or even knowing what you're saying is racist!

I think he means play the race-card.

Yes and it's a term that's usually used to suggest a black or ethnic minority person is falsely claiming racism for some kind of advantage.

I've never seen anyone do that on here.

I've never seen anyone do that on here.

Me neither but I’ve seen plenty of accusations of it.

I once did a home visit to a travelling family and was handed the newest baby to hold, beaming beatifically id said " Your're a little tinker aren't you ? " , to be fair he was .

Never heard of chop chop being racist?

It's not about what YOU see. It's about what black people see.

I agree completely.
If something offends someone, it is by it's nature offensive.

But it is in common usage in a non racist or offensive manner and has been for years.

Comparing ourselves to our near genetic neighbours is inevitable.
From the initial public perception and acceptance of Evolution to comedy, Ian Brown, Lock Stock, Attenborough etc, it's a fascinating part of everyone's shared human consciousness.

It's not inherently racist, although like anything it can easily be used in a racist manner.

Context, innit?

We seem to be inbetween two different eras when it comes to things like this. The older generations who can recall the slurs used and maybe even used them or subjected to them themselves, and the youngsters today who might not have any awareness whatsoever and the whole subject is alien to them.

I am not sure we need to keep educating them on terms that were used to abuse in the past and to rule then out for their future. Is it not better just to let them get on with it and the problem finally dies away?

I think about the young black kid in this picture who for all we know might have had a really great day doing a photoshoot. Now he is news for something he might not even understand. A young kid who might have even got a kick out of the comparison to being his favourite animal or something being told he shouldn't wear it because if the colour of his skin.

Makes me sad for the youth to have the faults of their elders hanging over them.

Never heard of chop chop being racist?

Never heard of chinky being racist? 😉

Certainly never heard it described as racist before. Having just googled it though, it probably is

The, er, "trouble" with "chop-chop" is that it also gives rise to "chopsticks" and "choppy" when describing the sea.

As for the opening post and the quesiton of whether it's racist, I suggest everyone on this thread reads [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sellout_%28novel%29 ]The Sellout by Paul Beatty[/url] for a contemporary take.

Let me ask this....

How many of you would be happy to walk up to a black person in the street and say to their little kid "awwww you`re a cute little monkey arent you?"

that’s what I said wasn’t it?

Yes you did. I still haven’t.

I'm fairly sure the phrase 'chop chop' along with 'chopsticks' and 'choppy seas' aren't [i]inherently[/i] racist, as they are just words acquired from a different language, such is the way of the English language. I'm also pretty sure that they [i]could[/i] be used in a racist manner though, which kind of cuts to the crux of this issue. There appears to be two types of racism being talked about here; deliberate racism of the 'monkey football chant' variety, and perceived racism, such as the cheeky monkey t shirt. I'm fairly sure both are wrong, but I'm also fairly sure that they are on a entirely different order of magnitude of wrongness to each other.

Let me ask this....

How many of you would be happy to walk up to a black person in the street and say to their little kid "awwww you`re a cute little monkey arent you?"

Yes you did. I still haven’t

Yeah, I was surprised when I googled the etymology. Every day’s a school day I guess.

. I'm fairly sure both are wrong, but I'm also fairly sure that they are on a entirely different order of magnitude of wrongness to each other.