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Not going.
I rather think he's just signed his own death sentence..
Anyone else expecting the 93 year old to have a heart attack in the next couple of days?
Why didn't this happen say 35 years ago?
The way it’s ‘done’ in Zims is to be involved in a car accident involving a large truck which is never found...,
Bob won’t believe he’s done anything to be sorry about.. he still believes in his head he’s fighting a revolutionary war....
he didn't really become an outright baddie 😆 till about the mid 90s or so, the land siesures in 2000 sealed that fate.slowoldman - Member
Why didn't this happen say 35 years ago?
When you say "outright baddie" - where does the murder of 20,000 people in the early 80's come in to the calculation ?
no idea, just talking about the public view of him, spotlight didn't really get shone till he started kicking the white folks out their farms.
Might you I don't remember much news before the 90s, so happy to be corrected on world opinion pre 95.
I’m always amazed by swivel eyed loons’ knowledge of late twentieth century African history.
I’m always amazed by swivel eyed loons’ knowledge of late twentieth century African history.
Glory dayz and all that.
They meant take back control of other countries and ting...
He was definitely seen as a baddie in the 80s when he sent The Fifth Brigade (who reported directly to him rather than through the army) to kill his fellow freedom fighters ZAPU and their families in Matabeleland - in the range 3,750 – 30,000 according to Wiki.
There were lots of other baddies in Africa at the time though and no appetite in the UK for a (post) colonial war.
I sincerely hope this plays out peacefully. I would be lf the view Mugabe started out OK and has lost his way very badly indeed. He’s been too powerful to be bumped off and South Africa have supported him as they don’t want Zimbabwe to descend into chaos and become their problem
@seaso max terms make sense with Presidents, as per the US system. I can see where that makes sense.
Quite interested in the history of mugabe now, happy to admit I know nothing about it really, quite interesting watching this, news reports after his election. I guess most britons introduction to mugabe.
jambalaya - Member
I sincerely hope this plays out peacefully. I would be lf the view Mugabe started out OK and has lost his way very badly indeed.
Really?
You believe a revolutionary, murderous, pseudo communist dictator was 'ok'?
I find that very hard to believe.
Just saw the news. Obviously mugabe wasn’t overly happy at the UK taking zimbabwe’s place as having the world’s most dysfunctional government so thought he’d take it to the next level. In response I expect Boris Johnson will now lock himself to the railings of Downing Street.
Joe, google ZIm GDP per capita in PPP terms for a very sad story in one line. And then think about the Shona v Ndebele issues that Mefty alluded too before he was abused.
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Yes, pinpoints exactly where public opinion really changed. ie 2000 long after the massacres.
I'm not saying anything in support of mugabe btw, I have no great knowledge, well I've a bit more now, I've been spending the last hour or so watching some new reports from the 70s/80s and the likes.
I've no side to take i'm just interested in the history of it, seems very interesting.
Mefty was abused
He chose to start calling people thick after acting as a colonialism apologist, using the ndebele massacre as a passive aggressive snide to criticise those who took issue with some of the posters predictable attitudes towards the majority native population.
What did he expect, I stand by everything I said in my post - unfortunately the snowflake probably hit the report button.
Mnangagwa was much more involved in Matabeleland mass murders than Mugabe and is know for readily resorting to violence.
Democratic elections with a fully functioning opposition; a thorough purge of Grace Mugabe's associates and supporters; repatriation of Mugabe's financial assets would be a good start.
The country's coffers have been thoroughly rinsed by Mugabe so that might force Mnangagwa to be pragmatic and focussed on economic regeneration if/when he is annointed.
This explains everything... 🙂
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😆
He's resigned - by letter; at last.
All eyes on Mnangagwa and the army.
We tank God!
Out of the frying pan . . . . .
Out of the frying pan .
That really is the question. Is it just the old guard didnt want his wife in power or will they be willing to work with the opposition and try for some democracy.
This is Africa nothing will change other than the man holding the big stick.
@oldman you are almost certainly right but the people of Zim now have hope
Mnangagwa has an opportunity to write his name in the history books - for the right reasons.
Institute proper democratic processes; rebuild the economy; keep the good from Mugabe's reign but ditch everything else; force Mugabe and cronies to repatriate at least 50% of the money and assets they have stolen. Prove that he has changed from being the heavy handed enforcer he was for Mugabe.
We can but hope.
[quote=frankconway ]keep the good from Mugabe's reign
remind me
I hitch hiked through Matabeleland in 83 and there was a lot of shooting going on but difficult to know who was involved at that time. I had to spend a certain amount of time crouched in the footwell of a car keeping my head down. In the Monomotapa in Harare I met a group of Welsh Guards who were there to 'advise'the Fifth Brigade, whatever that meant. On my return to Botswana I decided the road was too dangerous and so got a train only to find it dripping with Fifth Brigade, guns, grenades, the lot, because the railway kept getting blown up. An eventful summer that was.
Zimbabwe is a great country but Mugabe has shown the way to bleeding the place dry and I'm sure he has lots of willing replacements both inside and outside the army.
Well he made the country one of the most literate in Africa, something that is apparent when you listen to them speak.
It was a literate country before Mugabe, I should think schools would have been impoverished under his misrule. I remember drinking a Chibuku shake-shake in the back of a roundhouse in the Eastern Highlands discussing Orwell and Shakespeare.
Interesting, seems like Emmerson Mnangagwa's transfer to power was advocated by John Bredenkamp long ago...
Bredenkamp became something of a power behind the scenes in the ruling ZANU-PF party. It is claimed that [b]he sought to facilitate the early retirement of President Mugabe in 2004 and his replacement by Emmerson Mnangagwa[/b], former Security Minister and Speaker of Parliament. This displeased rival factions in ZANU-PF, and government investigations were started into the affairs of Bredenkamp's Breco trading company concerning tax evasion and exchange control violations. The matters under investigation were transactions between Breco in Zimbabwe and offshore companies controlled by Bredenkamp.
You can read more on John Bredenkamp in the [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/jivehoney-and-tales-of-the-unexpected/page/18?replies=904 ]Panama Papers[/url] thread...
I've just seen that John Bredenkamp was a client of Mossack Fonseca:[b]Bredenkamp, on the firm’s books since 1997, had been described in 2002 by a United Nations expert panel as “experienced in setting up clandestine companies and sanctions-busting operations.” In 2008, months before Mossack Fonseca cut ties, Bredenkamp was sanctioned by OFAC for allegedly being a “crony” of Zimbabwe dictator Robert Mugabe and a “well-known Mugabe insider.”[/b]
[b]Bredenkamp did not respond to requests for comment, but he has consistently denied allegations concerning him and his companies and has denied having supported President Mugabe. In 2012, Bredenkamp successfully overturned European Union sanctions against him and his companies.[/b]
[b]
One company, Tremalt Limited, purchased equipment for armies in the Democratic Republic of Congo, the United Nations alleged. It took seven years before a Mossack Fonseca employee reported internally that an Internet search implicated a separate company the law firm said was owned by Bredenkamp “in a series of allegations concerning arms deals.”[/b]
But who am I to question the morality of such activity...[b]For years, the records show, Mossack Fonseca has earned money creating shell companies that have been used by suspected financiers of terrorists and war criminals in the Middle East; drug kings and queens from Mexico, Guatemala and Eastern Europe; nuclear weapons proliferators in Iran and North Korea, and arms dealers in southern Africa.[/b]
Reminds me of David Cameron's visit to South Africa in 1989 for some reason...
tbh also apparent when watching new reports from the 70s and early 80s.Bear - Member
Well he made the country one of the most literate in Africa, something that is apparent when you listen to them speak.
Interesting that [url= http://allafrica.com/stories/201710060127.html ]Mugabe was visited by Nicholas Soames earlier this year[/url]...
In an exclusive briefing The Herald got from President Mugabe yesterday, Sir Nicholas carried messages of goodwill from establishment figures, Prince Charles and Lord Carrington, who presided over the Lancaster House conference in 1979.Recalling the conversation, President Mugabe said Sir Nicholas told him that "there are some good people who still are your friends in Britain."
Apart from being chairman of Aegis Defence Services (a private military company with deep connections to the SAS) and Prince Charles' Equerry at around the time Lord Mountbatten introduced Jimmy Savile to the Royal Family, he is also the son of Christopher Soames, who was the last governor of Southern Rhodesia, before it became Zimbabwe.
He (Mugabe) also reminisced over his reaction when Lord Soames told him to form a Government after resoundingly winning elections in 1980. President Mugabe said Lord Soames told him that in constituting his Government, he should bear in mind there were "good white Rhodesians".This meant the likes of David Smith (late), Chris Andersen (late), Dennis Norman and Dr Timothy Stamps.
"But I said I have not run a Government," President Mugabe said.
"So I said stay on for some time (as Governor) so you can usher me into this other sphere. When I made that request, Lord Soames exclaimed three times 'Really, Really, Really' whereupon he swivelled his chair and immediately rang Lord Carrington."
President Mugabe said Lord Carrington told him to "stay on but not for more than three months", a response which made him happy. On a lighter note, President Mugabe said he invited Sir Nicholas to test the seat that his father once occupied, ceding his own chair to him.
"He said, No! It's now your seat," President Mugabe said.
The President said he also talked about the Lancaster House Agreement, the commitment the British Government made in respect of the land question and how the American Jimmy Carter administration had chipped in with assistance.
Unlike in the past where officials wanted to keep their visits under wraps, Sir Nicholas insisted on meeting President Mugabe in the full glare of publicity. He promised to publicise details of the meeting in the British media.
Back to [url= https://www.africa-confidential.com/article-preview/id/2723/Arms_and_the_men ]John Bredenkamp[/url] for a moment...
Investigators are probing multimillion pound payments from Britain through secret accounts to a key ally of President Robert MugabeBritain’s BAE Systems, the world’s fourth biggest arms company, has paid over £25 million (US$49.5 mn.) to a company whose majority Zimbabwean shareholder is a long-time business ally of President Robert Mugabe’s regime. The multiple investigations into BAE’s role in the affair, which appear to be nearing conclusion, are likely to have serious political repercussions in Britain and South Africa.
[b]The recipient of the payments was British Virgin Islands-registered Kayswell Services, whose signatories include majority shareholder John Bredenkamp, Jules Pelissier and Graham Andrews, according to company records seen by Africa Confidential. BAE made the payments in mid-2003 through its Red Diamond Trading subsidiary, also registered in the British Virgin Islands. Within a year, Kayswell had transferred more than £10 mn. to Bredenkamp.[/b]
BAE’s secret agents
[b]Through his network of military equipment companies, such as Aviation Consulting Services and Raceview, Bredenkamp became an important supplier to the Zimbabwe Defence Force and a supporter of Emmerson Mnangagwa, the Chairman of the Joint Operation Command[/b] (AC Vol 49 No 15). Bredenkamp has indefinite leave to remain in Britain. ACS, which is registered in both Britain and Zimbabwe, was the Southern African agent for BAE and Italy’s Agusta military aviation company.
Red Diamond Trading... now that rings a bell