[Closed] Yr9 GCSE options - foreign language necessary

I'm sure when I was in yr9 it was "mandatory" to do at least one language at GCSE. I didn't, I think our school lacked sufficient teachers to actually teach everyone or something so I wrangled my way out of it.

It hasn't disadvantaged me whatsoever, went on to get an MEng in Electronic and Electrical Engineering and the University of Sheffield.

I graduated in 2009 so not particularly recent.

Not sure about my uni, was ages ago, but I don't think they were bothered about my German O level to study physics.

Having said which, I love foreign languages. That feeling you get when you can speak someone else's language better than they can speak yours is brilliant. Or the feeling when you successfully get the message across in a relatively obscure language is great. I'm not much of a thinker TBH but love it. The intellectual process around it is great and I would hate to not have studied french and German.

Having said which, she clearly doesn't have this viewpoint ( like most Brits) and so pushing her into it would probably be counterproductive. If she's not going to make that difficult jump to actually trying to speak to people in their language then it's probably a waste of time.

Focus on the science.

My daughter is being pushed down the Ebac route, and has to do a language as a result. She enjoys French and is good at it, so no real problem, but I understand the issue of it taking away an option.

As she's at a Catholic school, she has to do RE, which has taken away one of her options. Will be an interesting conversation with her tutor next week.

We're not a linguistic family unfortunately. Scientists and stuff, so our preferences probably rub off.

Daughter - year 12 now - didn't take a language, much to my disappointment. It's not held her back (she had as much fun as is possible in a GCSE pandemic year...) and on investigation it was only UCL that needed a language.

Son is now choosing. The school are keen for everyone to do a language. I'd still like him to do one, but I'd prefer him to do further maths/stats/economics/triple science etc

As confirmation

Our members value language skills but there is no universal entry requirement for students to have studied a modern foreign language at GCSE or equivalent

https://www.informedchoices.ac.uk/FAQs

My kids have been learning Spanish since they were 6. A second language improves employment prospects, it makes learning a third language easier and frankly she’ll love being able to communicate when others can’t. She might not realise it now but she’ll thank you in the future.

Don't do it. My son is just about to finish his A-levels and is applying for engineering apprenticeships. The school (and my wife) were very keen on the Ebac route and heavily encouraged him to take French (that he hated up to that point). He eventually agreed and then spent two years hating French at GCSE level. He got 7,8 & 9's at all of his subjects apart from French (he got a 4) and maintains he would have got a much better grade in business studies (the lesson he wanted to do instead).

We filled out an online application last week and he was still moaning about how bad his French grade looks good on his CV!!

My son is very technical like your daughter and she is speaking some sound words believe me!

I had to take a language so sat through of 2 years of Spanish.

Was the only gcse I failed and got an E. These days I honestly wish I had tried harder as I work with a lot of Spanish people but having one E out of 11 gcses has not held me back!

I didn't take a language at school; I'm sure it was compulsory but I hated French and Spanish and struggled with pronunciation. Did this hamper me? No, I have a BSc and MRes and a job i love (not in science). However, my wife (also a scientist: BSc,MSc and PhD) now works for an international organisation. She almost landed a job a job in Suisse and I joined her over there on a recce. I've never felt so embarrassed and ignorant. Yes, 90% spoke pretty English (and French and german). But why don't we? Why do the English just not care? As a parent I encourage my two girls to take a language and we already mix in German and French at home, when they choose their GSCEs i would be disappointed if they didn't choose a language. Its a big world out there and being able to improve your chance of communicating in it has got to be good hasn't it?

I hated languages at school (like my daughter) so didn’t choose any and it didn’t stop me getting into university. I think even UCL let you in without a language but you have to take some extra language classes when you start your degree.

I did subsequently live in Italy for 6-7 months and really enjoyed learning the language. After 6 months I could read the newspaper and could hold basic conversations with the locals. The difference was I had a reason to learn it and was motivated.

I had to take a language GCSE, I was bored of French having done it for 5 years previously so did German instead for something new. I ended up hating it and had no chance of passing(even after many detentions to encourage me to work harder) so was allowed to drop it(but still had to sit quietly in the class). I subsequently really regret that I gave up French and wish I'd continued. Moral of the story is think long and hard about the decision! Knowing other languages can take you to many places in life and the attitude that everyone else speaks English isn't generally appreciated abroad.

I was dubbed a "scientist" and did indeed wind up with a geology degree. My interest in languages that started with choosing to do CSE French instead of O level chemistry (you couldn't do both) proved much more useful and lucrative than the geology. I picked up German and some Spanish too, enough to live comfortably in the countries.

So when junior, who was already bilingual French-English started school, I asked around some other parents and we persuaded the school to offer German. He did German and Spanish and was quite happy about it. To the point he got not just a French Bac but also a German Abitur with the equivalent of straight A stars in both. He's already spent a couple of years in Germany, one of them at the Humbolt. His mates did well too.

It's not about a minor difference in grade in business studies, it's about making more of the the world your oyster. And stimulating parts of your brain that might otherwise just slumber.

Pretty sure languages were mandatory in my day (O levels). I think a language is a good thing to study as part of a broad education (which is what GCSE / O levels are).

I'm an Electronic Engineer, with O level French, which once saved my arse. I used to visit a lot of customers all over the world and present out products on the technical side. 99% of the world does speak English, however not companies in Rouen, France, turned up there once assuming they'd all speak English and no one did, so had to present everything in O level French at zero notice. God knows what they thought of it, must have been terrible....

@Educator nails it. The minor grade increase in business studies means nothing compared to the opportunities languages give.

I’ve lived in Norway and Germany but wish my language skills were better. Languages open doors.

I don’t know anyone who passed a GCSE language qualification and can hold a conversation in that language.

As she’s at a Catholic school, she has to do RE, which has taken away one of her options. Will be an interesting conversation with her tutor next week.

No, I can assure you it won’t. It’s a Catholic school. RE is a compulsory dimension of being in one. It sucks; I know. And it’s worse than useless. But her tutor is not going budge because the school itself can’t budge.

Until faith schools are abolished along with private schools, and everyone has access to equal quality and equal content education, RE it is.

As for languages, although I am strongly pro-MFL, and would love to replace RE with at least one, the idea that universities care about whether or not someone studied one at GCSE is b******s. One year ago, I left a job I had had for fifteen years, which included advising students on Oxbridge applications. Languages never entered into discussions - unless they were directly relevant to a student wanted to apply for.

Their importance and usefulness in life, however, is another matter. But for that there are other means.

A second language improves employment prospects

Not convinced it does really, unless that language is your key skill. The world today looks for specialists, not generalists ( unfortunately 😫)
You'll get a shit hot scientist to do the experiments, get a shithit mathematician to analyse the data and then a billingual dude to translate the synopsis into whatever language it needs to be in.

Interesting split in the comments. The people who are bad at languages, or whose kids hated them ( and did badly at them) saying to drop them.

The people who use foreign languages a lot, and love them, are trying to persuade OP and others to keep the languages on and make a passion from them like the thread polyglots have.....

But they're missing the key point here, which is that OP's kid isn't a polyglot. She doesn't have a knack for languages, she doesn't like them, and she probably wouldn't do that well if forced to take one.

I hated French at school, had to do a gcse in it, and my teacher called my result a miracle.

I bloody love France, attempt to be conversational in it, have lived there and would love to live there again. My lack of fluency has impacted on a job application.

The 'everyone speaks English anyway' attitude needs stamping out, imo. It's a very arrogant view of the world and one which, I reckon, in years to come will reflect badly on those who hold it.

There are many compelling reasons to take a language. I took French because I figured "learning a language" would help with a programming career. Whilst that turned out to be a total misstep and I proved to be rather bad at it, I don't regret that decision for a moment.

However, as good reasons go, "the school is keen" is not one of them. What good is a happy headmaster going to be to her when she's 20?

The top 5 most commonly spoken languages at 1.English(covered)1.132 billion total speakers, 2 Mandarin Chinese 1.117 billion total speakers 3,Hindi 615 million total speakers 4,Spanish 534 million total speakers and 5, French.280 million total speakers.
I think Spanish would be a good language to learn as its close to the UK and given Spanish holiday destinations are popular with the British.
It's also got 43 million speakers in the Americas.

We filled out an online application last week and he was still moaning about how bad his French grade looks good on his CV!!

Tell him to leave it off, if that really bothers him.

The ‘everyone speaks English anyway’ attitude needs stamping out, imo.

Agree completely. And I only speak English.

What are the language teachers like at the school? Does she like them and do they inspire the pupils to learn? In my experience, this goes a huge way as to whether you'll do well with a subject.

I had to do French GCSE at school but my teacher was superb and made studying it so much more interesting than just grinding out verb conjugations each week.

For some reason I still can't fathom I dropped it after GCSE and went down the biology, chemistry, maths, physics route for AS level, hated physics as we were trialling a new syllabus which I just didn't click with, and dropped it after AS, and kept on with bio, chem and maths for A level. I really wish I'd kept going with French.

However, as good reasons go, “the school is keen” is not one of them. What good is a happy headmaster going to be to her when she’s 20?

I think I read somewhere that schools are being measured on the number of kids that do MFL, so maybe they think it reflects better on them.

I actually work in an international company and regularly speak to colleagues in most countries in Europe and a few in China/Taiwan/Korea - the Europeans without exception all speak English fluently, to a way higher standard than GCSE and probably A-Level and better than some English people. The Asians aren’t far behind. English is the international language of business so I’m not sure a GCSE in German/French etc. is actually that useful in a business context, more so perhaps if you are on holiday in some remote part of France, but I’m not sure it warrants 2 years of study.

but I’m not sure it warrants 2 years of study

No GCSE, on its own, is any use. They are building blocks. They are helping you to learn to learn.

I am working through Course Choice with 100s of pupils at the moment. Pick what you are good at or what your KNOW you need to progress in your chosen pathway. If languages are not in that bag don't pick them. At the end of the day the best grades count (along with a bunch of other stuff in some areas, but you still need the best grades).

Aim for the best grades in the subjects that you you're good at and that you need. If you need a subject that your totally crap at, your learning is trying to tell you something. You need to change your learning or change your goal.

For Uni entry go onto UCAS.com and have a look at the entry requirements for course your kid might be interested in. I'd be very surprised if any non-languages based course had a stipulation for a language at GCSE. English or Maths, yes, but not a modern language.

I am not saying languages are not useful/rewarding/stimulating or door-opening, just for meeting academic entry requirements, there are subjects you MUST have (ideally with the highest grades) and other subjects. The other subjects should chosen as the ones you can get the best grades in.

If you need a subject that your totally crap at, your learning is trying to tell you something. You need to change your learning or change your goal.

Lots of kids are “totally crap” at lots of things they “need”. Schools and teachers aren’t just there to reinforce skills and understanding that comes easily to pupils. Most kids find MFL hard.

I'm surprised its not mandatory. It was for me and think it was for my son. It sounds like you are looking for people to reinforce your view/decision that its of low value and unnecessary. I could certainly help argue that cause, although I think languages are more useful than you give credit for, and I doubt anyone at 13/14 is able to tell whether they actually enjoy languages from sitting in a class of other 12/13 year olds who are grudgingly being forced to recite foreign words. There are some weird science/engineering niches, like becoming a patent attorney, where a language is essentially mandatory. International travel is common among scientific researchers and engineers often work across countries - whilst the science is usually in English the feeling of inclusion when you can have a coffee or a beer with someone in their own language is a big difference. I think its also quite good to learn stuff outside your comfort zone (which may be what those Russell group uni's are looking for - if you are good and maths and science, you can easily fill your timetable with subjects that you find easy, then you get to Uni and someone wants you to think differently its quite a shock. And certainly as an employer, whilst we don't look for languages, I can see that those who have a "more rounded" beginning have a different set of personal/social skills. I can't say if that is cause or effect, but I'm pretty sure reinforcing viewing things only through a technical window is probably not good for developing people with good empathy, writing skills or compassion.

However if you are trying to find a way to make a 13/14 year old engage with the language then consider your own motivation:

I did subsequently live in Italy for 6-7 months and really enjoyed learning the language. After 6 months I could read the newspaper and could hold basic conversations with the locals. The difference was I had a reason to learn it and was motivated.

Is it feasible for you to do a deal that if she takes the language you'll go visit the country for a couple of weeks (or find an exchange etc).

Ultimately, whether you do a language at GCSE should be a choice, depending on the child, not a requirement. Yes, you might have a situation where being forced to select it ignites a love of languages (but one which hasn't been ignited thus far?) - but I don't really think that justifies mandating it for the other 99.99%

I did my GCSEs in 1994ish, and this was a debate then too - with some children's parents insisting that a language was not mandatory, and the school having to capitulate.

I did French GCSE, despite having had lessons for years before and showing no real aptitude for it. I think I got a D in the end - I can't really remember. I've worked for a number of Swiss and French Pharma companies, and felt the usual pang of shame where a room full of French/swiss people are all speaking in English expressly for your benefit - but the reality is that you would have to be fully bilingual to be able to keep-up in a professional environment.

I'm 43 and to-this-day remain annoyed at the appalling standard of career advice that I was given at school (and through 6th form) - any advice re: "needing" a language to pass some imagined basic employability test is just nonsense, as was needing it to get into your Uni of choice.

She is more interested in science/technology and doesn’t see the point in studying a language as it will take away another choice and “everyone speaks English anyway” – her words not mine, but I see her point.

To be fair, the British don't value engineering either so 🤷‍♂️.

To quote a German friend:

"In Germany when you introduce yourself as an engineer you get invited in to meet the Daughter.

In Britain you get invited in to meet the washing machine".

German was the one subject I didn't do well in at school unfortunately. Which is a PITA as German Process Engineer salaries are currently about double the UK (and they still have a shortage it seems based on the recruiters in my inbbox).

Doesn't mean that will still be the same in 10 years.

Although having said that, my most useful A-level was probably Geography anyway. You can be great with the maths and science, but it's pretty useless if you can't write a coherent structurered essay (I still mentally refer back to the same menomics and structures I learnt then in professional exams now!).

The people who use foreign languages a lot, and love them, are trying to persuade OP and others to keep the languages on and make a passion from them like the thread polyglots have…..

I would say a language was the missed important thing i've never learned.

Looking back now i've been able relearn everything at school but languages get harder.

At the very least its an opportunity to have a break from science based stuff, its potentially an opportunity to study abroad for a semester and its a great opportunity to hit on the opposite sex.

If your daughters attitude us "everyone speaks english anyway" she sounds exactly the kind if person who might benefit from learning a world exists outside her own little world*.

* Like most of the population, christ we're lazy.

France, turned up there once assuming they’d all speak English and no one did

Or, no one said they did. Standard French approach to embarrass the English.

Languages are useful, and the earlier in life you learn them the easier it is. Learning anything is good training for your brain. But trying to learn something you're not interested in is difficult. I was at school in the 1960s and most teachers just told you to learn stuff. A few made you interested in stuff and then learning it was easy.

In my opinion, a language broadens your horizons and widens your general knowledge and the ways that your brain can work.

I suspect the school is keen for her to do the language because the number of students with passes in key subjects can be added to their baccalaureate (ebacc) statistics, the science, maths, English + humanities + language combo. Do note that schools are allowed to make certain subjects compulsory if they wish to. That in itself shouldn't push her decision, but the reason that people are encouraged to do the baccalaureate (a broad range of subjects) is worth her consideration - why is the Government suggesting this broad range is a good thing? Certainly for me, in what most people would consider a high-flying science job I think studying a language is a big plus (I am a post-doctoral researcher at a University who did 9 typical GCSEs and 3 A-levels in Maths, Geography and Media Studies, hopefully demonstrating that course choice isn't the be-all-and-end-all). As a data point, my partner who is an Engineer won't seriously consider some great opportunities, because we would have to move to Germany and the fear / hassle of not being able to converse properly at work and socially means it wouldn't be enjoyable, it would be stressful. There is a reason that the 'upper end' of British Uni's like Oxbridge and the US system go towards a more general, broad degree make-up - US degree systems go for a major/minor and offer a really broad range of modules in their first few years as a breadth of skills is seen favourably.

Whilst I agree with SaxonRider that languages can be learnt later in life, it is far easier for some people if you have had structured learning in childhood. Your daughter is likely to come across people from other parts of the world is their professional life and if they are high-flying, quite likely will be travelling for work, and the ability to travel independently and pick up other languages enough to get by is a big plus. For a course with people interaction that is very competitive like medicine, when there is very little to separate people I guess a University might actually look at the lack of language negatively. Especially if they asked why she didn't take it and she said something like "well everyone speaks my language" lol! (Note, even in England not everyone speaks English fluently!)

Is she considering Uni (i.e. is she doing well) and what kind of subjects / career is she thinking at the moment? The real question is what would she do instead? And at GCSE level would that really have any impact on her life chances either? If she is doing well at school then I honestly don't think it will make any difference (whether she choose a language or something like computational studies, whether she passes or fails in either) provided she has good passes at the core subjects.

Both daughters at Russel Group university, neither took a foreign language GCSE.

Do universities really frown upon students that haven’t done it?

I very much doubt it. Sounds more like the school is trying to make sure that the language teachers have big enough classes to justify their presence.

Having said that, at GCSE a slightly broader range of subjects is a good thing, and there is no harm in doing a language, unless it stops her doing something she really wants to do instead. But if she's dead set against it, that could translate <ahem> into reduced effort, in which case it is really a waste of time.

If she's interested, and going to enjoy it and learn how to speak enough to be useful on holiday, which might then develop into an ability to study or work in that country then yes, i would appreciate it as an adult even if i didn't use it in work.

If its a chore, no point at all.

I did Spanish GCSE, because Spanish is more commonly used around the world then most other things. i dont remember a single word

i give french a go, when weve been on holiday in franceland, and even if you're not very good i think it's appreciated that you tried.
French might be useful if she ever wanted to work in Canadia too.

Dont be that prick who just talks slow and louder.

Scientist type here. Also went to a Catholic school, so there was the mandatory RE taking away another choice. I kept French to GCSE but managed to forget enough of it that it was useless by the time I could afford to travel (post degree).

What a modern language choice for me was, a statement that I didn't believe myself tied to this little island and that I could and would travel and learn wherever I wanted. Have done in the past, will do again, but probably not France. :-p

“In Germany when you introduce yourself as an engineer you get invited in to meet the Daughter.

In Britain you get invited in to meet the washing machine”.

We had this in Turkey on a random motorbike tour. Stopped somewhere and got chatting to the owner of a restaurant and he asked what we did, I was an Engineer and my friend a teacher; his eyes lit up and got introduced to the daughters! Funny how different countries value different things....

The people who use foreign languages a lot, and love them, are trying to persuade OP and others to keep the languages on and make a passion from them like the thread polyglots have…..

But they’re missing the key point here, which is that OP’s kid isn’t a polyglot. She doesn’t have a knack for languages, she doesn’t like them, and she probably wouldn’t do that well if forced to take one.

That's certainly one way of looking at it.

Another might be people with more experience than a 15 year old and offering their advice on how useful languages are from the perspective of someone with life experience post GCSE.....

Learning anything is good training for your brain. But trying to learn something you’re not interested in is difficult.

This. But the things that you’re interested in and aren’t difficult can be learnt away from the classroom, or later in life. In my (no doubt old fashioned opinion) Schools should be encouraging and, you know, teaching pupils to improve in the areas they are weak, not having them specialising too narrowly for exam success or possible career. No one would be having this discussion about English, Maths or Science. Our secondary schools allows you to drop everything, just about… we did the parent thing and insisted both of ours still did one humanities and kept a language. The eldest moaned about doing History… but now she’s at Uni, she says the essay writing skills she developed doing a humanities subject at a younger age helps her every week. The younger one is struggling through with his French… he may never use it in anger… but 14 is not the age to shut down on a key area of learning because you find it hard. Very few would do MFL at GCSE given that approach. That’s a nation of people then with very little real concept of how languages differ, or what they have in common.

Or, no one said they did. Standard French approach to embarrass the English.

Not my experience at all, I normally find they won't speak French to me and we always have these bi-lingual convesations where I speak 100% French and they reply 100% English and neither will comrpomise. Occasionally you get older people who don't speak much English, then it's all in French, which I much prefer.

That’s a nation of people then with very little real concept of how languages differ, or what they have in common.

A writer, Pruvost, on France Inter claimed 65% of English is derived from French. He gave examples of how French words made it into English:

Une malle (as opposed to un mâle) is a box used for transporting things. Things sent across the channel went by boats in malles. Including the post (letters and stuff, the paper ones not individual characters which aren't human). So malle become synonymous with post and as the English can't spell they transformed it to mail.

If you're amused by this sort of thing:

https://www.tallandier.com/livre/la-story-de-la-langue-francaise/

I don’t know anyone who passed a GCSE language qualification and can hold a conversation in that language.

I've got a GCSE in spanish (A grade). I could barely ask for a beer now. A language was mandatory at my school, and spanish was the easiest.
Plus the thinking that almost an entire continent speaks it, the economic rise of south america which is imminent, still, apparently.

Now that I like skiing and MTBing, I really wish I did French, however, 11 months of half arsed duolingo I'm sure I'm now better at French than I ever was at Spanish.
Which is still terrible.
I'm ashamed by the poor quality of foreign language skills from the english in general, and I'm well aware that I am part of that too.

Also - I'm a sciency person too, I had to work harder in Spanish than my next two hardest subjects combined.

All in all, a fair waste of schooling for far too little to show for it, there are much better ways to learn a language.

A question for those who did a language at school and consider it a waste of time because they can't speak it now. How would you get on if you had to redo all your exams? Would the result in the language(s) be any worse than in other subjects. I reckon my strongest subject at 16, maths, would be my weakest today. Maths was the first subject I couldn't help junior with, however I can still hold my ground in economics and my Spanish is better than his.

On the basis of that I shouldn't have bothered with maths at school.

I don’t know anyone who passed a GCSE language qualification and can hold a conversation in that language.

I presume you meant to say I don't know anyone who passed a GCSE language qualification and then stopped studying languages who can hold a conversation in that language?

The same is true for all subjects though. But I'll bet you don't find many people who didn't even study GCSE level languages who are now fluent...

I could barely ask for a beer now.

Sounds just like me. Basic food and drink ordering only when abroad. And I can't even do that in the one language I did at GCSE... German. I'm as far from a linguist as you can get.

But I'll repeat what I put before...

No GCSE, on its own, is any use. They are building blocks. They are helping you to learn to learn.

I'd have dropped languages at any age I could... 14, 12... but now I'm glad I was made to keep a wider focus at that age. Narrow it down at A-level or other post GCSE study/development.

Not my experience at all, I normally find they won’t speak French to me

Likewise.

I guess to a large extent it depends where you are, but I broadly found the same. I wanted to try to speak 20-year old GCSE French partly for the challenge and partly because making the effort felt like the right thing to do, rather than being the stereotypical Brit shouting "OI GARKON, AVAY VOO ANY CHIPS?" But two sentences in they'd almost invariably switch to fluent English, which was kind and all and made things a lot easier, but I really should've learned the French for "I'm trying to practice my French".

I did have one memorable exchange in a random bakery in the middle of nowhere, I don't think the owner had even seen an English person before let alone spoken the language so it wholly down to me. I managed to pull together sufficient pigeon French to place an order, I was quite pleased with that.

I’ve got a GCSE in spanish (A grade). I could barely ask for a beer now.

I think that's the only Spanish sentence I actually know!

30+ years in a very technical field here and I have used my languages (all of which GCSE level or worse) at work.

It gives you that extra dimension, whether it's putting doubt in a colleague's mind about how much you know so they stop having HUGELY LOUD phonecalls in their native language with their sister in Manchester, whether it's skimming through case notes and noticing some basic "does it do X if you switch Y on?" has been translated as "Does it do X if you switch Y *off*?", whether it's buttering up a team that owes you nothing by giving their language a go even if it's v v basic stuff like, "Is Bert in the office? We've got a meeting now...Can you tell him? Thanks!" Or having the confidence to look after yourself at a conference abroad.

I also used what I'd learned on actual product related stuff, like noticing that a translation looks off, or understanding why there's an issue translating a form layout, or understanding you can't (e.g) lower-case a Japanese character and you certainly can't lowercase the first half of one!

Whether the GCSE as such is needed absolutely to get on a course - probably not though.

However. I've personally used my rubbish foreign language abilities much more than any of my technical qualifications, even maths A level. It doesn't really date and with a bit of buffing it's surprising how much can come back even after decades.

So I'd say, consider the two things separately. If she's not keen on the GCSE, after due consideration, then fair enough but bribe her to teach herself the language of her choice on her own time.

Remember it's not just "speaking French" (say), it's learning *how" to learn a foreign language, learning how language itself *works*, finding out how language and culture intertwine (important for business etiquette...).

I kind of think a well rounded education needs it.

I will add, on a ladies specific topic, having enough French to (with the aid of Google Translate) find an open pharmacy on a Sunday and purchase the right medication for a most uncomfortable and urgent personal medical problem (#lesdawsonmoment) and understand why there was an extra 5€ charge... I was most grateful to Mrs F (who may or may not still be alive now!) my secondary school French teacher....

A question for those who did a language at school and consider it a waste of time because they can’t speak it now. How would you get on if you had to redo all your exams?

Give me a week to cram, I reckon I could do it. History and English Lit likely the hardest to do this with.

There are some things that just require memorising, although I guess you could say that a language is no different.

Only when you take a subject to A level and University do you realise how laughably little content there was at GCSE level for most subjects which is kind of understandable when you think that kids have to divide thier time between 10-12 of the them.

I should add to the above, I am a fan of learning languages, in case anyone thinks I am against it. I just think it is done particlarly badly in schools currently, and we start far too late.

Additional story, when revising for my Spanish GCSE, part of the speaking portion just required you to say a passage you had pre-learnt and memorised.
My mum helped me learn it, and got so exasperated by my general incompetence with the language (she spoke no Spanish, but did French, German and Russian at school) that I still remember he saying that I was so bad that if I got an A* she would write to the exam board and ask them to lower my grade.

remember he saying that I was so bad that if I got an A* she would write to the exam board and ask them to lower my grade.

My french teacher caught me in the corridor after my GCSE results and said, in her thick french accent 'at Tom, you got an A - zat is a miracle!' and my dad genuinely asked me if I'd collected the correct results.

How I got an A is anyone's guess - I was utterly terrible at French and had never been (tho as I said earlier in this thread, I now love French/France to bits and would do anything to be fluent and live there again).

We’ll give it some thought, she actually didn’t do too badly in French on her last report, I think it’s just there are other GCSEs she would prefer. The other option is she does 10 instead of 9 but she’d get reduced hours in science.

I’d also heard people talking about the English baccalaureate and did a bit of Googling at it seems this requires a language.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-baccalaureate-ebacc/english-baccalaureate-ebacc

First time I've heard of Ebacc, looks good for most of the students most of the time.

I will add, on a ladies specific topic, having enough French to (with the aid of Google Translate) find an open pharmacy on a Sunday and purchase the right medication for a most uncomfortable and urgent personal medical problem (#lesdawsonmoment) and understand why there was an extra 5€ charge… I was most grateful to Mrs F (who may or may not still be alive now!) my secondary school French teacher….

Reminds me of trying to get some drugs from a pharmacie in 'bleau and trying to explain that the wife was breast feeding so need to be aware of what it contains. Have to be honest I ended up miming it, but now never forget ( not that it'll be any use whatsoever in future "Elle attend le baby" or something.

But two sentences in they’d almost invariably switch to fluent English, which was kind and all and made things a lot easier,

You're just not trying hard enough. That's the game, continuing in their language until the other person breaks or you can't find the words. I've only ever won in German, french and occasionally Turkish ( not because im any good, more because their English was even worse)

The weirdest one was in an Italian restaurant in Wales when the waiter started chatting to [up] my missus in German. The conversation went on a bit and then afterwards I asked for the bill in Italian. He replied in German to my missus that he didn't speak Italian as he was Turkish. So I switched and asked for the bill in Turkish instead.
He was completely flummoxed that I had understood everything that was said and then managed to switch from his second language to his first.

Love speaking foreign languages...

( Yeah, I know CSB, sorry)

The other option is she does 10 instead of 9 but she’d get reduced hours in science.

I only did Latin O level as it meant I could drop Rugby. Hated sport at school.

I wouldn't get too worried about GCSE subjects anyway, there's plenty of time and opportunity for her life to go in any direction she chooses. I'm sure we all know people who went to university to study a niche and carefully chosen subject only to end up in a completely different career path.

She is more interested in science/technology and doesn’t see the point in studying a language as it will take away another choice and “everyone speaks English anyway” – her words not mine, but I see her point.

All the science is moving to Europe, albeit slowly - and the pay is higher over here.

She won't be respected if she doesn't know one of the main languages, eg German.

Your daughters age is the perfect age to learn a language and avoid becoming a typical pig ignorant Brit, science can come later.

I say that as someone in Pharma.

“In Germany when you introduce yourself as an engineer you get invited in to meet the Daughter."

My understanding is that in most countries "Engineer" is a protected term, like Doctor, or Architect. You have to have completed specific learning to quite a high level and be registered with a governing body.

You cant be a "TV Engineer", you would be a Technician
(as i understand it/so ive been told)

Basically tho the younger you are the better the language sticks so GCSE or not (separate issue) it's in her interest to study language (s) now.

Google Goggles

In 20/10/5/2 years time someone will talk to you in a foreign language and your Google Goggles will instantly translate and broadcast into the ear piece.

However, there is probably a very good argument for learning a language for the sake of the actual learning rather than the end result. It, no doubt, broadens the way you learn and gets you thinking in a different manner, which I'd imagine is a good thing.

Oh and Morecash .... RE as a compulsory... My understanding is that RE is really quite easy and is taken to get the actual number of good GCSE grades up. There is also a lot of philosophy to it.

Goods luck

I have a degree in German. Why did I pursue a language? At 15 I went on my first skiing holiday to Austria and loved it. That was the life for me. So I did German A-Level and went on to University. How has it benefitted me, or otherwise?

During my year out in Germany, I spent the 2 month semester break in St Anton working and skiing (and drinking). It was great fun, the best of times. After University, I went back to St. Anton. This time,  I got the only job with a British holiday company that required German language - I was the Hotel receptionist. It was the most boring, lonely job in the company. Non-German speakers worked in the bar, ski guiding, waiting - all the fun jobs. The boredom and "loneliness" of the job triggered drinking beyond any scale I've known before or since. If I'd been more grown up about it, there were better options. But the lifestyle dictated... After that winter, I worked in the German speaking Dolomites for a summer. Again, the best of times.

After that, I could have stayed working in the tourism industry and arguably should have to follow my dreams. Instead, a bit of a shakedown by my Dad at the time for "bumming about" made me look for "proper" jobs and I got on a graduate IT recruitment scheme, nothing to do with German but of course wouldn't have got it without a degree. I looked for jobs with German - they consisted largely of low paid, IT helpdesk work servicing German speaking countries. And I'd have had to move to London / home counties.

Since then, I haven't spoken a needed word of German. It is now a comedy party piece to rattle off a few phrases in a parody accent. I remember more than enough to get by when on holiday, drunken conversations with taxi drivers are the extent of it.

Would I do a language if I had my time again? No. Unless you have a clearly identified need for it in a future career, any talk about "employers will look favourably on a language" is bollocks. "They all speak English" is pretty much true. I never went anywhere with German and didn't feel like my German-speaking pals couldn't easily switch into English to a standard I was never going to achieve with German. I had one summer job after Uni when I was asked to speak with a German supplier. The product was so niche that getting to grips with it in English was hard enough and after half a phone call trying to converse on the subject in German, we switched to English and that was that.

I could have followed a different path, used my German and be in a totally different life right now. Any of my Uni colleagues who I know use their language are either teachers or live in the country of their language. To think it enhances your career prospects in any other given path... I haven't seen any evidence of that.

Learning a 2nd language at an earlier age (4.5yrs creates connections in the brain that can hel raise results in STem subjects (theoretically) but can also interfere with 1st language grammar.

Learning French, oder Deutsches, seems pretty useless in the global community. But since GCSEs are a fart in the wind as you progress through FE and HE, the value of learning a 2nd language are more than "I an speak/lisen/read/write a bit of it". With language comes culture. All education should be good, if pathway, and education opens doors. Only 0.5% of undergraduates leave the UK for work every year, with slightly less than that returning.

“I don’t know anyone who passed a GCSE language qualification and can hold a conversation in that language.”

For counter argument, I took GCSE French and didn’t use it for five years. A trip to Algeria where the language choices were Arabic (not a word) or dig into the recesses of my brain for residual French. It’s amazing what comes back when you need it.

I went and did a summer school in Perpignan the year after to improve it - partly because I was amazed so much had stuck and wanted to consolidate.

Last month I had a work conversation with a French client about transport data where it was handy that we were both prepared to use our passable second language skills.

I’d say do it - you never know where life will take you and having exercised that bit of your brain lays a foundation that will make your horizons bigger.

Jimmy's long response above is spot on. Absolutely excellent.

People say that 'Nation x are rude' and I bet its because they didn't even start with a basic greeting or use thank you.
To not even try to speak another language in another country is poor, no two ways about it - the issue for the UK (and USA etc) is that the world 2nd language is English so it's such an easy choice for everyone else. We struggle to choose and as a result end up with a varying degree of lots of other languages.
OP, I'd say french if she really needs to decide because she'll have done more of that in school than anything else.

I have an Italian Father In Law and during lockdown I've been trying to get better at italian but it's a slog, I'm still stuck at little more than yes/no/beer, whereas if I got a book on how to speak french I could get a lot of the school skill back in place and be a lot further ahead than italian, partly through school retained knowledge but also having been on holiday in france and used it more than other places.

I spoke to the school and they are still really insistent she does it. I’m concerned it comes down to their ebacc ratings and also that Ofsted mark schools down for low language uptake rather than it being the best option for my daughter.

I also wonder if it is to do with scheduling the timetable as they are saying they expect all the brighter kids to do a MFL while the lower attaining kids are let off the hook. Maybe it messes up the streams for English/Maths etc. If they are expecting the brighter kids to be in MFL lessons at certain times in the week?

I studied German and French GCSE. I don't recall it being at the expense of anything else I wanted to do, but I took 11 GCSE's.

I didn't study either language out of any burning desire or planned career path but I'm glad I did for many reasons - a few of which are:

1) The French and German exchanges were great experiences
2) In my 20's, I got a job at a company with a large German site. Although they all spoke excellent English, the limited German I could recall was genuinely appreciated by my colleagues and helped when I used to travel to Germany on a regular basis (particularly with local Taxi drivers)
3) Later in my career, I ended up working on a joint venture with an Austrian company. Their English was not excellent, but between my limited German and their limited English we were able to hold conversations
4) I was an auditor for a while and several suppliers were French companies. Again, my limited conversational French was surprisingly useful

I spoke to the school and they are still really insistent she does it.

Is this new policy, or when you chose your child's school, did they say at that point what they expect of their students (bright ones have to keep to a broad curriculum and not drop the subjects they find hard).

I spoke to the school and they are still really insistent she does it

She should do what is right for her, not for the school.

If there is no demand she does one, only a request, then don't put one down. If that's what she wants, obviously.

As mentioned, we're at the same stage. The school 'wants' him to do a language, but until it's 'must' there are other subjects more suited to him

And I realise the benefits of a MFL; our office is mostly French, with large numbers of Spanish and German.

Is this new policy, or when you chose your child’s school, did they say at that point what they expect of their students (bright ones have to keep to a broad curriculum and not drop the subjects they find hard).

I think this is new as they admitted they recently identified the numbers doing ebacc was low and wanted to get the numbers up. It’s not really a case of not wanting to do something that is hard, it’s about having other subjects she prefers and will likely do better in and are more aligned with her future career aspirations.

'I could barely ask for a beer'
Careful not to confuse 'caña' with 'coño'.

Careful not to confuse ‘caña’ with ‘coño’.

Particularly if it's a waitress serving you.