You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I keep hearing on here about these "centrists." Who are they, exactly?
There have been plenty of people happy to call them Centrists on here in many discussions from time to time.
Because, (and I have empathy here) they believed this to be a form of lefty-moderation. (without understanding they were working within the right-wing construct of the economy; markets etc, inequality, OBR technocracy etc) Anyone who was paying attention to politics across the world could see this one coming, and could see the right-wing mugging game that some Centrists were hood-winked into.
And whilst I could take a guess who leans that way - I wouldn't be so rude as to call them a number of 30 or 40 or whatever us on the left are called. To be fair some Centrists totally get that the economy can't go on like this but seem baffled there might be a better way. It's known as T.I.N.A. and has been pushing against left-wing economics for years now so Centrists got suckered in here that the status-quo economic models were correct. (which is a bit on the nose given the lack of papers supporting neo-liberal framing.) Well the trouble is they just simply ignored poor public outcomes and started listening to IFS muffins.
But then don't complain when you end up with just raving righty political outcomes!
I expect over time Centrism will become the new out of favour political embarrasment and maybe being moderate shall be the get out clause.
We’re all centrists in a mixed economy. You can throw the name at anyone or anything.
I’m left wing, but accept that capitalism is here to stay, evil or otherwise (and it tends to the former without protections in place). Removal of capitalism and replacing it with complete centralised state control has also tended towards evil as well of course. Perhaps there’s a way through the, er, middle of that conundrum? Liberal social democracy? We’re tending away from that in much of Europe, with deliberate pressure from both the USA and Russia.
We’re all centrists in a mixed economy. You can throw the name at anyone or anything.
I’m left wing, but accept that capitalism is here to stay, evil or otherwise (and it tends to the former without protections in place).
Doesn't mean you support the righty ideals of Centrism at all.
I mean it appears to me if Starmer's government is supposed to be Centrist - then it's delusional as it's stacked to be right-wing.
The minute you decide finances are tight - you are a neoliberal becuase it plays into that economic environment and rotates all its failings (lack of growth, poor distribution, poor ineqaulity, shoddy services and bullshit jobs.)
I’m left wing, but accept that capitalism is here to stay, evil
Maybe capitalism in some form but neolibralism is not going to survive. Nothing lasts forever.
For the love of gods at least come up with a new nickname. "Magic Grandad" was genuinely hilarious when you first coined it, about ten years ago.
The Daily Telegraph still think it's hilarious funny (although apparently Corbyn is no laughing matter) and I think binners is probably just one heartbeat away from your average Telegraph reader.
Yesterday's Daily Telegraph headline :
Maybe to a point. But only in so far as any political movement covers several areas of political ideals.
I mean is Reform Centrist - they seem to grab and pull from whatever wing they see fit to suit the voting intention - bit like Labour.
I'd put myself close to Green/Left ideals - but I'm pretty low on being an eco-warrior. I've just come back from a transatlantic flight FFS. But overall I'd prefer to live in their version of the world etc. Many of us understand the contradictions and fail purity tests whatever that means.
However, Centrist goverments do lean right on the economy so that marks them out for me at least as a disaster.
the righty ideals of Centrism.
Well it's out there. We have one of those in government. TINA.
I don’t consider myself a “Centrist”, but I’m pretty sure I’d fail the purity tests of anyone who throws that word around as an insult on a regular basis.
I don't see Centrism - especialiy given it's taken the one opportunity we had for good progressive governance - and totally ****ed it up - should escape huge amounts of insults. Labour and Centrism deserve every last ounce of criticism if after one year they made a path for Reform like they did.
The staggering bit for me is the total lack of reflection on how terrible things have got becuase of Centrism. It fails to push back at the thing it pretends to want to stop.
I would say the evidence bears it out or we would be living in a better world and not pretending capitalism is the only option - based on purely public purpose.
2% more than Corbyn's worse result isn't exactly great, nor is a quarter of a million votes less than his Corbyn's worse result, so thank **** for the vagaries of the widely discredited British first-past-the-post system because that is all the Starmerites have to trumpet.
Remind me, how many general elections did Corbyn win? He only had Mrs May or clown johnson to beat and still couldnt manage it. It doesnt matter how many votes you get if you still lose.
Binners is right,winning is everything.That way you can watch pensioners freeze to death and attack the most vulnerable of the poor
Well call me a stereotypical Centrist Dad, but I believe there is a sensible point on the spectrum between "naked populism to win power so you can watch pensioners freeze to death" and "eternal smug opposition unwilling and unable to effect change". Some other middle class sellout once said "The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point, however, is to change it".
Let's see at which end of the spectrum Your Party end up at in due course.
Anyone who doesn't support either violent revolution, or the radical overthrow of multi-party democracies via some other means to replace them with either outright fascism, or authoritarian rule is by definition; a centrist. So if you want PR not FPTP you're a centrist, if you want there to be a choice of religion, but but nothing state sanctioned, you're a centrist, if you want a welfare state paid for by taxation of the wealthy and corporations... If you don't want to live in either soviet-era Russia or the John Birch Society's vision of the American future, guess what?
Anything else is just comment and hedging your bet.
I keep hearing on here about these "centrists." Who are they, exactly?
Just on here ? It is a term very widely used in the media to denote a particular political position, in the same way that Tory, or Socialist, or far-right, or communist, are used. It's a political label.
If you are a centrist I can't for the life of me understand why you would be offended by being called one. After all no one expects a Tory to be offended if you call them a Tory, and I am certainly not offended if I am called a commie.
I can however see how someone might be offended by the term if they were not actually a centrist. For example I would take it as an insult to be called me a centrist in the same way that calling Sir Keir Starmer a communist would probably be designed as an insult.
As to what the term actually means it is just a fairly recent new fancy way to describe what was formally described as "moderates", eg "Labour Party moderates" have become "Labour Party centrists".
And the reason for the change? Well I am not entirely sure but I suspect that it is because as the political crisis within Western liberal democracies deepens offering yourself as a "moderate" doesn't exactly inspire confidence that you have fully grasped the urgency of the problem.
"Centrist" sounds less docile and accepting of the status quo whilst conjuring up an image of rejecting both right and left extremes and coming up with some sort of radical "third way".
I keep hearing on here about these "centrists." Who are they, exactly?
Just on here ? It is a term very widely used in the media to denote a particular political position, in the same way that Tory, or Socialist, or far-right, or communist, are used. It's a political label.
If you are a centrist I can't for the life of me understand why you would be offended by being called one. After all no one expects a Tory to be offended if you call them a Tory, and I am certainly not offended if I am called a commie.
I can however see how someone might be offended by the term if they were not actually a centrist. For example I would take it as an insult to be called me a centrist in the same way that calling Sir Keir Starmer a communist would probably be designed as an insult.
As to what the term actually means it is just a fairly recent new fancy way to describe what was formally described as "moderates", eg "Labour Party moderates" have become "Labour Party centrists".
And the reason for the change? Well I am not entirely sure but I suspect that it is because as the political crisis within Western liberal democracies deepens offering yourself as a "moderate" doesn't exactly inspire confidence that you have fully grasped the urgency of the problem.
"Centrist" sounds less docile and accepting of the status quo whilst conjuring up an image of rejecting both right and left extremes and coming up with some sort of radical "third way".
I strongly reject your definition there.
I call myself centrist because of you asked me a thousand different questions regarding my political beliefs, some would be left, some would be a right, some would be more liberal and some would be more authoritarian.
Centrism isn’t one position, it's the net average result of many slightly differing positions, depending on the questions posed.
Calling it anything else or attempting to label it as a defined political movement is simply wrong, and is only spoken of in that way by the ill informed or those wanting to deceive.
Calling it anything else or attempting to label it as a defined political movement is simply wrong
Who the hell has defined it as a political movement? I said that it is another term for "moderate". I even spelt it out by pointing out that "Labour Party moderate" has become "Labour Party centrist"
It's a political label not a political movement and that is exactly how the term is used across the media.
Calling it anything else or attempting to label it as a defined political movement is simply wrong
Who the hell has defined it as a political movement? I said that it is another term for "moderate". I even spelt it out by pointing out that "Labour Party moderate" has become "Labour Party centrist"<
Erm you just did. Lol
"It is a term very widely used in the media to denote a particular.."
It's not particular at all.
For example if you ask me if I think we should have a national health service and a police force, I'd say yes to both.. that's a right wing answer and a left wing answer.
Does that make me left wing or right wing?
Clearly not.
So what does it make me, if not centrist?
That you and others choose to manipulate the word for your own narrative is simply irrelevant, and tiresome.
Erm you just did. Lol
Erm no I have not defined the term centrist as a political movement I have defined it as another word for "moderate " LOL
I use the term in exactly the same context as newspapers, TV news readers, etc use it. And if that winds you up you must be a very angry man LOL
I appreciate that there is very little cost involved in people signing up to find out more about this but in well under 48 hours they’ve had more than 400,000 people sign up to find out more.
If that were to translate into members (when it’s possible) that would easily make them bigger than any of the other political parties in the UK.
Erm you just did. Lol
Erm no I have not defined the term centrist as a political movement I have defined it as another word for "moderate " LOL
I use the term in exactly the same context as newspapers, TV news readers, etc use it. And if that winds you up you must be a very angry man LOL
Not angry, just bemused by the idiocy or purposeful misdirection of some.
So do tell, rather than parroting what you see in your chosen media! how would you define centrist?
If that were to translate into members (when it’s possible) that would easily make them bigger than any of the other political parties in the UK.
So all the Momentum 3 quid trots who colonised the Labour Party under Milliband, to vote for Jezza, now get a cut price alternative for 3 quid less?
At the time they were endlessly banging on about this making it the largest mass-membership of any political party in Europe.
And what did that achieve exactly?
Well there was the Brexit-enabling, Theresa Mays election victory, Boris Johnson’s election victory with an enormous majority, the worst electoral defeat in Labours history, a lot of placards and online petitions and erm… no, I think that pretty much covers it
it’ll just be exactly what it was before. A particularly large 6th form common room
’Your’ Common Room
It sounds like this new party will be a complete failure binners, that will be a huge relief for Downing Street.
Btw I was wondering, are you still sticking to your prediction that Reform UK won't be around by the time of the next general election?
Only the very latest opinion poll gives Reform UK a 14 point lead over Labour and every single opinion poll since mid-April has put them in the lead, so I was wondering when are they likely to collapse? Any ideas?
Given the state of the political climate everywhere at the moment, Christ only knows what it’ll look like in 4 years time.
Tommy Robinson might be 20 points ahead in the polls? Rylan Clark might be the PM, leading a cabinet made up entirely of former Radio 2 DJ’s? We might all be wandering around a post-apocalyptic wasteland beating each other to death for the last tin of spam? HS2 might have made it north of Watford? Who knows? 🤷♂️
I really doubt Starmer or anyone else in Labour is very worried about this. They might even welcome it as a few of the perpetual malcontents might jump ship and stop undermining the government from the inside.
As for the alleged membership numbers, no different any other Internet poll, click bait froth and ultimately meaningless.
I really doubt Starmer or anyone else in Labour is very worried about this.
I suspect you are very right. Starmer seems hugely unbothered by the crisis facing Labour. I am sure he believes that if he makes the odd racist speech and reactionary comment everything will be alright on the night. Besides, he's got a lucrative post-prime ministerial career to look forward to.
The latest opinion poll puts Labour on 20%. When Labour were polling those sorts of numbers under Corbyn a sense of panic gripped the party as it signaled inevitable election defeat. But now......crisis? what crisis??
And what did that achieve exactly?
Well now the grown ups have “won”. The achievements are non-stop. Remind me what they are again? If Labour are just the same as the Tories (and they are, to all intents and purposes) then surely it’s only positive to have someone make a case for something different? The ideas may not penetrate straight away (people will have their own little obsessions) but it’s better to have them on the table than not.
And what did that achieve exactly?
Well now the grown ups have “won”. The achievements are non-stop. Remind me what they are again? If Labour are just the same as the Tories (and they are, to all intents and purposes) then surely it’s only positive to have someone make a case for something different? The ideas may not penetrate straight away (people will have their own little obsessions) but it’s better to have them on the table than not.
No one is stopping the insufferable old fool forming his own political party - indeed it seems he's doing just that.
I'll read what he has to say, and I'll vote accordingly.
An anti EU, self-proclaimed pacifist - what could possibly go wrong him in charge? In the current geo-political climate? 😴
Given the state of the political climate everywhere at the moment, Christ only knows what it’ll look like in 4 years time.
Things will carry on just as they always do. Labour will have lost the remaining support they have and Reform or Tories or both will be in power. I would even bet money on it but you appear to go quiet at that point.
him in charge
Having a meaningful discussion really does depend on a basic grasp of the facts. The whole point is that he would NOT be in charge.
surely it’s only positive to have someone make a case for something different? The ideas may not penetrate straight away (people will have their own little obsessions) but it’s better to have them on the table than not.
This is basically the "we won the arguments/shifted the Overton window" line. We had two general elections where Corbyn was making a case for Corbynite politics. The policies were on the table.
How did that all shake out? Did it shift political discourse in GB to the left? Have distinctly Corbynite ideas permeated into the mainstream and become conventional wisdom since then?
him in charge
Having a meaningful discussion really does depend on a basic grasp of the facts. The whole point is that he would NOT be in charge.
Presumably they will have a party leader who takes on the role of PM in the event they win an election? That's what I mean by 'in charge', for the hard of thinking. 😉
Or will they delegate any and all decisions to committee or referendum, thus avoiding any and all accountability - it's the will of the people! 😆
Seems like this could be a fairly positive move, assuming we get a chance to put proportional representation into the government elections at some point.
We have PR in government elections in London (8.9 million people), Scotland (5.5 million people) and Wales (3.2 million people). So just over a quarter of the GB population will get the chance to vote for Your Party under a PR system at the next election. Those elections in Scotland and Wales determine who controls education, healthcare, housing policy - things critical to social life in this country. The GLA's powers are a bit more limited but it's still affecting policing, transport, environment, planning and education - all things I assume Your Party members would care about.
If Your Party's support base turns out to be highly geographically concentrated, then it's conceivable it might do better under FPTP than PR. But we'll have to see what the policies are and who is attracted to them first.
No one is stopping the insufferable old fool forming his own political party - indeed it seems he's doing just that.
You really have no grasp of the dynamics at play with regards to the situation on the Left of UK politics, and to be fair unless you are actively involved yourself there isn't a lot of reason why you should have. And by Left I mean what you would probably term as hard-left.
It is widely perceived that Jeremy Corbyn was dragged kicking and screaming to the position which he has now finally, at long last, taken. It has been 5 years since he had the Labour whip removed and a year since he won an election as an independent.
And yet during that time whilst others across the country were actively involved in organising a political alternative to Starmer's right-wing project, including a multitude of Labour councillors who have resigned from the party and independent parliamentary candidates, Corbyn has, as usual, prevaricated.
He wasted 4 years on a failed mission to save his position within the Labour Party refusing to accept the reality of the situation, he waited until the last moment before the general election to decide that he would be standing as an independent.
Corbyn has suffered from the same delusionary belief that many on the Left within the Labour Party suffer from, ie that the Labour Party is somehow salvageable and that it can be returned once again to its founding principles.
It isn't, it is a lost cause and that has been obvious since the days of New Labour. Sure there was a blip when he was elected leader of the party (twice) with thumping majorities, and even I got sucked into temporarily believing that there might some hope.
But in the end Corbyn was weak and indecisive and defeated by the inevitable right-wing backlash. That opportunity will never ever arise again, the right-wing solidly behind Starmer will make certain that they never again make the same mistake of momentarily losing control of the party.
Corbyn is heading this party (at least temporarily) because all other options have been closed to him and he has been put under intense pressure to do so, Zahra Sultana publicly shinning a spotlight on him and him responding with "no no no, I haven't decided yet" was embarrassing but not surprising. Nevertheless if he wanted to remain politically active he had to get up off his arse.
Having said all that I am very pleased that he is fronting the new party being created. He might lack leadership skills but his political commitment, (something in very short supply in UK politics these days) is genuine.
He is instantly recognisable (who would be interested in a new party whose leader is unknown?) and is particularly popular with young voters. Plus just because he represents a very different type of politics it creates enthusiasm and energizes a lot of people, especially if you are into woke bollocks in a big way.
However I hope that he is just a frontman and that the new party is primarily steered through a collective leadership (which I think is his preferred structure anyway) I wouldn't want to trust him with making too many decisions.
I also hope that the new party is more a loose federation of fairly self-governing local organizations of which many already exist in various parts of the country, rather than the more typical party structure, I believe that is also Corbyn's preferred choice.
No one is stopping the insufferable old fool forming his own political party - indeed it seems he's doing just that.
You really have no grasp of the dynamics at play with regards to the situation on the Left of UK politics, and to be fair unless you are actively involved yourself there isn't a lot of reason why you should have. And by Left I mean what you would probably term as hard-left.
It is widely perceived that Jeremy Corbyn was dragged kicking and screaming to the position which he has now finally, at long last, taken. It has been 5 years since he had the Labour whip removed and a year since he won an election as an independent.
And yet during that time whilst others across the country were actively involved in organising a political alternative to Starmer's right-wing project, including a multitude of Labour councillors who have resigned from the party and independent parliamentary candidates, Corbyn has, as usual, prevaricated.
He wasted 4 years on a failed mission to save his position within the Labour Party refusing to accept the reality of the situation, he waited until the last moment before the general election to decide that he would be standing as an independent.
Corbyn has suffered from the same delusionary belief that many on the Left within the Labour Party suffer from, ie that the Labour Party is somehow salvageable and that it can be returned once again to its founding principles.
It isn't, it is a lost cause and that has been obvious since the days of New Labour. Sure there was a blip when he was elected leader of the party (twice) with thumping majorities, and even I got sucked into temporarily believing that there might some hope.
But in the end Corbyn was weak and indecisive and defeated by the inevitable right-wing backlash. That opportunity will never ever arise again, the right-wing solidly behind Starmer will make certain that they never again make the same mistake of momentarily losing control of the party.
Corbyn is heading this party (at least temporarily) because all other options have been closed to him and he has been put under intense pressure to do so, Zahra Sultana publicly shinning a spotlight on him and him responding with "no no no, I haven't decided yet" was embarrassing but not surprising. Nevertheless if he wanted to remain politically active he had to get up off his arse.
Having said all that I am very pleased that he is fronting the new party being created. He might lack leadership skills but his political commitment, (something in very short supply in UK politics these days) is genuine.
He is instantly recognisable (who would be interested in a new party whose leader is unknown?) and is particularly popular with young voters. Plus just because he represents a very different type of politics it creates enthusiasm and energizes a lot of people, especially if you are into woke bollocks in a big way.
However I hope that he is just a frontman and that the new party is primarily steered through a collective leadership (which I think is his preferred structure anyway) I wouldn't want to trust him with making too many decisions.
I also hope that the new party is more a loose federation of fairly self-governing local organizations of which many already exist in various parts of the country, rather than the more typical party structure, I believe that is also Corbyn's preferred choice.
So hes heading it, but not in charge, ok, whatever.
Sounds about right, lol.
I'll read the spiel, if and when it's available, but I'm not expecting anything that will compel me to to vote for them, him, it, whatever the the preferred semantics are.
I also hope that the new party is more a loose federation of fairly self-governing local organizations of which many already exist in various parts of the country, rather than the more typical party structure, I believe that is also Corbyn's preferred choice
A sort of anarcho-syndicist commune?
I don’t consider myself a “Centrist”, but I’m pretty sure I’d fail the purity tests
Bless. I do love how reliably people repeat the hard right attack lines against the left whilst sneering at those easily led right wingers.
Aside from anything else I would have thought given Starmers purging of anyone who dares disagree with him that, just possibly, accusations of purity tests might be better aimed at him.
However since people trained to repeat it havent been told to be upset at him they will continue to attack those nasty lefties.
A sort of anarcho-syndicist commune?
Actually I was thinking more along the lines of the original structure of the Labour Party......a federation of self-governing organisations such as socialist societies, trade unions, etc.
But with perhaps more emphasis on regional and local areas. Apart from anything else it would make a red-green bloc much more feasible.
I reckon that a red-green electoral alliance could probably realistically aim for 20% of the vote. Which is potentially more than the Labour Party is likely to get in the next general election.
Not working together would be a disaster for both parties as they would simply eat into each others support.
With the Greens and the Left independents already in Westminster we have 10 MPs, which is more than Reform currently have and only one less than the LibDems had in the last parliament.
I would have thought given Starmers purging of anyone who dares disagree with him that, just possibly, accusations of purity tests might be better aimed at him.
LOL! What a little beauty ! 🤣
How did that all shake out? Did it shift political discourse in GB to the left?
Yes. Starmer was elected leader on a Corbynite manifesto. Unfortunately, many of us were unaware of the extent he was prepared to lie. I wonder why his former supporters are looking elsewhere?
How did that all shake out? Did it shift political discourse in GB to the left?
Yes. Starmer was elected leader on a Corbynite manifesto. Unfortunately, many of us were unaware of the extent he was prepared to lie. I wonder why his former supporters are looking elsewhere?
Sorry - so just to be clear - your argument for the enduring political impact on GB politics of Corbyn arguing the case for Corbynism is that (notorious Labour rightist) Kier Starmer ran on a Corbynite platform in the 2020 leadership campaign (to replace Corbyn, in competition with actual Corbynite Rebecca Long Bailey), and he then abandoned that platform (before winning a general election)?
Have you quite thought that one through?
www.clpd.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Keir-Starmers-10-Pledges.pdf
The problem is that people have short memories, or at least rather selective memories. Plus furthermore on the issue of whether Corbyn shook up British politics it is obviously far too early to reach a conclusion, hence the existence of this very thread.
The first example of Corbyn having a significant effect on UK politics is how he changed attitudes with regards to austerity.
15 years ago austerity was sold quite openly to British voters as a very necessary and legitimate economic strategy. All three main parties supported austerity policies to reduce the deficit caused by dealing with the consequences of years of deregulation.
The only actual differences between the three parties was that the Tories and the LibDems claimed that the deficit should be cleared during the duration of one parliament whilst Labour took a more cautious approach insisting that it should be over the duration of two parliaments.
With even the Labour Party supporting austerity the idea was successfully sold to voters who quite understandably concluded that if it was such a good idea to clear the deficit that it should probably be done as soon as possible, hence voter backing for the Tories and LibDems..
This nonpartisan attitude towards the need for austerity continued right through to the next general election and right up until Jeremy Corbyn became Labour leader.
Upon Corbyn becoming leader Labour's position on austerity changed drastically resulting in growing public support for an alternative economic strategy. So much so that the then Tory Prime Minister had to officially declare austerity "over", whether that was actually true is irrelevant, it is what British voters wanted to hear.
Today austerity is a very dirty word in UK politics, quite different to the situation 15 or 10 years ago, no politician would now dare to use the term. Corbyn was hugely instrumental in that situation.
"May’s significant move on austerity is a tacit acceptance that Labour has won the argument"
That is an example of one way that Corbyn deliberately shook up UK politics but there are also potentially other non-deliberate consequences of his time as Labour leader.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Labour Party is now a more authoritarian right-wing party than it would have been had Corbyn not been leader.
The right-wing got the shock of their lives when they lost control to the left. As a consequence of that they have massively consolidated their power and grip on the party expelling leftists and moving the party much further to the right confident that there is no longer any effective opposition to them within the party.
That in turn has alienated voters, especially Labour voters, and Labour has become deeply unpopular. And the consequence of that it has opened up the opportunity for a new party on the left with potentially long-term consequences for UK politics.
None of this would be happening if Corbyn hadn't ****ed up when he was Labour leader. So I for one might end up being particularly grateful to him if only because of his ineptitude. He might have accidentally buried the Labour Party the party which he loved so much, or at least robbed them of the opportunity to ever form a majority government again. Hopefully.
At one point I was certain Ernie was in this video.
They'll nail his hat right on just like last time. He'll be wearing the communist millstone around his neck before you know it! The working classes they are supposed to be saving will stick two fingers up to the idea of being state allocated farm labourers, driving cardboard cars, ditch the beamer for a horse and cart, get on your bike it's good for the environment, holibobs to blackers int chara, state telly telling you how wonderful it all is. Then they will interview some poor sap benefit claimants, every week, in the run up to the election. Getting them to declare their voting intentions for YourParty on the basis of fairness and Fannys your uncle Bobs your aunt it's the party for scroungers and shirkers.
They should avoid the c-word and anyone associated with it like the plague!
the idea of being state allocated farm labourers, driving cardboard cars, ditch the beamer for a horse and cart, get on your bike it's good for the environment, state telly telling you how wonderful it all is.
LOL!. Proper Daily Mail stuff........farm laborers, horse and cart, state telly, and bikes**
All your own work or are you paraphrasing Richard Littlejohn ?
**I am disappointed at the lack of reference to tractors though. I guess there are only so many anti-socialist cliches that you can include in just one rant?
It's not my fault I don't write the articles or produce the TV news.
I reckon that a red-green electoral alliance
It begs the question why Sultana and Corbyn haven't just joined the Greens, Polanski has more or less admitted that they've given up on 'green Tories' so the potential constituencies are more or less the same people making an alliance a waste of everyone's time (and vote).
...because they're not Greens. They know the Green Party exists. If they agreed with the Green Party platform, they'd have joined already. They don't. Corbyn, at least, isn't just gonna join any old organisation that only vaguely intersects with his views. He's only just left one of them...
Corbyn, at least, isn't just gonna join any old organisation that only vaguely intersects with his views. He's only just left one of them...
The problem is not many peoples views intersect with Corbyns... I mean, fair play for him for maintaining his integrity, but he's gonna get nowhere whilst he is anti EU - Reform already have that well and truly covered, and most people who are anti-EU are also massive racists, so that's a battle he'll never win 🤣
I mean if that's the hill he chooses to die on, (again) that's up to him I guess.
He's a strange curiosity and nothing more, IMO.
Not sure how I feel about all the lefties on here now calling themselves centrists.
Hand wringing centrist bed wetters doesn't quite have the same ring to it.
😉
right wing ****s rolls right off the tongue, fortunately.
(-;
Sorry - so just to be clear - your argument for the enduring political impact on GB politics of Corbyn arguing the case for Corbynism is that (notorious Labour rightist) Kier Starmer ran on a Corbynite platform in the 2020 leadership campaign (to replace Corbyn, in competition with actual Corbynite Rebecca Long Bailey), and he then abandoned that platform (before winning a general election)?
Have you quite thought that one through?
Yes.
I would be very surprised if the greens join this group in any form or create an alliance with them.
im not too up on the details of this, who are this party looking to get? or why would a left leaning person choose YourParty* over the greens? is it just the EU thing?
im not too up on the details of this, who are this party looking to get? or why would a left leaning person choose YourParty* over the greens? is it just the EU thing?
There's a definite contradiction between younger voters favouring Corbyn and also favouring rejoining the EU. Somewhat of a tangent to what you asked but I'm curious as to how that will play out
I would be very surprised if the greens join this group in any form or create an alliance with them.
Does that mean you will be very surprised if Polanski wins the leadership contest? He has already publicly committed to working with them.
Ultimately it will up to the Green Party membership to make a decision on any alliance but I reckon that if thy cannot cannot see how a red-green alliance provides them with their greatest ever opportunity then there is something quite wrong within the party.
Yes the still unnamed party has the potential in the immediate term to eat into the Green vote but it also has the potential, in an alliance, to give Green Party members real political power.
Furthermore as any red-green bloc gains credibility in the eyes of voters it will increase the number of voters prepared to cast their vote for them, hence potentially increasing the Green vote long-term.
That is self-evident and we have seen exactly that same snowball effect occur with support for Reform as voters realise that Reform candidates are no longer the no-hopers electorally they previously were.
The Green Party's single greatest handicap currently is that voting for them is seen by voters as a futile gesture if in a few months times opinion polls are showing a red-green alliance on about 20%, which in current climate is actually feasible and potentially more than the Tories or even Labour, then things will change dramatically.
Btw if anyone wants to have a vote in the Green Party leadership election the cut-off date for joining the party is the 31st of July.
There's a definite contradiction between younger voters favouring Corbyn and also favouring rejoining the EU.
There really isn't. Despite the endless rantings of some of fanatical anti-Corbyn punters on here Corbyn is not associated with anti-EU views which he might possibly have (I honestly don't know what position he holds these days and I frankly wouldn't trust him to maintain his previous opposition to the EU)
When Coryn was Labour Party leader the Labour Party had a strong Remain position which reflected the views of the majority of party members, this new party will be considerably more democratic than the Labour Party. Corbyn's views on the EU, whatever they might be, will be irrelevant.
The reason EU membership is used by his detractors as a stick to beat Corbyn with is because back in the early 1980s when the Labour Party was significantly more left-wing it was in the Labour Party election manifesto to leave the EEC, a position which at that time was mostly supported by the membership.
Indeed Labour's opposition to the EEC was one of the principal reasons for the formation of the Social Democratic Party. Although ironically the leading light in the Gang of Four behind the breakaway, Dr Owen, eventually went on to strongly support Leave in the EU referendum.
There really isn't.
Yes there is.
Honestly Ernesto, the alternative universe you lexiteers inhabit, now including hand-washing denial, really is bonkers
Corbyn voted against every single piece of pro-EU legislation during his parliamentary career, went AWOL during the referendum campaign, then enabled Brexit at every turn from the second the leave vote came in
Just note the date on this one…
https://labourlist.org/2016/06/corbyn-article-50-has-to-be-invoked-now/?amp
When it comes to rabidly anti-EU sentiment, he really is no different to Farage
I would be very surprised if the greens join this group in any form or create an alliance with them.
There's also the awkward point that Polanski (if he wins) would only be the leader of the Greens in England and Wales. A deal with the Scottish and Northern Irish parties would need negotiating separately. I don't know NI well enough but Scotland has a handful of "non-comformist" seats that in normal times a red-green alliance might hope to pick up.
I, for one, was happy to hear Starmer push back at some of this nonsense about rejoining the EU and going back to free migration across the EU that some of the green-red crowd have been proposing. He's focusing on the legitimate concerns of British people around the strain on public services.
We cannot duck the issue of immigration, instead we need to start an honest and rational debate...It’s clear from the conversations I and many others had on streets around the country in recent weeks that immigration is a crucial issue for a lot of people... Opinion polls have told us for many years that immigration is one of the biggest issues for people. In fact it has not dropped out of the top five issues for voters since 2011.
Politicians are often accused of being afraid about talking about immigration. I am certainly not. I believe migration has enriched our country, our culture and our communities. But I also understand that rapid changes to communities can bring tensions and strains on services.
Honestly Ernesto
Hey binners, I thought you had lost all interest in UK politics? You never ever post anything on the UK government thread anymore and yet here you are back to your usual self on this thread !
No wait, now I remember........ you claimed that the Lefties had spoilt that thread and you couldn't be bothered to argue with them any more. And yet here you are arguing with Lefties again ! 🤣
I guess that the current halfwit leader of the Labour Party has become such an embarrassment to you, with his Enoch Powell tribute speeches and shift to the hard-right as he tries to ape Nigel Farage......the Labour Party has become the cult of the personality without an actual personality, that you won't even begin to engage on the UK government thread.
Much better to focus all that pent-up ranting energy on Jeremy Corbyn than expressing any opinion on Sir Keir Starmer.
Binners.......the man with SO many opinions on SO many politicians except the Leader of the Labour Party and the current UK Prime Minister 😂😂😂
When it comes to rabidly anti-EU sentiment, he really is no different to Farage
This is a complete rewriting of history. He campaigned for remain. he spoke in favour of remain at large numbers of rallies
If the labour right had not been briefing against him and made a pact with the tories in Scotland Mays government would have fallen and we would never have had brexit
Politecameraaction
What is the upside for a red / green alliance in Scotland for the greens? the greens are looking likely to be third largest party in the next holyrood election ( its tight for places 3-5 tho) Holyrood is elected more or less under PR.
I don't even see an upside to this in England mind you.
This is a complete rewriting of history.
It really isn’t
He campaigned for remain. he spoke in favour of remain at large numbers of rallies
Where were those? In the shed on his allotment?
If the labour right had not been briefing against him and made a pact with the tories in Scotland Mays government would have fallen and we would never have had brexit
And you’re accusing me of rewriting history? 😂
I, for one, was happy to hear Starmer push back at some of this nonsense about rejoining the EU and going back to free migration across the EU that some of the green-red crowd have been proposing. He's focusing on the legitimate concerns of British people around the strain on public services.
The strain on the NHS comes because post brexit we have lost many the EU staff that used to work here. Immigrants use less public services and pay more tax than uk citizens. In other areas its because of deliberate government policy nothing to do with immigration. ~We need immigrants as a workforce
Interesting though your comments always are Ernesto, on what threads I should and shouldn’t comment on, do you have anything to add to your frankly ridiculous assertion that Corbyn wasn’t anti-EU?
Campaign rallies during the election campaign.
I think Corbyn was a lousy politician but this is a total rewrite of history.
If the labour right had not been briefing against him and made a pact with the tories in Scotland Mays government would have fallen and we would never have had brexit
And if the Labour right had not been briefing against and wishing for a Tory government there would have been a second referendum.
So that's a personal thanks from me.
exactly - a second referendum which almost certainly would have been remain
Interesting though your comments always are Ernesto, on what threads I should and shouldn’t comment on, do you have anything to add to your frankly ridiculous assertion that Corbyn wasn’t anti-EU?
Well it is you who has claimed that you stopped posting on the UK government thread because it had spoilt by Lefties, I am wondering what your excuse for posting on this thread is ?
Have I got anything to add to your frankly ridiculous assertion that as Labour leader Corbyn was as anti-EU as Nigel Farage?
Yes. Firstly provide me with a link which shows Corbyn as Labour leader denouncing the EU as Farage did. And secondly tell me what Sir Keir Starmer's position is on EU membership and also would you expect that to attract young voters?
As an added bonus perhaps you can tell me why so many young voters are attracted by Jeremy Corbyn and put off by Sir Keir Starmer?
I, for one, was happy to hear Starmer push back at some of this nonsense about rejoining the EU and going back to free migration across the EU that some of the green-red crowd have been proposing. He's focusing on the legitimate concerns of British people around the strain on public services.
Well at least you admit you are against re-joining, that is what you are saying isn't it? after all there is no re-joining the EU without freedom of movement it is a central pillar of the EU, so if you support that position then you are against re-joining, it is nothing more than a lie and con job to suggest anything else (which seeing it is Starmer saying it is just another in a long list).
And services are strained because of austerity, we all know that, but no surprise that those that used to shout loudest were just putting on a show and are have now fully embraced austerity, but blaming the damage done by austerity is caused by those nasty foreigners coming into the country is just another example of the racism embraced by the STW centrist mob.
Politecameraaction
What is the upside for a red / green alliance in Scotland for the greens? the greens are looking likely to be third largest party in the next holyrood election ( its tight for places 3-5 tho) Holyrood is elected more or less under PR.
Sorry - I should have been clearer. I was referring to a Green-Your Party alliance for FPTP Westminster seats in Scotland and NI.
Agreed that there's much less incentive for Holyrood and Stormont elections. And tbh I'm not entirely sure if an electoral pact between the Greens and Your Party makes sense: it seems like an arrangement that might disappoint both sides because they disagree on some fundamentals. And if you thought disagreeing on fundamentals but sticking with awkward alliances was a compromise worth making, you wouldn't join Your Party in the first place...
But tbf I'm neither a Green nor a Your Party supporter, and my predictions are usually wrong, so no-one GAS what I think.
Jeremy Corbyn says 'overwhelming case' for staying in EU
He was almost parroting Nigel Farage! 😂
I, for one, was happy to hear Starmer push back at some of this nonsense about rejoining the EU and going back to free migration across the EU that some of the green-red crowd have been proposing. He's focusing on the legitimate concerns of British people around the strain on public services.
Well at least you admit you are against re-joining, that is what you are saying isn't it? after all there is no re-joining the EU without freedom of movement it is a central pillar of the EU, so if you support that position then you are against re-joining, it is nothing more than a lie and con job to suggest anything else (which seeing it is Starmer saying it is just another in a long list).
Hold on - so you're saying that what Starmer said above shows that he is against free migration within the EU and therefore against EU membership? Just because he mentions the public concern around immigration? Crikey...
Is that the best you can come up with Unvle Jezza? It’s hardly a ringing endorsement of Remain from Grandad.
Hardly surprising from the lifelong Brexiteer. He’s as responsible for Brexit as Michael Gove, through his total disinterest in representing any views other than his own, which have always been vehemently anti-EU
When it comes to rabidly anti-EU sentiment, he really is no different to Farage
This is a complete rewriting of history. He campaigned for remain. he spoke in favour of remain at large numbers of rallies
Again falling into the Centrist Dad stereotype, the truth is between you and Binners. Corbyn is a lifelong EU sceptic but he also followed the democratically-determined Labour policy while he was leader...which was fair enough as that's what is demanded of shadow cabinet members.
I suspect that policy (which was a shambles) was more pro-European than Corbyn preferred.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyns-changing-brexit-stance
Hardly surprising from the lifelong Brexiteer. He’s as responsible for Brexit as Michael Gove
hold on - you can't simultaneously believe he's been a completely useless legislator who has failed in all his objectives throughout his parliamentary career and also that he was the secret co-architect of the most dramatic political development of the last 50 years...
Hold on - so you're saying that what Starmer said above shows that he is against free migration within the EU and therefore against EU membership? Just because he mentions the public concern around immigration? Crikey...
Yes absolutely, my words are quite clear, and I am happy to stand by them, unlike right wingers on here pretending to be centrists who when they realise the stupidity and ignorance of their comments try and squirm away and pretend they meant something completely different.
Funny how the usual suspects (or just one of them) are back to denounce 'lefty 6th formers' after holding their tongue for so long on the Govt thread. Might be useful to compare and contrast...
Your Party:
- Tax corporations and billionaires fairly to fund public services.
- Prevent private corporations from profiting from the NHS.
- Bring utilities back into public ownership.
- Stop funding endless wars and supporting genocide in the Middle East
Labour Party:
- Relaxing post-2008 city regulations to enable banks to make more profit.
- Continuing austerity and higher taxes for working people.
- Perpetuating child poverty by continuing the two child benefit cap.
- Remove benefits from the poorest and most vulnerable people in society.
- Enabling genocide in Gaza by allowing weaponse components to be be supplied and training the IDF.
- Clamping down on and demonizing migrants
Lets ignore all the above though and concentrate on what 'magic grandad' said about the EEC in the early 80s, because that's what really matters in 2025!
But tbf I'm neither a Green nor a Your Party supporter, and my predictions are usually wrong, so no-one GAS what I think.
I was interested in your reasoning
If our resident lefties could compile some sort of list about who exactly is allowed by them to comment on what, that’d be a great help to the rest of us 😃