You’re not alone

Very poignant.

Ive just got back from an assessment ive been waiting over 2 years for.

Effectively ive been told that as things are so shit in my life at the moment, having counselling might make me worse as it's another thing I'll have on my mind.

I'm more than a little confused. The therapist asked me for my thoughts about the situation.

I replied, "resigned to it."

I've been to 'Andy's Man Club' a number of times and it's been helpful for sharing what's going on each week with others and hearing their stories. 7pm Monday nights around the country, free and tea and biscuits too.

I've had 3 periods of private counselling/psychotherapy over the years too which was very helpful as being private I chose someone I clicked with, but £££.

I’ve been to ‘Andy’s Man Club’ a number of times and it’s been helpful for sharing what’s going on each week with others and hearing their stories. 7pm Monday nights around the country, free and tea and biscuits too.

Always big up AMC, it's really helped a few friends of mine who were in dark places. They do a bloody great job, coupled with decent therapy and rather selfishly I'm really glad they're still here.

We've got to get better at listening I think, all very well and good saying people need to talk.

I'm toying with an AMC like idea with bikes for veterans modelled on a similar US organisation. Might have legs across the wider cycling community I reckon.

Thanks for posting OP.

Thanks for posting that was beautifully done and not an easy watch despite it's short length.  

Do you just turn up to AMC, what's the form? I know someone that could probably use the help.

Yup, find your local group, can do that through their website, most have Facebook pages which will give the details of date, time & place (Mondays 7pm except BH)
The facilitators and members will do everything they can to help with the unease and unfamiliarity, you've just got to walk through the door.

The video implies the man should have perhaps asked his wife for help, while that is clearly the correct thing to do there are sadly an awful lot of terrible relationships out there where people see shame in their partner not being able to support themself and in those cases asking for help isn't the answer, ending the relationship is.

Seen it all to often men thinking they are stuck in a marriage or relationship where they can't be vulnerable but can't face the shame of divorce so choose the only other path they see available.

It might just be me, but I find there is a disconnect between what these campaigns are trying to achieve and the message they push out.  For example:

Suicide is 100% preventable and the stigma of male mental health needs to end.

To me this is just saying that mental health isn't a real disease.  You wouldn't say dying of pneumonia is 100% preventable.  Yes, with the right treatment there is a good chance it's preventable but there is always some combination of circumstances that means that people are always going to die of pneumonia.

Mental health is extremely complex and many conditions are poorly understood as well as many people getting misdiagnosed.

And then there are people who simply can't get treatment because many health professionals are reluctant to treat their condition.  Borderline Personality Disorder being one condition that springs to mind.

As is always the case, I'm sure their heart is in the right place but this kind of message is extremely insulting to the people out there who have done everything 'right' but it didn't do any good.  They realised there was a problem, they sought help (often from friends, family, and professionals) only to find the support that everyone told them was going to be there simply wasn't.

We want this video to be shared far and wide. We want to make men understand that the trauma effect and the destruction left behind after a life is taken is unbearable and utterly devastating for everyone involved.

This is the other thing that always irritates me (in fact the whole video irritates me).  If you think we don't understand what the consequences are going to be you are out of your ****ing mind.  What purpose is reminding us supposed to serve?  Guilt us into continuing to live with unbearable pain?  I see a problem with that logic.

I'm sure the intentions are good, but this just reminds me I don't have the 'right' kind of problem.

Re. AMC, yes just turn up and say 'Hi' and join in as much as you feel comfortable.

There's a formal way it's done with rounds talking where you can talk or not, but it's informal too, and no names or details taken.

@BruceWee , I guess the point they are making is if you keep it all to yourself you give nobody else a chance to help where they could have. It's probably targeted at a different end of the spectrum to the many that have sought help and received none.

I agree it feels quite victim blaming, however.

It might just be me, but I find there is a disconnect between what these campaigns are trying to achieve and the message they push out.  

I agree and I also find the message that suicide is 100% preventable a little odd. Sometimes it's a rational transaction.

Thanks for sharing. Suicide leaves many ripples in the water and can touch many peoples lifes after the event.

My cousin took his own life 6 years ago, he was in his mid 40's leaving two teenage daughters and his estranged wife. I knew nothing about his 15 year mental health struggle up to his death.

The last time I saw him was at his mums wake 18 months before his own death and I had absolutely no inkling what so ever that there may of been anything wrong at all. He was the typical happy chappie. His mum, my mums sister, also had taken her life after a long struggle with mental health.

The break up in my cousins marriage and losing his mum I'm guessing was just to much in the end. I found out later that he was getting help but the help he was receiving was possibly the wrong type of help at that stage and he wasn’t very receptive to it.

I guess I'm saying in a long winded way is try and start talking and try to reach out if your having problems. Easier said than done I know, I've been there myself.

Its been said on here before that blokes often open up if they are side by side doing something and in my experience riding too.

I think a big fear in some men as well is if they speak up they may lose a sense of autonomy or become emancipated by well-meaning supporters.

In a scenario akin to the video, 11 months ago in Feb ‘22 we lost a work colleague to suicide.  He was a marketing manager and very good too, I worked with him on my software intro to the UK for 13 months pretty much every other day.  The last day I saw him physically was November 21 whereby we finalised a significant stand of his design at a large trade show, before having dinner and swapping family / life stories the night before the event.  He was one of the most easy going, polite, organised, pleasant and intelligent people we all knew, and left behind a wife and two young children, and many tears across our company.

We never knew the real issues or even any indication that anything was wrong and they are private to his family anyway, but anything we can do to support people and encourage people to support themselves through mental health issues the better.

The video implies the man should have perhaps asked his wife for help, while that is clearly the correct thing to do there are sadly an awful lot of terrible relationships out there where people see shame in their partner not being able to support themself and in those cases asking for help isn’t the answer, ending the relationship is

<br />What you are saying is definitely valid, but I think it goes beyond that.  The relationship can, in fact, be very good but the man can still find his experiences being rejected by his partner.

People often think that gender stereotypes and expectations are the fault and responsibility of men but it's really a society problem that affects both genders.

Many women have a gender based expectation of their partner that they be stoic and 'manly'.  If the women then finds her partner opening up and showing themselves to be vulnerable they can react in completely the wrong way and it can make the situation even worse.

become emancipated by well-meaning supporters

I'm curious to know what you mean by this?

As is always the case, I’m sure their heart is in the right place but this kind of message is extremely insulting to the people out there who have done everything ‘right’ but it didn’t do any good. They realised there was a problem, they sought help (often from friends, family, and professionals) only to find the support that everyone told them was going to be there simply wasn’t.

That’s happened to me and I’m not insulted or offended by the video, quite the opposite. Keeping suicide as a taboo topic doesn’t help anyone at all. This is, at least, a step in the right direction. I didn’t see the video as attempting to guilt trip those contemplating taking their own lives. We all view things through our own biases though.

Quite an upsetting video. The thought of my daughter being sad without a dad / finding me was the only thing that stopped me doing silly things a few years back.

Its not easy. Its hard. i dont think anyone has the answers. everyone piles on the pressure until you snap. 

That’s happened to me and I’m not insulted or offended by the video, quite the opposite. Keeping suicide as a taboo topic doesn’t help anyone at all. This is, at least, a step in the right direction. I didn’t see the video as attempting to guilt trip those contemplating taking their own lives. We all view things through our own biases though.

If you don't feel that way, fine.  Good for you.  By the way, no one but you has mentioned making suicide a taboo subject.  It's just that if you are going to start talking about it make sure you know what you are talking about which I'm not sure these people do.

Men's mental health isn't the the responsibility of men as a gender or the individual men who are experiencing problems.  It's a societal problem where men are exposed to pressures both external and internal and often individuals aren't going to be able to overcome society's expectations and will end up killing themselves.

This video ignores all that and places all the responsibility on individuals who really don't need any extra pressure placed on them.

I'm wondering if they sought any guidance from mental health professionals before making this video because for me personally it's generating feelings that are the complete opposite of what they want to achieve.

By the way, no one but you has mentioned making suicide a taboo subject.

it still generally is across large swathes of society across the world. That’s why I mention it. It’s not talked about enough imo. We’re clearly coming at this from very different angles. I’ll leave it there as this thread wasn’t started with the intention of the usual STW argument Olympics.

it still generally is across large swathes of society across the world. That’s why I mention it. It’s not talked about enough imo. We’re clearly coming at this from very different angles. I’ll leave it there as this thread wasn’t started with the intention of the usual STW argument Olympics.

It's not talked about enough in the right way.  Most of the talk of suicide places the responsibility for the results firmly on the shoulders of the people already in crisis.  A tradition this video continues.

Capping everything off with a not-so-subtle insult was a nice touch, by the way.

Capping everything off with a not-so-subtle insult was a nice touch, by the way.

I honestly have no ****ing clue what you’re talking about.

Mental health is extremely complex and many conditions are poorly understood as well as many people getting misdiagnosed

Absolutely agree with this.

I've been suffering with general anxiety and depression for almost 20 years now. I don't understand why, or how. And to be honest any talking therapies that I've had have not changed anything for me. So what is different for me? Do they not ask the right questions? Do I need tell them the right things? It's like my head is on a rinse cycle for 20 years but actually it needs to stop before anything can be understood. Talking does help in the very short term, but often I felt frustrated after it with even more confusion and doubt.

I took the implication that I'm only on this thread to win an argument as a dig.

Mostly because I can't think what else you could have meant.

Talking does help in the very short term, but often I felt frustrated after it with even more confusion and doubt.

Almost identical to my experience.  I asked my therapist about it.  He said I was talking in the wrong way.

I suspect there is still along way to go when it comes to the treatment of men's mental health.

I took the implication that I’m only on this thread to win an argument as a dig.

Mostly because I can’t think what else you could have meant.

well you were wrong. I meant it in the way that pretty much every thread on here of La devolves into an argument regardless of context. Sadly it just seems to be how this place operates nowadays. Not meant in a personal way at all. I’ll leave it there and hope this thread can provide some insight, help and reassurance to some. As per my original post I’ve been close to suicide in the past. Many moons ago a friend stopped me.My wife and kids being the only thing that have given me pause in the last ten years. Mainly through being unlucky enough to have seen the after effects of suicide three times in my life.

I’m so very glad I’ve never gone through with it. For my own sake and that of others.

I meant it in the way that pretty much every thread on here of La devolves into an argument regardless of context.

You say you want to talk about suicide.  Well, this what talking about suicide looks like.  It's not easy and it's not pleasant.

I find this video to be entirely counter-productive.  Others (including you) have already said they didn't kill themselves because of the effect it would have had on their family.  I don't think people need reminding of the effect it's going to have on their families.  It's probably the only thing they are thinking about.  And at it's worst it's results in thoughts like, 'I should take the kids with me so they don't suffer'.

This video is just adding an external element to what is already an extremely strong internal pressure.

Come on.. that vid ending is poor. 100% a guilt trip. Suicide has to be okay for the conversation to begin. 

Keeping suicide as a taboo topic doesn’t help anyone at all. This is, at least, a step in the right direction.

It is, the next thing to tick off that list is an open conversation about the nature of male suicide and the things that contribute to it without it getting hijacked by gender ideologues as it will require conversations about wider society and the value or lack of, it places on men and the issues they want to talk about or impact them, and they will be as varied as we are as individuals.

It's why I made reference to listening in my earlier post. Talking is pointless if people aren't listening to understand, but simply to respond.

I've lost more friends to suicide than enemy action over the course of my career, it is fast approaching double digits and that number will continue to rise, there are daily posts on the All Call Signs pages of veterans in distress, we're a drop in the ocean compared to the wider population so scary to think if you extrapolate it out, how many men out there are mentally up shit creek and we have no idea.

RE the current disagreement: the messaging can sometimes be clumsy, it can trigger responses in others, but I guess the key is we want the same thing right?

We don't want our mates disappearing off into the woods and not coming out, so maybe a check fire and adjust our focus on that unifying fact and work that as our common ground rather than fight over the nuance of a message or campaign...

This video is just adding an external element to what is already an extremely strong internal pressure.

I disagree. I watched the video and thought about what I could do to help someone in that situation.

The video has also got a bunch of strangers on an internet forum to talk about mens mental health. That's a win. Maybe it gets some folk talking about it in a pub latter today. Maybe it makes a person think about how they are struggling and need to get some help. That's positive.

I'm not sure it will make someone feel more pressured and take their own life. When you get to that stage in my personal experience its because you 100% believe it is best thing for your family and partner. You simply have convinced yourself they and the world will be better off without you.

I understand what is being said above but I'm happy the video has started a discussion which might not have otherwise happened.

I'm not sure about that RM

I want my mates to be at peace, I do want them to know there are options but I want to see suicide respected as a sane and reasoned choice. 

I disagree.

I’m not sure it will make someone feel more pressured and take their own life.

OK, but you do realise that what you are doing is invalidating my experiences?  This video was triggering for me because of my own experiences that I've partly shared here.

This is nothing to do with winning an argument.  This is me trying to let everyone know that, for one person at least, this video has the opposite effect to what was intended.  It makes me very slightly more likely to want to kill myself.  I would be surprised if I was the only person who had that reaction.

The guy who made the Linkedin post (and presumably the video) is not a mental health professional.  He is a recruitment consultant although he does have Mental Health first aid and Suicide first aid certificates according to his profile.  Man Down also don't offer any professional services and don't claim to be mental health professionals.  However, I think what they are attempting to do is great.

It doesn't change the fact my personal reaction to the post and to the video was overwhelmingly negative.  My reaction is not right or wrong.  It is my reaction.

Part of listening to someone is to not tell them that what they are feeling is wrong.

I’m not sure about that RM

I want my mates to be at peace, I do want them to know there are options but I want to see suicide respected as a sane and reasoned choice.

We're on the same page, removing the stigma and the ever-lingering 'cowards way out' opinion some (too many) hold is essential, part of that rational and adult conversation would hopefully grow wider awareness of the thought process behind male suicide and broaden the conversation to shape support into something meaningful and effective for the uniqueness of this subject.

I am so very tired of the current narrative that men need to talk more or cry. It's usually uttered by midwits who practice tik tok psychology, or have MH advocate in a bio of some description.

As I said, we're very much on the same page, we just have a slightly different hierarchy of direction.

The more this gets talked about the better as far as I'm concerned, I had a pretty rough few years and came very close myself.

When I came out the other side and started talking about it I was shocked how many of my friends had been through something similar and never said a word about it. 

I think the concern for me is that the way the video ends feels like a step back to the 80's idea of suicide and doesn't actually help the open and progressive conversation we want/ need in 24

Anyways, moving past whether we like the vid, we all agree that we don't want the conversation shut down.

In my head I'm comparing it to the recent push for more knowledge and understanding of the menopause,  many people are going to go on the journey to the edge of the world and I don't think anyone is really prepared for it.

It’s usually uttered by midwits who practice tik tok psychology, or have MH advocate in a bio of some description.

I've honestly found some of the non-professional advocates who speak directly about their personal experiences on social media extremely valuable.

Always been a bit of an outsider, I do what I can but always seem to remain on the outside. Thankfully never been suicidal, it's been on my mind at times, but always, again thankfully, never something I could do.

And re the video, I thought the 2nd day was the 1st day again but through the perspective of the mother (suggesting the 1st day was through the perspective of the child). So expected the third day to be through the perspective of the father. So message in that case would have been how so much of our internal life is hidden (perhaps that message could have been taken further to be more helpful).

I’ve honestly found some of the non-professional advocates who speak directly about their personal experiences on social media extremely valuable.

Fair. Sadly most of my run-ins have been with psycho-babes lecturing me on the nuances of being a man, or civilians who think they understand the mindset of a veteran, so I have a collective disdain for them. I'm sure they have good intentions (maybe) but I find them a little too preachy with a healthy dose of saviour complex.

But if it works for others, fair.