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meanwhile people with cancer or other terminal conditions are refused treatment because there aren't the funds available....
A lot of cancers (as well as the obvious ones) are linked to multiple lifestyle factors. What are you suggesting we do about those?
do you have access to any statistics which refute the causes
No, but they do not have any statistics that prove it either.
The NHS website is often wrong, they still recommend eating low fat, and we all know thats bollocks.
Science works by testing a hypothesis, the statement made by the highlander was not tested by highlander, it merely appeals to his confirmation bias. He thinks fat people are lazy rather than being fat makes you tired.
I am against fattism, ie peopel who hate other people purely because they are fat -ie haggis1978 the hero of the scottish people.
I have a proposal, it will never get funded, but we should test what conditions fat people have, and what knowledge they have. Ie test for thyroid , insulin resitance etc. And see if they think pasta and low fat is good for you.
I'll bet 90% of them have an issue that prevents them from losing weight, and are happily eating "lowfat" foods that are actually high in carbs.
A lot of cancers (as well as the obvious ones) are linked to multiple lifestyle factors. What are you suggesting we do about those?
Not give them a window seat on Haggis's helicopter ?
I do object to the NHS resources being used up by so many fat people who are not suffering from a medical condition that they have brought on themselves...
Really? Ever broken a bone doing sport? You are spouting small minded self centred twaddle. This is 2014 not 1957.
butterscotch yum-yum above is 550 calories - about 40 mins of intense cycling according to myfitnesspal
there is a considerable amount of science behind the hormonal factors in obesity but still a lot more to understand
personally I believe the government needs to legislate further, sadly ours has been bought easily by the food lobby, failing to legislate on traffic light labelling, alcohol pricing etc ultimately costing taxpayers through the NHS
and their failings for children are criminal, see Goves attempt to cut back on sport, one of his first moves as Ed Sec, Accademies being able to ignore restrictions on junk food vending machines and axing Sure Start programmes
you can be as fatist or PC as you like but the (in)actions of this condem government will end up costing everyone more
you can be as fatist or PC as you like but the (in)actions of this condem government will end up costing everyone more
I don't think either attitude will solve the obesity problem, but eradicating fattism will make the world a nicer place.
I think we need to understand diet and exercise more and spread the message. People have been given the wrong message.
EG low fat high carbs, and typical exercise plans to lose weight involving "fat burning", guess what, that does not work very well for losing weight. But low carbs and HIT appear to be very effective..
Making people feel shit because of someone elses shoddy perception of how they came to be fat certainly does not help. They must have some of their own pain in their lives to feel the need to dish it out on others.
They must have some of their own pain in their lives to feel the need to dish it out on others.
I thought it was an accepted fact that those who constantly criticise others do so because they have a very low opinion of themselves ?
toys19,do you have access to any statistics which refute the causes stated in this article
[url] http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Obesity/Pages/Causes.aspx [/url]
If so could you kindly provide references as I am interested in the arguments put forward in this thread.
thejsmonddingo, I gave you my answer above in http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/youre-fatist/page/7#post-5898269
Really? Ever broken a bone doing sport?
however, the fact that a sport was being partaken in implies an effort to lead a healthy lifestyle - unlike eating excessively...
I don't think either attitude will solve the obesity problem, but eradicating fattism will make the world a nicer place.
not sure this is productive though - without fattism everyone will feel no issue with eating McDonalds everyday, etc and so we will end up like the picture of the future shown in Wall-E, etc.
In certain social groups it is not the 'done thing' to be fat, and so how many people in Royal Families, etc, do you see that are obese?
And why do you not see any obese 'royals' - do they have better genes without this flaw that causes fatness, or do they eat better foods that we can't afford, or do they just eat in moderation?
I vote for moderation.
Sorry came back to the thread and accidentally posted twice.I read your reply,it only reinforces my opinion of your ignorance.
however, the fact that a sport was being partaken in implies an effort to lead a healthy lifestyle - unlike eating excessively...
😆
Some comedy gold in your posts but this is fantastic.
Read almost the whole thread. This from SD253 pretty much sums it up for me
Obesity is a symptom of bone idleness.
With a few obvious exceptions this is just blindingly obvious. Yes, we all knew a kid at school on medication which made them big, yes there are obviously people with limited mobility who become large.
But if I drink lots of beer and eat loads of junk food, I can easily observe myself getting larger. If I stop all that and go for a cycle every other day, I get smaller. FFS.
Ignorance? What exactly in the context of this discussion am I ignorant of? Do you you know what ingnorance means?
not sure this is productive though - without fattism everyone will feel no issue with eating McDonalds everyday, etc and so we will end up like the picture of the future shown in Wall-E, etc.
This has proven to be utterly wrong.
And why do you not see any obese 'royals' - do they have better genes without this flaw that causes fatness, or do they eat better foods that we can't afford, or do they just eat in moderation?
Firstly, this is bollocks, my neighbours whole family are thin, is it genetic/ Do they live a better lifestyle? I dunno? The observed health of one family is not science, it is anecdote.
Secondly Fergie? Prince Andrew is starting to get a double chin
[img] 
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But if I drink lots of beer and eat loads of junk food, I can easily observe myself getting larger. If I stop all that and go for a cycle every other day, I get smaller. FFS.
Steady now, this implies personal responsibility.....and modern society doesnt like that, we want to play the blame game....it must be illness, it must be a lack of information, it must be the food industry etc etc....heaven forbid people should take come kind of interest in what they put into their bodies.
heaven forbid people should take come kind of interest in what they put into their bodies.
This is just rubbish, nobody here has said that.
You need to be aware how your own prejudice influences how you interpret what other people say.
It is short people I can't stand, too lazy to just grow to a proper height.
Oh god, I am short and fat..
Some comedy gold in your posts but this is fantastic.
FFS why ? Is eating excessively a sport I am unaware of ? When will it be in the olympics ?
This has proven to be utterly wrong.
show me that proof... there isn't any.
Secondly Fergie?
She got large - she put the effort in and lost it and kept it off - simple link there -> effort - stays slim.
And I don't think she became obese.
MSP - Member
It is short people I can't stand, too lazy to just grow to a proper height.
Nice try but there is very little an individual can do about their height....eating and obesity however....
Nice try but there is very little an individual can do about their height....eating and obesity however....
I disagree, average heights are increasing. I wonder why?
What about intelligence? Can a person do anything about that?
show me that proof... there isn't any.
So you are saying that it is correct and productive to abuse people for their life choices? Do you hang around outside lung cancer clinics saying I told you so? In terms of proof I CBA to link to the wealth of psychologiacl studies that show that shoving humilation down peoples throats does not contribute to self esteem, and ultimalty leads to poor health. Can you show me any evidence that it does work?
No everyone on earth is identical and the only thing that differentiates them is choice, you have now convinced me of that.
It's a hard one, especially when I look at BBW.
user-removed - MemberRead almost the whole thread. This from SD253 pretty much sums it up for me
Obesity is a symptom of bone idleness.
Yes it's really that simple isn't it, why do some people have make things so complicated, I mean look at this from a government report ffs.
[b][i]However there are many complex behavioural and societal factors that combine to contribute to the causes of obesity. The Foresight report (2007) referred to a “complex web of societal and biological factors that have, in recent decades, exposed our inherent human vulnerability to weight gain”. The report presented an obesity system map with energy balance at its centre. Around this, over 100 variables directly or indirectly influence energy balance (Figure 1).
The Foresight map has been divided into 7 cross-cutting predominant themes (Figure 2):
Biology: an individuals starting point - the influence of genetics and ill health;
Activity environment: the influence of the environment on an individual’s activity behaviour, for example a decision to cycle to work may be influenced by road safety, air pollution or provision of a cycle shelter and showers;
Physical Activity: the type, frequency and intensity of activities an individual carries out, such as cycling vigorously to work every day;
Societal influences: the impact of society, for example the influence of the media, education, peer pressure or culture;
Individual psychology: for example a person’s individual psychological drive for particular foods and consumption patterns, or physical activity patterns or preferences;
Food environment: the influence of the food environment on an individual’s food choices, for example a decision to eat more fruit and vegetables may be influenced by the availability and quality of fruit and vegetables near home;
Food consumption: the quality, quantity (portion sizes) and frequency (snacking patterns) of an individual’s diet.
[/i][/b]
And these diagrams
[img] 
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[img] 
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And fill yer boots here :
Someone ought to tell the Department for Business, Innovation & Skills, to have a look at this thread to find out the causes of obesity, ie, bone idleness.
deviant - Member
Steady now, this implies personal responsibility.....and modern society doesnt like that, we want to play the blame game....it must be illness, it must be a lack of information, it must be the food industry etc etc....heaven forbid people should take come kind of interest in what they put into their bodies
so deviant you disagree with heavy taxation, age restrictions, bans etc on smoking ?
I disagree, average heights are increasing. I wonder why?
What about intelligence?
well in your case it is clear you could do with some more intelligence...
ha ha turner guy try not to be an arsehole. Do you think being thickist is a bit of a bigoted trait also?
Ernie, your post highlights all the contributing factors but what should an individual do about their weight gain?....(presuming they arent one of the small percentage with an illness)....
I'm guessing eating less in the form of a balanced diet and taking regular exercise will counter the weight gain....or are people seriously trying to claim this is poor advice, doesnt work etc etc...
There are a multitude of [i]reasons[/i] why somebody might gain weight but the end action is that they are consuming more than they expend.
People are getting causes and reasons mixed up....the cause of weight gain is consuming excess calories....the reasons may be many (emotional crutch, lack of education etc etc)....to use comfort eating as an example, the problem here is psychological....this in itself wont [i]cause[/i] weight gain, it is simply a reason for somebody to eat, the cause of the weight gain will be too much food going in.
There are very few actual causes of weight gain other than eating too much but there are many many reasons why people eat too much, its important to differentiate otherwise people fall back to the 'its not my fault' position.
ha ha turner guy try not to be an arsehole. I mean you seem to have an excelelnt grasp of the scientific method and logical fallacies.
at least as clear as your...
turner guy, either discuss like an adult or piss off.
turner guy, either discuss like an adult or piss off.
kettle - black.
I asked for proof - you couldn't provide any - and then you got huffy.
It's not my fault.
Ernie, while your post highlights.....
Hey, I just copied and pasted stuff from a Department for Business, Innovation & Skills, report. I didn't do the research. I was just pointing out how complicated some people make things out to be when we can see from this thread that it's "bone idleness" that causes obesity.
I asked for proof - you couldn't provide any - and then you got huffy.
I did not get huffy about the proof, I do not have any proof that being nice to fat people works, and I am happy to admit it, I did up there.But then you don't have any prove that being a bigot to them works either.
Ther is however lots of evidence that being nasty to people does not help.
I got huffy about you being bigoted.
Is it right to be against bigots? yes
Is it right to be fatist or thickist? Hmm I don't think so.
You can decide if you want to discuss like a man or resort to insult.
Now now turner,stop picking on toys,you know he's special.
the cause of weight gain is consuming excess calories
What do you think would happen were I to consume a say, 500-1000 calorie a day excess in (total) vegetables for a few months, and then swapped over for a few months to a similar excess in (total) butterscotch yumyums? Would I gain more weight on the yumyum diet (as fun as if might be) or on the nothing but veg diet?
Don't know,but the first half of the research would be really boring 😆
I disagree, average heights are increasing. I wonder why?
Where is the value in that statement?
So you are saying that it is correct and productive to abuse people for their life choices?
What I am saying is that is likely to be a mistake to remove the social stigma against being fat.
Except that it is dying out anyway - witness the number of young girls who proudly walk around with rolls of muffin top hanging out over their tight, low cut jeans.
Can we all just breathe and relax, before it gets closed chaps? I've yet to make up my mind on this.
(Yes toys, you can crack the Fast Show gag if you want 🙂 )
turner guy, either discuss like an adult or piss off.
Now now turner,stop picking on toys,you know he's special.
I can't understand how a thread which started off innocently enough poking fun at fat people should have degenerated into slinging around personal insults.
Don't know
I'm going to be blunt with you here and say that doesn't really surprise me. Anyway, the question was at deviant.
Where is the value in that statement?
that somebody postulated that you cannot do anything about your height, but I am not sure that is correct. Given that over time average heights are tending to increase in the western world and this has been attributed to health and nutrition. Then you could argue that an individuals health and nutrition during growth could influence their height, therefore a person could do something about their height, in early life..
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X03001011
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1095643302002945
What I am saying is that is likely to be a mistake to remove the social stigma against being fat.
I see, so given your intellectual leviathan status, how do you propose those people who are fat through endocrine disorders cope with this social stigma? Do they carry have to carry an NHS verified card saying, its ok to bait the fatty, but not me because I've got a note?
I am not sure how much foresight goes jnto the Foresight report (sorry Ernie,, nothing personal). Biology aside, seems like a lot of fancy words that basically present different things that affect an individual's choice or how they put it, physiological drive. People have essentially made choices in relation to all these concepts for a very long time. Some with good results and some with bad ones.
Yes, there are lots of factors involved but one common thread - people largely have the freedom to respond to nearly all of them. Whether it's riding a berm, hitting a tennis ball, writing a letter, eating a super-sized mac etc, lots of factors are involved, it it is how we respond that largely determines the result. The human brain has always been remarkably capable at distilling it all down to simple decisions with or without complex maps to help.
Just played tennis (half term) - good choice - but followed this up with a ice cream - bad choice - tempered by the fact that it was a fruit sorbet style one ( ok, moderately bad choice that I could "pretend" was #6 in my daily mix ). No one forced any of these choices in me. I only have myself to blame that the bad choices > the good ones. Still there's time for a run yet!!!!
Sorry if you meant me,but I thought we'd tried all the fallacies of logical argument (straw men,rhetoric over logic etc) and thought that comparing toys to Mourinho was par for the course.
What do you think would happen were I to consume a say, 500-1000 calorie a day excess in (total) vegetables for a few months, and then swapped over for a few months to a similar excess in (total) butterscotch yumyums? Would I gain more weight on the yumyum diet (as fun as if might be) or on the nothing but veg diet?
When you can answer that DD then you can make your mind up.
I don't know the answer either, I do know it is complex, maybe the calories in/out crowd are right, I don't know. I'm not sure how they now as they have not proved anything. i am merely trying to point out that it appears more complex than it looks, and that being bigoted about it does not help in anyway.
I am not sure how much foresight goes jnto the Foresight report (sorry Ernie,, nothing personal). Biology aside, seems like a lot of fancy words .....
No need to apologize THM, that after all was my point. Lots of fancy words when just "bone idleness" would have done.
I see so how do those people who are fat through endocrine disorders cope with this social stigma? Do they carry have to carry an NHS verified card saying, its ok to bait the fatty, but not me because I've got a note?
maybe, or a colored walking stick?
But look at the influence of trashy magazines like Hello and how the imagery in them influences a lot of the population.
If Katy Price became fat and made it look good enough that Hello magazine put her on the front cover then I bet the queues outside McDonalds would increase pronto.
But back to my original point - you don't become fat overnight and you have enough time to figure out that something is wrong and that maybe you should stop eating the stuff that makes you fat, or that you should go see the doctor because you have a medical condition.
But there is another problem because, as we have seen, the NHS might not have the funds to treat you because they are spending so much treating people who haven't taken any responsibility for their own health.
maybe, or a colored walking stick?
I am so glad I am not as intelligent as you.
In all seriousness,I'm a bit stuck here.I agree with toys etc that bigotry and insult reduce people's self esteem,making dealing with their problems,including weight,more difficult.I also agree that the nature of a person's diet,and any medical problems,modify the seemingly simple eat less move more equation,but I know a lot of people who complain about being fat,but do not seem to connect it with their preferred breakfast being two Greggs steak slices,a Mars bar and a diet coke.People seem to abnegate personal responsibility for their problems too easily.
What do you think would happen were I to consume a say, 500-1000 calorie a day excess in (total) vegetables for a few months, and then swapped over for a few months to a similar excess in (total) butterscotch yumyums? Would I gain more weight on the yumyum diet (as fun as if might be) or on the nothing but veg diet?
I will talk a confident guess at the yumyum diet bringing more weight gain - plus probably diabetes.
When my sister was at school she had a friend who modeled for one of those teeny mags - in their photo-stories.
She reckoned you could eat loads of fatty foods, as long as you didn't have much sugar as this seemed to put the weight on. She was stick thin.
It does seem that, for me at least, this holds some truth - it is the sugary stuff that is worse.
ill talk a confident guess at the yumyum diet bringing more weight gain - plus probably diabetes.
Which essentially undermines the calories in calories out model.
It does seem that, for me at least, this holds some truth - it is the sugary stuff that is worse.
So perhaps now that you have learned something, you can apologise for the bigotry and insult?
I am so glad I am not as intelligent as you.
as you thought I was serious then I won't dispute your supposition...
Exactly my point (for toys' benefit, I don't know the exact answer but I know which would result in more gain). It's a bit more complicated than deviant's calories imbalance theory. To be fair, I thought we all knew that - but it seems it still gets rolled out (or have I been trolled) by posters who then paint others as being "in denial".
for toys' benefit, I don't know the exact answer but I know which would result in more gain
It's all right DD I never ask for evidence if it confirms my bias. 😀
as you thought I was serious then I won't dispute your supposition...
ha ha
What do you think would happen were I to consume a say, 500-1000 calorie a day excess in (total) vegetables for a few months, and then swapped over for a few months to a similar excess in (total) butterscotch yumyums? Would I gain more weight on the yumyum diet (as fun as if might be) or on the nothing but veg diet?
You'll be taking in an excess of calories with both models and would probably gain some weight....
....seeing as the calories tied up in yumyums is simple sugar you'll probably not get through that instant release of energy quickly enough and end up putting on more weight than with the excess in veg which is (generally) a slower release form of energy for the body to use.
That was easy....and nothing we didnt already know.
Who on earth is advocating an extreme diet of one food stuff to the exclusion of others?
It comes down to a balanced diet and gauging how many calories you as an individual need for a typical day/week etc etc....then start to tinker if you're putting on weight (or losing it) against your wishes etc
Nobody is saying that 2500 calories a day of sugar is the same as 2500 calories a day of protein....we know that sugars affect the body differently to fat or protein, the energy peaks and crashes would be hideous
There is an assumption when talking about diet that an individual is not being so stupid as to eat yumyums constantly throughout the day.
🙄
Mixed diet, take some exercise, find what your calorie limit is for maintaining a constant weight....its not difficult.
Grum, from that article you linked to:
Bottom Line: Saying that weight gain is caused by excess calories is true, but meaningless. It tells you nothing about the actual cause.The article cant make up its mind, in the above snippet it says what several of us have already said: that an excess of calories causes weight gain....it then tries to tell you that this is the cause but actually isnt...or some other mealy mouthed nonsense?....it talks about certain foods filling you up more than others, some foods stopping the hunger signals sooner than others and how crash dieting can cause the body to hold onto fat, that 100gms of sugar will be used differently by the body than 100gms of protein etc etc....none of this is new information.
All you're saying here is that you can't cope with any kind of nuanced argument and you need everything to be reduced down to a very basic premise that fits neatly with your prejudices.
Mixed diet, take some exercise, find what your calorie limit is for maintaining a constant weight....its not difficult.
Well it's getting rather complicated for me now........I thought you just had to eat less?
Which essentially undermines the calories in calories out model.
which I never proposed at any point in this thread.
Which essentially undermines the calories in calories out model.
It does seem that, for me at least, this holds some truth - it is the sugary stuff that is worse.So perhaps now that you have learned something, you can apologise for the bigotry and insult?
can't quite see the link ?
What have I learnt that I did write on the thread myself, that means that I should apologize ?
9 pages of the usual arguments, have we worked out who is actually fattest yet?
Ya gotta love an STW diet thread, they're great entertainment.
ernie_lynch - MemberWell it's getting rather complicated for me now........I thought you just had to eat less?
You do.
....but if you need it spelling out then i'm happy to help.
Find your calorie limit that allows you to maintain a constant weight....then eat less of it to reduce your weight.
Its almost like magic and works the other way if you're trying to gain weight.
Find your calorie limit that allows you to maintain a constant weight....then eat less of it to reduce your weight.
but weren't you saying that if you eat something that loads you up with calories/sugar quickly then your body is going to need to deal with the excess and will store it as fat, whereas something that releases the energy more slowly might avoid the fat generation stage.
And if you have stored that fat earlier then you might end up eating more than you calorie limit later as you are hungry and it is not so simple/quick for your body to release those fat stores, or at least not quick enough to stop you being hungry.
So eating slow release foods, like porridge, might be beneficial?
but if you need it spelling out then i'm happy to help.Find your calorie limit that allows you to maintain a constant weight....then eat less of it to reduce your weight.
But you also said :
Nobody is saying that 2500 calories a day of sugar is the same as 2500 calories a day of protein
🙁
So eating slow release foods, like porridge, might be beneficial?
Why the pedant mode?...this might, just might come under 'mixed diet' dont you think?
I said in a previous post that only an idiot would eat certain food groups to the exclusion of others, i thought i illustrated it simply enough when i said that only a stupid person would get all their calories from yumyums throughout the day.
With regard to hunger, yes that is often part and parcel of losing weight...we have brains and can decide not to eat when hungry, hunger is not a sensation that has to be acted on, people can exercise some discipline and go without for a while.
🙄
Dont worry boys, one day they will prove that being bigoted is not something you can choose to do, you just can't help it. So then us bigot baiters will be the bad guys.
Argualympians be arguing....
[img] 
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😐
Find your calorie limit that allows you to maintain a constant weight....then eat less of it to reduce your weight.
Its almost like magic and works the other way if you're trying to gain weight.
Hmmm...a little more complicated that...
I said in a previous post that only an idiot would eat certain food groups to the exclusion of others, i thought i illustrated it simply enough when i said that only a stupid person would get all their calories from yumyums throughout the day.
So it's not as simple as how much you eat, but what you eat ?
I thought I said that at the start of the thread ?
EDIT : I did, six pages ago :
ernie_lynch - MemberI thought the increase in obesity was more connected with the fact that we are now eating different food to what we were a few decades ago, rather than an increase in quantity of food.....
Posted 3 days ago
Ha ha Tea and Medals to DD for coming up with that peach of a poser.
two down..
So then us bigot baiters will be the bad guys.
I bl88dy hate bigot baiters, although I am not sure why...
Dont worry boys, one day they will prove that being bigoted is not something you can choose to do, you just can't help it
I am not sure about that - but anyway.
My fatist tendencies started I think when I watched a documentary about liposuction.
The surgeon had this naked fat girl lying on the slab and he drew on her with felt tip pen along the lines he was going to tuck in, once he had sucked out the fat.
He then proceeded to make a cut in her buttock and push in this stainless steel pipe, like the hose from a dyson, into her and then turn it on. It was a fight getting it in and he had to shove a lot, with her fat posterior wobbling about in sympathy.
The tube from the pipe was transparent and you could see all the light brown fat being sucked out 🙄
Then my girlfriend at Uni was studying medicine and came back and described how they dissected a (dead) fat guy that day, and had to surround the operating table with buckets to catch the fat running out.
That sounds terrible TurnerGuy - have you hated fat people ever since ?
Hold on a sec. I can't be overweight. I can't stand yumyums, they have nuts on which make me ill!
That sounds terrible TurnerGuy - have you hated fat people ever since ?
I don't hate them, just am wary of them...
It wasn't a nice image.
Something like this, but the women was fatter and the tube he used wasn't as slim :
I don't hate them, just am wary of them..
What are you wary about - that they might spread their fat onto you ?
.toys19 - Member
Dont worry boys, one day they will prove that being bigoted is not something you can choose to do, you just can't help it. So then us bigot baiters will be the bad guys.
Or put another way agree with toys R us or your a bigot. Bigot appears to be your word for the day...every day!!
I think people who are fat eat to much...opps that makes me a bigot or possibly Toy R us is a fan of censorship?