Ernie. Pagan fertility symbols for the spring festival .
No link to christianity at all
Is that why you don’t see bunnies, lambs, and eggs, in churches
The lamb is quite common in Christian churches (may just be a left footer thing though), windows etc, Jesus being the lamb of god
Not just European either
Interesting . Do you think there were pre Christian spring festivals in the Middle East?
Where else outside Europe do you think there were pre Christian spring festivals which the current Easter celebrations attached themselves to?
Jesus being the lamb of god
Because of the connection to a pre Christian spring festival, or because of animal husbandry practices in Levant a few thousand years ago?
And was lambs blood used in mark the houses of the Israelites in ancient Egypt during the Passover because it corresponded with a pagan spring festival in Europe?
Because of the connection to a pre Christian spring festival, or because of animal husbandry practices in Levant a few thousand years ago?
That would be an ecumenical matter.
Marking the passing of seasons with ceremonies seems fairly universal worldwide. Canadian first nations do i believe.
South American indigenous peoples did as well again i think and like the stone circle builders in the uk build huge constructions to measure the passing of the seasons
Eggs are clearly a fertility symbol not a Christian one at all. I have heard it said it symbolizes the stone rolled from the door but thats somewhat farfetched to me given the obvious link with spring and fertility
That would be an ecumenical matter.
DRINK!
The lamb in this instance comes from the Jewish faith and the sacrificial lamb the night before the exodus from Egypt - the feast of Passover is the remembrance of their deliverance from servitude. {EDIT: Ernie got there first] As Ernie rightly says the Feast of Passover is essentially the foundation of the Easter story - the Last Supper is the Passover meal and if you attend a service of vigil there is much overlap with Jewish traditions, readings from the Old Testament - which must include a reading from Exodus, singing of Psalms etc. Easter in the catholic churches does not always coincide with Passover because of the conversion to the Gregorian calendar, but it does in the Orthodox church.
Easter was actually mentioned in the first post of this thread, and whether "foreigners" sell Easter eggs cheap after Easter Monday.
different nationalities, even within a race*, do have different characteristics and habits
Missed this earlier.
You cannot ascribe characteristics to people based on the country they are from. Different countries do have different collective behaviours, this is called culture. Because people do things that people around them do, you can make certain cultural generalisations and predictions, but only where it pertains to cultural behaviour, not innate personal characteristics. So for example, some Asian cultures encourage or even mandate strong deference to authority, but you can't then say that Asian people are cowards.
They actually know when the crucifixion occurred, it occurred during Passover which is a movable feast dependant on the moon
it still happened on a specific date allegedly so why not celebrate the single most important point of Christianity on that specific date? There is less flexibility shown on when we venerate Guy Fawkes trying to blow up parliament on when the monarchs fake birthday is. I don’t understand why the restriction isn’t vibrated in the date it haunted if it’s that important
You cannot ascribe characteristics to people based on the country they are from. Different countries do have different collective behaviours, this is called culture. Because people do things that people around them do, you can make certain cultural generalisations and predictions, but only where it pertains to cultural behaviour, not innate personal characteristics. So for example, some Asian cultures encourage or even mandate strong deference to authority, but you can’t then say that Asian people are cowards.
Characteristics was a poor choice of word, apologies.
What i mean is that even within a race (eg: white European) certain nationalities have different cultures - contrast Italians with Swedes for example. But both white European. So to the comment I was commenting on
Working with staff of 7 different nationalities to British I have to say their casual racism to each other and well everyone is shockingly worse than I’ve heard against them.
I'm still uncertain if that is really racism, and whether commenting on differences / ascribing cultural differences to each other when meant as humour (and indeed agree with another post that humour is more in the definition of the target than the creator) is a problem or not.
Like I said in my post - this confuses the hell out of me. I think I mainly get it right but I couldn't particularly explain why / what 'right' is.
I have heard it said it symbolizes the stone rolled from the door but that's somewhat farfetched to me given the obvious link with spring and fertility
A valid interpretation according to my Re teacher wife!
They actually know when the crucifixion occurred
They don't "actually know" anything of the sort. (Whoever "they" are.) They don't actually know whether Jesus even existed (it seems likely but far from definite). They may well believe but that's not the same thing.
We don't really know a good many things from way more recent history. Robin Hood, for instance. That's a legend from, what, C15? And we don't know what if any of it is much more than folklore. We've got buckleys of "knowing" what happened two millennia ago.
As well as overt racism, I have seen a lot of casual racism - when you have dual heritage, and some people believe you are white-European with a Mediterranean complexion.
They actually know when the crucifixion occurred
They don’t “actually know” anything of the sort.
I think they know their religion better than you do cougar. For Christians when the crucifixion occurred is not an unknown - it occurred the day following the Passover meal. Which is why Easter is celebrated when it is.
In contrast according to the bible when the birth of Christ occurred is an unknown (in terms of which time in the year) and has very likely been attached to a convenient existing mid winter festival.
Obviously you are free to reject it all as complete tosh and that none of it ever happened, but that is why Easter is celebrated when it is.
Obviously you are free to reject it all as complete tosh and that none of it ever happened, but that is why Easter is celebrated when it is.
The problem with any sort of ancient text, is theres no document control.. If there are multiple steps in the translation process, then it’s likely something gets lost in translation. If modern Bible translations are a translation of a translation of a translation of a...well, you get the point...
I mean just look at Henry VIII, I think it was... don't like the fact you can't divorce? No problem, just create a new type of Chistianity that suits you, and start persecuting the other ones, and that was technically the same language!
God knows what got lost in translation from the Hebrew Bible to its Greek translation, the Septuagint, in the Hellenistic period (c. 300 BCE–c. 300 CE)
Islam is no different.. how many different flavours of that are there, that fight tooth and claw with each other?... they can't all be right. They can all be wrong, though!
"As well as overt racism, I have seen a lot of casual racism"
You could never accuse these guys of casual racism, though.
Woppit to the forum, please.
I suppose if religion threads always get closed then divert a racism one.
I think they know their religion better than you do cougar. For Christians when the crucifixion occurred is not an unknown – it occurred the day following the Passover meal. Which is why Easter is celebrated when it is.
The issue is that nobody knows it. It’s based on conjecture, legends and ancient texts that have been translated time and again. Add in the bits that were inevitably cut out or altered and that leaves nobody in a position of any real authority on the subject.
I think they know their religion better than you do cougar.
I have no doubts that they believe they do. And that's absolutely fine.
They can know the teachings, they can know the narrative and the symbolism and so forth of course. But they cannot know events from two millennia ago as irrefutable historical fact, it's simply not possible. Contemporary records are vanishingly thin and it's a misconception that everyone was illiterate at the time. Today we live in an unparalleled age of communication and it's hard to know with any real certainty what happened last week.
As I said, it seems likely from what records do exist that someone named Jesus (or regional variations thereof) lived at that time, made himself a bit of a pain in the arse for the Romans and got nailed to a cross for his troubles. Son of god, feeding the 5,000, curing the blind, not so much. But it's not difficult to see how word-of-mouth stories might get passed down through the years and centuries, embellished slightly at every retelling.
For Christians when the crucifixion occurred is not an unknown – it occurred the day following the Passover meal.
Why specify "Christians" here? It's either known or it isn't.
"But they cannot know events from two millennia ago as irrefutable historical fact, it’s simply not possible."
lolwut
lolwut
... within context.
We know, for instance, how Vesuvius erupted because we can go dig in the ground and examine it. Of eye-witness accounts though, there is precisely one. Count the [citation needed]s in the Wikipedia article:
Reconstructions of the eruption and its effects vary considerably in the details but have the same overall features. The eruption lasted for two days.[citation needed] Pliny the Younger, author of the only surviving written testimony, described the morning before the eruption as normal; however, he was staying at Misenum 29 kilometres (18 mi) from the volcano across the Bay of Naples, and may not have noticed the early signs of the eruption.[according to whom?][citation needed] During the next two days, he did not have any opportunity to talk to people who had witnessed the eruption from Pompeii or Herculaneum,[according to whom?] and Pompeii is never mentioned in his letter.[citation needed]
Around 1:00 p.m., Mount Vesuvius erupted violently, spewing up a high-altitude column from which ash and pumice began to fall, blanketing the area.[citation needed] Rescues and escapes occurred during this time.[citation needed] At some time in the night or early the next day, pyroclastic flows in the close vicinity of the volcano began; lights seen on the mountain were interpreted as fires, and people as far away as Misenum fled for their lives.[citation needed] The flows were rapid-moving, dense, and very hot, wholly or partly knocking down all structures in their path, incinerating or suffocating the remaining population and altering the landscape, including the coastline.[citation needed] These were accompanied by additional tremors and a mild tsunami in the Bay of Naples.[citation needed] One or more earthquakes at this time were strong enough to cause buildings to collapse at least in Pompeii killing the occupants.[15][better source needed] By the evening of the second day, the eruption was over, leaving only haze in the atmosphere, screening sunlight.[citation needed]
If we can't physically examine something then we're relying on people's accounts, and people are unreliable. Exponentially so if they're putting quill to parchment a couple of centuries after an event.
Why specify “Christians” here? It’s either known or it isn’t.
It is weird how this appears difficult for some people to understand. Christians haven't chosen a random day in the year to celebrate Easter, which was the claim that originally kicked this all off, it fits in with their beliefs and scriptures.
Good Friday is the day after the Passover. And the Passover is the first full moon in the Hebrew month of Nisan.
In contrast the date of December 25 for Christmas is, as far as I know, a randomly chosen day.
The original comment claimed that Easter was a random day and that Christmas was a specific date. In fact the reverse is true. That is all.
And why specify Christians here ? Because we are discussing Christianity. In the case of Islam, for example, Ramadan, which commemorates the Prophet's first divine revelation, starts with the crescent moon on the ninth Islamic month. It is also a specific day. In ancient times people attached events to what was occurring in the skies. Whether the Prophet actually had a revelation or not is irrelevant to why the day is chosen.
I am not sure what the argument is about 😆
It is weird how this appears difficult for some people to understand. Christians haven’t chosen a random day in the year to celebrate Easter, which was the claim that originally kicked this all off, it fits in with their beliefs and scriptures.
Of course it does.
But that's not knowledge, it is belief. It is weird how this appears difficult for some people to understand.
I am not sure what the argument is about 😆
Well, that's a first.
All knowledge is provisional and subject to change in the light of new evidence.
The End.
Notwithstanding the above, it is generally sensible to carry on as if some knowledge is absolute, without wasting too much time over its fallibility, cos if you spend all your day wondering about everything, you never get anything done.
Do we now have two threads discussing this? We need an Easter thread 🐇
Anyway:
Good Friday is the day after the Passover. And the Passover is the first full moon in the Hebrew month of Nisan.
Maybe originally, I dunno, but that doesn't quite work out now seeing as Nissan only starts next week and Passover this year begins on 22/April! Something got lost along the years. Probably by swapping to a different calendar altogether. Which, yes, would make Easter nowadays happen on a random date at approximately the right time of year and not the date it actually happened (assuming it did) in any calendar.
So the date of Easter is based on an event even further back which chronological recorded based on where the moon randomly was in the sky. Yep I'm convinced it's a hard historical fact.
Nissan only starts next week and Passover this year begins on 22/April!
Are you confusing Passover with Corolloaver?
So the date of Easter is based on an event even further back which chronological recorded based on where the moon randomly was in the sky. Yep I’m convinced it’s a hard historical fact.
The date of your birth is based on where the sun randomly was in the sky at the time, therefore I don't believe you exist either, so there 😛
@Cougar I don't get it... unless you are confusing Nissan with Toyota? 😉
... Maybe it was a Prayerie?
At severe risk of rerailing this topic, have you ever noticed how people who talk about "them" and what "they" are up to are the same ones that get really upset about non-specific pronouns?
What is the specific pronoun for a group of people?
Nissan only starts next week and Passover this year begins on 22/April! Something got lost along the years.
Well firstly by definition Good Friday is always on a Friday so it isn't one hundred percent set by the Luna phases, and secondly of the perspective of the moon varies according to where on the planet you are. Which is why Ramadan does not necessarily start on the same day throughout the world.
I find this whole debate rather weird. I wasn't aware that the claim that religions often use lunar calendars was controversial.
Yep I’m convinced it’s a hard historical fact.
I think it is safe to say that your are the first person to mention "hard historical fact".
I’m going out on a limb here and thinking we can safely say nobody rose from the dead and shifted a massive boulder from the mouth of a cave at any point in history.
I could beleive someone 2000 years ago rising "from the dead" after 3 days. Medical knowledge of the time was awful, more than a millenia later we were still accidently burying people alive.
But someone who had been dehydrated for 3 days in the middle east, who had been suspended from nails through their hands and feet having the strength to move a boulder big enough to be sealing their tomb?
At severe risk of rerailing this topic...
🤣🤣🤣
A quick summary from what I have read on this thread so far
Religion and Religious Celebrations - There are only so many days in the year so there will be events held on, or around, the same dates in any religion/cult that holds events. If you were setting up a religion it would be good to have an event in the middle of winter to cheer people up and perhaps another at the start of Spring so they can look forward to the good weather. Religions rely on their followers joining in so it is best to make it easy for them.
Racism (and lots of other ~isms) - People get a feeling of security and peace of mind by being part of a group. That could be religious, cultural or pretty much anything else. When they feel another group is encroaching on them, they get defensive and hostile. This defensiveness against the ‘others’ can get overt, such as hanging petrol filled tyres around their necks and lighting them, or more casual where ignorance or mild fear means they treat ‘them’ differently.
When someone's views, be they religious, racist or other, are questioned the person tries to defend them. If they are defending them to someone who agrees with them it is easy and reassuring. When they defend them to someone who disagrees it can spiral into stupidity and name calling. Most ideas and beliefs don’t work very well if you closely scrutinise them and try to find situations where they don’t make sense.
Seem reasonable?
secondly of the perspective of the moon varies according to where on the planet you are. Which is why Ramadan does not necessarily start on the same day throughout the world.
Interesting, never knew that. The Jewish calendar is also (mostly) lunar based but the beginning of the month is based on the new moon in Israel, so it's all the same day worldwide. (New moon here meaning first appearance of the moon, not what we call new moon ie no moon)
I think it is safe to say that your are the first person to mention “hard historical fact”.
It's not all that safe. Perhaps you should read the rest of the thread?
FFS don't start on historians, only the winners survive to write their history for a startw
only the winners survive to write their history for a start
Whilst they normally get to control what is written it isnt guaranteed and normally a fair few of the losers survive and on occasion get to write the histories.
An example being when was the last time England was successfully invaded.
If you were setting up a religion it would be good to have an event in the middle of winter to cheer people up and perhaps another at the start of Spring so they can look forward to the good weather.
Its also useful to have an "obvious" mark for the days in question eg shortest day/longest and so on. Something you can knock up a quick stone circle for.
As such it would lead to dates being roughly similar. Especially when its also good if you can tie your new religion to the old one eg match their minor deities to saints and so forth and borrow their religious centres.
[i]Its also useful to have an “obvious” mark for the days in question eg shortest day/longest and so on. Something you can knock up a quick stone circle for.[/i]
Exactly. Same with locations. Build on the top of a hill, at the junction of roadways etc. They are not 'sacred' locations, just the obvious ones.
I didn’t know that lambs, eggs, and bunnies, were pagan symbols. Do bunnies represent a pagan god that I don’t know about?
Bunnies no, hares yes and quite a lot of it. I'm assuming that the small mammals with long ears that famously frolic around Easter may have got mixed up with the small but cuter mammal with long ears that was imported by the Normans and became far more widespread.
someone who had been dehydrated for 3 days in the middle east, who had been suspended from nails through their hands and feet having the strength to move a boulder big enough to be sealing their tomb?
Also stabbed with a spear? I'd go so far as to call it a miracle.
small but cuter mammal with long ears that was imported by the Normans
Also Romans, though they probably didn't spread then https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/apr/18/ben-fur-romans-brought-rabbits-to-britain-experts-discover
...which article also says:
The first historical mention of an “Easter bunny” is in fact an Easter hare, and is found in a German text from 1682. It is not clear how, when or why the rabbit became linked to the Easter festival.
I could research this further, but nah, now I'm an expert too.
p.s. I witnessed no casual racism this easter. But then I live in a bit of a bubble.
Also stabbed with a spear? I’d go so far as to call it a miracle.
Or make believe.
I still don’t get the Last Supper betrayal. Joe hard could it have been to track down thirteen folk taking up a table for 26 in a local restaurant. The other patrons Google reviews would’ve given it away
Hey,
My mother's family are from Turkey and my fathers from Southern Europe. I have natural dark skin you could say. I worked in Germany I have had a co worker call my skin dirty, I had a Dutch boss turn around and say a colleague was proper British because his skin was white and he had blue eyes. I regularly have border control quiz me about where I have come from and what I have been doing. I guess it's everywhere ;-( personally I'd prefer me than be the usual Brit... Oh and I can have Dual nationality 😉
BR
JeZ
Fixed calendars are a pretty recently invention (as far as religions are concerned), so Jesus death being "at Passover" is a pretty accurate fixing as far as it goes for ancient literature. Also Jesus birthday hasn't been superimposed on a pagan mid winter festival, its probably Sol Invictus who was a Roman deity, who's celebration date is the 25th December. It's first mentioned (as Christmas) in a lost document called the Chronograpgh of 354AD written for a wealthy Roman called Valentinus and if you called him Pagan, you'd probs a get the edge of a gladius for your trouble, or he'd certainly get some-one to do it for him anyway.
The stuff about early Christians superimposing their celebration onto Pagan ones is either 1. because lunar calendars were what everyone used and it's hardly surprising that equinox's and the like are the normal fixes for all celebrations through the year, and everyone did the important ones at about the same time in the year. And 2. made up 1970's hippy bollox. The modern Church =/= 3rd Century church.
Perhaps you should read the rest of the thread?
Oh go on cougar, tell me where else on this thread anyone has made claims concerning "hard historical fact”. I certainly haven't seen any.
What has been discussed is how the date of Easter is decided. Bizarrely some have tried to claim that it was not based on lunar phases and related to the Passover and that instead it is based on a pre Christian festival.
I am not sure what the point of all that was other than perhaps a convoluted way for the individuals concerned to show their perceived intellectual superiority over religious believers.
Edit: Why the **** does the fancy new editor throw up random font sizes?? Why can't we have the old one that worked fine back?
Oh go on cougar, tell me where else on this thread anyone has made claims concerning “hard historical fact”. I certainly haven’t seen any.
Half a dozen or so posts back from the poster you quoted.
Edit: Why the **** does the fancy new editor throw up random font sizes?? Why can’t we have the old one that worked fine back?
Because it's not new, it's shit known to have compatibility issues with the software underpinning the STW forum.
@jezzep I just want to recognise your valiant attempt to get the thread back on track.
Ernie.
You totally missed the point that i was making which is that tbe spring equinox was celebrated using fertility symbols long before christianity or Judaism was thought of.
These symbols the rabbit or hare and eggs are nothing to do with christianity or judaism.
The point is that christianity co opted pre existing festivals religious symbols and gods.
Yes I have totally got your point TJ, believe me. And I agree 100% with this:
These symbols the rabbit or hare and eggs are nothing to do with christianity or judaism.
I just don't agree with your weird conclusion that this proves that Easter is a pre Christian festival. It isn't. But I get what you are saying.
Thats not what i said tho😜. What i said was christianity co opted existing festivals which its clear they did and that a spring festival is fairly universal. Maybe that irritating jewish prophet was executed around the spring equinox or maybe not. No one knows and rigourous historical data is in short supply at best.
Remember that all this was written down and codified hundreds of years after the events supposedly took place.
I just don’t agree with your weird conclusion that this proves that Easter is a pre Christian festival. It isn’t.
The name is though. From Eostre a Germanic goddess of spring.
Blokeuptheroad
As in the post earlier evidence of that is pretty thin as well
What i said was christianity co opted existing festivals which its clear they did
And well known; in fact even Victorian missionaries were using native beliefs and practices to bring Christianity to other tribes around the world. It's the most effective method.
However, it's a bit of a stretch to say that Easter as we know it is pre-Christian, because all that happens at Easter is people go to Church and do Christian stuff. Christmas on the other hand is primarily a secular feast at least in the UK, in my view.
"Do we now have two threads discussing this?"
This is the one true thread on the subject. All other threads are heretical nonsense.
The name is though. From Eostre a Germanic goddess of spring.
Yeah that's a point that I mentioned to TJ yesterday on the previous page. Quote:
"I am surprised that you haven’t mentioned the actual word “Easter”, which I think is only used in Germanic speaking countries and refers to a pagan goddess who previously had April named after her."
It is called Easter because it was named after the month.
Friday is named after the Germanic goddess Frigga. It doesn't mean though that Good Friday is a pagan celebration.
So, that Easter Bunny, coming over here taking the Easter Hares job. Bloody foreigners 🙄
named after the Germanic goddess Frigga. It doesn’t mean though that Good Friday is a pagan celebration.
What do they do to celebrate 😯
Well I am no expert when it comes to pagan celebrations but I have been informed that pagans apparently like to celebrate by frolicking naked around stone circles..
TFiF
all that happens at Easter is people go to Church and do Christian stuff. Christmas on the other hand is primarily a secular feast at least in the UK, in my view.
Anecdotally at least, I'd have thought it was the other way around.
I know a couple of self-proclaimed Christians whose idea of faith is to rock up to church for Midnight Mass every year (and a few who actively practice throughout the year). I don't know anyone who, in a religious manner, observes Easter but not Christmas.
Easter is the more important festival - but Christmas is also important - you can't have the omega without the alpha afterall. Between the two of them they define much of the liturgical year for the Western Churches, but the special services are saved for the Triduum, the three days from the evening of Maundy Thursday until Easter Day itself.
I recall reading an article that seemed quite plausibly authoritative, that said that the whole virgin birth story was co-opted from Roman(?) mythology, long after the supposed events took place, with the aim of luring them into the religion.
No idea how widely accepted this may be among scholars of the historical period.
It was a long time ago - like decades - that I read this. So my memory may be at fault.
Isaiah prophesized the virgin birth about 700 years before Christ, so unlikely.
.
Mattyfez casts doubt on the reliability of the Bible as a historical document. He or anyone else who doubts needs to check out the dead sea scrolls some of which were contemporary for the late pre-Christian and early Christian period.
Mattyfez casts doubt on the reliability of the Bible as a historical document.
It’s a story that includes magic not an historical document. A bunch of fables stitched together. No religious text can be described as a reliable historical document with a straight face.
Did anyone score cheap eggs today?
And yet when you look at the historical, geological and archaeological context a lot of it checks out. I'm an agnositic with no religious bone to grind but the Bible and those scrolls are some of the best contemporary documents we have. As reliable as hieroglyphs which we consider relibale sources of information about the Egyptian pharoahs.
Back on subject, it's worth thinking about casual xenophobia as well as racism and if you check out definitions some xenophobia is racism. Skin colour isn't the only consideration.
Did anyone score cheap eggs today?
Apparently lucky shoppers in Morrisons and Tesco have:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/27074454/discounted-easter-eggs-cadbury-lindt-morrisons/
But unfortunately foreigners in East Cleveland are apparently keeping chocolate egg prices high.
It really doesn't Educator. I have seen various academic studies of this and loads of what is in biblical stories is historically false ie the roman census was not 0bc ( there are historical records) and you went to your residence not birthplace so joeseph did not have to go to Bethlehem.
All the religious stuff including dates was decided hundreds of years later.
The general background may be reasonably accurate but the soecifics? All made up hundreds of years later
I recall reading an article that seemed quite plausibly authoritative, that said that the whole virgin birth story was co-opted from Roman(?) mythology, long after the supposed events took place, with the aim of luring them into the religion.
My understanding - which may be wrong - is the term translated into English as "virgin" doesn't actually mean what it means today. Rather it just means pure or virtuous.
I’m an agnositic with no religious bone to grind but the Bible and those scrolls are some of the best contemporary documents we have. As reliable as hieroglyphs which we consider relibale sources of information about the Egyptian pharoahs.
Do we though?
Interpretation of hieroglyphics is subjective to a degree, our scholars are still trying to work it out. As far as we know the Egyptians of the time mostly didn't understand it even, it was the language of priests.
Even if we assume for the sake of argument that our interpretation is correct, there's no guarantee that it's factually accurate rather than the musings or beliefs of the writer. Cross-referencing discrete works can help, but if they're using the same primary source then of course they're going to agree to a large extent.
They may well be the "best contemporary documents we have" in both cases, but that's a pretty hollow statement if by "best" you really mean "only."
deleted as misunderstood point being made
I said "some of the best"
I didn't say only because there are others if you can be bothered to look. I said some "some of the best" because they are until you come up with significantly better.
I make one of the least controversial statements I have on STW and come under attack because the documents form the basis of a religion and some people on STW have levels of religious intollerance that blind them to useful sources.
