[Closed] You can tell they are clutching at straws when...

It is a bit of a feeble policy but I don't see how it's unenforceable. Must be about the easiest thing to enforce.

It's not a plastic bag tax - it's a re-usable bag supplement.

I agree its not exactly a big announcement but really should have be brought in years ago. Mental that England is the only country in the UK where this is not in place. Seems to work pertly well everywhere else.

This really should just be part of a larger announcement regarding waste or why can't local councils just manage a rule like this.

All plastic bags?

Shopping bags, frezer bags, bin bags, body bags?

Carrier bags from large retailers. I'd be surprised if the tory right allowed this to pass unchallanged.

All plastic bags?

Shopping bags, frezer bags, bin bags, body bags?

I always re-use body bags so won't impact on me.

I would say this is the classic example of why there either should be a separate English parliament or far more power devolved to local councils. Is this really something the British parliament should be dealing with. Not really in the same league as Syria or the economy.

I agree its not exactly a big announcement but really should have be brought in years ago. Mental that England is the only country in the UK where this is not in place. Seems to work pertly well everywhere else.

This really should just be part of a larger announcement regarding waste or why can't local councils just manage a rule like this.

Yeah, it has worked elsewhere (Ireland, Wales). And the money from it goes to various charities rather than the chancellors back pocket. Personally I think it's about time. It's a drop in the ocean of course but regardless if it motivates people to stop using or re-use plastic carrier bags then no reason not to implement it

Labour to oppose "plastic bag tax which oppresses the poor" in 3,2,1...

So do we all buy bin liners now, or just tip our garbage straight into the wheelie bin ?

Being on the binwagon will be even less fun than it looks now in a couple of years

I do hope Labour stand up for the poor, it'll be them who suffer

Edit, bawbags. 46s too slow for the proper effect

I'm pretty sure that when I was a kid you had to pay for plastic bags from Tesco so it's not like it's a new idea!

So do we all buy bin liners now, or just tip our garbage straight into the wheelie bin ?

+1

Ban all carrier bags. Pay for them changes nothing.

Is this really something the British parliament should be dealing with. Not really in the same league as Syria or the economy

I did not realise there was a threshold of importance below which democracy and the law should not apply.

Sorry. What should we do? Usher Muslim extremists in?

Right on Israels borders too.

Its ok though 1/2billion of taxpayers money is on its way to Syria. There will be British pensioners dying in the cold this winter too.

Good enough for you?

Pay for them changes nothing.

it eases the guilt of the middle classes.

Take a good idea (reduce plastic bags), create a headline, fudge the details, execute poorly and forget about it 18 month later. Another gov botch in the making? We shall see.

Alternatively, simply encourage companies like Boots/Tesco to encourage good behaviour through points for recycling (what they do alread). Simple, job done.. Move on.....

Expect more silliness with Tories scared of UKIP and the LIbDems scared of the greens. Guaranteed to result in plenty of silly headline initiatives with bugger all follow through. It's conference time!!!!!!

Does anyone actually have any intrest in what the lib dems are allowed to say by cameroonvague.con.

Like a wasp at a picnic, they have no power,are just attention seeking and are of litle intrest to the majority of people.

What exactly were you expecting? Something resembling an economic policy worthy of the name? I think we'll be waiting a while for that!

If I have to pay for a plastic bag, I would expect the quality to reflect the price paid. If the arse drops out of it when you leave the store could you be entitled to a free replacement or money back. Certainly would see paying for a biodegradable bag as poor value.
Is this policy aimed at people who send carrier bags filled with carrier bags to landfill?

It's aimed at selfish tightwads who still use carrier bags despite having perfectly good alternatives available.

Pet ASBOs.

[i]Yeah, it has worked elsewhere (Ireland, Wales). And the money from it goes to various charities rather than the chancellors back pocket. [/i]

Are you sure? As Clegg said that it will go to the retailer who he 'hopes' will donate it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24088523

Does this change your view now, or are you happy that Tesco's and the like will sell you a bag for 5p that cost them a fraction of a penny?

http://www.carrierbagchargewales.gov.uk/consumers/proceeds/?lang=en

already been ripped off in Wales too:

[i]The money raised is collected by the retailer and the Welsh Government wants this to be passed on to good causes, preferably environmental good causes, here in Wales[/i]

I reuse my bags anyhow, for rubbish (and taking lunch to work!).

Does this change your view now, or are you happy that Tesco's and the like will sell you a bag for 5p that cost them a fraction of a penny?

No. Besides I don't use carrier bags, I have reusable bags for shopping. I didn't need a 5p charge to remind me I shouldn't endlessly use plastic bags every time I go shopping. Frankly I don't care where the 5p goes, the government can have it. If it makes people have a re-think and more consideration about using or re-using bags.

Won't somebody think of the turtles.

[i]Frankly I don't care where the 5p goes, the government can have it.[/i]

But that's the point, it goes to the retailer - therefore just another area for them to profit from.

Frankly I don't care where the 5p goes, the government can have it.

But that's the point, it goes to the retailer - therefore just another area for them to profit from.

But I still don't care. If it persuades people to re-use bags then everyone's a winner. The environment is helped out (albeit in a very small way), and the supermarkets don't get the 5 pence anyway. Just re-use bags or buy some of those 'lifetime bags'. It's not a big ask, it's not a big expense.

I don't see what is bad about it or why you are so determined to find fault with it.

What narks me off is when you cycle to the supermarket (with limited carry space), and everything is MULTI-BUY special offers you can't possibly fit in the panniers.

Last time I was in Wales the local shops just had a collection tin for two or three charities on the counter, if you wanted a bag you made a donation to whichever charity you preferred. Seemed to work very well, although the shopkeeper in one place did say that the locals weren't at all happy with it.

There are better ways to reduce your use of fossil fuels than reusing plastic bags, but to mention them would result in me being accused of being preachy, so I won't.

[url= http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/meat-wastes-natural-resources.aspx ]

It takes more than 11 times as much fossil fuel to make one calorie from animal protein as it does to make one calorie from plant protein.

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.farmlandlp.com/2011/01/oil-and-food-prices/ ]

Weighing in at 1,250 pounds (567 kilograms), Marina Wilson’s champion steer Grandview Rebel is ready for auction at a county fair in Maryland. Raising this steer has taken an agricultural investment equal to 283 gallons (1,071 liters) of oil, represented here by the red drums. That includes everything from fertilizers on cornfields to the diesel that runs machinery on the farm. Overall, it takes three-quarters of a gallon of oil to produce a pound of beef.

We take our own bags to the supermarket. A large rucksac since I walk home.

However, when I get the internet delivery, every flippin item is in its own bag. I assume they won't charge me for that or just deliver in boxes?

Interesting reading MTQGraham

Edit: where do I stand (environmentally) using disposable carrier bags as bin bags? I figure I either use the bags they give me for free, or I buy bin liners. When the 5p tax comes in I'll probably resort to buying bin liners and use re-useable bags for the supermarket.

Typical career politician coming up with half baked idea. Surprise? 😆

It's very simple really.

1. Ban all free plastic bag especially those from supermarkets.

What is 5p or 10p if it means convenient for the shoppers? What can you buy with that? How many sweets can you buy with 10p?

Charging is not a solution.

2. Replace them with paper bags that is environmental friendly. That's another controversy but at least it's recyclable. Just don't cut down the rainforest for it but I bet it will ... can always use bamboo made paper bags. Bamboo grows quickly and it is grass which is good and Panda loves them.

3. Let people decide how they want to carry their food from supermarket. Tough shite if you are inconvenient ... eat less buy less and carry less.

🙄

p/s: my shopping bag is Ortlieb messenger bag I bought from a STW member that will last me a life time 😆

Well I think it is a good thing, though not really worthy of a big announcement at a party conference. I must have at least 10 or 15 'bags for life' which I always forget to take with me to the supermarket so keep on bringing back 6 or 7 plastic bags every time I go to the supermarket. Once they start charging then I will definitely remember.

Seems ridiculous that the supermarkets can't all get together to agree to do this between them rather than having to have politicians introduce it. What a waste of time.

But that's coalition politics for you. The Lib Dems want it, they've got it, so can't complain.

It's aimed at selfish tightwads who still use carrier bags despite having perfectly good alternatives available.

use them as bin bags, rather than paying for a bag specifically for the purpose of putting it into a landfill, you mean?

I take reusable bags/backpacks whenever I shop, but if I end up buying more than they (and my hands) can carry, I take a carrier bag. I then use that to line my bin and bag up my waste. I havent bought a bin liner in years.

Carrier bags are a simplistic "quick fix" headline grabber, are you doing your bit for the enviroment if you put 3 re-usable bags in the back of your car and drive a 20mile round trip to the out-of-town superstore?

If you pay say £30 for food per trip to the supermarket what is 30p (3 plastic carrier bags) or even 50p (5 plastic bags) if it means convenient for you?

🙄

are you doing your bit for the enviroment if you put 3 re-usable bags in the back of your car and drive a 20mile round trip to the out-of-town superstore?

You're doing something and something is better than absolutely nothing.

I think I need to start a bamboo farm and make them into strong paper bags ... 😆

I thought most people kept them for use as bin liners. It seems in fact people dump them in the bin once the shopping is packed away. There are far more effective ways of reducing landfill but don't grab headlines. Some packaging is surplus, childrens toys being an example. Many councils could do far more to aid and promote recyling.

You're doing something and something is better than absolutely nothing.

I think you mean "The smugness of feeling that you are doing something is better than the realisation that you are doing nothing significant"

No, no that's not what I meant. If I'd meant that I would have written that.

If done properly

Marks & Spencer has charged for its plastic carrier bags since May 2008, donating the profits to environmental charities and education projects, but still gives out smaller bags.

A spokesman said: "The 5p charge has helped us reduce carrier bag use by 75% in our food halls. That's over two billion fewer bags since its introduction in 2008 and over £6m has gone to good causes as a result."

Its a load of tosh though, isn't it?

Someones going to drive a big car to the out of town shopping centre, buy goods which have been shipped thousands of miles around the world, all wrapped in tons and tons of packaging before driving home again.

And not using a carrier bag is gonna save the planet?

Its a load of tosh though, isn't it?

[i]Plastic waste, including from single-use carrier bags, poses a major and growing environmental threat to
wildlife, both terrestrial and marine1. Marine litter has a large impact on the marine environment as more
than one million birds and 100,000 marine mammals die each year from becoming entangled in or ingesting
marine litter2. Research has shown that plastic pieces, ranging in size from 0.5 mm to several centimetres in
diameter, are frequently ingested by many marine animals, including seabirds, turtles, marine mammals
and fish. Plastic bags are particularly attractive to turtles, as these resemble their prey, while smaller pieces
of plastic are frequently mistaken for food by several seabird and fish species.

Ingestion of plastic poses threats to the animals concerned on different levels, the severity of which varies
from species to species. One well-documented problem is blockage and ulceration of the gastro-intestinal
tract, which limits the passage and digestion of food, and can also lead to a reduction in perceived hunger
because of stomach distension. This can deplete fat reserves, necessary for breeding and the lengthymigrations undertaken by a number of marine species, and can ultimately result in starvation3. Plastic
consumption also leads to the accumulation of toxins, such as polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), which can
disrupt circulating hormone levels, leading to problems with fertility. Autopsies of dead animals found on
beaches or captured by fisherman have revealed significant quantities of plastic in their digestive system.
98% of Fulmars in the North Sea have plastic in their stomachs which can lead to a loss of physical
condition resulting in breeding failures and in severe cases death4. Another problem caused by plastic
marine debris is entanglement, leading to drowning. A 2006 global survey by International Coastal Clean-
up (ICC) reported that 2% of all animals found dead had been entangled in plastic bags. However, the
actual scale of the problem associated with plastic waste in the marine environment is difficult to assess
and likely underestimated, as many individuals affected die at sea and quickly sink or are scavenged by
other animals.[/i]

But only from free plastic shopping bags? All purchased bags will be OK? What about the free ones that the veg goes in? The clingfilm over the meat? Etc.

When I go shopping the majority of plastic waste isn't the bags.

I think it's a good thing, anything to reduce waste and encourage recycling. I have a Decathlon re-usable bag which stuffs into a plastic ball - great bit of kit for shopping.

So legislate for the use of biodegradable plastic. But that doesn't grab healines or extract money from shoppers...

I'm not opposed to using sustainable bags (and I do). It's just importance that FREE plastic bags seem to have had assigned to them.

If it costs me 5pence it will still kill seagulls just the same as the free one.

What about the free ones that the veg goes in? The clingfilm over the meat? Etc.

Good point. So what do you suggest we do about those ?

.

EDIT : [i]If it costs me 5pence it will still kill seagulls just the same as the free one. [/i]

I take it you don't recognise market forces ?

See w3hat ohnohesback said for a start.

I think we all need to think about our usage of resources and the impact we have on the environment.

Polystyrene for a start should be banned, I reckon.

Paper bags for fruit and veg.

Less packaging generally.

EDIT: I doubt that 5pence will be enough to dissuade most folk.

I think we all need to think about our usage of resources....

You don't think that charging shoppers 5p for each disposable plastic carrier bag will help them to "think"?

Not really, no.

a quid a bag might. Or no bags at all.

I think we're getting back to whether you recognise the power market forces or not.

It's unlikely that people will use disposable plastic carrier bags willy nilly if they cost 5p each in the same way they will if they are completely free. The cost also helps to focus people's attention to the environmental impact.

Where a charge has been introduced the use of disposable plastic carrier bags has dropped dramatically.

I've seen the reports from the supermarkets of a 90% reduction in use which looks really impressive. I still, personally can't see why an extra 20 or 30 pence on a £100 shop has had such a large effect.

I would have thought that with changes in public behaviour like that we could half car use by putting fuel up by 10 pence a litre.

Its worked very well in wales, 80% reduction in use apparently

personally can't see why an extra 20 or 30 pence on a £100 shop has had such a large effect.

You're right. When Ireland introduced a charge over 10 years ago it was 12 per disposable plastic carrier bag. Within a year 90% of shoppers were using long-life bags. I agree with you that it probably needs to be more than 5p 🙂

You're right. When Ireland introduced a charge over 10 years ago it was 12 per disposable plastic carrier bag. Within a year 90% of shoppers were using long-life bags. I agree with you that it probably needs to be more than 5p

Same thing happened here in Spain, as soon as the charge came in (it's 5c a bag) most people started using long-life bags.

In Aldi you already have to pay for your bags if you want them. I have only seen a couple of people pay for them. Most people bring their own bags.

[i]I don't see what is bad about it or why you are so determined to find fault with it.

[/i]

Because it's another career living off-the-state politician intent on making my life harder/dearer - in fact I bet we'll end up paying for his when he puts in his expenses.

As others have said, look around and ask your yourself - "will it actually make a difference?", when my entire life-time usage of plastic supermarket bags is probably the same use of resources as someone driving to the coast and back. So, no and it also annoys me that it's another tax and it doesn't even go to the country, but the supermarkets bottom line.

[I]In Aldi you already have to pay for your bags if you want them. I have only seen a couple of people pay for them. Most people bring their own bags. [/i]

Or just wheel the trolley straight to the car.

it also annoys me that it's another tax and it doesn't even go to the country, but the supermarkets bottom line.

You can't have it both ways ! If the money isn't going to the government but to the supermarket, as you claim, it's not a tax.

Can someone explain how this will work?
As a shop keeper we have to spend a fortune on something that we have to give away.
A proper plastic carrier bag costs us at least 10p. A large paper carrier is nearer 30p.
Will the retailer be charged an extra 5p per bag when we buy them that we will be expected to get back from the customer?
Anything that reduces bag usage is bloody excellent by me as a retailer and me as a human being.
We always ask people if they need a bag , lots of people say yes then put their bagged purchases in their big bag.
The amount of people who ask for a paper bag to protect their cellophane wrapped greetings card when its raining is beyond belief.

I think you can have it both ways - give additional bonus points if you bring your own bag. Win-win for all without the (regressive) "tax" element. Bag usage down, consumer benefits rather than loses, supermarket gets extra custom and no badwill. Oh and guess what, some do that already (Tesco and Boots). As I said earlier, no need for this. Encourage what the supermarkets do already.

Can someone explain how this will work?

From a customer's point of view it's simple: you want a bag, you pay for it. Here AFAIK the money goes straight to the retailer.

In the one store where I work, rather than selling plastic for profit, since 2011 the store has raised over ten grand for the Welsh Air Ambulance service. They've probably had to take the hit someway, but sod them! I think it works well. It'ds a great idea and supermarkets and customers just need to get over it!

Here in Wales the money (5p) goes to the retailer and the retailer then has to give it, in turn, to a charitable organisation. I do not know the mechanism for this. Thus the retailer does NOT get the money.

But so what if they did? The retailer had to buy the bags in the first place. If retailers now have a lesser demand for disposable carrier bags then they might be able to make a slightly higher profit margin. Hopefully this will aid smaller retailers.

Anyone who has shopped in France is surely familiar with the idea of taking a shopping bag/ basket etc with them. It was the norm in the UK years ago too. I keep a bunch of shopping bags in my car. It is hardly rocket science.

On a final note, I honestly believe that there is far less plastic bag litter around nowadays in Carmarthenshire compared to previously.

[i]You can't have it both ways ! If the money isn't going to the government but to the supermarket, as you claim, it's not a tax. [/i]

What would you call it then?

Govt tells private company to charge for something they use to 'give away' - it's a tax, irrelevant of where it's going.

it's a tax, irrelevant of where it's going.

Of course it isn't. It's not going towards financing government activities.

And btw contrary to your claim, the proposal would not see the money levied going to the retailer :
[i]The proceeds will go to charities involved in clearing up the environmental damage caused by the bags rather than the Government or the retailers.[/i]

It's as much of a tax as the Bedroom Tax ie, it isn't.

But makes/would make much better headlines/poltical posturing to call it such.

But if the charity is indirectly covering for cuts in govt services? (As the New Opportunities fund of the National Lottery)

It's as much of a tax as the Bedroom Tax ie, it isn't.

Not at all. The money saved by the Bedroom Tax goes to the government/LA. There isn't any suggestion at all that the government will make a penny out of the plastic bag levy.

Call it a plastic bag tax if you want, but br is seriously undermining the claim by in the same breath pointing out that the government won't get any of it and that it will all go to the retailer 🙂

If it looks like a duck, and swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

As for the bedroom tax, Frankie Boyle said quite rightly, "It isn't a tax, it's a punishment."

Tax is about raising revenue. The bedroom tax (sic) is nothing of the sort. It is a reduction in expenditure/spending.

So neither are a tax. They may have similar impacts (b r's point possibly) but still not a tax.

Anyway you have to cut poor Cleggie some slack. He's got Uncle Vince planning mischief and it's obviously getting to poor guy with the Conference pressure. There he was this morning going on about how Labout would "wreck the economy" it elected to power and yet insisting that he would still do a deal with them in 2015. He really is a bit muddled, so we can forgive the plastic bag stuff.

I love how you lot are all theorising whether or not it would work. Come to Wales and have a look!

The biggest factor is that they no longer hand them out automatically, you have to ask. This means that having disposable bags is slightly more effort, especially on the self checkout, and we all know people don't like effort. People now walk our with three or four items in their arms instead of the automatic disposable bag you get in England.

If you watch shoppers it's quite remarkable how many more people are using reusable bags now.

If it looks like a duck, and swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

It's probably not a good idea to claim that it has 4 legs.

I have no problem with the plastic bag levy being called the plastic bag tax, I just think that pointing out why it isn't a tax in the same sentence is probably not a good idea and rather counterproductive.

In case you forgotten what was said : [i]"it also annoys me that it's another tax and it doesn't even go to the country, but the supermarkets bottom line."[/i]

If the 5p charge goes through the till we will have to pay tax on that. If its included on a credit card transaction we will get charged for that as well.
Also it will affect our profit ratio which if varies by a miniscule amount on what HMRC reckons we should earn incurs a visit from the tax man. Time consuming at best.

I'm glad the thread title includes the term "clutching at straws" 🙂

Not heard anything negative from anyone who already lives somewhere this is in place, hopefully carrier bag lined roads will be a thing of the past.

Be nice if they could bring in a deposit on bottles and cans too, seems to be the only way to deter litter dropping *~@£%$.

*choose your favorite description.