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This time in a bowling alley, 16 to 22 people feared dead.
Will this be enough to change gun control laws there?
How many mass shootings do they have per year?
Will this be enough to change gun control laws there?
How many mass shootings do they have per year?
No.
1 a day, roughly. (a mass shooting is any shooting where more than 4 people are killed)
Will this be enough to change gun control laws there?
Nope. In a twisted sense of logic, it seems to be a common belief that with so many guns out in the population and ever more mass shootings it is more important than ever that good god fearing members of the population have a right to carry arms.
There will be a call by the NRA to routinely arm bowling alley workers.
Will this be enough to change gun control laws there?
Not when thoughts and prayers are keeping things under control.
The immediate response will be "its too soon to talk about it. Think about the dead".
Then quiet until the next incident.
There will be a call by the NRA to routinely arm
bowling alley workerseveryone.
FTFY.
Firearms sales normally spike after bigger shootings, as all the gun nuts try to get them before any feared bans come into place, that never materialise.
Leave ‘em to it I say. They’ve had numerous opportunities to show some sense, yet here we are.
Thoughts and prayers are bullet proof aren't they?
When I was a teenager, The US seemed a place of awe, mainly fuelled by Hollywood.
I don't even think that the mass shootings, as horrific as they are, are even close to being the worse thing about the place, they are just another example of many many failures. Poverty and racism is grandfathered into their society, the inequality, the greed, the live to work culture, the lack of social and medical care, the mass homelessness.
It really is the most disgusting failed society that I can imagine, that is somehow held up as an ideal.
Then quiet until the next incident.<br /><br /><br />
…which will probably be tomorrow. Indications are that the perp had known mental health issues and had threatened to shoot co-workers
I'm sure I've posted this before
But the numbers are just staggering 477 shot & killed this year to date & that's just one city.
When these events happen in America,my first thoughts are usually :-
1/ I am glad we have better gun control.
2/ and some of the lyrics from 'Do Nothing' by The Specials
I know someone who lives in Lewiston, and I have lots of friends, colleagues and family members across the US. So please don't come out with the 'leave them to it, serves them right' stuff, it's horrible.
Regarding gun control, whilst I support strong gun controls, I don't believe that's actually the problem in the US. The problem is a society that promotes the conditions where people want to go out and shoot a load of people.
Will this be enough to change gun control laws there?
If Sandy Hook (and any other School shooting since) wasn't enough to bring about change nothing will.
Leave ‘em to it I say. They’ve had numerous opportunities to show some sense, yet here we are.
I'm inclined to agree with this - although i'm well aware of the human suffering left in the wake of each mass shooting.
In my opinion nothing will change until todays kids, who've grown up with the fear of being blown to bits whist at school are in Congress and the Senate - so lets discuss again in 50 years.
A little bit of a tangent, but my brother is for all intents and purposes German now (interestingly he doesn't give up his UK passport). Since brexit he has developed a feverish xenophobia for anything English.
He takes great joy in pinging me every time there's a stabbing death in the UK claiming it's unsafe to be in the country. Now, I appreciate England has got a little "stabby" recently but another factor is our media loves reporting on it. The reply when I show stats showing Germany has 3x more instances? And (back on subject) 6x more deaths by shooting? - "tHeY'Re jUsT NuMBeRs"
Only 50 school shootings so far this year in the US. I’d say policy seems to be working as well as expected. Uvalde in Texas (where 19 children and two teachers died) was the 27th school shooting of that year. After Sandy Hook and Uvalde, the fact that little has changed tells you nothing will change.
"leave them to it, serves them right" is horrible but "leave them to it, there's nothing sane people can do about it, especially from the UK" sounds about right.
I heard a really fascinating podcast recently (think it was malcolm gladwell guest appearance on a tim Harford thing). He was arguing that the whole gun freedom thing was based on fictionalised fantasies about the wild west that were actually the exact reverse of the reality. He used as an example some v popular western tv show that was full of goodies killing baddies and specifically one story when a guy gave up his gun (to avoid being a magnet for trouble), he later got killed, whereas in reality the town had initially a sky-high death rate when founded, it then introduced strict gun control, and the death rate plummeted. He was wondering if the supreme court judges were watching this when they were young...
The problem is a society that promotes the conditions where people want to go out and shoot a load of people.
Which doesnt work well if people dont have guns to go and shoot people with.
The lack of firearms control is a fundamental part of the problem. Yes other things can be used but there is a reason why modern armies carry rifles rather than rapiers. They are a lot more effective.
It really is the most disgusting failed society that I can imagine, that is somehow held up as an ideal.
Usually by people who've either never been there, or have only been for a holiday.
Folk though also need to remember that gun 'control' is used as a 'wedge' issue, same with abortion - and the strategy is been used here too, by folk with the same political ideology.
Which doesnt work well if people dont have guns to go and shoot people with.
Sure, but taking everyone's guns away (if that were possible) wouldn't solve the underlying problems of violence.
Like I said, strict gun control is essential, but it's far from the only thing they need.
The problem is a society that promotes the conditions where people want to go out and shoot a load of people.
...alongside easy access to very deadly weaponry. I get where you're coming from and for the overwhelming majority of America, their murder rate is similar to that of European countries, but you can't un-link the issues.
I'm not trying to un-link them, I'm trying to link them. Gun control is not the only issue, that's what I'm saying.
It really is the most disgusting failed society that I can imagine, that is somehow held up as an ideal.
But it isn't though is it? When was the last time you heard a politician claim that we should adopt a practice because "that's how they do it in the United States"?
US society tends to be held up as ideal by right-wing Americans, not many other people. But conservatives throughout the world tend to think that about their own individual societies, so it is hardly unique to the United States.
Ironically much of the terminology considered progressive in the UK has its roots in the US, eg, "political correctness", "woke", and "people of colour".
The United States is very obviously far from perfect but it is also very obviously not the worse country in the world to live in.
Unfortunately for the US due to historical consequences, which didn't have parallels in other similar societies, they have dug themselves hole over the Second Amendment which is proving difficult to climb out of.
Will this be enough to change gun control laws there?
Given who the new speaker is, probably, just not the way you'd hope.
Why would they want to prevent this? They have set their society up so that these events happen frequently and efficiently. What conclusion should you reach other than they want this to happen?
It's just the cost of doing business. And inwardly acceptable to a large chunk of Americans, just pump out some 'thoughts and prayers', but probably don't even bother thinking, or praying about it, as that might make them feel less comfortable.
They are comfortable with a Russian-funded sponsor of domestic terror setting the agenda on the issue.
As above, if Sandy Hook didn't shift the dial, nothing will. Leave them to it. These people prize their guns over children.
“leave them to it, serves them right” is horrible but “leave them to it, there’s nothing sane people can do about it, especially from the UK” sounds about right.
To me this also feels about the right sentiment. There is so much wrong, so much suffering and blighted lives across the globe that fretting about the misfortunes in the most wealthy nation in the world from the UK feels like a poor use of the ****s I've got to give. I'm not say it's an easy fix (and Molgrips is right - the weapon is the end of a chain of wrong), but if any nation had the resources to sort themselves out it's them (collectively). So my ****s are reserved for elsewhere.
Here we go - again.
The (suspected) shooter is a certified gun instructor, army reservist who recently made threats to kill at a National Guard base and is reported as having mental health problems - who was able to wander about with a lethal weapon.
The US political system does not have the will to make fundamental changes to gun control laws as it is completely dysfunctional.
My reaction to US mass shootings has now reached the stage of...another one, ho hum.
No doubt the NRA will attempt to capitalise on this - again.
How long before ted cruz slimes his way onto tv and mouths his empty platitudes about thoughts and prayers?
There'll be another mass shooting along soon.
Molgrips is not right at all. The weapon is the beginning and end of the chain of wrong. Without them you'd have a few stabbings, a few cars driven into groups of people and a lot of people shouting at clouds.
The weapon is the beginning and end of the chain of wrong.
They've about 5 times as many road deaths per capita as the UK.
Guns are involved in a similar number of deaths to road accidents there (though over half of those are suicides).
Knives are involved in about one and a half times as many killings per capita compared with the uk.
There are roughly 6 times as many murders in the USA per capita.
Demographically the victims are overwhelmingly male and poor, with over 50% being african American men.
Guns are not the problem they're a facet of a system which simply doesn't value life enough.
Getting rid of guns might solve most of the mass killings but the problem isn't mass killings, that's just the bit you're least comfortable with and grabs the headlines best because it's not another dirt poor 19 year old black kid shot on his way to school that people don't identify with.
These people prize their guns over children.
But that's overly simplistic to the point of nonsense though isn't it? They're might be some gun nuts who think that and will convince themselves of anything, but the vast majority of Americans are more than aware that their gun issue is out of control, but feel powerless to do anything about it. You can sort of compare it to climate change; we all know that our addiction to fossil fuels is making the very thing that sustains us; unable to sustain us...And yet here we are.
There are roughly 6 times as many murders in the USA per capita.
Yes but...Not all Americans experience murder rates like that. In fact, most Americans live in counties and states that have similar statistics to Europe when it comes to murder, it's just that a few places really skew the stats.
But that’s overly simplistic to the point of nonsense though isn’t it? But that’s overly simplistic to the point of nonsense though isn’t it? They’re might be some gun nuts who think that and will convince themselves of anything, but the vast majority of Americans are more than aware that their gun issue is out of control, but feel powerless to do anything about it.
Not really. If the American people were truly outraged by the gun control situation, they would send an overwhelming majority of gun control advocates to Congress and the Senate. Instead, they continue to put people bought and paid for by the NRA into these positions. Voters in key states simply have other priorities when they arrive at the ballot box. They do not value innocent lives highly enough to override their normal voting allegiances.
It is a simple situation. After Newbury and Dunblane, we enacted swingeing gun control legislation with widespread public support. Change is possible.
But taking everyone’s guns away (if that were possible) wouldn’t solve the underlying problems of violence.
Swap them with cuddly toys and I am fairly sure less people would die.
You have the semblance of a good point in the background but your basic premise about the guns is bobbins I'm afraid.
they would send an overwhelming majority of gun control advocates to Congress and the Senate
They can only pick the card the magician offers. When the gun lobby buys the politicians from both the major parties, the voting deck is stacked against reforming gun control.
Guns are not <em style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; background-color: #eeeeee;">the problem they’re a facet of a system which simply doesn’t value life enough.
LMFTFY
Guns are one of the problems, they're a facet of a system which simply doesn't value life enough.
Change is possible
Of course it is, but as you say, it's not high up on their radar, becasue most Americans experience gun violence or murder rates that are no different from ours here in the UK. Plus the same is still true of us, we all know climate change is going to make our planet un-inhabitable for our grandchildren, why isn't parliament stuffed with the Green party? If Europeans were truly outraged they wouldn't be using dodgy accounting tricks via Belgium to get around the gas sanctions placed on Russia to keep their houses nice and warm on the cheap.
Singling out Americans as uniquely unable to solve their seemingly intractable issues, when its very obviously an entirely normal human reaction to huge societal problems, is weird.
After Newbury
I thought for a moment you were talking about the Battle of Newbury and wondered how old you were. I assume you're talking about the Hungerford Massacre - pedantic but just avoiding my brother pinging me to tell me there's been a killing in my village 🙂
Jacinda has some free time. Vote her in next time.
Yes but…Not all Americans experience murder rates like that. In fact, most Americans live in counties and states that have similar statistics to Europe when it comes to murder, it’s just that a few places really skew the stats.
The worst 1% of counties have 19% of the population and 37% of the murders. The worst 2% of counties contain 28% of the population and 51% of the murders. The worst 5% of counties contain 47% of the population and account for 68% of murders. But even within those counties the murders are very heavily concentrated in small areas
So the areas with most murders are those with the densest populations, who would have guessed? Those areas will be the same as the ones with the highest concentration of poverty and non white demographics.
That's precisely the same here where most murders occur in London (about 1/5th) followed by greater Manchester.
If you discount London, Manchester and Birmingham you discount almost 50% of homicides in the UK and if you picked and chose which bits of London to look at you could doubtless ditch something like half the boroughs without removing a single homicide.
Out of interest can anyone see how much of an impact the bans following Hungerford and Dunblane had - I can find the data in theory on the ons but trying to decipher it on a mobile screen isn't so easy.
It "feels" to me like the bans here were more eye catching than effective in so much as I honestly don't recall gun violence being much of a thing before Dunblane (and I'm not old enough to remember pre 84.)
Great to see its polarising opinion over here so well (assuming its mostly UK posters at present)
Luckily we clamped down on gun ownership after a couple of mass shootings. As our social/health care systems start to fail over here, we'd be close to the wider American problems molgrips was talking about.
Tragic for those affected, but it's up to the silent majority of Americans to find their voice to try and slow, then reverse this problem.
Out of interest can anyone see how much of an impact the bans following Hungerford and Dunblane had – I can find the data in theory on the ons but trying to decipher it on a mobile screen isn’t so easy.
It “feels” to me like the bans here were more eye catching than effective in so much as I honestly don’t recall gun violence being much of a thing before Dunblane (and I’m not old enough to remember pre 84.)
You can't manage "effectiveness" this way. It's like adding flood defences to a house that has not yet been flooded. You can never prove its effectiveness if you're looking at before and after results. Only the after results matter.
but it’s up to the silent majority of Americans to find their voice
American politicians know, along with the rest of the word, what the majority of their fellow Americans think about this issue already it's not a state secret, it won't come as a shocking surprise to any of them. Like most massive societal issues, it's hugely unfair to ask individuals to vote to solve it, because at the end of the day, that's what you're asking. The gun issue in this country was resolved by legislation started by the govt, as it was in Australia, when politicians stood up and did the thing that they're paid to do.
Currently the GOP cant even decide amongst themselves to appoint their own leader for a House that they have the majority of votes in. If you want to see where the gun control issue lies, that's as good a place as any.
Currently the GOP cant even decide amongst themselves to appoint their own leader for a House that they have the majority of votes in
They have. They've appointed a hard right, anti abortion, anti gay rights 2020 election disputer.
It does not bode well for any sort of sensible legislation
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67220358
The solution in US isn't to aim for gun control, that can't happen under the present system. Instead, they need reform of their lobbying system and spend limits on campaigning.
Put elected politicians in charge who are not owned by powerful lobbying groups like the NRA and you can then hope for change
Of course they have 🙄
Rome fiddling while burns, rearrange etc etc...
There's a lot of conflation of two issues here because both involve guns. One is the individual shooting, mostly of poor black men by other poor black men who know or know of each other. The other is the mass shootings, nearly always within different socio economic groupings. Both are equally concerning. Actually, that's probably not true - mass shootings have a newsworthy shock value and often impact communities that otherwise see little gun violence, by gunmen with legally held weapons. But the individual shootings have the higher number of victims. The solutions will be different too.
Sure they are different, but the root issue isn't: The easy access to very deadly weaponry. The statistics don't really care whether you've been shot with a 9mm or a 5.56mm round, our whether the shooter used a handgun or a knock-off AR15, or whether its a dude from the next block who's cousin you killed last week, or that you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when a Proud Boy goes postal. If Americans mostly agree that the public shouldn't have easy access to guns; how many variations of social issues there are, or even what weapon is used isn't the thing that any one needs to concentrate on.
It's just a distraction technique that the Republicans use to complicate a very straight forward problem
Some fabulous crap being spouted on Twitter
https://twitter.com/Itsup2debate/status/1717385111795020046?s=20
The shooter was a former marine, a firearms instructor and was carrying an assault rifle. But apparently it only needed good ol boy Jeff down at the bowling alley to have a handgun stuffed in his jeans to stop it all.
But apparently it only needed good ol boy Jeff down at the bowling alley to have a handgun stuffed in his jeans to stop it all.
It's well known the best way to stop people shooting people is for other people to shoot people.
The only thing a redneck with a gun would have done is made themselves a target.
Bloody idiots
I know it's cold but I'm past caring
Sure they are different, but the root issue isn’t
I disagree. The outcome isn't, the root is. The outcome is death by gunshot wound. The root is why the gun was picked up and fired and that is totally different.
Onion on the mark again https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1850961776
Onion on the mark again
Twice today in fact!
Reality is another mass shooting makes no difference and never will, they long ago made the decision that mass shootings are an acceptable cost and then set about figuring out how to ignore them, the 600th in a year isn't going to make any difference to the 500th or the 400th. Because the right to bear arms is way more important than the right to not get murdered at school.
I am so glad I don't live in the US. I used to think it would be cool to live there but the idea of sending my kids to school and not knowing if they would come home alive has put me right off the place. That and the health care system.
Moved here just over a year ago, to Connecticut. The Road club I joined regularly pass Sandy Hook Memorial on our club runs. I've met a couple who's kid was in the school that day and lost one of his best friends and a woman who counsels parents of survivors. There is a fair amount states can do to restrict access to these type of weapons. CT has tightened it's rules considerably, still not perfect but I've heard people describe each law like a layer of swiss cheese eventually there will be few holes.
Red & Blue states are like different countries and on an increasingly divergent path, Maine may well try to do something about access to these type of weapons although I suspect not enough to restrict access to a firearms instructor. Places like Texas are beyond hope!
@ElVino. Interesting perspective from the right side of the pond.
There's no border control between each state right? So isn't it a case of lowest common denominator - meaning you just go get your automatic rifle from the next state across?
So isn’t it a case of lowest common denominator – meaning you just go get your automatic rifle from the next state across?
A common argument from the gun lobby is that Chicago has a lot of shootings but strong gun laws which therefore shows restrictions dont work.
They skip over the minor detail the neighbouring areas have very loose laws and hence anyone who wants a gun in Chicago just needs to travel half an hour or so to acquire one.
villageidiotdanFree Member
@ElVino. Interesting perspective from the right side of the pond.There’s no border control between each state right? So isn’t it a case of lowest common denominator – meaning you just go get your automatic rifle from the next state across?
In theory that is true, I guess most places you have to show ID to purchase a gun even if they don't do a background check. The tightening of laws has definitely made a difference to gun crime in CT. It also helps that we are surrounded by states with similarly tight gun laws. Saying there is no point tightening them just because state down the road has loose laws is another reason to do nothing.
Saying there is no point tightening them just because state down the road has loose laws is another reason to do nothing.
To be clear that wasnt my suggestion. More than it should be federal law so some nutcases in one state cant screw over the rest of the USA and various other countries for that matter. Mexico definitely has a problem with guns being brought legally in the US and then smuggled there from the US and think some other countries in the area do as well.
The only thing a redneck with a gun would have done is …
… probably killed or wounded a bunch of other innocent people because he’s incapable of actually hitting a barn door if it was five metres in front of him. In any case, it looks like the perp is wearing proper tactical gear like a hard-plate Kevlar vest, so bringing him down would likely only be possible with a head shot or putting a round through each knee, and I think we can all agree that the possibility of that happening with someone who barely knows how to use a handgun without shooting themselves in the foot/dick/ass are somewhere between fat and slim.
America doesn't need gun control. Ammo control, that's what it needs. Tax the shit of out them, see how many mass shootings there are when it's forty bucks a bullet.
The only thing a redneck with a gun would have done is …
… probably killed or wounded a bunch of other innocent people because he’s incapable of actually hitting a barn door if it was five metres in front of him.
Yeah. I read a statistic a while back, the accuracy of trained armed responders is something depressing like about 18%. Your average gun nut ain't going to be much use other than drawing fire.
I believe Americans see guns as a necessary evil. There are just far too many about and for a very long time meaning even if they banned them tomorrow, they would keep popping up.
Because criminals and gang members have them, then in order to feel safe, which is a fallacy in the truest sense of the word, the average US citizen truly believes they need them too.
Regarding gun control, whilst I support strong gun controls, I don’t believe that’s actually the problem in the US. The problem is a society that promotes the conditions where people want to go out and shoot a load of people.
Disagree. Guns make it easy for a relatively unskilled, cowardly, misguided individual to do whatever they want. Add some skill/training and we see what happens quite regularly.
Its very hard (near impossible?) for a single person to kill 31 people and kill 18, unless you have a gun, or a crowd in front of your vehicle.
You can't pick off a target whilst hiding across the street without a gun, you've got to grapple/restrain them to get a decent stab and risk being injured yourself.
You can't shoot an intruder running off your property with a knife. (not self defense if they are already running off)
You can't reach for your gun when engaged in a good old bit of light hearted road rage, you've gotta run them off the road instead.
If we had similar gun ownership (1/3rd of adults) I have no doubt we would have a huge increase in gun deaths. We share many of the social challenges with the USA (homelessness, poverty, PTSD, drug crime etc)
Guns make it easy for a relatively unskilled, cowardly, misguided individual to do whatever they want.
I think you missed the point they were trying to make. Invest - at a national/societal level - in education, training, mental health etc etc and you reduce the pool of potential mass shooters.
Talk to most Police and social workers in the UK and they will tell you that if you invest in early years family support, addiction support, education, health and social care, good social housing, training for kids who aren't academic, you will ultimately save on unemployment and other benefits, Police and prison bills, etc etc. It's a generational payback, which is why no government fixated on a 5 year election cycle will do it.
Early intervention alongside proper gun controls would be doubly effective IMHO. I don't think spooky necessarily missed the point, both approaches should be taken.
If we had similar gun ownership (1/3rd of adults) I have no doubt we would have a huge increase in gun deaths. We share many of the social challenges with the USA (homelessness, poverty, PTSD, drug crime etc)
Absolutely this^^
Mexico definitely has a problem with guns being brought legally in the US and then smuggled there from the US and think some other countries in the area do as well.
Mexico also has a problem with guns being bought by narco-terrorists and flooding the country from the rest of South America.
The hardware on show from recent battles has been mind boggling.