[Closed] Yes I'm a dickhead; but, police and legal types advice por favor

This is basically a bump

I think that sounds like Police for "We can't be bothered or don't have the time." In fairness to the police the criminal may well not be a repeat offender or a danger to society.

On the other hand if no one knows the details of the card then how does Tesco no whose account to take the money out of?

Exact same thing happened to me. Long story short even though it was all caught on CCTV the copper did not pursue further and got annoyed when I kept referring to it as an 'easy nick'.

[quote=ampthill ]This is basically a bump
I think that sounds like Police for "We can't be bothered or don't have the time." In fairness to the police the criminal may well not be a repeat offender or a danger to society.
On the other hand if no one knows the details of the card then how does Tesco no whose account to take the money out of?
Tesco doesn't take the money out of anyones account. The bank transfers it from the customers account to Tescos.

I did similar after requesting £50 cashback at an Asda self checkout till and then walking away without the cash. Luckily someone (probably the checkout supervisor) had picked up the dosh and filed it away. I was able to get it back after showing the original receipt.

Hope you get your money back but I doubt anyone will give it much time.

To get card holder details may require a financial search warrant, which can take big hoops to jump through and may not be granted due to the low amount, whether enquiry has been done by the cctv and the severity of the crime.

If you watch the two receipts come out of a card machine whenever you pay, your copy has * * **** 1234 on it, but the shop's copy has 1234 1234 1234 1234 on it.

Tesco's system will have [s]a record[/s] known the full card number at some point, but how or if it stores it I don't know. What I do know, from experience, is that staff in the local branch are unlikely to be able to get the full card number with the level of access they have to the system. So it's entirely plausible that the officer has been back to Tesco and they haven't been able to get that information.

That said, I bet if the woman had walked out and killed someone her details would be found somehow. This might require a warrant and a trip to Tesco head office though.

It is probably possible, but whether the time and beaurocracy required is proportionate is a matter of opinion.

The problem in these matters is all about who could be arsed. Firstly tesco can trace the full number but without the transaction number (do you still have your receipt? It should be the next sequential number) it will require lots of time and they aren't out of pocket. Then a Data Protection Act form needs to be signed off and sent to the respective bank, who generally if they aren't out of pocket take an eternity to process the request. If the account holder is identified then hopefully a polite word but after all that investigation, about 3-4 months, paperwork, exhibits, cctv, witness statements and you start to understand why the police might roll their eyes at the suggestion of an easy Nick, especially if the account holder is wise to the law and refuses to play nice. Chances of positive ID and a lacklustre CPS means you've lost your £50. Soz.

... didn't know you could get cash back from self-service tills..

though sounds like it's not always a good idea!!

[quote=kcal ]... didn't know you could get cash back from self-service tills..
though sounds like it's not always a good idea!!
It is when it's free!

Theft by finding is difficult. You/police have to prove there is no intent to find owner, return to owner or place it somewhere (police station etc) where the owner could get it.

The problem in these matters is all about who could be arsed. Firstly tesco can trace the full number but without the transaction number (do you still have your receipt? It should be the next sequential number) it will require lots of time and they aren't out of pocket. Then a Data Protection Act form needs to be signed off and sent to the respective bank, who generally if they aren't out of pocket take an eternity to process the request. If the account holder is identified then hopefully a polite word but after all that investigation, about 3-4 months, paperwork, exhibits, cctv, witness statements and you start to understand why the police might roll their eyes at the suggestion of an easy Nick, especially if the account holder is wise to the law and refuses to play nice. Chances of positive ID and a lacklustre CPS means you've lost your £50. Soz.

So for £50 the investigation could cost £1000s.

Assuming somebody recognised her and you collared her, she would just claim she picked it up for safe keeping and was planning to hand it in then forgot.

Stake out the place?

When the offender from the CCTV footage comes back, 'nick em'.

May take a few man hours though....

[quote=kcal ]... didn't know you could get cash back from self-service tills..

Asda ones only.

The car park cctv might well show her getting into her car?

Shouldn't be too difficult - she probably parked in a disabled space 🙂

Morrisons and Co-op too, for starters.

Thanks for the replies, all.

Transaction numbers for mine and the thiefs have been found, and hopefully stored, by the civvy investigator. The woman's image has been positively linked to the taking of the money, and I'm not bothered about a conviction as such, I'd just like my £50 back and an apology would be nice but if she tried to lie about it then I'd happily assist in her prosecution. The dishonest toerag should have a lesson in good manners by having a Bobby knocking on their door, enquiring about the money that they have demonstrably taken and not returned, putting the fear of a prosecution in her. If I'd have found £50 I would have handed it in, and so should she.

I'm aware that it's not crime of the century so not a high priority, but as all it seems to need is a data protection form filling in with a transaction number and a reason and sending to the shops HQ, it doesn't seem to be too onerous. In fairness to the civvy investigator, she's kept in touch, obtained the CCTV and obtained the transaction details for mine and the thiefs shopping. It seems to me that the leg work is done already, and she genuinely doesn't know how to take the next step. She's done all the contacting me about this; I was expecting the brush off from the start, TBH.

Visit shop same time next week, could be a routine?

I haven't seen the footage so don't know what she looks like, unfortunately. (Maybe fortunately; vigilante justice is frowned on in our 'civilised' country' 😆

I suppose cutting holes in a newspaper and standing next to the chocolate bars would look a bit suspect 🙂

It is when it's [s]free![/s] apparently the perfect crime!

Does CCTV footage show the cash left in the machine before woman takes it? If not, it's your word against hers. Can imagine scenario: "Yes officer, I withdrew £500 but silly me, forgot to take it!"

If it was me I'd be sending my DPA form with the transaction number to Tesco head office then. If they can provide the card number it's easy enough to ID the cardholder, but the bank will want a warrant.

Actually, I don't agree that you're [s]a dickhead[/s] an idiot. There's a design fault in the process, and the cashback facility should be withdrawn until it's sorted.

They're very quick to tell us "Unexpected item in the bagging area" but not "Don't forget your cash".

Last month, there was a similar post on our local FB group, so it was fresh in my mind when I watched the customer in front do exactly the same thing 😯

After calling her back to pick up the cash, I went to talk to the store manager (Asda) . . . who admitted he'd lost £50 in the same way!

Does CCTV footage show the cash left in the machine before woman takes it?

People are creatures of habit , go back to the supermarket around the same time next week - don't forget your bombers .

Actually, I don't agree that you're a dickhead an idiot.

Wish you were behind me that day, Esme x

Thanks TGA. I'll politely suggest that as a next step to the civvy. Feels she may be just out of her depth a little.

Police can get the details if they want too from the woman's last 4 digits on the card receipt via the corresponding bank / financial institution by way of a production order.

Take picture of cctv video of the woman and set a few posters up with her face on it and shame her into giving cash back. Just put that you don't want to prosecute if the cash is returned

What a shame.

Years ago I was waiting behind a guy at a cash machine and when it was my turn there was a massive wad of cash sitting in the machine - it must have been £250 or £300! Thankfully, the guy hadn't gone far, so I was able to call him back. He said the machine had been slow, and he thought it hadn't got any money to give him!

I never use self-service in the shops, but I know someone who left his card in the machine for about three days on the trot! They were getting to know him at the customer service desk! I think they told him that they get loads of cards left behind every day, so this sort of thing is easily done. It's just a pity that the woman behind you wasn't honest.

Slight hijack but these self serve machines can be a real profit maker.

In Sainsburys, say for example you get one of the lunch meal deals for £3, the till automatically puts the items thorough at full price before discount.

Think it came to £4.25 the other day for me. You then have press the " go back " button which then takes the discount off. This is not clear on the screen so it's easy not to notice.

Fair enough, if you are only going in for a meal deal you know it's £3 but if you get other items, it's easy not to notice.

I'm failing to see the "crime" in the op.

I completely get where you are coming from Seosamh77. However, if you replace the word 'crime' for 'dishonesty' then (hopefully) you can see the issue. You see, 'finders keepers' doesn't have much legal precedent when it comes to easily returnable cash. I'd just like the £50 back. I'd rather just knock on the woman's door myself and ask her, but all these pesky data protection laws mean I have to ask the police to uphold the law for me.

You won't get a production order from a bank for theft by finding of £50. You're more likely to get their details from a loyalty card or the car reg outside. Peoples expectations about use of public resources seems slightly out of whack with reality.

In Sainsburys, say for example you get one of the lunch meal deals for £3, the till automatically puts the items thorough at full price before discount.
Think it came to £4.25 the other day for me. You then have press the " go back " button which then takes the discount off. This is not clear on the screen so it's easy not to notice.

so far [b]you[/b] have cost[b] us[/b] the the tax payer more than £50 in resourses for your mistake !

Suck it up and stop moaning and the let the police concentrate on something useful....

End of thread !

so far you have cost us the the tax payer more than £50 in resourses (sic) for your mistake !

to be fair the cost is more than you think id be guessing near to a thousand so far - police looking at CCTV/ cars they got to the supermarket in/person you spoke to on the phone/police investigator/ admin staff/ office space etc and I've probably missed lots of other beuracratic stuff off the list...

and no its not okay to be dishonest even though there are many big organisations that are - Starbucks etc and we fuel them by drinking their products.

Don't be put off by the police.

From memory and an out of date knowledge of the Court process:-

You always remain free to pursue a civil action against the offender, even if the police appear unwilling - and if you have reason to believe either the store, the bank, or the police have the offenders details stored somewhere, can compel them ultimately to provide them for the purposes of Court Proceedings. IE you are going to issue small claims court proceedings and require an address of the defendant for service. - It doesn't need to be your problem how "problematic" it is to get them, only that if they refuse, you may make an application to the Court, which they are duty bound to obey unless they have a suitable reason for not doing so and persuade a judge to that effect.

If they don't defend it, or provide the details, you can then enforce the judgement of the application against them.

I may be wrong on all this though -

to be fair the cost is more than you think id be guessing near to a thousand so far

PCI data security standard - Tesco don't ever get access to the full card number. I wouldn't want them to either, they are some of the last people I would trust with my bank numbers.

So they claim Data Protection but hand over the CCTV footage ? Hypocrites ! The Police can request it under section 29, but Tesco are under no obligation to disclose.

Do you have a copy ? Get a still and make a Have You Seen This Woman Poster and put it up outside with your number and a £50 reward leading to finding her. Somebody will know who she is....

P.S - and the cost of the investigation ? Excuse me, but I believe the police forces are funded to to ahem, investigate crime ? I know this is petty and unlikely to lead to a conviction, but that doesn't mean we all give up entirely.

Hi Hels, thanks for the posts. I haven't got a copy; because 'data protection'. Otherwise I'd be all over the wanted poster idea, that would be ace! Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that the police were about to give up, I'm really happy with their response, it's been friendly, they have taken the issue seriously and dealt with it in a commensurate way so far. The civvy investigator seems to be approaching a dead end now though, which is frustrating (for her as well as me) considering it's something for which digital records obviously exist.

so far you have cost us the the tax payer more than £50 in resourses (sic) for your mistake !

Hold on, why are [s]we[/s]you blaming the victim here. I'll accept costs are incurred, but these are because someone took something which did not belong to them. If you want to blame someone for costs, it should be the thief.

Catch on!

Equally, Im glad supermarkets don't routinely share bank bank and transaction details with the police and similar. That's a bit too far into lack of privacy for me.

Imagine you left your bike outside tesco, and she jumped on and peddled off.....not a crime?

Of course it would be, as is this.

Opportunistic thievery is still thievery...

[img] [/img]

You don't just steal someone else's money unless you're scum.

So if you found a £50 note on the pavement would you hand it in ?

No nor did the lady from the supermarket !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_by_finding

So if you found a £50 note on the pavement would you hand it in?

Bit of a grey area when it comes to a premeditated crime, perhaps dishonest on the part of the woman and she really should have handed it in. She'll be the type to go radio rental if it happened to her

You made a mistake, we've all done it. Move on and chalk it up to a bad day

for the record id never take money from a supermarket thingy- has bad karma written all over it !

I have a £10 note in my Rain coat that I found in March on the street - when I see someone/cause that needs it then I shall give it to them, so far I haven't found that cause- same if I found a £50- KARMA !

Bit of a grey area when it comes to a premeditated crime, perhaps dishonest on the part of the woman and she really should have handed it in.

As for victim blaming, well I'd usually be very vocally against such a thing, but I was a blithering idiot for leaving £50 alone in Asda, wasn't I? Lol.

Good grief.

What's pre meditation got to do with it? It is theft by finding, there were reasonable steps she could taken (like hand it to the nearest shop assistant). The offence is made out.

Easiest route for investigator is DPA request for loyalty card info if used. They use this to identify self scan shoplifters who 'forget' to scan expensive items. To get a production order from Court they need to show theyve exhausted other reasonable lines of enquiry (such as the CCTV) as the court ordering a bank to release info is a serious intrusive step.

No loyalty card scheme at Asda. Civvy investigator will be circulating image of offender to local policing teams. Don't think there's much else she can do. Bummer.

Just tell the cops that rather than spend £1000s on an investigation, they may as well just give you £50 as it's cheaper 😀

unfitgeezer - Member
So if you found a £50 note on the pavement would you hand it in ?

Yes I would and yes I have.

1) Diamond ring,
2) Wallets and cash,
3) iPhone,
4) Dumped bikes,
5) Numerous keys.

Only a scumbag would steal but that's my projection of my own positive values (not everyone shares these, fair enough).

You carry on keeping what you find but don't think everyone is tea-leaf like you either.

Every Police station has a lost property department.

I still have the letter thanking me for handing their wedding ring in. The £10 cheque reward I found attached to the letter bounced lol.

Frankenstein - Member
unfitgeezer - Member
So if you found a £50 note on the pavement would you hand it in ?
Yes I would and yes I have.

1) Diamond ring,
2) Wallets and cash,
3) iPhone,
4) Dumped bikes,
5) Numerous keys.

Only a scumbag would steal but that's my projection of my own positive values (not everyone shares these, fair enough).

You carry on keeping what you find but don't think everyone is tea-leaf like you either.

Every Police station has a lost property department.

I still have the letter thanking me for handing their wedding ring in. The £10 cheque reward I found attached to the letter bounced lol.

quite obviously you didn't read my last reply !

extremely rude calling me a thief which I am not ! Learn to fling read first mate !

extremely rude calling me a thief which I am not !

So if you found a £50 note on the pavement would you hand it in ?
No...

It was a rhetorical question not aimed at anyone in particular.

anyway I'm sure Frankenstein is a big boy or girl and can stick up for themselves !

I'm outta here like any usual STW post certain people don't read all the posts and wade in shouting their gobs off.

Have a pleasant eve

I walked up to a cash point a good few years ago
The screen read " Do you require another service?"
I could have pressed 'Yes' , then 'cash', then '£200'
Instead I pressed 'No' and took the ejected card into the bank and explained to the teller what had happened.
I am going to heaven arent I?

So if you found a £50 note on the pavement would you hand it in ?

And it appears you would too, so you say, this makes it a very strange rhetorical device, especially as you answer it 'no' for someone imaginary person. Unless of course the response were not as you expected

What was that about