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Not blaming the teachers A-A - it’s the goldfish bowl they are put in.
Do you honestly believe that Monster, the X-Games organizers or their target audience even care about inclusivity
Clearly not, which is the point isn't it?
Not blaming the teachers A-A
You might as well, lazy wastrels with nothing to do all summer than argue on the interweb!
…and then they want two bloody inset days after a summer lounging around to ‘prepare’ for the new term!!! 🤣🤣
And they knock off at three!
i’m outraged that you are asking a forum member if his or her daughters are “fit” and if he or she will share pictures!
or do i have the wrong end of the stick?
It's cool, I got his point and know his style well enough to know that was the last thing he was implying.
@cougar I realise my reply to that reads back a bit shitty, apologies if that's the way I came across, it was a bit of a cut and paste job on the phone and kinda lost track of tone throughout. I get your point but I'll counter it with this: why is one just a bunch of girls in sports clothing and the other girls in skimpy clothing? The coverage and fit are the same, the goal may be different but if someone chooses to objectify a woman because of what she's wearing then surely that's the observers problem rather than the woman? I get that there's an added element of intent but then we're not much of a step from there to "she provoked it by dressing like that". Rather than censoring what women wear maybe we should be teaching folk about consent and restraint.
And they knock off at three!
3.10 for me, I'm over worked!
Relapsed mandalorian
The leerers of course but you knew that
I haven't seen anyone speaking for women. Ive seen a few men who understand sexual politics in the 21st century attempting to explain it to men stuck in the 70s
Its really pathetic that in 2022 there are so many men who don't get it. Disheartening even.
Tbh it just seems cringey as fk
I haven’t seen anyone speaking for women. Ive seen a few men who understand sexual politics in the 21st century attempting to explain it to men stuck in the 70s
No, what they've been doing is explain their interpretation of 21st century sexual politics.
The Brand manager of that company is a woman. The brand managers who manage many other areas of overly sexualised influencer areas are also women.
So tell me again exactly what dog in this fight do men have? I see you all bravely criticising those who like this 90's throwback, but I don't see you being brave enough to go after them women who are running this rather lucrative racket or the women who chose it as an industry, source of income, or simply fun.
I guess that's the thing with luxury beliefs, they don't have to be meaningful, just sound it.
Tbh it just seems cringey as fk
It's very 90's but then so is the drink and that event. It hasn't really changed it's format or outlook since it blew up. Sadly the money in some of those sports means some athletes do a deal with the devil to get to the invite events to increase exposure.
If Red Bull went that way with a mutli-sport event I reckon it could prove a worthy competitor.
It’s very 90’s but then so is the drink
<pedant mode>Monster Energy was created in 2002</pedant mode>
It’s very 90’s
Nowt wrong with that. I think in many ways we've been going backwards since then.
Monster Energy was created in 2002
Fair point, but you get my drift, chicks in lycra mincing about.
Nowt wrong with that. I think in many ways we’ve been going backwards since then.
Not in regards to actual sport we're not. Seem to be getting shitter.
Rather than censoring what women wear maybe we should be teaching folk about consent and restraint.
Good to see this appear in the thread.
I'll add that people need to understand the difference between social and sexual seduction. We like to please socially - social seduction, and that can include the way we dress. Dressing up for a night out whether male or female doesn't necessarilly indicate you're looking for sex.
Relapsed mandelorin
I'd invoke hattersley's rule if i were you. "When in a hole stop digging"
If you would like to learn and understand i can recommend you a reading list
Relapsed mandelorin
I’d invoke hattersley’s rule if i were you. “When in a hole stop digging”If you would like to learn and understand i can recommend you a reading list
Ah the standard response of the internet activist. I've been pretty clear about the concept
But as pointed out it's not as simple as you and your ilk like to make out. But you know, you keep being your usual condescending self, I don't need a reading list to learn and understand, I fully understand the complexity of this issue and the impact that it can have, but it runs deeper than your rather myopic activism leads you to believe.
Tbh it just seems cringey as fk
Even the name is lame.
Okay plenty of views so let's clarify.
Do you object to pit girls because:
1. They wear sexy clothing, hence being portrayed or seen as sex object degrading the role of women?
2. They work in the role of attracting men which is considered as "selling" themselves?
3. They work in the best way they can with their assets?
4. They work?
Which one of the above answer or all or any of the combination?
It’s cool, I got his point and know his style well enough to know that was the last thing he was implying.
I have a style? Cool, had to happen eventually. 😁
@cougar I realise my reply to that reads back a bit shitty, apologies if that’s the way I came across,
And by turns also, I didn't think you were being shitty at all. No apology required. Group hug.
why is one just a bunch of girls in sports clothing and the other girls in skimpy clothing? The coverage and fit are the same, the goal may be different
You've perhaps just answered your own question.
Do you object to pit girls because:
1...
2...
3...
4...
No. Keep trying.
So tell me again exactly what dog in this fight do men have?
What dog in this fight do you have?
No. Keep trying.
Exactly what you are objecting if none of the 4 above answers?
Exactly what you are objecting if none of the 4 above answers?
That men create a demand for women that are
seen and not heard in all aspects of life and the knock on effect that has on the rest of society.
Exactly what you are objecting if none of the 4 above answers?
Read the thread. Several people have explained it multiple times.
That men create a demand for women that are
seen and not heard in all aspects of life and the knock on effect that has on the rest of society.
Are you saying the men created the demand for men predominantly?
So what are the men attracted to exactly?
Read the thread. Several people have explained it multiple times.
Others have their views but what's yours exactly?
Read the thread. I have explained it multiple times.
fully understand the complexity of this issue and the impact that it can have, but it runs deeper than your rather myopic activism leads you to
Clearly you do not otherwise you would t keep posting sexist nonsense.
Just keep digging that hole. You have mafe it perfectly clear your ignorance and sexism
I know, why don’t we keep the pretty girls so as not to ruin it for everyone. But satisfy the wokery by changing their name to ‘pit persons’ and have them cover up in a full length shroud-type garment. I bet those girls hate being the centre of attention, and would be liberated from sexist men finding them desirable.
That some men create a demand for women that are
seen and not heard in all aspects of life and the knock on effect that has on the rest of society.
Quite clearly, some men are different to others. Same with women, funnily enough. Quite clearly, some people are stuck in the 60s/70s/80s whatever and are happy to be so...
So just live and let live - watch a different event and support their sponsors with your £££. X-Games/Monster will get the message eventually...
It’s cool
sorry, i was being silly
Do you object to pit girls because:
jesus. i just dipped back in and saw this. are you on a wind up? A-A doesn’t spell it out, or not in the posts that i’ve read, so i will try in an attempt to get the other side of the argument over to you.
what it is about is displaying women as sex objects/hangers on/such perfectly presented examples of the “sexy” human that it deters people (in this case girls/young women) from wanting to enter the world of extreme sports because the only women that they see involved are there to look pretty/sexually appealing while holding up a sign. if a girl (in this situation) thinks, “bmx looks fun,” but the only other females that she expects to see or thinks are into bmx based what shes seen on tv aren’t like her and they don’t actually ride the bikes and are, possibly, like the gang of girls at her school that are bullies. that will deter her from getting involved.
equally, any young men/boys watching x games will see that the women involved in extreme sports are sexy and representing themselves as being sexually available or there to be admired for their bodies and to not participate. this can or will result in a situation where a young female going to a bmx track alone for the first time will encounter that attitude from the young males. that attitude was nurtured by them only seeing women in a bmx setting as being there to look sexy and nothing more. this will likely lead to the girl having a shit time as a result of abuse.
i hope that makes sense. it’s all to do with the people who control a situation (x games/extreme sports in this case) reinforcing gender roles that deter one gender from becoming involved and nothing to do with the actual pit girls.
Doubly so when that’s what I was doing too. Heh.
i like to think that i was creating art.
This thread feels like one of those US police sting operations where they round-up a load of people with outstanding warrants by telling them to come down to a particular location at a particular time because they've won a car or something.
If you don't see the problem with objectifying women in this way - then there really is no hope for you.
Do you lament the loss of page 3?
Nowt wrong with that. I think in many ways we’ve been going backwards since then.
I think we have definitely gone backwards since the 90's. I felt it was progressing well and by now should have be much better from equality/diversity/inclusivity etc,. point of view but it feels worse.
Internet, more divisive politics, culture war all to blame and hard to see how to get everything going in right direction again really.
A-A doesn’t spell it out, or not in the posts that i’ve read
No I haven't but as I said earlier, it's been written out far more eloquently than I would manage several times..you've done it again...it won't help, they can't grasp it
Are the women that become Pit girls or Cheerleaders exploited, or are they actively engaged in what they do? I recently read an article written about a model who has spent a good proportion of her career (and made money doing it) showing everyone her tits; complaining that all people think about her of her tits...Whilst we must condemn obvious assaults or victimisation or the overt exploitation of (especially)young girls under the age of 18. There can be surely no women who do this for a living (or even for fun) under any illusion about what it is they're doing.
Does this sound like victim blaming? I'm not saying they deserve the awful sexism that are perpetrated against them, but if prancing about in a tight crop top is so empowering, how come you don't see boys doing it, and how come still the most popular operation is breast enhancement?
For sure we could probably do without it, but let's face it, these girls aren't exactly standing with the sisterhood. Is it too obvious to say, if you don't want people staring at your tits or your arse, don't chose a career in a field where the job description is "show everyone your tits and or arse"
Do you lament the loss of page 3?
In a way, yes. I miss the days when page 3 could exist and people didn’t make such a massive deal over it. Not that I’d buy or read those papers. Maybe The Sport occasionally for the lols.
Tbh, I had no idea it had been banned.
Tbh2, now that I think on the matter, I had no idea those newspapers still existed. You used to see the odd one wedged behind the dashboard of a builder’s van. The Star, The Sun etc… I’m only dimly aware that one can still buy newspapers. I bought a copy of The FT a couple of years back. Seemed so odd folding if all out. Took about a week to read
think we have definitely gone backwards since the 90’s. I felt it was progressing well and by now should have be much better from equality/diversity/inclusivity etc,. point of view but it feels worse.
Honestly I dont think attitudes have regressed, I believe what happened is people, myself included, assumed that collectively we moved on, when in practise a rift widened. Thats rift that has consequences of its own, particularly when one side or the other gets all high and mighty about it.
Theres no shortage of people who's attitudes never moved much at all and dont give a flying **** about pronouns, skimpy outfits and which toilet someone uses as its all "a load of woke bollocks".
If Red Bull went that way with a mutli-sport event I reckon it could prove a worthy competitor.
RB are no different. I have worked at some rb sponsored events and they also have pit girls everywhere giving out free samples and promoting their products. They also have athlete spec cans which are just water so their athletes can fulfill their obligations without actually having to drink the stuff.
RB are no different. I have worked at some rb sponsored events and they also have pit girls everywhere giving out free samples and promoting their products. They also have athlete spec cans which are just water so their athletes can fulfill their obligations without actually having to drink the stuff.
Really? Interesting. What events where they out of curiosity, I and a feeling the same with the cans.
Have a Google of redbull girls if you think their brand is any different.
Theres no shortage of people who’s attitudes never moved much at all and dont give a flying **** about pronouns, skimpy outfits and which toilet someone uses as its all “a load of woke bollocks”.
And some of those people are women, and some of those women are the people who make a living via it.
For me some of the lines are easily drawn. No one needs to be assaulted - sexually or otherwise for doing their job. That's easy, likewise you can't complain that people objectify you if make a living exploiting your own genetic advantage. Also pretty straightforward.
Can you be criticized for making life harder for women who don't want to be exploited or assaulted, and feel that the Pit Girls exist makes that more likely? Yes, and you can criticize both the men and women who continue to exploit their own good looks and the easy stimulation of half the population to the determent of everyone.
Again, its probably better if it didn't happen.
Thought it might be worth bigging up the mini documentary posted by PrinceJohn earlier in this thread as it's excellent. The impact for me was only loosely related to the topic of the thread, but it's an awesome video about an amazing person. Link to youtube version (as Vimeo made me sign up to watch it): Learning to drown
Also: Points very well put by anagallis_arvensis, Cougar, LAT, johnx2, tomhoward and tjagain. In the face of people getting worked up by "wokery" and trying to derail the original point by making it about employment prospects for models it's really good to read what you have written!
I believe what happened is people, myself included, assumed that collectively we moved on, when in practice a rift widened. That's rift that has consequences of its own, particularly when one side or the other gets all high and mighty about it.
Theres no shortage of people who’s attitudes never moved much at all and dont give a flying **** about pronouns, skimpy outfits and which toilet someone uses as its all “a load of woke bollocks”.
Yeah - I kind of agree with this. I thought we had covered this ground, attitudes had changed and we'd all moved on. It seems like there is a bunch of people who haven't, and will happily move us backwards. In the US this is right on the surface, literally trying to reverse the progress of the last decades.
I think a lot of people are just confused - particularly with the (fairly recent) dialogue around gender. I think that's what's driving a lot of the "anti-woke" rhetoric - it's genuinely complicated for people to understand, and far easier for many of them to write it off as "nonsense" than to actually engage with it. Doesn't help that the right are actively winding there people up, telling them to feel angry about this stuff.
However, this kind of thing (pit girls) is not complex. I think when many people are seeming to be "high and mighty", they just can't believe what they are hearing in 2022.
If somebody doesn't understand why having young women parading around in their pants at a sporting event (particularly one marketed towards young people) is problematic, then probably no amount of explanation is going to help them.
How I wish for a "+1" button...
Tbh, I had no idea it had been banned.
Far as I'm aware it hasn't. They just stopped doing it.
If somebody doesn’t understand why having young women parading around in their pants at a sporting event (particularly one marketed towards young people) is problematic, then probably no amount of explanation is going to help them
You've seen instagram, ticktok, heck even a beach in the recent hot weather. The only people that seem to be getting offended by "pit girls" are woke snowflakes trying to force their opinions onto others. You should see some of the outfits girls wear to school on a come as you please day heck you should have seen some of the outfits the PE PGDE students wore. Your blood would be boiling at that. The adults that choose to do pit girls or promo girls love what they do and they don't take shit from anyone.
What business is it of yours to tell other people what they can and cannot do (legal stuff). The only thing offensive is the people moaning about pit girls.
Poah wins in the "missing the point completely" awards
What business is it of yours to tell other people what they can and cannot do
The second hand smoke argument; Your actions cause harm to others indirectly
I think the point a few on the thread are making is that it sets a bad example to young girls watching and that in their pompous opinion, girls should want to be sportspersons above all else rather than beastly pit persons.
don’t chose a career
I am struggling to see how some people don't understand that people can be exploited even after willingly choosing a career in something that is based on their physical appearance.
Two articles I've read recently:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/25/kate-moss-desert-island-discs-bbc-model
The whole meetoo movement was because powerful (mainly) men took advantage of (mainly) women who were trying to forge careers in acting.
Saying 'if you get exploited, that's on you, surely you knew what was coming when you took on these roles' is victim blaming.
Poah wins in the “missing the point completely” awards
Quite.
It's almost like some posters haven't read the thread at all and have just skipped to the end in order to express their outrage, isn't it. Can't say as I'm totally surprised.
I'll just leave this here
If somebody doesn’t understand why having young women parading around in their pants at a sporting event (particularly one marketed towards young people) is problematic, then probably no amount of explanation is going to help them.
I think the point a few on the thread are making is that it sets a bad example to young girls watching and that in their pompous opinion, girls should want to be sportspersons above all else rather than beastly pit persons.
I think a point a few on the thread are making and some readers are missing is that it sets a bad example to young boys watching.
I am struggling to see how some people don’t understand that people can be exploited even after willingly choosing a career in something that is based on their physical appearance.
To reiterate, I don't think any one should be a victim of assault or exploitation of any stripe regardless of their career choices. BUT, if you accept a job as an adult woman that requires you to be either naked or in revealing clothing, you cannot then complain that people objectify you...That's not victim blaming, that's the consequences of your choices.
I’ll just leave this here
You can leave it where you like, but will it change anyones mind?
Its basically an insult after all. And surely after that last 8 years (Im counting the IndyScot ref) we should acknowledge that deriding those that you believe to be wrong doesn't equal a change of heart.
Ive no idea how to change those minds btw. Answers i do not have.
I think the point a few on the thread are making and some readers are (probably wilfully) missing is that it sets a bad example to young boys watching.
Huh, fair enough. I'd honestly not even considered that. So it's sexist because... umm, pit boys are under-represented? Is that it? Or because it will turn them into rapists? Or because it gives them the impression that heterosexuality is more valid than homosexuality because there isn't an equal amount of Chris Pontious 'Party Boy Pit Boys'?
Nickc.... it's not about the individual, this is about societies attitude towards women.
Should a scantily clad woman be arbitrarily placed next-to/on something you are trying to sell to people/men? Are they ornaments? Do we want people (young men in particular) to think of women like that?
but will it change anyones mind?
Probably not, no. You can't educate cheese. However, raising awareness isn't a bad thing. Cf:
I’d honestly not even considered that.
So that's a step in the right direction, it's being considered. Now we just need to work on the reductio ad absurdum conclusion.
[I]unfortunately[/I] there's no nice way to tiptoe around this issue. The problem is, some people are thick. Often, these are the people who argue hardest against it - and the problem is, they're too thick to [I]know[/I] they're thick. Sorry, I know no-one wants to be told that. 😃Its basically an insult after all.
Most people these days, I'd argue, wouldn't have a problem describing a racist as a "neanderthal" or "thick as pig shit". These people are fair game for insults. Sexism is no different, except it's even [I]more[/I] ingrained in our (global) society, such that a lot of people can't even acknowledge that a problem exists, because they can't examine the issue objectively.
So it's not really about, IMO, changing peoples' opinions - they're largely a lost cause. It's about educating future generations towards the concept of equality.
see above 😉Huh, fair enough. I’d honestly not even considered that.
So that’s a step in the right direction, it’s being considered. Now we just need to work on the reductio ad absurdum conclusion.
😉
Splendid. Right, off to work.
Poah wins in the “missing the point completely” awards
Indeed and the thread is just going round in circles. Some people just seem intent on completely missing the point or are just very stupid!
So it’s not really about, IMO, changing peoples’ opinions – they’re largely a lost cause. It’s about educating future generations towards the concept of equality.
Have you seen that documentary, Idiocracy....
piemonster
Free Member
I’ll just leave this hereYou can leave it where you like, but will it change anyones mind?
Its basically an insult after all. And surely after that last 8 years (Im counting the IndyScot ref) we should acknowledge that deriding those that you believe to be wrong doesn’t equal a change of heart.
That's exactly what I was saying - you reach a point where its pointless even trying to engage/educate some people. If people are insulted by that truth - doesn't make it less true? Should we stop calling those people out, because doing so makes them feel stupid?
I have, great movie, it's not what's going to happen though, fortunately. Society, collectively, is getting smarter. The change is already happening (in all aspects of equality, not just this), it's really evident to see, that is why certain types of people are getting very confused/scared and lashing out.Have you seen that documentary, Idiocracy….
Nickc…. it’s not about the individual, this is about societies attitude towards women.
I don't disagree, as I've said It probably should just die off. But society is made of individuals and our views and the expression of that, change slowly. We have made progress - you only need look at adverts of say; Airlines in the 70's to see how the exploitation of women is no longer acceptable for mainstream work.
BUT, it's hard to accept that the Monster Pit girls and others like them, are doing what they do unwilling - a cursory glance at the profiles of any of them reveals that they are Miss Utah or Miss "Something or other" They should be protected like any other employee with regards to assault or injury but, at the same time, they've made a choice to do this work, so they at least in part, complicit in it's continued existence.
Sexism is no different, except it’s even more ingrained in our (global) society, such that a lot of people can’t even acknowledge that a problem exists.
It's worse than that. I genuinely think that some people actively don't want to acknowledge that a problem exists. That's why they start tossing about phrases like "woke snowflake" in the misguided belief that it's an insult - the alternative is admitting that they've been wrong.
See also: the 'all lives matter' brigade and the recent backlash against transgender people who were simply asking "hey, bit of help and empathy over here?"
Should a scantily clad woman be arbitrarily placed next-to/on something you are trying to sell
What if that object is a vibrator?
BUT, it’s hard to accept that the Monster Pit girls and others like them, are doing what they do unwilling – a cursory glance at the profiles of any of them reveals that they are Miss Utah or Miss “Something or other” They should be protected like any other employee with regards to assault or injury but, at the same time, they’ve made a choice to do this work, so they at least in part, complicit in it’s continued existence.
I'm struggling to understand your point
Nobody is saying that they are doing anything unwillingly - or being exploited.
The issue is that this kind of role exists. As I said:
Should a scantily clad woman be arbitrarily placed next-to/on something you are trying to sell to people/men? Are they ornaments? Do we want people (young men in particular) to think of women like that?
Some people just seem intent on completely missing the point or are just very stupid!
I am - genuinely - becoming more and more of the opinion that in some quarters at least it's intentional. It's fine to be ignorant, I'm ignorant about plenty of things. Irish politics for instance - the north/south divide, the Troubles, what looks to me to be a bloody war over following the same religion in slightly different manner, whether Sinn Fein are the goodies or the baddies - not a clue to a point of embarrassment. But the ignorant can be educated whereas the wilfully ignorant are a lost cause.
Should we stop calling those people out, because doing so makes them feel stupid?
Surely that depends on the outcomes.
The stupid person may well be a parent passing on their morality. Do we really know how that is panning out, or are we again just assuming because we are right, it will happen.
Ive not really seen much in the way of analysis of which way society is actually drifting. On the one hand there is a fair bit or odious populist garbage out there, on the other hand weve not forced homosexuals to be chemically castrated for some time.
If anyone has a good, and impartial/objective large scale analysis rather than some selective bit of cherry picking id be interested to read it.
I like to hope were generally heading the right way, but im pretty much in a bubble at work and at home that would easily give an over optimistic picture.
Should a scantily clad woman be arbitrarily placed next-to/on something you are trying to sell
What if that object is a vibrator?
I suggest you google the word "arbitrarily," you seem to have misunderstood it.
What if that object is a vibrator?
So you agree that that would be an appropriate context (maybe)?
How about using them to sell an energy drink at a sports event? Would that be an appropriate context?
There is a large degree of circularity in the arguments being posted, but I suspect there is a slow evolution of ideas and ways of communicating concepts. The issues can be complex, especially where people haven't been exposed to them in a meaningful way before, or haven't tried to see things from other perspectives.
That cartoon is excellent.
Whats that woooshing noise? I think its the point flying right over jamborgieshead.
Are you doing this deliberately or are you incapable of understanding a simple point clearly expressed?
I’m struggling to understand your point
That the whole subject is complex, and bogged down in both behaviours that is genetically programmed into half the population and that at the same time is seen in a civilized society as a "bad thing" - rightly because of the consequences and harms it causes.
I don't think you can point at one group of people and say "This is all your fault" when as a society we probably need to agree how we tackle it