[Closed] WTF happened to the OU?

All universities were allowed to put up their fees in 2004, so they all did immediately.

OU joined in with the big money grab

Due to the lockdown it is now the SU

Market forces innit? its the price we pay for the neo liberal "capitalism is the ultimate form of democracy and freedom" world we live in.

its the price we pay for the neo liberal “capitalism

Was it not a Labour wheeze?

Was it not a Labour wheeze?

Im talking about the society we live in, not party politics.

Yeah, I looked at this last week as I was thinking of doing a course. I think doing a degree part time would take 7 years.

From their website: "At current prices, the total cost of your qualification would be £18,576"

Simply ain't gonna happen for me!

OU joined in with the big money grab

Funding has to come from somewhere. Not sure they had much choice.

Shift in funding was the choice of a series of governments. A series of political choices.

I was halfway through an HND, think I'd done 4 out of 8 required modules paying approx. £400 per module.
I decided to have a few months break before going for the second half and then missed out on the chance to complete the course at the existing cost. I think each module jumped to about £1600 so I just binned it and didn't complete.
The modules were just about worth £400, certainly not worth 4x that.

WTF happened, do the tories really hate social mobility so much

18 years of social mobility hating tory government ends in 1997. Student grants still exist. Tuition fees don't.

Labour introduced Tuition fees. In 98.

Labour increased the cap from 1 to 3k In 04. (200% increase in 6 years)

The coalition increased the cap to 9k in 12. (200% increase in 8 years)

The tories allowed for increase in line with inflation. (announced 15, to start in 17) circa 2.5% year on year [so based on the 9k cap, 9 years more for the same 2k increase under labour, or 44 years for another 200%]

The universities set their fees within that cap. Almost entirely they set them at max.

So yes, absolutely a tory conspiracy to keep the poor folk down, nothing to do with universities wanting to turn a profit (or at least meet costs, pay staff, rent buildings, that sort of thing) and absolutely nothing at all to do with our labour party. No siree Bob. Nothing to see here.

Im talking about the society we live in

If only it was a big society 🙂

Now there are so many course and or info online that if you are learning just for fun you can do so without doing an accredited course. If you want the certificate it's a different matter.

Currently part way through an Env Sci degree with them and think it’s worth the money. It’s the standard fee for a uni/degree.

They do plenty of free courses that are worth a look

Now there are so many course and or info online that if you are learning just for fun you can do so without doing an accredited course.

Funnily enough it was mentioned on Radio 2 this morning that the OU are offering free beginners language courses so I am about to attempt the Spanish one as it is a big hole in my basic European language ability.

https://www.open.edu/openlearn/

My fear is, that the fact it is free will result in a lack of motivation and the course will be dropped after a week or 2 🙂

^^^ ta, there's actually tons of free beginners courses on there for all sorts of subjects!

Yes v sad the ou costs it put me off.

My mate who I met at uni 30 years ago, we often discuss how lucky we were to be paid to study via free tuition fees, a maintenance grant and housing benefit. The latter was called something else then but it was help with rent. Then year 2 of working i could buy a house in sw london.

Roll forward 30 years the costs are eye watering. Still a good investment but the chance of home ownership before 30 is slim.

Luck of the draw I guess, or born in the right time.

Now there are so many course and or info online that if you are learning just for fun you can do so without doing an accredited course.

True, and that is probably the route I will take, maybe mixed with a couple of OU paid for courses, but there isn't quite the same sense of achievement at the end as having earned a degree.

When I left school, university wasn't a realistic opportunity. It was there, but no one in my life had talked to me about it, explained it as an option and definitely no one pushed me in that direction. It just wasn't expected for kids in our area to get a higher education, we were just expected to leave school at 16, get on a YTS scheme and become factory fodder if we were lucky.

I have always considered I was capable of achieving a degree, but my life has never really panned out to give me the opportunity. Now that I have the time to commit, it would be nice to prove it. But those costs still realistically put it beyond my reach.

MSP
I still fancy doing something, I am 50 so am not realistically doing it for my career, I just want to learn for fun

So the tax payer should part-fund you to have fun?

Now there are so many course and or info online that if you are learning just for fun you can do so without doing an accredited course.

But there might be an issue with quality, depending on who put the course together.

You might not get the same academic rigour as a properly accredited university course.

18 years of social mobility hating tory government ends in 1997. Student grants still exist. Tuition fees don’t.

Labour introduced Tuition fees. In 98.

Labour increased the cap from 1 to 3k In 04. (200% increase in 6 years)

The coalition increased the cap to 9k in 12. (200% increase in 8 years)

The tories allowed for increase in line with inflation. (announced 15, to start in 17) circa 2.5% year on year [so based on the 9k cap, 9 years more for the same 2k increase under labour, or 44 years for another 200%]

The universities set their fees within that cap. Almost entirely they set them at max.

So yes, absolutely a tory conspiracy to keep the poor folk down, nothing to do with universities wanting to turn a profit (or at least meet costs, pay staff, rent buildings, that sort of thing) and absolutely nothing at all to do with our labour party. No siree Bob. Nothing to see here.

Can't argue with any of that - except, the Tories actually froze inflationary increases to tuition fees in 2017/18 (at £9,250) and they will remain frozen at that level until at least September 2021.

So the tax payer should part-fund you to have fun?

"The tax payer" funds many things that sections of society find fun, from swimming pools, to public footpaths and even roads. Health and mental wellbeing through education and sporting/recreational activities throughout life should be something, any Government with even the slightest interest in the quality of life of the citizenship, encourage and if necessary subsidise to encourage mass participation.

But if you prefer education and sport to be limited to only the wealthy, well shame on you.

So yes, absolutely a tory conspiracy to keep the poor folk down,

And when you look at the facts rather than fake news propoghanda you’ll see that more people from poor backgrounds are going to university than ever before...so more social mobility not less.

It’s easier than ever for people from poor backgrounds to go to university. And with the increased funding universities are getting they are offering better quality courses to more people from a broader diverse backgrounds.

More people are going to university now, not because it is financially easier, but because society has changed to expect it.

The UK, inline with most of western Europe has risen from around 20% going to tertiary education in the 80s to nearly 40% now. All with different financing models, it isn't the finance model that has driven that change.

Now that I have the time to commit, it would be nice to prove it. But those costs still realistically put it beyond my reach.

You're 50 ish, so when you were younger it was paid for, in its entirety but you didn't do it.
Now you've made your choices in life, taken the benefits of those and you want to do something which is of minimal benefit to the public at large, for a bit of fun and are outraged because its not free now?
You grew up in the era of cheap housing, jobs for all and jobs for life, careers you could enter without an O level to your name and expect to progress in, when training was something your current employer would provide not expect you to pay for, when education was free and now you think those of us who didn't should be paying for you to have a bit of an educational jolly?

Pull the silver spoon from your back side, ditch the holidays to morzine, the power meters and the ipads, stop looking for handouts you don't need and pay for it yourself if it's of value.

subsidise to encourage mass participation

They do. Quite a lot. How much does primary school cost? Secondary? Further?

Higher education costs up to £38k a year for foreign students, do you think that 29k a year difference is pure profit or that some of it is made up by government funding?

I'd suggest an optician for your myopia might be more use than on OU course.

But if you prefer education and sport to be limited to only the wealthy, well shame on you.

As for sport, are there still council gyms/sports facilities etc? All the ones here got transitioned into private companies (with appropriate fee increases!) many years ago. (Not a good thing, obviously!)

MSP
But if you prefer education and sport to be limited to only the wealthy, well shame on you.

I was thinking funding generally for social good via the areas you mention. Your post seemed to lament the cost of a course to you personally

I’d rather free parks & museums than subsidised education undertaken for fun

You’re 50 ish, so when you were younger it was paid for, in its entirety but you didn’t do it.
Now you’ve made your choices in life, taken the benefits of those and you want to do something which is of minimal benefit to the public at large, for a bit of fun and are outraged because its not free now?
You grew up in the era of cheap housing, jobs for all and jobs for life, careers you could enter without an O level to your name and expect to progress in, when training was something your current employer would provide not expect you to pay for, when education was free and now you think those of us who didn’t should be paying for you to have a bit of an educational jolly?

Your making yourself look foolish now. Firstly you clearly don't understand life, it was no more a choice for me to not go to university than it was a choice not to be a international playboy and racing car driver. Just because such options exist on a theoretical level, doesn't mean they are realistic options for everybody.

I left school after the destruction of apprenticeships, and before further education was encouraged for all, there was mass unemployment and very little hope for anything as fancy as a career, the YTS was a cheap labour scheme for what industry was left. I like most in my area moved between temporary employment and the dole several times a year, not through choice but because that is all there was. Housing was relatively cheap, only if you were lucky enough to have a permanent job. It was no more possible to buy a house then if you didn't have the money as it is now. I have been made redundant twice (jobs for life?) and both times they financially destroyed me, because I was already in the lower end of the earnings scale.

But unlike you, I don't see this as a generational war, I think ongoing education should be available to all, it should have been for the past 40 years, and it should be for future generations. It should be available to you generation as well as mine, you might try studying and learning to not making crass generalisations.

I’d rather free parks & museums than subsidised education undertaken for fun

What's a museum if not education?

Your making yourself look foolish now.

Bad maths. I got as far as 70s then got cross, rather than mid 80s for leaving school but, by the by. It's up there now.

But unlike you, I don’t see this as a generational war

I don't, but I absolutely don't think that anyone who is in their 30s or 130s should be moaning about costs to them for doing something as a hobby whilst saying there isn't enough subsidy for younger folk.

It's the same problem as "I'd like half a million for my ex council house please, it's disgusting my kids can't afford a house".

If kids now struggle to do things because of the cost, the solution is absolutely to tax and charge the crap out of people like me & like you. Someone has to pay, somewhere along the line and simply put, the subsidy has to be of need long before desire comes into it.

not making crass generalisations.

do the tories really hate social mobility so much they have to price normal people out of

All guilty of that I guess.

What’s a museum if not education?

Not Fun? I guess its ok if it's educational as long as you don't enjoy it. So non of this modern interactive science and technology malarkey, just solemnly looking at dusty stolen artefacts.

somewhatslightlydazed
What’s a museum if not education?

I warmly invite the OP and all STW-ers to fill their educational boots at any free museum/s of their choosing - when they reopen and observing all social distancing requirements 😀

So fact checking here, I was in the OU when the funding got pulled under the coalition. They safeguarded fees for existing students whilst they had to increase fees for new students. They absolutely have not increased fees to the maximum nor were they in favour of the move.

There are grants available to help with fees like the ILA in Scotland and presumably others around the country. They are subject to certain conditions though as they are available according to need rather than want.

So the tax payer should part-fund you to have fun learn

As a society, with these prevalent views, we really are ****ed, aren't we?

Sigh

Due to the lockdown tories it is now the SU FU

FTFY.

when education was free and now you think those of us who didn’t should be paying for you to have a bit of an educational jolly?

You're looking at a generation coming through who will be working until they are 70, in a world that is changing rapidly. So who is going to pay to train and retrain? If you want to compete you need the workforce who can. But then again as is clear from the last couple of years too many people think that you can pull up the drawbridge and seal the UK from the wider world with no consequences.

I did some on the old pricing model which was much more reasonable. did they used to be subsidised before the government tuition fee introduction then?
Agreed they are not max price, 6k a year rather than 9.. still that ain't cheap.

Agree with earlier posters though, it used to be one of the only real ways of getting a cheap, high quality education at home. Not the case now with the internet (unless you need the letters after your name but if it's for fun or self improvement, do you really..?)

as an aside, when I switch location to Scotland, the course I've just signed up for which costs me £1500 in England is circa £500. That stings somewhat 🙁

oh and Peter Horrocks happened

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/apr/13/open-university-vice-chancellor-peter-horrocks-resigns-after-vote-of-no-confidence

It looks like some posters here could do with a course on differentiation of facts, assumptions and nuances of situations. Or they should go into politics where lacking in these skill seem not to be a problem but a positive.

I did some on the old pricing model which was much more reasonable. did they used to be subsidised before the government tuition fee introduction then?

They are still subsidised. On average 47% of student loan debt goes unpaid and is written off by the government at the end of the 30-year loan term. Source:

OU also penalised by the REF system which government uses to rank & determine funding levels.

It means all unis must focus on research they produce, there's no exception for a distance learning uni like the OU. So they have to have much more physical infrastructure & staffing.

As for £27k loan repayment cut off - is below national average salary & considerably below graduate salary (which is ~ 10 k more) so most will have to pay it back

The loan I got many years ago was much smaller and at much better interest rate, than offered now.

Saddling graduates with 30k of debt is ridiculous, the cap should never have been raised as high as it is now.

In the most successful EU economies, further education is either free or near enough. Maybe if we'd invested in education, we wouldn't burning down 5G masts or consistently voting against our interests. Investing in education gets you returns.

People who are against public funding of education should really pick up a book themselves and read about what leveraging in the private sector and about how the financial system actually works.

As for £27k loan repayment cut off – is below national average salary

At the moment, someone who earns £27,725 per year is required to make student loan repayments of £15 per month. Is that so unreasonable?

so most will have to pay it back

Wrong. See link I posted on previous page - 30% are forecast to repay in full and on average borrowers will pay back 53% of their loans over the 30 year term.

ANYWAY more relevant to the OP is that
a) I know someone who went directly from school qualifications to a doctorate (experienced a load of setbacks at a crucial age then went on to do Very Clever And Valuable Work and long story short was invited to write it all up and submit for a doctorate)
B) Having seen a load of nephews and nieces graduate I can understand the desire for that public recognition but also being a thrifty soul can understand balking at the cost of an undergraduate degree - how about going straight to a Master's? As a mature student you might we'll find the entry criteria relaxed and you'd be looking at ?~£8k rather than 2/3 times that.

Did the old business model of £600 courses not work? Have they upped the content/teaching/resources THAT much that it justifies the hike or is it just everyone has done it so they joined in?

I warmly invite the OP and all STW-ers to fill their educational boots at any free museum/s of their choosing – when they reopen and observing all social distancing requirements

So if its OK to get free education from a museum, why do you think its not OK to get free education from a university course?

I still fancy doing something, I am 50 so am not realistically doing it for my career, I just want to learn for fun

Now there are so many course and or info online that if you are learning just for fun you can do so without doing an accredited course.

True, and that is probably the route I will take, maybe mixed with a couple of OU paid for courses, but there isn’t quite the same sense of achievement at the end as having earned a degree.

“The tax payer” funds many things that sections of society find fun, from swimming pools, to public footpaths and even roads...

...But if you prefer education and sport to be limited to only the wealthy, well shame on you.

You know that people pay to use swimming pools - albeit they may be subsidised? And that the OU is subsidised. Your argument is a bit like saying, OMG it used to only be 60p to go swimming now a session is £3.50. The tax payer also funds things like the free BBC Bitesize learning stuff, the free bits of OU, etc. So its not like they don't support things like you are wanting, just not the particular format you wanted.

FWIW I suspect you'll find that degrees are quite the achievement you think they are - to me they are an endurance test not a particular challenge - yes a 1st class honours (I didn't get one!) might be a real mark of success but anyone with a basic mental aptitude, enough time and the commitment to stick to it can get a basic degree. That's not to dismiss them because they do have a benefit over your ad hoc training: some kind of overall structure and syllabus. Sometimes to be really good at something you have to endure learning the less fun, or seemingly less relevant parts too; beware:

If you’ve got any kind of knack/natural talent just crack on surely, no better way to learn!

...is a sure fire way to develop bad habits or turn an easy job into a massive nightmare...

Personally though if I was going to spend your original budget on "learning" I'd probably look at udemy, codeacademy etc.

Did the old business model of £600 courses not work? Have they upped the content/teaching/resources THAT much that it justifies the hike or is it just everyone has done it so they joined in?

The courses cost more to deliver than £600 back then too (though there has been plenty of improvements since, resources per student across HE were at a major low in the late 90s/early 00s, hence the fee increases), but back then the govt subsidy was provided as direct grant to providers, rather than student loan write-offs.

Why did it shift you might ask? Partly because of the aformentioned squeeze on finances that led to the introduction of £3k and £9k fees. Partly because the shift to loans meant funding shifted from DEL to AME expenditure in the govt accounts (and - helpfully for HE - became much harder for govt to squeeze in the same way it's squeezed e.g. NHS funding since 2010 - HE got away comparatively lightly during post-GFC austerity). And partly because of accounting rules that are too complicated for me to explain: https://wonkhe.com/blogs/the-fiscal-illusion-has-gone-but-what-has-replaced-it/

OU also penalised by the REF system which government uses to rank & determine funding levels.

It means all unis must focus on research they produce, there’s no exception for a distance learning uni like the OU. So they have to have much more physical infrastructure & staffing.

Thats an interesting problem, and a fair point. I wonder though if things like current Covid crisis will highlight you don't really need as much physical infrastructure as people though (especially for a virtual uni). Even more though, I wonder if there aren't those who did PhD's who end up in industry (so not actively publishing) who would quite enjoy being part of a "citizen science" project purely for the hell of it, who would find the OU could provide a framework for cooperation, research and advancing publications that as private individuals is a huge hurdle... and in return the OU for "hosting" that (and possibly providing some degree of vetting) would gain their citation scores?

You could try the apprenticeship levy direction if what your doing is relevant to the company you work for (probably not in the learning for fun side of things).

Yonks back in the 90s I was a bit bored at work so did a second degree in Maths with the OU then wandered off and did some of their Maths MSC course. Was very cheap back then, under £200 a course IIRC. Then I bought a house and DIY ate up all my spare time.

Back then it was 'hobby' prices, quite affordable if you just wanted to learn something for fun.

One thing I will say is the quality of their undergrad course material was absolutely superb - beautifully structured and very easy to study on your own. The MSC was completely different as it wasn't really in the OU mould and just outsourced to a random lecturer at a bricks and mortar Uni for each module, so photocopied hand written lecture notes.

Wrong. See link I posted on previous page – 30% are forecast to repay in full and on average borrowers will pay back 53% of their loans over the 30 year term.

So most will just have a huge debt hanging over them for the rest of their life?

Affecting mortgage applications, credit rating etc

Being stuck in a debt hole is grim, the government should not be piling on more

@kimbers sorry, you're talking out of your arse 😂 student loans DO NOT go on file so have no bearing on mortgage, credit rating etc as the lenders will not be aware of them.

So most will just have a huge debt hanging over them for the rest of their life?

Affecting mortgage applications, credit rating etc

Being stuck in a debt hole is grim, the government should not be piling on more

Student loan debt doesn't affect your credit rating. It affects mortgage applications insofar as it's another demand on your salary, just like a car loan. But with repayments at £15 a month on a ~£28k salary it's hardly going to be the straw that stops you getting on the property ladder. If your salary drops below £27,725/year (or the monthly/weekly equivalent depending on how often you get paid) you stop repaying, and don't restart until it goes above the threshold again.

Also given any unpaid debt is cancelled after 30 years at no detriment to the borrower, it's hardly like a Wonga loan. Or a mortgage or a PCH deal for that matter.

If you're going to criticise the system - and it does have plenty of flaws - at least get some facts straight.

EDIT: zilog beat me to it with a much more pithy response 😀

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Lifes too short to bicker online

FWIW I suspect you’ll find that degrees are quite the achievement you think they are – to me they are an endurance test not a particular challenge – yes a 1st class honours (I didn’t get one!) might be a real mark of success but anyone with a basic mental aptitude, enough time and the commitment to stick to it can get a basic degree.

Time being a critical component. When you're working and otherwise getting on with life its easy for one curveball to **** your entire year up. Distance learning isn't the gentle stroll you're making it out to be.

scruff9252
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Lifes too short to bicker online

Too right mate. A bit of pub banter but deteriorates into a blow by blow rebuff. I wouldn’t worry too much about it 👍

Personally though if I was going to spend your original budget on “learning” I’d probably look at udemy, codeacademy etc.

I'd certainly be very careful with some of the courses on there though.  Udemy always have special offers, so don't pay full price, but then they also have quite a few free Youtube courses which have been pirated. So definitely check Youtube first to see if the same content is there for free by the original creator first.

Really depends on what you're interested in learning. Programming language or something then there no way in hell udemy and co would even get a cent out of me.  For something totally different to what I do now and a totally different faculty to my Uni days, but not wanting a 3 year commitment, I'd be looking for stuff like MIT free lectures.

i'd much rather give a few bob to a real University for online courses, where you can be certain that it is genuine, quality, educational content.

I did start doing an intro to quantum mechanics (free Youtube thing), but it felt like my brain was going to implode.

At the moment, someone who earns £27,725 per year is required to make student loan repayments of £15 per month. Is that so unreasonable?

On the philosophical point of people paying tuition fees, yes it is unreasonable. We don't make people pay back unemployment benefit, or anyone who has treatment on the NHS so why single out tertiary education? Graduates generally earn a bit more but all that means is that they will pay more tax anyway, why saddle them with loans that have an excessive interest rate? Plenty of the graduate that work in my (very well paid) industry do worry about their loans and are very glad of the "extra" money they have after they have paid them off. I'm glad I was at uni in the '90s. The grants might have been shit by then but at least I was lumbered with (too much) debt at the end of it.