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I said before, and I think it was also said earlier in this thread. If they wouldn’t/couldn’t change laws and attitudes after Sandy Hook then they never will. Debate is futile.
Looking the other way when horrors like this happen is just the price that politicians are prepared to pay for their NRA dollars. Just the cost of doing business. And the structural imbalances in US democracy mean that Biden knows attacking gun laws means certain defeat in the midterms, and probably for him personally in 2024.
Even basket ball coaches showing more moral leadership that politicians
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-61576574
Basketball legend and current Golden State coach Steve Kerr passionately wades in ahead of a decisive game in Texas (his academic dad was killed by a gunman in Beirut in 80’s)
https://twitter.com/warriors/status/1529246789290934272
Gut wearing a t-shirt with the slogan "**** your gun free zone" loses his daughter in the shooting and asks why.
"it's like rain on your wedding day....."
The United States really is an unappealing place..... And to think this is a country the rest of the world is meant to look up to....
Screwed abortion laws.
Guns.
Fat bastids.
The idea that any form of taxation and redistribution is basically communism.
Really is quite pathetic.
You forgot their utterly demented interpretation of Christianity, Alpin. But yes.
shermer75
Free MemberThe most interesting thing for me is that there is a majority in favour of more gun control
It's a perfect snapshot of how generalities and specifics can clash in the human brain.
Want to stop people on no fly lists getting guns? Yes
Want to stop convicted felons from getting guns? Yes
Want to stop the medically insane from getting guns? Yes
Want to stop young kids from getting guns? Yes
Want waiting times and background checks? Yes
Want a ban on specific things such as fully automatic rifles, bump stocks, etc? Yes
BUT NO TO GUN CONTROL.
Don’t underestimate the power and control/money that lobbying interests have over the entire governments ability to pass laws
Exactly! So much corruption, it stinks
I’ve just read a tweet that stated that as there are 50 million primary school children in the USA, then such shootings are a one-in-a-million event and therefore reactions are overblown. I guess the parents of victims can take comfort…
The usa has a population of 330 million, seems unlikely that 50 million of them are in primary school.
Oof
Whoosh parrot is strong at the NRA
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Surprised no-one shot him.
And they say Americans don’t do sarcasm…
And they say Americans don’t do sarcasm…
Oh they do, its just that precious few of them understand it 😂
There's more than a few Gun totting Americans working on the ship with me.
For most of them the reason for owning guns is to make sure the government is too afraid to try and take the guns off them. There is a genuine sentiment of protecting themselves from a tyrant in the Whitehouse....
For most of them the reason for owning guns is to make sure the government is too afraid to try and take the guns off them. There is a genuine sentiment of protecting themselves from a tyrant in the Whitehouse….
Crazy innit. I can't think of any country other than the United States where that isn't the least acceptable reason for owning a weapon.
Apart from the US all countries take a dim view of citizens who openly say they want to have weapons to fight the government, it invariably violates antiterrorism legislation.
For most of them the reason for owning guns is to make sure the government is too afraid to try and take the guns off them. There is a genuine sentiment of protecting themselves from a tyrant in the Whitehouse….
Isn't that the core reason for the 2nd Amendment in the first place?
Said it before the USA is basically a third world country with electricity...
This is all you need to know to understand how it funtions - tribes, fiefdoms, States that operate like countries, Counties that operate like states, religious fundamentalism, segregation, and every mad **** has a gun.
I have worked there, worked for them and worked with them... the vast majority are unhinged.
I am married to one and I work with many. The vast majority are NOT unhinged. Please don't throw negative stereotypes around like that.
Spent ten years in the Midwest, West Texas, Georgia, Florida panhandle..... maybe i was overrun by demographics?
Spent no time east or west coast so probably less unhinged folks there.
My comment refers to religious, social, racist, guns etc and their views on these things. These people are not a minority (ref Trumps vote) they are a majority in the areas i was working in.
they are a majority in the areas in was working in
Yes.
I was just about to post this. Other countries have lots of guns, often just as many, but nowhere the same gun deaths.
Other countries with high levels of gun ownership also have equivalent 'successful' suicide levels...
"In 2016, firearm suicides in the United States of America represented 35.3% of global firearm suicides. Among central European countries, Switzerland has a high rate of suicide by shooting, particularly in men."
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0267817
Spent ten years in the Midwest, West Texas, Georgia, Florida panhandle….. maybe i was overrun by demographics?
Spent no time east or west coast so probably less unhinged folks there.
My experience of working Midwest, South and East Coast is the same as yours.
It's beyond me though, and I've shot various types of guns my whole life (and have a licence in the UK etc), how they've decided that controlling ownership & use is something they're not really going to do.
The vast majority are NOT unhinged.
Whatever your personal experiences to claim that the "vast majority" of a nation is unhinged is pretty offensive.
There appears to be a widespread belief on here that there should be no limit to the level of insults directed at Americans. Years ago there used to be two or three regular STWers who lived in the United States, I suspect they eventually stopped posting because they found this place so unwelcoming.
I don't get it either. I think the likes of the NRA see it as the thin end of the wedge. You suggest a licensing scheme and the reaction is "OMG THEY'RE COMING TO TAKE AWAY YOUR GUNS!!1!"
Realistically though, the horse has bolted in the US. Even if you were to successfully implement "gun licences" akin to driving licences, it would take decades to catch up with current ownership and the people most needing control won't give two shits about any legislation. I'd hazard that you'd be far better off controlling the supply of ammunition.
There appears to be a widespread belief on here
Whatever your personal experiences, to claim that the “vast majority” of the forum insults Americans is pretty offensive.
the christmas card for republican representative for the most recent school shooting
Aye, Klunk... just about sums the whole thing up 😕😕
Apart from the US all countries take a dim view of citizens who openly say they want to have weapons to fight the government, it invariably violates antiterrorism legislation.
I reckon there should be a Xmas special every year where the Guns Rights crowd pick 10 folks and whatever weapons they can get and go head to head with 10* US marines and whatever they can bring to the party.
* well one US marine controlling a Reaper and 9 marines in the bar watching, obvs
A great many would get steam rollered, the obsession the civilians, irrespective of nationality have with weapons, warfare/combat never ceases to amaze me.
A great many would get steam rollered, the obsession the civilians, irrespective of nationality have with weapons, warfare/combat never ceases to amaze me.
Its the romance of war is the problem, and it can more than likely never be solved.
The Onion is on it again.
There were 51 school shootings in the United States last year, almost as many as weeks in the year.
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/school-shootings-this-year-how-many-and-where/2022/01
How fearful must American parents be to see their children go off to school......."will it be their school this week?"
Sadly I fear this latest shooting will turn into an attack on the mental health of trans people and the righteous religious folks good battle with sin. Gun ownerships obvious (to the sane) relationship to what occurred might not even get a look in.
How fearful must American parents be to see their children go off to school…….”will it be their school this week?”
We are. But a more pressing concern is finding out which parents own firearms and whether they keep them safe. Ultimately, it means that mini 10 isn't allowed to play at friends' houses until we know. Which is ****ing bullshit. We're in a Rep county, and they want to arm the teachers. Because, guns. ****s. I think it's been two mass shootings this week. I shit you not; some ****ing idiot lost their ****ing gun at a ski resort last week. Fell out of their pocket, and they didn't notice until they got home. A ski instructor found it in the middle of a green run. When you deal with this level of ****ing stupidity, it's not hard to see why these things happen. **** guns and ****s with guns.
How fearful must American parents be to see their children go off to school…….”will it be their school this week?”
I understand now what many Americans want to home school.
How fearful must American parents be to see their children go off to school…….”will it be their school this week?”
Cant be healthy for the kids either doing "active shooter" drills.
Does the little kid in that "Christmas" photo have a gun hidden in the box or is the bloke slightly in touch with reality and decided he was too young for his own gun.
I am also curious whether he is going to get camo wrapping for the rest of the rifle as a christmas present or if its going to stay a halfarsed job.
I reckon there should be a Xmas special every year where the Guns Rights crowd pick 10 folks and whatever weapons they can get and go head to head with 10* US marines and whatever they can bring to the party.
this would need you to find marines willing to support gun control
While I share everyone’s incredulity at American gun culture, I can’t help but feel the genie’s out the bottle now and no amount of gun control is going to make much difference, the place is clearly awash with guns and the people who own them aren’t going to give them up.
It will take a huge change in culture. Making it socially unacceptable would help drive that change, but that would need serious commitment and a message accepted by everyone that supports a sensible level of control. That is, IMHO, never going to happen, but it would go beyond politics and would make a change.
This makes me feel awful but mass shootings in the US barely register with me anymore. That’s pretty scary. The fact I can basically shrug and move to reading the next news article is genuinely frightening. It’s an utterly ****ed up situation and I can’t see it changing in our lifetimes.
I am also curious whether he is going to get camo wrapping for the rest of the rifle as a christmas present or if its going to stay a halfarsed job.
It's a suppressor shroud, designed to reduce the heat shimmer from the suppressor when firing and to prevent burns when you transition from rifle to side arm.
AKA as a cock sleeve when sported by douche bags like this.
Here is some advice from Congressman Andy Ogles.
https://twitter.com/AndyOgles/status/1366103355731439617
Obviously he hasn't read everything in the bible otherwise he would have heard about the Christmas message of peace, and not instead associated the event with being heavily armed with lethal weapons.
Perhaps he doesn't believe that Christmas is important to Christians?
I am sure that it comes as no surprise that Congressman Andy Ogles is a far-right supporter of Donald Trump and claims that the current US president should be arrested for treason.
It will take a huge change in culture.
But possibly not as big as you might imagine. Two thirds of Americans don't own guns and the majority of households don't have any guns at all.
I reckon that vested interests and lack of political will is probably the biggest obstacle.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx
@ernielynch - dunno what message you’re getting, but I read that as Ogles saying to the Nat-C’s, who are the ones ranting about Libs being ‘Woke’ and destroying ‘Mur’kkka, that if you’re claiming to be a Christian and following Christ’s teachings, then you are, by definition, ‘Woke’.
I have no idea who he is, tbh.
this would need you to find marines willing to support gun control
Not unheard of. I'd imagine they have a better handle on the reality of gun use and the effectiveness of civilian militias.
I have no idea who he is, tbh.
The representative for the district where the shooting happened.
As for it not being Christian dont people remember the famous passage about the attempted arrest of Jesus?
"When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. But Jesus answered, "No more of this!. Why are you messing around with swords when as the son of God I have brought back M-4s. Lol the disciples riddled the soldiers with bullets and called down a drone strike on the legionary camp before entering Jerusalem through the city wall in an M1 Abrams ".
Kids getting rearranged by AR15s just represents acceptable losses to a critical component of the US electorate, and therefore to a significant part of the political establishment. They appear to have made their decision - as has been said before, if nothing changed after Sandy Hook, nothing will prompt change, not Uvalde, not the latest event.
Perhaps it would be more honest to move on from being 'heartbroken' and offering 'thoughts and prayers', and just state openly that it's the price of doing business.
The onion have dusted off their sadly over used template to sum it up perfectly again.
A great many would get steam rollered, the obsession the civilians, irrespective of nationality have with weapons, warfare/combat never ceases to amaze me.
Tactical shizzle sells units to muppets (the article is fairly depressing):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/ar-15-america-gun-culture-politics/
Nice to see the usual ‘thoughts and prayers’ making their regular appearance. Where on earth would we be without them?
When it comes to the availability of guns, all you have to do is ask absolutely anyone to imagine some of the complete headcases they've known over the course of their lives, then ask them how they'd feel about them having easy access to assault rifles with enough ammo to fuel a genocide?
I bet we can all think of at least of couple of people who would definitely have carried out a mass shooting if they had access to the means with which to do it. At least in this country they mainly have to be content with glassing people in pubs and having fights outside kebab houses at 3am
Local Nashville congressman Andy Ogles claims that the right to bear arms is essential to "prevent tyrannical rule".
So its good to hear that a senior mainstream politician is armed and ready to wage civil war against the United States government if necessary.
In most countries that would be classed as terrorism and left to deranged individuals on the political fringes.
When it comes to the availability of guns, all you have to do is ask absolutely anyone to imagine some of the complete headcases they’ve known over the course of their lives
To be fair, I only have to imagine the devastation that would ensue, if I had access to a firearm, every time I visit a supermarket. The fact that I can't get my hands on a gun when life annoys me is a very good thing.
I typed something like this yesterday, but deleted it, so here's a shorter version:
1. I'm 100% in favor of strict gun control (and would go for a near total ban, or something along the lines of at least what one of the framers of the constitution had in mind, with controls on carrying firearms away from home).
2. The rise in shootings is NOT correlated to the availability of high capacity, high calibre, reasonably accurate semi-automatic weapons. These have been available in large numbers in the US for decades.
3. It is correlated (at least from my perspective) to the right-wing fetishization of guns, increasing inequality and the culture proxy-war that's raging. I say proxy-war as I don't believe the instigators (at least on the right) really give a crap about trans/drag/abortion/CRT, they care about them as easy ways to build outrage, and hence power. Fascism really is on the rise here.
4. It's also correlated with a decline in mental health, and in the state and social structures that used to support people. A stunning statistic is that suicide is the second leading cause of death among 10-14 year olds. source.
5. I don't know how we fix it, it feels like a crisis is slow rolling in, and I think the 2024 elections will be the crux.
I'm making backup plans in case it makes sense to leave, fortunately we are in the (fairly) sane PNW.
At least the riding is excellent.
Local Nashville congressman Andy Ogles claims that the right to bear arms is essential to “prevent tyrannical rule”.
Surely thoughts and prayers would deal with those tyrants?
Or is it that, in reality, something more is needed.
Tactical shizzle sells units to muppets (the article is fairly depressing):
I know, I judge them quite harshly. But people love playing dress up. Always love seeing a mealteam six cosplayer out and about.
Surely thoughts and prayers would deal with those tyrants?
Or is it that, in reality, something more is needed.
The irony is Senators are a part of the potential 'tyrannical' govt. ****ing nutjobs.
Look, here comes one of the crack Gravy Seals now
https://twitter.com/You****ingIdio9/status/1640021263375532033
But people love playing dress up. Always love seeing a mealteam six cosplayer out and about.
My favorite so far has been the guy taking his baby for a stroll around our neighborhood wearing some sort of 2ndAmend t-shirt and his gun on his hip. I'm guessing in case he had to defend himself from a tyrannical group of soccer moms intent on overthrowing the government. Nobody expects tyrannical soccer moms.Or something.
5. I don’t know how we fix it
No I am sure that there is no easy fix. However as the problem appears to be that the views of a minority are profoundly impacting on the majority it should be fixable, in a country which prides itself as a democracy.
Any fix presumably would involve constitutional change. The Founding Fathers might have spoken of the "tyranny of the majority" but opposition to gun control appears to be "tyranny of the minority".
Would tackling the issue of "independent expenditures” from unaccountable organisations help to loosen their grip?
Free speech is fine but it isn't free if you have to pay for it.
The solution may be in governmental/political accountability. If you genuinely have checks, balances and accountability with outcomes that ensure democracy isn't being usurped by corrupt or compromised individuals you can work on the narrative of the perceived need for defence from a tyrannical state.
I can absolutely see why some feel more secure packing heat, even if it is a false sense of security. How bad and sad is it that a nation's politics has got so divisive, aided by a complicit media and funded and driven by corporations that leads people to think guns are the solution?
After 24 years of service, if I felt the need to have to arm myself as a civilian, something is utterly broken. A view that is shared by some of my brothers across the pond.
5. I don’t know how we fix it
Move.
The problem is that a lot of the US doesn't want it fixing. The reason they have so many guns is because they like them.
The stats linked earlier is damning; people want tighter gun control so long as it doesn't apply to them. You might as well be asking how in the UK we can fix the problem of cars (and they're a lot harder to conceal).
I find it absolutely staggering that anyone would object to a cooling-off period or to basic background checks. Surely, surely, "we still want guns but let's stop giving them to nutters" can't be a wild and crazy notion. What sort of person needs a gun _right now_ and can't wait a couple of weeks? That's never going to end well, is it.
you can work on the narrative of the perceived need for defence from a tyrannical state.
That doesnt work well against the level of conspiracy theories in play nowadays and the sheer sense of victimhood.
Plus if you are seriously scared about tyranny effort would probably be best placed in learning chemistry and electronics for IEDs and getting friendly with foreign states (okay guess the NRA being in the pay of Putin has managed this one).
After 24 years of service, if I felt the need to have to arm myself as a civilian, something is utterly broken.
I worked with one yank for a time who happily announced how in every room there was a handgun or shotgun within easy reach (large rooms had a couple) in case of someone breaking into the house.
Couldnt help but think a better solution would be to move.
After all at that level of risk surely you cant afford to go out for a hard ride and come back knackered or go for a few beers.
Oddly though they didnt go for the more boring home security such as heavy duty doors, vicious hedge and a couple of loud mutts.
I can absolutely see why some feel more secure packing heat, even if it is a false sense of security.
You see this is the bit that I don't understand at all, how can it even give them a false sense of security?
Congressman Andy Ogles and his family might feel that they are well-armed but how can they begin to imagine that they can take on the might of the United States government and outgun them?
Surely they cannot believe that even if they were to form a militia with like-minded individuals that they could achieve what the confederacy couldn't achieve against a much weaker opponent?
The problem is that a lot of the US doesn’t want it fixing. The reason they have so many guns is because they like them.
It's slightly OT, but I think to how many hours of instruction & practice I've had on various systems to maintain a high degree of competency on firearms and in the US they're given out like candy.
My view has put me at odds with American friends because I've stated I don't want some fat, bloating walt anywhere near me in public with a firearm who has had little to no training. I don't subscribe to the 'good guy with a gun' maxim because if they don't know what they're doing they can pose a wider threat to others.
But then the other side of that coin is if training and proficiency became a requirement of ownership then when shootings occured, the body count would be a lot higher.
I work with a few hard core gut totting Americans. One at least has a whole arsenal as he genuinely believes in his lifetime either some dictatorial government will try to suppress the people or some natural disaster will happen which basically precipitates civil war. Even he believes there should be more gun controls. BUT and I think this was the "ahha" moment for me. Its like taxes - there should be more gun controls right up until the point that it limits HIS freedoms. Much like asking people if we should increase taxes on the rich - yes, just so long as we have defined rich ad people who earn more than me! He actually would tell you its all the Brit's fault - if we had simply acceded to their independence there would be much less fear of governments oppressing the people.
I'm surprised that in the US, the land of litigation, there is not more vicarious liability. Gun owners, guns sales people etc being held liable for the consequences.
@dissonance, I did miss a bit out about feeling like they're too far down that rabbit hole. So your point absolutely stands and I agree.
@ernielynch it's not based in any reality hence the false sense. Weapons possession is an odd thing, to some they're a tool that has specific use, to others it transfers a sense of power. The reality is as you point out, they would get steam-rollered if the military were onside with the Govt. If they were not then there would be limited conflict as a coup would be in motion as the military who swear an oath to uphold the constitution would be duty bound to remove a tyrannical govt*.
*all in theory.
The problem is that a lot of the US doesn’t want it fixing. The reason they have so many guns is because they like them.
Have got a link?
Everything I have seen suggests the opposite.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx
The problem is that there are somewhere between 350-450 million guns in America. Cramming that genie back in the bottle with the way things stand right now seems improbable - maybe in 20 years or so?
At this point in America, we can't even agree on "what is" - let alone "what should be" there is a difference in opinion about objective reality, let alone an idea for what a better future would look like.
And, while the random deaths of school children at the hands of the mentally unwell is unacceptable, horrific, and a stain on the nation, it's not even close to the leading cause of death, even including those involving firearms. I'm not downplaying the trauma (my kid texted me during a lockdown at her school - which was terrifying), but we have to address the wider issues leading to all this shit as well. Focusing on these hugely emotive events involving a mental health crisis of a single person gives too many easy-outs for those who use the 2nd Amendment to win power, or make money.
The same goes on focussing on a type of weapon, or a subclass (AR15), yes these are bought by your classic 'meal team 6' wannabee types who mistake a custom stock and a red dot for a personality, but they aren't involved in that many killings, and they make those calling for a ban look hysterical and ill-informed.
I think that one route to change might be to appeal to the strong vein of "American exceptionalism" that runs through this place. Going on at people about how shit things are makes them defensive. When debating healthcare with my fellow Americans I've had more success with "shouldn't the richest country in the world aspire to be a place where no one dies because they can't get medicine?" than "you guys are nuts, you should get an NHS".
There must be a similar approach that can reel in the decent "hand over heart with the national anthem" people I meet at the hockey games.
BUT and I think this was the “ahha” moment for me. Its like taxes – there should be more gun controls right up until the point that it limits HIS freedoms.
Surely if the majority of Americans don't own a gun, which seems to be the case, that attitude shouldn't present a problem?
I think that one route to change might be to appeal to the strong vein of “American exceptionalism” that runs through this place.
Yeah I can see the logic in that.
I find it absolutely staggering that anyone would object to a cooling-off period or to basic background checks. Surely, surely, “we still want guns but let’s stop giving them to nutters” can’t be a wild and crazy notion. What sort of person needs a gun _right now_ and can’t wait a couple of weeks? That’s never going to end well, is it.
The problem with ANY control at this point is the existence of <1 (not evenly distributed) gun per person already. It's like arguments about drug policy in most of the western word, there's just too much in circulation to make a meaningful dent on it. And so drug/gun liberals argue responsible use should be legal, etc etc etc.
If someone really want's to get a hold of a gun, there'd be someone on a street corner prepared to sell them one.
The difference between the UK <1996 and the US, is that the UK has never had a critical mass of guns. We could turn around the next day and effectively ban guns and have most of them voluntarily surrendered pretty quickly. Three decades on we're worried about badly made 3D printed guns that ware as likely to backfire as do any damage to a target.
The problem with ANY control at this point is the existence of <1 (not evenly distributed) gun per person already. It’s like arguments about drug policy in most of the western word, there’s just too much in circulation to make a meaningful dent on it.
If someone really want’s to get a hold of a gun, there’d be someone on a street corner prepared to sell them one.
Unless I am missing something obvious surely they could start by making carrying a gun illegal?
Even if the US is awash with guns making it a criminal offence to carry one in public would help to reduce their use?
Heavy fines and imprisonment for repeated offenders would surely have an affect?
It would certainly reduce some of the perceived benefits of owning a gun. And that would be a start.
https://theweek.com/articles/478773/nypds-infrared-gun-scanner
No one argues that it should be legal to carry a knife in the UK because there are more potentially lethal kitchen knives than there are people.
Great interview highlighting the rank hypocrisy of the GOP on this
https://twitter.com/SouthpawLeftist/status/1640797477128527872?s=20
Also just because a problem can't be fixed overnight doesn't mean you shouldn't start the process. Do future generations have to keep fearing their children be murdered at school because the current generation are to weak and feeble to even start the process.
@MSP funnily enough was talking about this concept with a ge tremendous today who met with the Dalai Lama once, he said something similar about suffering in general.
We seem to be unable to think beyond our own horizon with problem solving, more so now than ever.
I only took a cursory look, but I couldn't find a federal crime for the gun owner in the event their gun is used in a felony by someone else. If this doesn't exist already, then it's a good starting point. Min sentence of 10 years should help people keep their shit safer. If it does exist and isn't working for prosecution, changing it would be good. This is of course, assuming that there is an actual registry of guns. This is probably not at fed level, so that will probably screw this idea.
IDK anything about gun ownership and have very little interest in finding out about it!