WTAF! US / guns

I mean, we know it's bad, but those numbers are ridiculous.

It's fine, they've only got 390 million guns.

It’s fine, they’ve only got 390 million guns.

They could easily send a few hundred thousand to Ukraine, except most of those owners are likely RepugliKKKans, who follow Agent Orange in believing everything that comes from Putin and his useful idiots in the US media.

390 million guns and a population of 332,403,650 - fire power to the people!

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

I can't see it ever changing over there, not enough people want it to, not even close.

Yes guns seem to be so engrained in the culture that there is no way that's ever going to change. Gun control measures are seen as a guaranteed way of losing an election.

not enough people want it to, not even close.

From what I recall quite a few do but the majority arent as motivated, or funded by russian money, as the pro gun lobby to put pressure on politicians.
There are some suggestions it will change though as schoolkids who have grown up with active shooter drills get old enough to vote and start asking why they did so.

I was reading about Texas and how lots of Californians are moving there for taxation reasons.

Flippantly mentioned to the wife that we should move there. She then reminded me of their relaxed attitude to firearms. It's an open carry culture.

That'd freak me out.

Yes guns seem to be so engrained in the culture that there is no way that’s ever going to change. Gun control is seen as a guaranteed way of losing an election.

I think the most positive thing to take from the US it to leave them be, rotting in their own culture; but to hold it up high on a pedestal for all to see as a warning that there be dragons going down that route.

didnthurt
Full Member
I was reading about Texas and how lots of Californians are moving there for taxation reasons.

When I was in Houston years back I remember seeing pictures of hands guns on the gates to peoples properties.

A bit like we might have "private, keep out" but far, far more to the point.

Yes, it's an odd state/ country regarding the love of guns. Many other things too, actually.

The trip made me realise that Britain is far, far more aligned to Europe in so many ways than it is to America. The shared language with America just hides the fact.

after every shooting tragedy the question’s asked about what would it take to see a change in US gun culture.

It will not happen in my lifetime.

The worst thing that could possibly happen, did happen, at Sandy Hook. If that didn't spark change, nothing will, IMO.

I can’t see it ever changing over there, not enough people want it to, not even close

Gun control actually polls very favourably- almost always in the majority. It's just that the NRA is an incredibly powerful lobbyist

I live in an open-carry area. It's something to see elderly men, barely able to walk, with a gun on their hips. At the grocery store. It's not just the NRA, the arms manufacturers, the Gun Owners of America, and other gun-related groups have donated millions to candidates from each party. The only way to change gun laws here is to change how the candidates' campaign funding is operated. And that's not going to happen. Corporate interests > lives of American children.

The worst thing that could possibly happen, did happen, at Sandy Hook. If that didn’t spark change, nothing will, IMO.

^That - if that wasn't the catalyst for change, what possibly could be? The US will have to continue to play with the cards with which it dealt itself.

Ever since then, my reaction to the next shooter event has just been a 'meh'.

Car have got much, much safer over the last 50 years. Guns have not changed so not surprised. In a way the number of people dying in car crashes is more of a problem to me.

Car have got much, much safer over the last 50 years. Guns have not changed so not surprised. In a way the number of people dying in car crashes is more of a problem to me

This.

Article says a lot. But not enough. More info on the geography and economics would help.

[edited out my long ramble]

NRA is a menace.

Glad we don’t have guns easily accessible here. Especially given the funeral director road rage thread.

I think it's difficult for us over here to understand the depths to which American's relationship to both their constitution and their relationship with weaponry go almost literally hand in hand. For lots of them, taking away their right to carry guns, means and end to them being American.

They've decided collectively that the endless death toll* is worth the price. Let them get on with it. The weird thing for me is that knowing what legalised weaponry looks like, they (and people tin this country for that matter) still persist with the idea that somehow the legalisation of recreational drugs is still worth campaigning for.

*because, despite that headline, gun deaths in america is mostly young black men, and as long as that persists, no one in the US - in power,  gives a shit.

NRA is a menace.

The NRA is broke, and no one is a member really anymore. I think they still pay the catchall bogie-man, but their influence is waning, and other organisations - some of them far right, but lots of them advocating for black Americans and left wing owners groups have taken over

I live in an open-carry area. It’s something to see elderly men, barely able to walk, with a gun on their hips. At the grocery store.

Do the open carry areas correlate with the areas where the gun violence is happening? Genuine question, not trolling.

The weird thing for me is that knowing what legalised weaponry looks like, they (and people tin this country for that matter) still persist with the idea that somehow the legalisation of recreational drugs is still worth campaigning for.

What does that have to do with anything?

Gun homicides and suicides are just a symptom of something bigger that won't solved just by legislation relating to guns. The only thing stricter controls and reduced ownership would address is accidental gun deaths. There are other countries with similarly high levels of ownership but much lower rates of violence.

What causes high rates of both suicide and homocide is an unjust and unfair society - taking guns out of the equaition just means those people would use different tools. That doesnt mean the US's gun laws aren't idiotic but it does mean the US really does have much, much bigger problems to solve and unfortunately arguing for or against guns just keeps really change off the agenda.

They’ve decided collectively that the endless death toll* is worth the price. Let them get on with it. The weird thing for me is that knowing what legalised weaponry looks like, they (and people tin this country for that matter) still persist with the idea that somehow the legalisation of recreational drugs is still worth campaigning for.

I'm totally confused. Can you show your working please...

What does that have to do with anything?

Because both are a societal harm. Replace the word gun with drugs, and it's the same argument.

Spent some time in Atlanta over the past few years and once managed to get tickets to the masters golf.
In a car with 3 other guys I was the only one not armed.

They all say that it is to protect themselves, families and property and I cannot ever see it changing.

It is quite something to go to a shooting range(if you have never been to one before) and see a sign saying 50cal for rent 50 $ per hour and 6$ per round.

Because both are a societal harm. Replace the word gun with drugs, and it’s the same argument.

Yes but by removing drugs from the black market you remove the organised crime element and associated the violence, not to mention the tax loss.

Also, I've yet to hear of someone being beaten to death with a nine bar.

What causes high rates of both suicide and homocide is an unjust and unfair society – taking guns out of the equaition just means those people would use different tools. That doesnt mean the US’s gun laws aren’t idiotic but it does mean the US really does have much, much bigger problems to solve and unfortunately arguing for or against guns just keeps really change off the agenda.

This. The guns and drugs are symptoms, not the problem.

The guns and drugs are symptoms, not the problem.

I was just about to post this. Other countries have lots of guns, often just as many, but nowhere the same gun deaths.

American society has serious problems and the love of and use of guns are just symptoms.

Watch some American TV and count how many times someone gets threatened one way or the other. Remember the Jetsons? Even in that silly show, Mr Spacely Sprockets is always throwing his weight around threatening to fire Jetson, and Jetson is always in fear of him. This is a representation of the power heirarchy. US society is frequently based on gaining power over others. Guns are part of that, as are MMA and bulking up in the gym etc.

The NRA and mostly Republican party like to foster the concept that owning a gun will stand you in good stead should the government become a dictatorship and try to suppress the people. And owning weapons mean the public can rise up and fight back.

As such,they truly believe these mass murders, and other random killings are a necessary evil.

Of course should the government ever become dictatorial, hand guns and a few rifles, semi automatic or otherwise are going the last seconds against the military.

 a few rifles, semi automatic or otherwise are going the last seconds against the military.

390 million might last a bit longer though!

Glad we don’t have guns easily accessible here. Especially given the funeral director road rage thread.

Yeah I'm glad I can take action against dangerous self entitlement without fear of being shot.

This. The guns and drugs are symptoms, not the problem.

They are, but treating the cause and the symptoms at the same time isn't unheard of.

I think the thing that's most concerning is the rise of the "Militias" in recent years. Those tubby lads with an AR15s and vests playing soldier outside various state assemblies, courthouses and whenever a BLM march was organised. Quite what their values are and why they feel the need for a visible show of militaristic force is always a simmering issue under the surface for many...

Kyle Rittenhouse's acquittal definitely sent a message, rules about carrying weapons across state lines, firing on and killing strangers don't apply so much if your skin is the right shade...

America's biggest problem is still wealth and race inequalities, it differs from state to state and community to community, but Americans acquire and carry firearms because they are (often legitimately) afraid of their fellow Americans.

This is the twisting of their "Right to bare arms" today, originally it was intended to help defend the nation against external threats (like us Brits) or to patch up the minimal justice system in the less populated areas of the frontier. Over time it's become about "defending" oneself against the perceived threat of someone a few doors down wanting to take all your stuff, or conversely law enforcement wanting to kill you simply because you aren't white enough. All fuelled by Fox news/Q/trumpism (take your pick).

Nobody's right or wrong, Americans growing mistrust/resentment of one another and their ever increasing social and financial division are real and there's no obvious willingness to address the core inequalities damaging their society. So the symptoms will persist.

The UK isn't actually so different, we have the same core problems, the wealth divide is growing yet we only seem to put top 5%ers in government, somehow believing that trickle down economics is a real thing. But our national response to events like Dunblane or Hungerford has resulted in guns being far harder to obtain and better controlled/monitored when they are (legally).
We still have plenty of knife crime and drug related problems, and the fundamental issue behind much of that is still wealth and attainment inequalities driven from the top.

But for a few events in our own history affecting our national attitude and laws relating to firearms, the UK could be in a very similar state today. I'm not sure we're in any position to judge really...

America’s biggest problem is still wealth and race inequalities

But racism is itself a symptom; black people are just another group over whom to assert power. Same as women, the poor, skinny nerds, and the rest. American society is fundamentally macho, dog-eat-dog to its core, so everyone's involved in a power game wether they like it or not. Guns just facilitate this, as do gyms and even jobs. People are fighting for status any way they can.

Don't get me wrong - there are lots of people not playing this game, but it's being played on everyone all the time.

It's the type of guns they are allowed which baffles me, why a member of the public needs a semi-automatic assault rifle or a .50cal sniper rifle is beyond me. And when you have nutters such as Ted Cruz, Lauren Boebert, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and the likes elected nothing will change.

Yes but by removing drugs from the black market you remove the organised crime element and associated the violence, not to mention the tax loss.

Here's the same argument; Yes but by removing guns from the black market you remove the organised crime element and associated the violence, not to mention the tax loss.

This is such a terrible story but sadly not wholly surprising. It is perhaps however more a product of child deaths being relatively rare more than it is that child deaths by gun are exceptionally high; my point being that you wouldn't need many child gun deaths for this statistic to become true.

I actually did some research into this subject (gun violence in the US) as I wanted to understand what was really going on.

I looked at rates of gun ownership around the world (firearms per 100 head of capita) and then looked up the data for those countries' rates of violent crime (one data point) and gun homicide (a separate data point). I then did regression analysis between the two to see if there was any relationship between either of those two data points and rates of gun ownership. It's a relatively facile analysis but interestingly the value of R was something like 0.01 (note I did this analysis for every country in the world so not a small data set).

However, when you replace rates of gun ownership with the Gini coefficient (the ratio of wealth between the top quartile and bottom quartile, i.e. a measure of wealth inequality) the value of R jumped up to something like 0.7.

The one thing that the analysis doesn't account for is that whilst there are plenty of other counties with very high levels of gun ownership, Switzerland and the nordics being good examples (which also have vanishingly low levels of both violent crime and gun homicide), the US is so far ahead in those rates (of gun ownership) that they are a complete outlier. there are 122 guns per 100 people in the US. The next closest is the Falklands (66) and the next large industrialised nation is Canada (33).

It's possible that it is relative abundance rather than actual gun ownership that is the problem. Certainly you cannot make the argument that guns in society leads to high levels of violent crime (and keep in mind that violent crime and homicide is a problem regardless of how it's perpetrated; the fact that most homicides are executed by gun in a country where guns are legal is not indicative of there being a gun problem per say, more a problem with violent crime).

Very clearly the real problem in the US and elsewhere is wealth inequality. That is what drives violent crime and that is the problem we should aim to avoid in the UK, though we are starting to lose that battle.

As for the child gun mortality rate, I wonder whether accidental deaths are the product of prevalence and thus prevalence drives carelessness; the more guns you have in your house, the more likely it is you will lose track of one and make it available for small hands to play with.

Part of the gun ownership is about hunting. It's not a sport for a few wealthy people as here, it's a cheap way to fill the freezer with meat for many in rural areas, and a lot of America is rural. So rifles account for a lot of the gun figures. I suspect that also goes a long way towards normalizing guns. Yes hand guns and concealed or open carry is different to hunting rifles but guns are a tool for them. The states have their own laws and I think the tougher rules tend to be in the urban states (but not all urban states have tougher laws).... Think... Not certain though.

Part of the gun ownership is about hunting. It’s not a sport for a few wealthy people as here, 

That will come as a shock to all the camo wearing shotgun toting yokels from the local estate round here.

Here’s the same argument; Yes but by removing guns from the black market you remove the organised crime element and associated the violence, not to mention the tax loss.

And it would be a shite argument given other people rarely get killed by drugs. But keep going if you think folk smoking a bit of weed is in any way comparable to walking around armed.

However, when you replace rates of gun ownership with the Gini coefficient (the ratio of wealth between the top quartile and bottom quartile, i.e. a measure of wealth inequality) the value of R jumped up to something like 0.7.

A very interesting experiment but is it correlation or causation? Might the right wing governments that promote inequality be voted for by people who like guns as an expression of power over others?

jon1973
Free Member

Yes guns seem to be so engrained in the culture that there is no way that’s ever going to change. Gun control measures are seen as a guaranteed way of losing an election.

Yup but it's one of those weird things... People are mostly in favour of not selling firearms to felons, age limits, restrictions on certain sorts of weapons, mental health controls, wait lists, registrations, permits to carry concealed... But you say "gun control" and they say "hell no". You can be in favour of a huge degree of gun control and still declare yourself to be against gun control.

It's a bit like how the affordable care act was massively more popular than obamacare.

Point of correction.. It was always called affordable care... The republicans coined the slang phrase 'Obama care' in order to make republicans less receptive to it.

A very interesting experiment but is it correlation or causation

It's correlation but, and my stats is extremely rusty, an R value of 0.7 ostensibly means 50% of all violent crime and homicide can be explained by wealth inequality. They are related and it's not hard to see where the causal factors lie; humans tend towards avarice and resentment of others especially around resources and access to them, which tends to provoke violence, in part, as a way of gaining access to those resources. Gang membership and the violence that goes with it is another example of the wealth inequality effect. When you have no other legitimate way of accessing social status, when those legitimate forms are not available to you, gang membership offers a substitute. There is a huge amount of status to be derived from gang membership, not to mention affiliation and access to strong male, and sometimes female, role models.

mattyfez
Free Member

Point of correction.. It was always called affordable care… The republicans coined the slang phrase ‘Obama care’ in order to make republicans less receptive to it.

Not correction at all- I guess I was unclear, the point was that you could ask the same people their opinion on the ACA and on obamacare and get different responses.

(similar to how in the UK, about half of all people who identify as christian don't believe in christ or god)

I see it's happened again

Supreme court busy elsewhere eroding women's right meanwhile the gun laws remain sacrosanct

And this guy posted his plans and manifesto up beforehand, including his intention to livestream
Great replacement consipiracy theory as legitimised by fox news

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61452958

Leave them to it. They want guns, that is the result.

"They" don't want guns.

Saying crap like that is highly offensive.

Before you jump down my throat I am not condoning this but think about several things. a) None of our bloody business. b) Balence number of deaths against number of people and it's only a problem for those families affected.c) As over here, it's somewhat silly and selfish to rant about firearms when you look at road deaths.
Motor vehicles should be looked at first.

As over here, it’s somewhat silly and selfish to rant about firearms when you look at road deaths.
Motor vehicles should be looked at first.

Cars have a purpose beyond killing people

Machine guns

Not so much

it’s somewhat silly and selfish to rant about firearms when you look at road deaths.
Motor vehicles should be looked at first.

I can't believe you'd be silly and selfish enough to bang on about road deaths when heart disease kills many times more people.

Saying crap like that is highly offensive.

Offensive to who? If "they" really didn't want guns "they" would have done something about it but the majority of "them" seem to want them and live with the negative consequences, day by day, week by week.

It is "their" culture which is why I suggested to leave "them" to it.

Heard about this on a podcast earlier. No charges for the shooter apparently. An absolute dump of a country

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/state/north-carolina/article261066462.html

If “they” really didn’t want guns “they” would have done something about it but the majority of “them” seem to want them

I believe most Americans don't own guns and most Americans support stricter gun controls. Which shouldn't be confused with the NRA's huge influence and the power of money in what is a deeply flawed democratic model.

If “they” really didn’t want guns “they” would have done something about it but the majority of “them” seem to want them

Off the top of my head, the number of guns to people in the US is about 1:1 but gun ownership is around 50%. Those that own a gun tend to own guns, it's not an even distribution.

"They" want / don't want guns in much the same way that "we" wanted brexit. The US has its problems but "America wants guns" is in reality a rash generalisation.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx

32%

b) Balence number of deaths against number of people and it’s only a problem for those families affected.

You actually ****ing what?

It's crazy and it's tragic, but it's an American problem and only America can change it, sadly.

f “they” really didn’t want guns “they” would have done something about it

There is no "they". The USA is highly polarised. Most people are largely normal, but they have to put up with gun wielding nutters occasionally shooting their children because of other people's fanatical opposition to gun control and other measures that might help improve society.

Thinking that a whole country is of one mind based on what you see in the media is xenophobia, and it's how wars start.

It’s crazy and it’s tragic, but it’s an American problem and only America can change it, sadly.

The problem isn't actually guns, it's society itself. Lots of other countries have lots of guns yet this rarely if ever happens. Now I'm not supporting the gun laws but I'm just warning that there's more to it than that. America has even deeper problems.

Fair point molgrips, it's much wider than some gun ownership.

Made me dig out this, if it works

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in what is a deeply flawed democratic model.

Yep, they all are. What are you going to do, shoot at it...

Gun homicides and suicides are just a symptom of something bigger that won’t solved just by legislation relating to guns. The only thing stricter controls and reduced ownership would address is accidental gun deaths

This isn't correct. There's a fair amount of anecdotal evidence from survivors that shows that easy access to guns is a big factor in suicide in the USA. It's the same logic that sees bridges have netting fixed to them - stop impetuous acts and it gives people time to calm down and reflect a bit more on that proposed course of action.

What are you going to do

Well I'm fairly limited in what I can do but I would start off by not letting my opinion of their flawed democracy, where money buys political power, influence whether I thought Americans deserve to live in peace and free from violence.

There’s a fair amount of anecdotal evidence from survivors that shows that easy access to guns is a big factor in suicide in the USA

Surely not as much of a problem as depression and other untreated mental illness?

There’s a fair amount of anecdotal evidence from survivors that shows that easy access to guns is a big factor in suicide in the USA

Surely not as much of a problem as depression and other untreated mental illness?

Motivation and method are separate issues. Yes, ideally it would be best to remove the underlying causes of suicidal impulses but even without addressing them means reduction saves lives by reducing the lethality of attempts.

Yup. Just consider the difference that paracetemol restrictions made- and that's purely an inconvenience of going around different shops to buy enough. Also it's pretty much accepted that many people fixate on method, for suicide, and if that method is unavailable then they may simply not do it. Not all of course.

Thanks for the link Ernie. I couldn't be bothered to look it up.

There’s a fair amount of anecdotal evidence from survivors that shows that easy access to guns is a big factor in suicide in the USA

Another top-of-my-head stat I can't be arsed to validate - I seem to recall that most shootings in the US are from the victim's own gun. Be that suicide, accident, domestic argument, having it taken off you by an assailant, etc etc.

my opinion of their flawed democracy, where money buys political power, influence

I'm thankful that that could never happen here.

You think the UK has a flawless democratic model? You might be disappointed.

Although luckily we don't quite yet have anything which approaches the NRA's ability to end political careers.

Which is all the more reason why the US shouldn't be offered as a democratic model to aspire to.

Um...

The gun control issue (like the healthcare issue) is just another indicator of the dysfunctional political system in America, and the growing "culture wars" phenomenon.

The GoP (mostly, but not only) have figured out that stoking fear, outrage and division is a far easier way of getting elected, than actually trying to govern well. It's even easier now that they've figured-out that they don't really need to try that hard..... you can twist the facts outrageously (or just flat-out lie) and huge swathes of the media will endorse whatever you've said, and so people will still support you.
Even when you are in power, you can behave outrageously - but the strength of this culture-war stuff is such that you can remain in power.

Gun control is an illustration of quite how far you can go with this approach:

America already has gun control. There are a bunch of measures already in place controlling who has access to what firearm. The overwhelming majority of Americans support more gun control. However, despite daily mass shootings, school massacres etc - it just seems to be not politically possible to deliver what the majority of Americans want. The right and their enablers have managed to convince people that closing gun control loopholes is SO terrible, that people are willing to put up with regular school shootings to avoid it.

The whole thing is completely **** ed. The political system in the US has now been subverted sufficiently that it can't even fix itself, so things are only going to go in one direction.

I’m thankful that that could never happen here.

Exactly, if gun manufacturers and associations thought they could get a gun law through and sell guns and arms then they would soon be giving money to the Tory party, getting press behind it and so on.

The different is the UK does not have an ingrained gun culture where guns are seen as a right and a last resort to take control when everything deteriorates to a point when needed to defend yourself.

Which is why I said let them get on with it.

but it’s an American problem

Lots of other countries have lots of guns yet this rarely if ever happens

Hear this a lot. Compared to most other European countries the murder rate in Switzerland (lots of home gun ownership) isn't that different to most other western European countries. But look at bit deeper and most homicide there has a gun somewhere in it. Give people access to guns and they'll use them.

The GoP (mostly, but not only) have figured out that stoking fear, outrage and division is a far easier way of getting elected, than actually trying to govern well. It’s even easier now that they’ve figured-out that they don’t really need to try that hard….. you can twist the facts outrageously (or just flat-out lie) and huge swathes of the media will endorse whatever you’ve said, and so people will still support you.

Stochastic terrorism.
Say enough shit in the media to demonise an outgroup and someone reading that, listening to it on Fox News etc will do it.

Tell your audience to kill / to storm the Capitol building and someone will do it. Then you can sit back and act all surprised that someone took your "metaphor" seriously. The worst aspects of the media will even portray the assailant as some sort of victim.

Also willing to bet that if the gunman had been black, he'd have been shot dead the second he walked out of the store. White guy? Just a simple arrest will do...

this, and lack of socialized healthcare, and a range of other "wtf" factors raises serious questions about their inclusion on the "first world countries" list imo.

Which is why I said let them get on with it.

Just to let you know, 'them' includes my wife's family.

I said before, and I think it was also said earlier in this thread. If they wouldn't/couldn't change laws and attitudes after Sandy Hook then they never will. Debate is futile.

Again

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2022/may/24/texas-elementary-school-shooting-uvalde-latest

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/

The most interesting thing for me is that there is a majority in favour of more gun control. I seems corrupt to me that this does translate into laws being passed in their government

seems corrupt to me that this does translate into laws being passed in their government

Don’t underestimate the power and control/money that lobbying interests have over the entire governments ability to pass laws