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Nobody is going to invade this country.
True, it's not going to be a person, it will be A.I. launching waves of drone attacks to wipe out mankind, not sure my knees will handle stepping up to be a real life John Conner.
Doesn't take much training to dig defences or stand on guard at a depo a long way from the front and doing so frees up the better trained units for front line work.
That would be the logic, whether or not it actually works like that in practise is another matter.
Nobody is going to invade this country.
Look at Sweden, and lesser extent Finland. For years now, their stance has been we're neutral (to a given value) but also armed to the teeth. Invasion would be so costly that no-one would look at it as a prospect and say "Yeah, let's go for it" Putin's invasion of Ukraine has radically changed the way they think about their defence to the point that they're willing to forgo their neutrality for mutual support and throw away decades of foundational defence policy. They think that actually, invasion is a reality that they should probably have some plans for...
I think the point that the CGS is making is that if the UK was geographically where Ukraine is, and we had the same defence policy we have now, we run out of bullets on about day 6 after invasion, and is that a safe stance to take in a world that's becoming increasingly unstable? Given that we couldn't manage Covid, should we in fact learn the lesson?
@Kryton57 point that established powers have always in history eventually gone to war with the next emerging power should at the very least suggest that we should probably look again at the policy that's dominated for the last 10-15 years of globalisation and 'peace dividend' that our current crop of politicians have grown up in, and instead, revert back to "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst"
The main question we should be asking is are our tanks carbon neutral yet
I'm 50 and living in another country. Despite prior service, if they want to try and call me back, they will have a hard time.
I think it unlikely that the UK will be invading anywhere in the strengths where it needs 250,000 troops and any action that requires conscription is going to be a long haul. People don't just magically become useful troops overnight and are not going to be doing anything technical within the first six months or a year. Giving some sort of benefit to doing training that will help the population (emergency medical, rescue/recovery, etc) would be a lot more beneficial and could free up the Army from being the service of choice to replace the fire brigade, ambulances or Police every time they need more people.
If Sanders is talking about the Army being undermanned, he's right. Poor pay, continuous ops and (IMHO) a feeling of always getting the shit part of the stick has knocked retention and Capita have mightily fsxked recruitment. The navy have the nukes and the carriers and the RAF have new planes. The army have new boots and an A3 version of the L85.
does anyone know in which other countries it seems to work well?
I lived in Egypt for a few years back in the 90s, and there were a couple of arguments in favour of conscription/national service: it gave the rural population more opportunities, and it guaranteed literacy amongst the male population. But neither of those advantages seem particularly applicable to any European country.
I happily served in Kosovo then my old mob fired the first shots of the Iraq War, i was a younger man with a younger mans head on my shoulders then
A large issue at the moment is the "drain" of experience, as our forces decrease in size and many of the most experienced officers and NCO's leave, there is a lack of experience there to be able to train and bring new people forwards if there was the need for rapid expansion, same is happening in the NHS, there is no replacing good experience, and that only comes with time served.
I miss it, and I now work in insurance, so **** me i could do with the excitement, but i'm not sure they'd want my 48 year old diabetic body held together with metal pins and string back to be honest... although I would be the first to volunteer for a training role if i thought it was just.
Would the people calling for war be fighting alongside me?
No so no.
Interesting question. I've been wondering at the pitiful size of our armed forces, and wondering if there is a policy shift towards what is basically rearmament, given the equipment and spending on Ukraine - strategic stockpiles must be very low, and that worries me. I think as a nation we're fairly isolated from the prevailing feelings in countries in Eastern EU who are rightly rattled and pursuing new defence priorities. I see a benefit in some form of basic training and service. I spent some time in Finland about 15 years ago, and totally understand their pivot to NATO, and how they are actually in a good position regarding defence readiness and military size in comparison to population. That also includes actually having a civil defence infrastructure - imagine that!
Despite this country being a basket case, and despite my being 43 with no useful background, i'd do a duty if asked. I'd expect it to be in the dad's army, but I guess that's the point, to free up fighting personnel for where it's needed, and not having fully trained 21 year old guarding a fence in the English countryside.
We appear to have established that most of us are only suitable for "Dads Army" but which of the characters on here are best placed to be which character from the programme?
I'm claiming Private Godfrey<br />"a retired shop assistant who had worked at the Army & Navy Store in London. He lives in Walmington with his elderly sisters and serves as the platoon's medical orderly. He has a weak bladder and often needs to "be excused". A conscientious objector during the First World War,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dad%27s_Army#Characters
Arnold Ridley's story is heartbreaking. Playwright and actor taken advantage of by people in the industry. Never got his dues. Was financially on his knees when Dad's Army came along and kept him afloat. The rest of the cast knew he was performing in a role that didn't make any real use of his skills... his performances were spot on though. And then there's his experiences in both wars... let's hope few to none of us go through what he and so many others did... twice.
Exam question time ..
in 2 years time the uk is run by a unfathomably despicable leader, playing to the populist right to cement their grip on power. Media is controlled by a few with vested interests. Corruption is rife, with politicians lining their own pockets at the expense of the masses. Civil liberties have been eroded. Living standards have dropped and many of the population live in fear or oppression and starvation. What has occurred?
Answer A - Putin has succeeded in taking over the UK
Answer B - the Tory government won a successful 2024 election under the leadership of Suella braverman
I suspect Binners may be ARP Warden Hodges
the platoon's major rival and nemesis. He calls Mainwaring "Napoleon". Mainwaring looks down on him as the local greengrocer and dislikes that Hodges saw active service in the First World War. As an Air Raid Precautions (ARP) warden, he is always demanding that people "Put that light out!". He often calls the platoon "Ruddy hooligans!"
🙂
Absolutely and categorically no, but I’d join a revolution.
Exam question time
Interesting tpbiker, there’s probably a C, D and E as well. See my answer above.
Would the people calling for war be fighting alongside me?
No so no.
You that fasten that trigger, for other to fire.
Who sit back and watch as the death count gets higher
Exam question time ..
in 2 years time the uk is run by a unfathomably despicable leader, playing to the populist right to cement their grip on power. Media is controlled by a few with vested interests. Corruption is rife, with politicians lining their own pockets at the expense of the masses. Civil liberties have been eroded. Living standards have dropped and many of the population live in fear or oppression and starvation. What has occurred?
Answer A – Putin has succeeded in taking over the UK
Answer B – the Tory government won a successful 2024 election under the leadership of Suella braverman
Or; Answer C - Labour have got in and nothing has fundamentally changed.
This thread has got me thinking about my wife's nephew, who is currently somewhere in Gaza, supporting front line troops as a reservist. So essentially being complicit in genocide. But it's easy to look at it from our cosy distant perspective. He and all other young Jewish people in Israel have had militarism drummed into them from birth. So he won't ever see it as genocide, but as his duty to help protect his nation and people, including his own family. Likewise, many young Russian conscripts will be thinking the same. Propaganda is a very powerful tool; see Nazi Germany. The difference here is that liberalism has created a situation where most of us have a much broader and more objective perspective on things.
This idiot army person who's made this absurd suggestion is a prime example of why such people should never be allowed anywhere near any such position of power. General Sanders would serve society far better working in a fast food outlet. Have him fighting Salmonella rather than human beings.
Russia have been fighting a poorly armed opponent for a year and managed to occupy a small sliver of that country. I don't see them showing up on the beaches of Dover any time soon, so my services are unlikely to be called upon. Luckily for all. But if and when it does happen, if someone thinks I'm going to be risking my life so that Rishi Sunak can keep his jewel-encrusted sliders, they can think again.
I think conscription is suggested because we might be at war in the future, nobody expects that to take the form of an invasion of the UK - who would want to? But yes, as part of a NATO alliance somewhere in Europe or hopefully not middle east. Europe has some centuries of historical president as the location for defending our sense of sovereignty.
This thread reminds me I should have joined the foreign legion in my youth, then I could ignore Brexit & go and live in France.
The trouble is, it is not a question of numbers, clearly Russia has the numbers, as it did in WW2, but those numbers are no good if they lack motivation, training and decent kit.
As i said above, we can recruit another 20,000 squaddies, but having watched many experienced officers and NCO's walk away, how are they going to be trained to a decent level?
In the same way, the NHS needs staff now, but even they recruit 100 doctors today, those doctors are not going to be on the "front line" well trained and qualified for another 7-10 years.
Our armed forces, as have most countries, have always grown at times of perceived and actual threat, and reduced in "peacetime", but you have to keep a well trained, well armed and knowledgeable core, and that is diminishing.
This thread reminds me I should have joined the foreign legion in my youth,
It's a great way to learn how to speak French.
"I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you just said" doesn't quite get the response that some might hope for.
As i said above, we can recruit another 20,000 squaddies, but having watched many experienced officers and NCO’s walk away, how are they going to be trained to a decent level?
When I walked out the door of my sub-unit for the final time, I was the last remaining NCO with operational experience.
When I walked out the door of my sub-unit for the final time, I was the last remaining NCO with operational experience.
Perfect example, my old mob was 7 Para RHA, whole point of forming 16 Air Assault was for a highly mobile brigade, partly due to the slow response to get troops on the ground in conflicts such as the Falklands, yet currently they are having to do a lot of training in the US as we don't have facilities, Hercules have been scrapped and currently the Airbus A400 is not up to the job, and I can count on one hand the number of NCO's that have op. experience.
For discussion purposes assume I'm of fighting age (very much not).The whole point of conscription is that your conscripted. When push comes to shove unless your have an exemption you serve or go to prison. Just with that choice I doubt I'd choose prison. Realistically in this day and age regardless of government conscription would only happen if there was a credible threat to the UK itself. Then you wouldn't be fighting for "government interests" but your family, friends, community,your way of life and your home. As a young man it would have been a no brainer for me.
Sent straight to the frontline, call ups should be first and foremost for the following in this order:
- All Tory party members.
- Tory voters past and present. They deserve far worse, but I'm feeling generous today.
- The Royal Family.
- The Royal Family flag wavers.
- Just stop oil protestors.
- Ant & Dec.
- Mark Drakeford.
- Philip Schofield.
- People who still wear masks.
- Any young person spotted standing in a public place with their hands down the front of their trackies.
- Men who wear shorts in winter trying to look hard. You don't.
- Men who wear skin tight jeans/trousers.
- Women who have had their 'lips done' Leslie Ash style.
- Jonathan Ross.
- Roadies. **** em. No one likes them anyway.
- Tony Blair.
- Cliff Richard.
- Aerosmith.
- The writers and cast of Mrs Browns Boys.
- The people who watch Mrs Browns Boys and tell people its funny.
- Richard Madeley.
- Piers Morgan.
I could go on all day but I've things to do.
Since the events of Ukraine, my fears of invasion by the Ruskies have dramatically dropped, not increased.
Probably. Not sure I’d make a good soldier though due to a tendency to question decisions I don’t agree with.
Just with that choice I doubt I’d choose prison.
I would. Killing a stranger for no other reason than our leaders telling us they're the enemy is something of a red line. I would only kill someone if they were in front of me threatening myself or my family/friends and it was us or them. Seems to me the best way of avoiding this scenario is not going to war.
Just stop oil protestors.
I’d replace this with the senior board members of all oil companies.
Aerosmith.
err..American and also covered by men in skintight pants and possibly ladies with their lips done.
Probably. Not sure I’d make a good soldier though due to a tendency to question decisions I don’t agree with.
What makes you think that isn't a strength?
+1 mredd
If the EU invaded, I would roll over and say yes please but anything like the Ukrainian situation and there aren't any romantic options available.
Might try and sneak out a back door but don't think I would choose prison.
What makes you think that isn’t a strength?
IME (as a conscript) the only purpose of pointless and endless discipline was to condition you to follow orders without thinking. An elaborate version of the "Simon Says" game.
And the more pointless and stupid the order the more effective it is long-term in robbing you of your ability to think for yourself.
FFS the French armed forces have three different "ATTENTION!" when an officer/NCO enters a room....."Garde a vous!" if it's an NCO, "Fixe!" if it's an officer, and "A vos ranges, fixe!" if it's a general.
Wtf is the point of all that bollocks, other than to make you their bitch?
Just stop oil protestors.
I’d replace this with the senior board members of all oil companies.
I'd replace it with them and also with climate change deniers who haven't worked out what JSO are talking about.
was to condition you to follow orders without thinking.
No wonder the French are cheese eating surrender monkeys. The point of military discipline is to make you able to carry out (or recognise when not to) under duress, Doing things "the right way" when not in those sorts of conditions makes it easier to do them at the frontline. The military - western democracies anyway have no need for unthinking automatons,
Sent straight to the frontline, call ups should be first and foremost for the following in this order:
Can we add anyone who gets any driving penalty? Two birds with one stone and all.
No wonder the French are cheese eating surrender monkeys.
Kicked your arse in 1066. And that was by just one French province!
The point of military discipline is to make you able to carry out (or recognise when not to) under duress,
To be fair one of the things which was emphasised/drummed in, was how it was prohibited to carry out a war crime even if ordered to do so.
Not entirely surprising for a country which experienced Nazi occupation.
Kicked your arse in 1066. And that was by just one French province!
And I thought the English were bad for banging on about 1966 😁
"The trouble is, it is not a question of numbers, clearly Russia has the numbers, as it did in WW2"
I thought similar but, on checking, discovered that Russia's population is approximately 145 million which for the size of the country seems very small.
Assuming that Poland (41M) and Germany (83M) are on our side (UK 67M) we would have superior numbers even without counting Ukraine (36M) and NATO members. Russia would be badly outnumbered in population terms but may be willing to expend lives more recklessly than those it would be fighting against.
Kicked your arse in 1066. And that was by just one French province!
My family were on the winning side of that particular rumble.
Maybe he knows something we don't...
Kicked your arse in 1066. And that was by just one French province!
Just to prove soldiers can think, wasn't Normandy the land given to be viking marauders to appease them, and keep them from ransacking Paris? Norman, being a derivation of Norseman, so strictly they were of the good scandinavian stock that had been kicking our arse in previous centuries already.. .and not your normal french stock?
On of those derivations of a word that shows its history, like Pennsylvania Dutch actually being german, Dutch being a derivation of Deutsch?
Kicked your arse in 1066. And that was by just one French province!
*Dons pedant hat*
The Normans weren't French, they were the recent descendents of Viking raiders who were given the land to stop them from sacking the rest of France very 5 minutes.
Hence 'Normandy' or 'land of the North Men'
You're thinking of the Franks, who were further south at that time and ended up forming what we now know as France.
Edit: Scud got there first!
Nah, the reason they did so well was because they fully embraced French culture - second generation Normans were speaking fluent French and had abandoned their northern pagan ways.
Edit: The Brits did quite well too after the Normans brought over French culture with them. A bit of gratitude would be nice.
On an aside, I suspect a fascinating correlation between support for mandatory service and opposition to mandatory vaccination.
The Brits did quite well too after the Normans brought over French culture with them.
"the brits?" Nah, the French who still rule us. As the sixth Duke of Westminster said, when asked how to get rich, his top piece of advice was “to have an ancestor who was good friends with William the Conqueror”.
I would only kill someone if they were in front of me threatening myself or my family/friends and it was us or them.
okay. But how about bludgeoning someone into hopelessness and submission via endless repetitive argument?
I have no idea about warfare, but as others have alluded to, I suspect the average uk soldier is going to be far more effective in a combat situation than your average civilian who’s been called up to ‘do their bit’ with a couple of months training. To think otherwise is a bit of a disservice to professional soldiers in the forces
therefore, unless the plan would be for Joe public to sit behind the front lines in some kind of logistics role, I suspect they would be at best utterly ineffective, and at worst, cannon fodder..
Thing may be different if the pesky ruskies were outside in the street raping my female neighbors, as I’d probably be slightly more motivated to take some pot shots at them from behind the sanctuary of my curtains..
On an aside, I suspect a fascinating correlation between support for mandatory service and opposition to mandatory vaccination.
And probably having your own flag pole outside your own house, as they say they difference patriotism and nationalism, patriotism is love for your country comes first , nationalism is hating everyone else's country first.
I suspect the average uk soldier is going to be far more effective in a combat situation than your average civilian who’s been called up to ‘do their bit’ with a couple of months training.
Except that your average 18 year old is often fitter and quicker than your average 31 year old (AV age UK army). Also more likely to take risks without thinking too much about the consequences, which can be both a good and bad thing.
Also more likely to take risks without thinking too much about the consequences, which can be both a good and bad thing.
Bollocks.
I have no idea about warfare
Have a punt mate, it's not like having no clue has prevented hot takes on here before. 😉
Bollocks.
I take it you were just as sensible when you were 18 as you were when you were 31. I can't say the same and nor I suspect can most people.
Which is one of the reasons why car insurance is often a lot dearer for a teenager than a person in their 30s. Although this affects boys rather more than girls.
Why would anyone want to invade the UK anyway?
What's in it for them? Fish and chips and warm beer maybe?
I take it you were just as sensible when you were 18 as you were when you were 31. I can’t say the same and nor I suspect can most people.
Which is one of the reasons why car insurance is often a lot dearer for a teenager than a person in their 30s. Although this affects boys rather more than girls.
Still talking bollocks, have you led a section or platoon or soldiers? Do you have any real experience or is waffling bollocks about car insurance the length and breadth of it?
I know you can't help but pitch into every remotely political convo like you're an expert, but maybe you should try. Or maybe you could ask questions instead of offering your opinion, you never know, you might even learn something.
Except that your average 18 year old is often fitter and quicker than your average 31 year old (AV age UK army).
Probably come in handy as they start looting the local shopping emporiums as the Ruskies attack our shores
The Singletrack Battalion
Obsolete tech at the front or rear of the Battalion - asking for a friend
Absolutely not.
Knackered back, hip and shoulder puts me out before I even get to the mess my head is in.
Still talking bollocks, have you led a section or platoon or soldiers?
Wow! I am not talking about 'leading a section or platoon or soldiers'. I am talking about the widely accepted fact that teenage boys take risks which they are less likely to replicate a couple of decades later.
I doubt that joining the army changes that widely accepted biological fact
In the same way as they are likely to be a little less fit and with slower reaction times in their thirties compared to their teenage years.
But hey, dismiss it as bollocks as you are obviously the expert on the biological development of men.
And well done for somehow twisting politics into this. 🙄
Edit: Btw this was perfectly good humoured and light-hearted thread, until the usual angry punter wades in.
With a toxic environment like that no wonder the first page of this forum often now has posts two or three days old.
You're already conscripted @Drac. We need your clothes, your boots and your iPad.
Also you're a paramedic, you can coordinate the field hospital.
The Singletrack Battalion
The 102nd Chairbourne Division Keyboard Commandos ?
Conscription with Capita doing the processing, it'd be amazing. Waiting lists before basic training are now 173 years long, we're conscripting your sperm and keeping it in a fridge for when spaces open up. But it's YOUNG PEOPLE'S FAULT
Edit: Btw this was perfectly good humoured and light-hearted thread, until the usual angry punter wades in.
I simply don't like you. Just so we're clear.
Good back pedal though, you should consider bike gymkhana.
Conscription with Capita doing the processing, it’d be amazing. Waiting lists before basic training are now 173 years long, we’re conscripting your sperm and keeping it in a fridge for when spaces open up. But it’s YOUNG PEOPLE’S FAULT
Talking about this with a friend last night, the ways it would be a violent and slow moving car crash would reach new heights.
Had a cold when you were 3? Unfit.
The reality with Crapita is they'd probably end up clearing everyone who's commented with their various ailments and reject perfectly fit and healthy candidates.
Reddit is full of stories of how bad it is, applicants aging out as the process is broken, medical rejections with no basis, and on and on.
Tbh if it really came down to it, and the ruskies were at our door, far better use of the STW forum users would be to send in our best negotiator to try to convince Vlad of the error of his ways. Wrapping him up for 12 months with counter arguments and pointless whataboutary will buy the nation valuable time to shore up its defenses
tbh he’d probably just get bored and go back to Moscow shaking his head in frustration..
if I get to drive a challenger drone from my desk, might consider it.
I take it you were just as sensible when you were 18 as you were when you were 31.
I was, I was born sensible 😊
Edit: Btw this was perfectly good humoured and light-hearted thread, until the usual angry punter wades in.
I simply don’t like you. Just so we’re clear.
Good back pedal though, you should consider bike gymkhan.
So you don't think that the references to Dad's Army and 1066, for example, were perfectly good humoured and light-hearted?
It's not just me, apparently, based on your constant outbursts of anger against anyone who offends you.
And just to be clear I don't post on here to be 'liked' by you, you're bully, so it suits me fine.
Btw it's not just you, it's part of the stw culture - anger and sometimes staggering levels of intolerance. It creates a toxic and poisonous environment in which people feel that they are threading on eggshells.
Anyway I don't suppose anything will change, only the concentration of angry intolerant punters.
It’s not just me, apparently, based on your constant outbursts of anger against anyone who offends you.
Offence? Chap, it takes more than the likes of you or others on this forum to offend me. I just think you and a couple of others spout crap constantly, take pleasure in trying to annoy people and then relish crying about it after.
As for 'constant', hyperbole much? But that is kinda your forte so have come to accept nothing less.
I'll reflect on my delivery to others for sure, and if the moderate, decent posters I've offended want to make themselves know I'll offer them my sincere apologies.
Anyway I don’t suppose anything will change, only the concentration of angry intolerant punters.
Often matched by the vexatious posts of an angry man who dances in a spiral trying to get the upper hand in nearly every thread
As the sixth Duke of Westminster said, when asked how to get rich, his top piece of advice was “to have an ancestor who was good friends with William the Conqueror”.
Which does sound better than the truth. Whilst they can trace their ancestors back to norman invaders given the minor lands granted they werent exactly mates with William.
The majority of their wealth comes from the Audleys who brought up a ton of what became London. Their history is somewhat more obscure with the wealth being gathered by one of them being both a moneylender and someone who looks to have heavily abused his position as a clerk of the court of wards and liveries which gave a lot of opportunity for making money.