You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
We are looking at buying a new to us estate load carrier in the next few months - something like a 3 year old and Octavia/Passat/V70 type thing.
After diesel gate a few years ago, my instinct is to go for petrol, but the offering of these cars in a petrol variant is severely limited compared to diesel. I want this car to last as long as possible, preferably 10 years 'til I can replace it with a nice long range electric / hydrogen / nuclear / whatever-green-tech-comes next car.
Question being, would you buy a diesel car today? Is there potential for them to phased off the roads / banned from cities quicker than petrol? The sleezy car salesmen all claim that as I'm looking at euro6 type engines which are as clean as they come, there should be no additional issue...
Thanks
Yes
Yes.
I'd maybe consider changing it in less than 10 years though
No. In a similar boat last year when our diesel zafira died. Went for a petrol Touran. Pence per mile, they're doing about the same.
No, but only because we bought a Euro 6 diesel estate just six months ago. 🙂 Our mindset was the same as yours, fingers crossed it'll be a few years before they're legislated off the roads.
No, I'd buy another Diesel van. 😉
Seriously though, I don't drive everyday and my van is only really used for weekends away or rare occasions we need the space. If you haven't got many inner city drop-offs planned then why not?
I have no plans to drive through Central London/Manchester/etc. If the need arose then I'd take the congestion charge in the chin as a one-off.
No. I'd have banned them years ago just for the racket they make 😉
When I was last buying a car I decided it was best to either go for a cheaper diesel car, so if they are suddenly worth nothing it's less painful. Or go for a more expensive petrol car that I'd keep for longer. Personally I wouldn't want to buy an 'expensive' diesel car that I couldn't stomach being priced off the road in 5 years time and worth zero in 7 years.
In the end, the price/condition/value of cheaper used diesel cars is really bad at the moment, some commanding double the price they should do. So I decided to go for petrol.
Bought a new to us petrol car 3 months ago & I'm already missing the torque, economy & distance between fill ups of a diesel, with a relatively modern diesel and keeping it for 10yrs you'll be alright.
Yes. Bought 2 last year, but only cos the first one had a tendency to destroy engines, and because we tow a caravan. I would love to go greener, however, cost is prohibitive for me along with lack of tug capability. One day we'll get to go electric.
If you don't go into LEZs often then yes
We're not all going to be driving electric cars any time soon. There will be millions upon millions of current cars on the road in 5, 10 years from now
I bought a relatively new Octavia (diesel) about a year ago 8 months old with 3500 miles quite a good spec SEL for £16500, did have a look at a volvo at twice the price (brand new and top spec) but worked on the assumption I would get 10 years and if it was worth nothing then it has cost £1650 per year in depreciation which I was happy to live with. It also depends where you stay and what the likeliehood of charges (congestion) are in your immediate area.
Off topic, but:
I have no plans to drive through Central London/Manchester/etc
The GM congestion charge is not ‘central Manchester’ but the entirety of greater Manchester, taking in all ten boroughs. It’s a huge a area, nigh on 1300km2 stretching from Marsden Moor in the east to the M58 interchange in the west. Thankfully motorways are excluded but stray off and it’s the full charge. I’m not saying this is a bad thing but I think there’s a real misunderstanding across the region about the extent of the proposals.
To the OP: you’ll be reet with the diesel.
I've a 'quality' 3 y/o diesel car, currently at 50k (it'd be nearer 90k without Covid).
I'm looking at retirement in a year or so and therefore intend to run it through to 150k (so another 6-8 years) and then change it to an electric car.
If I wasn't looking at retirement (and my more usual 20-25k pa), I'd get another diesel with the intention of an electric car in 4-5 years.
Euro6 is safe for now in London ULEZ and similar elsewhere, but who knows how long for. There's already diesel surcharges on parking in some London boroughs, an idea that could catch on. These are mostly just financial penalties though, if your visits to cities are occasional then you can just budget for paying them.
What would be more of a concern is all the pollution control measures that diesels need to achieve Euro6 - DPFs, Adblue, etc. Lots to go wrong, and more prone to it if they're used for shorter trips. Unless you're doing 25k+ a year pounding the motorways I'd go petrol any day. All the cars you list have plenty of used petrols available.
Yes. Primarily because, as you say, petrol engine options are limited for that kind of car. When my previous 320d touring finally died I replaced it with a then 4 year old A6 Allroad - 3 litre V6, air suspension, bells and whistles, totally overkill for what I need but it is a lovely drive and will last me 10 years. I don't drive into city centres much.
With the LEZ's that's the unknown - we live outside the Edinburgh city bypass so unlikely to be affected day to day by the proposed LEZ, however we have family inside the city and my wife's school may well end up in it if/when the the scheme expands past it's current scope...
- I should add - my wife wouldn't be driving to/from school regularly but not having the ability too when needed, could/would cause issue on the odd occasion where it would be needed.
I’ve said that I won’t buy another when my current Diesel estate needs replacing, but I hope that’s still 3 or 4 years away at least. It doesn’t get used much these days as most of my miles are done in an EV or our diesel camper.
Picked up a 2015 Passat diesel estate 2 years ago and would do the same today, lovely car, does what I picked it up for! Helps I'm SW based so not many zones around but it is euro 6 and £20 year road tax too
Yes provided that...it won't be used mainly for short journeys and you take account of LEZ implications.
Got rid of my Octavia estate just over a year ago as my driving had changed to the point that I wasn't doing the long journeys required for the dpf to do it's thing. Got a Passat GTE. Full go mode is more powerful in both torque and hp than the remapped 2.0tdi in the Skoda. Don't miss the diesel torque. A smaller petrol with equivalent mpg as a 2.0tdi is lacking in low end for a large car in my opinion. But the 2.0 petrol engines can be surprisingly frugal if you are gentle.
Would you buy a Diesel Estate car today?
No - noisy polluting things that there are viable alternatives to for me.
The key words are viable and to me .
If I was regularly doing 200+ mile journeys then the lack of charging infrastructure would probably see me get a petrol. Otherwise it's leccy all the way.
Does very much depend on what your personal situation is though.
Depends on what kind of driving you would be doing most of the time, there's still a place for diesels.
Yes, need something big to lug kids and all their belongings to university around the country for the next 5-6 years at least, still got MiL to visit in the care home 200 miles away...while we are doing big motorway miles regularly a diesel makes sense.
We have a small petrol car for local stuff.
Would you buy a Diesel Estate car today?
No – noisy polluting things that there are viable alternatives to for me.The key words are viable and to me .
If I was regularly doing 200+ mile journeys then the lack of charging infrastructure would probably see me get a petrol. Otherwise it’s leccy all the way.
Does very much depend on what your personal situation is though.
I’d love an electric car - but it will hopefully spend 4 days a week on the drive with the weekends being spent carrying family, dogs and toys up and down A roads to Oban/Aviemore/Breamar areas. As yet electric tech won’t do that return journey easily with bikes/canoes/Skis on the roof…
There will be millions upon millions of current cars on the road in 5, 10 years from now
20 years plus, what car can people on low incomes afford?
Mobility will become the next issue in affordability once new ICE cars are banned
Don't expect 20 yo Tesla's to be supported by the manufacturer
No.
I bought a euro 6 diesel 3 years ago. It's been massively better on fuel that a petrol would have been over 30,000 miles.
It had a £3000 bill related to the diesel bits of the engine. It was covered as a recall eventually. This bit is the bit that would put me off another newish diesel.
Personally yes because it fits my situation with also owning a family petrol car. Although I'm currently looking for a diesel van.
I’d love an electric car – but it will hopefully spend 4 days a week on the drive with the weekends being spent carrying family, dogs and toys up and down A roads to Oban/Aviemore/Breamar areas. As yet electric tech won’t do that return journey easily with bikes/canoes/Skis on the roof…
That's pretty much how I use mine - except for the dog. I have a tow bar bike rack and roof rails.
20 years plus, what car can people on low incomes afford?
Mobility will become the next issue in affordability once new ICE cars are banned
This.
It's not just low incomes either. Most folk just aren't going to prioritize the cost of a new electric vehicle over other things in their lives.
That’s pretty much how I use mine – except for the dog. I have a tow bar bike rack and roof rails.
Ok consider my interest piqued!
What car do you have / what mileage can you get from a full charge? Does that range differ between summer & winter?
Yes because in the real world there is no other choice. Hybrids and full electric are simply not good enough yet. They don’t yet have the range and speed of charging to be practical for anything more than a city run around
With the back-drop of spiralling energy costs, are EV's still desirable?
Until they offer a Diesel scrappage scheme there's still going to be huge demand for them based on the fact that most of them will still do way more to the gallon than a petrol car, despite the other costs.
I bought one 6 months ago.
I think a 3 year old VAG car is too new to be affected by dieselgate - this was for pre-SCR engines I think. Some SCR engines are so good that they emit almost no NOx, and as such are better than many petrol cars. ADAC did a real world test on this.
Hybrids and full electric are simply not good enough yet. They don’t yet have the range and speed of charging to be practical for anything more than a city run around
Whilst I agree that EVs are not good enough for every situation (e.g. no driveway, towing) not to mention the very high cost; they are clearly plenty good enough for most usages beyond being a city run around. What world do you live in where a 250+ mile range with a 20 minute charge up is impractical? You really cannot factor in a 20 minute break in four hours of driving?
For your Highland trips the current cars are fine, what you need is a big charging hub in Braemar, Oban, Aviemore etc.
With the back-drop of spiralling energy costs, are EV’s still desirable?
Have you seen the price of petrol and diesel lately? The price of that stuff is only going one way.
I would love to go greener, however, cost is prohibitive for me along with lack of tug capability.
You can tow with various EVs. The Ioniq 5 is probably the cheapest one that can pull 1600kg, however you have to put up with probably half the range, maybe a little more. Personally I would still go for it if I could afford it, I'd make my holidays work with it especially as that car has a really fast recharge.
You can tow with various EVs. The Ioniq 5 is probably the cheapest one that can pull 1600kg, however you have to put up with probably half the range, maybe a little more. Personally I would still go for it if I could afford it, I’d make my holidays work with it especially as that car has a really fast recharge.
So a FORTY thousand pound car that can only tow for 100 miles before needing to stop and be recharged?
Great if you're retired and can take a week to drive from Edinburgh to Dover to start your holiday. Less useful if you only get a fortnights' summer holiday per year!
Yes because
We’re not all going to be driving electric cars any time soon. There will be millions upon millions of current cars on the road in 5, 10 years from now
If anything, well looked after, clean & efficient diesel estates could be more valuable as they get rarer.
I have an issue with my current diesel Civic tourer / estate which means I may have to sell it, which is a bit of a pisser because I was hoping to run it into the ground for the next 5-10 years. Forces my hand to buy something else but I will get something similar.
So a FORTY thousand pound car that can only tow for 100 miles before needing to stop and be recharged?
150 miles.
For me that realistically means stopping for half an hour every two. So yes, it's slower, but for me it would be acceptable especially given the benefits the rest of the time. Just because it doesn't do what YOU want, doesn't mean it's no good for everyone else.
Great if you’re retired and can take a week to drive from Edinburgh to Dover
You want your maths looked at. It's 473 miles from Edinburgh to Dover, that means three fill-ups which is probably going to take you an extra 1.5 hours, not a week. That's 1.5 hours on 8 hours' worth of driving. Personally I'd be stopping along the way anyway at least once, so I'd probably be looking at an extra 45 mins or so. That means a fully day's driving is still basically a full day's driving. Given the benefits the rest of the year, I would be quite happy with that.
Yes, but it very much depends on usage. My partner and I both have diesels, we never do journeys of less than 20 mins; usual is 30 mins+. We never go into urban areas and get between 55mpg to 65mpg. Weekends involve moving bikes/dog/skis etc.
EV's just not an option unfortunately. We can't charge at home or at work, the nearest charging point to us is 6 miles away. Nearest place I can charge for work is a mile and a half away and after 90mins charging you get fined if you don't move it. Reasonably frequent trips involve driving 150 miles, parking in a forest car park or layby then walking for a couple of days before getting back to the car late afternoon and the 3 hour drive home. I really don't want to be trying to find somewhere to recharge and sitting in the car for a couple of hours waiting for it before I can go home. I am very pro EV's, but not yet for me.
sitting in the car for a couple of hours waiting for it
Whilst we are myth-busting: the rest of your post is fine but no car needs 2 hours to charge on a rapid charger. The above mentioned Ioniq 5 takes 18 mins from 10-80% given a suitably quick charger.
Reasonably frequent trips involve driving 150 miles
With a 300 mile range you would barely need to top up for 5 mins to ensure you got home. You don't always have to charge to 100%.
Impossible to say without knowing how many miles a year you expect to drive.
What car do you have / what mileage can you get from a full charge? Does that range differ between summer & winter?
Audi e-Tron 55
Range anywhere between 240 and 170
And yes it does vary with temperature.
The charging network in central Scotland is actually pretty good.
Thanks all - been genuinely helpful.
In Summary Electric Vehicles are not currently up to what I need, hopefully they will be when I next need to buy a family weekend car in (hopefully) a decade.
Diesel cars are still worthwhile and unlikely to be phased off the roads anytime soon.
*goes off the check autotrader*
Yes. Well, that was the answer two years ago, bought a Passat, about as estate-y as it gets, its been good so far.
As a diesel estate driver, my plan is that next car to be a bit smaller and petrol.
I was hoping to not change for a while, but the value of the current car is rather good, and I'm tempted by something that's not not nearly 150k on the clock...
New would be completely insane, but 2nd hand you are at least not contributing to new cars being built which is better for the environment.
main thing is to drive a car as little as possible.
I'm moving to either mild hybrid (48V) petrol or PHEV for next company car. Depending on whats available.
Can't get reliable enough charging at home, and i'd need a full charge for a typical BEV every other night. The 4 or 5 kW I'll be able to get at home won't hack it. Especially with powercuts etc.
Brings my almost unbroken 25 years of diesel estates to an end.
New would be completely insane, but 2nd hand you are at least not contributing to new cars being built which is better for the environment.
You do know that a 2nd hand car was new, once...
You do know that a 2nd hand car was new, once…
It's not quite that simple*. By buying a used car (or being prepared to) you are boosting the prices of used cars, which will trickle all the way down to the bottom of the market where someone is trying to decide wether or not to scrap a car or pay the repair bill. If you buy new that's one more new car in the market and one less old car.
* It's not quite this simple either but broadly.
Can’t get reliable enough charging at home, and i’d need a full charge for a typical BEV every other night. The 4 or 5 kW I’ll be able to get at home won’t hack it.
No? My EV only takes about 6h to charge on 7kw. Call it ten hours at 4kW (not exactly accurate since even my 7kw is less than 4 for some of the charge cycle) then you shoudl have time overnight and you'd certainly have time over two nights.
Yup, but I've got foreign plates on and don't have to worry about low emissions.
🤣
No?
No, i've done all the calculations.
It'd need to be on all night every night, especially allowing for the normal household loads Vs the size of supply we have. It's not the best supply, and will cost a lot to uprate (i have to pay if i want it uprating/modernising outside of their normal cycle)
Especially with powercuts etc.
I've had 3 this winter, fortunately only 6-8 hours, but all over night. Last winter i had two that were 18-24 hours (and a couple of shorter ones). So a small risk of having an immobile car, exactly when i most need it to be mobile. (no water or heat when the power is out.) I also only have one car, so need it to cover almost all my use cases. If i was still married, we'd have a small BEV and a big estate.
The PHEV i'm looking at has a full electric range of around 70-80 km (i've tested it a few times) so with that i can convert all my local driving to electric, even just by plugging it into a domestic socket overnight. And can do a good chunk of my daily commute. Just a matter of them being available to order.
The 48V mild hybrid almost has the torque, fuel consumption and driveability of an equivalent diesel, and the power of the petrol it actually runs on.
Diesel just doesn't seem to offer much anymore.
I bought an E class diesel in November, nothing comparable in EV land
+ I’m not convinced EV is the way forward
Diesel golf estate here all good 🙂
The PHEV i’m looking at has a full electric range of around 70-80 km (i’ve tested it a few times) so with that i can convert all my local driving to electric, even just by plugging it into a domestic socket overnight. And can do a good chunk of my daily commute. Just a matter of them being available to order.
A lot of people seem to think PHEVs are the worst of both worlds but I see them as pretty useful.
When the Ioniq EV goes back, we would be left with a diesel estate. In an ideal world we'd get an EV tow car but we might end up with a Passat GTE.
molgrips
Full Member
sitting in the car for a couple of hours waiting for itWhilst we are myth-busting: the rest of your post is fine but no car needs 2 hours to charge on a rapid charger. The above mentioned Ioniq 5 takes 18 mins from 10-80% given a suitably quick charger.
Reasonably frequent trips involve driving 150 miles
With a 300 mile range you would barely need to top up for 5 mins to ensure you got home. You don’t always have to charge to 100%.
That assumes that I can afford to buy a car with a 300 mile range. I can't. An Ioniq 5 is Forty Four thousand pounds! That's my entire take home salary for nearly 3 years. For the sort of money I have I'm looking at a second hand car with a max range of maybe 150 miles assuming the batteries haven't degraded too much. When I bought my car in December I looked at pretty much every EV car in my price range for sale in Scotland and that was the best range I could find.
It also assumes that there is a fast charger near where I park and I have a car capable of being charged quickly.
You have to bear in mind that £10k gets you a ten year old Nissan Leaf which when it was new had a range of around 125 miles. I bought an immaculate 7 year old Kia Estate with 43k miles for £7.5k. A full tank of diesel gets me over 650 miles.
Much as I would really like to go electric, unless you are buying new/nearly new or don't need much in the way of range, there really is no alternative to ICE at the moment.
Just doing so. Replacing a diesel SUV with a diesel estate. Fits our needs for moving family and dogs up around the country.
Do also have an electric car and it’s recently been used to go down to London from cheshire then all the way up to North East Scotland. It took a bit longer than the diesel car did but that’s mainly because being away from home meant it couldn’t start the day fully charged.
Once it becomes more common for hotels and family to have electric charge points the electric thing will become easier. We would use it for those kind of journeys much more if we could charge where we stay.
As an aside the network in Scotland is pretty good. Multiple chargers in a wee place like Huntly.
That assumes that I can afford to buy a car with a 300 mile range
Not assuming anything, I did say at first that the cost was a major factor against EVs including myself. I can't afford a forty grand car either.
It also assumes that there is a fast charger near where I park and I have a car capable of being charged quickly.
Well no, you can park up all day in the wilds and then charge up on the way home.
I was addressing (for the record) the complaint that EVs aren't practical for that kind of use. Some EVs are, just not the kind of EV you or I can afford - yet. They will get much cheaper, and good used ones will be around in a few years.
I've been in the exact same position. Previous Octavia estate had a terminal engine failure a few months back. I've a stop-gap fiesta run around but need something bigger as a family car + bikes + dawg etc.
2nd hand cars are pricey at present. And only getting worse for the rest of the year (impact of war not considered).
Really really wanted a V70 or XC70. But would have to pay another £4-5k for something with 50k miles vs what I could get a 3-4 YO 180bhp Kuga with >20k miles. (Nothing newer as the stopped producing v70 a few years ago. Same with Toyota Avensis, etc. Estates not fashionable.
I'm hoping / gambling that I get 10 years + from it, until battery or H2 cars are realistic. Or the Gov pay me some £££ to trade into electric/ H2.
Diesels are fundamentally more efficient = less co2 than petrol.
As IC engined cars are available new until 2030 in Britain, then fuel will still be available for 5 years after at least. Motorists carry enough voting power to limit the Gov's behaviour.
(Not even mentioned the huge level of pollution making batteries, or the utter political stupidity of making ourselves even more dependent on Russia or China for raw materials for the batteries in the 1st place. The real answer is probably bio diesel).
Not even mentioned the huge level of pollution making batteries, or the utter political stupidity of making ourselves even more dependent on Russia or China for raw materials for the batteries in the 1st place. The real answer is probably bio diesel
Batteries won't continue to be made the way they are now. No-one wants to be dependent on dodgy foreign sources of unethcially mined stuff. There are large numbers of scientists and engineers working on this and every day there are research breakthroughs. Given the market demand, they'll get tons of investment and we'll soon be inundated with better, cleaner and more recyclable battery tech.
Biodiesel in its current form isn't the answer as it takes agricultural production away from food which we need. There are people working on stuff like algal biodiesel and ethanol from cellulose, but I have a feeling that will get less interest in the coming years.
I just thought I'd check and it turns out that the average cost of a second hand car is £14k (up 8% in the past year). When second hand electric vehicles are available for that cost and still have range, space and a decent life ahead of them, maybe I'll consider one. I suspect I'll have lost my license by then due to the age/infirmity bar.
I have taken a new job which will have me driving 20k+ miles a year with a car full of product and I will get a Passat or C class etc with a 2L diesel.
Small petrol engines are good in light cars but as soon as you put lots of weight in them they struggle. Low miles / short journeys will also clog up the filters, EGR, injectors etc in a modern diesel quickly.