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Hiya.
Trainee Nursing Associate on my first placement at a busy Children's and Families Centre.
Been working with the Health Visitors, Nursery Nurses and School Nurses this week, everything from antenatal appointments, 8 week/8 month health checks, pre school clinics and home/school visits with older children and families.
Love it, immensely rewarding and positive work, excellent management, great colleagues.
A huge contrast with my base placement, which let's just say is massively different.
I'm the only bloke in the unit. They have had one male HV, but currently it's just women.
Would you be happy with a male in this role? Would you feel you could be as open and honest as you would with a female? Would you feel uncomfortable?
It's something I'd definitely consider once qualified, but would be interested to hear the views of parents.
Thanks in advance.
Yeah, why not. Not sure how I'd feel about antenatal appointments though, is it sexist to prefer a woman?
As CG, yes, why not? I can see how it might get harder when it gets to the business end of things, and I can fully understand why a woman might only want a woman at that stage. For everything else, hell yes! Not least because, as a chap, there wasn't anything in the HV set up before our two arrived that even acknowledged I existed.
By way of illustration on the technicalities, I know an awful lot about bra fitting (Mrs CFH has rather specific needs) but I cannot imagine a situation where, even with all the training in the world, Rigby & Peller would give me a job fitting bras! It's not even slightly sexist to prefer a woman in certain situations!
Well in medicine I've shown my junk to dudes and ladies, depends on your ideas really.
We always ask before I'm introduced to the parents and children, and there's no pressure for the parents to say yes.
But they absolutely have a choice and I don't think it's at all sexist for people to prefer a female.
Well in medicine I’ve shown my junk to dudes and ladies, depends on your ideas really.
🙂 Me too Mike.
Personally, I'm happy to receive advice on male specific medical issues from a female health professional but I understand that this is very different.
I'm just after an idea of how people would feel about it.
Yeah, why not. Not sure how I’d feel about antenatal appointments though, is it sexist to prefer a woman?
Probably not, just personal preference. I prefer female doctors for that sort of thing but have no idea why.
Rusty - I personally couldn't care so long as you were doing your job. The thing about all the pregnancy stuff is to make sure you pass on the relevant info (which our HV did) so that everyone has the support they need. And to reassure folk, that's a biggie. All the best to you though!
Really, it's nothing to do with gender and all to do with the right type of personality and people skills. I can see no reason to feel uncomfortable or reluctant to share. Definitely wouldn't want to discuss pregnancy-related issues with a male especially a first pregnancy where anxiety and nervousness is inevitably high coupled with weird things happening to a woman's body that one might not want to share.
As a matter of interest, do male midwives exist?
Yes, 100%, no issues. Was stay at home dad for my kids, so did all the appointments etc, sometimes I got some odd reactions though,
As a matter of interest, do male midwives exist?
Yup, not a huge proportion, but quite a few about.
Definitely wouldn’t want to discuss pregnancy-related issues with a male especially a first pregnancy where anxiety and nervousness is inevitably high coupled with weird things happening to a woman’s body that one might not want to share.
Thanks, CG, that's very helpful and I totally understand.
We have female Health Visitors who don't have kids, so have the same experience of breastfeeding and childbirth as I do. 🙂 It's just not quite as obvious. ☺
Thanks for all your responses.
For our first born we had a male midwife. He was great no problem for us. I know some midwife's, who are female, with no kids so he had/has the same experience as them.
Yep.
No one bats an eyelid at a male gynecologist and that's far more personal.
It's not eyelids they're looking at...
Our second child was delivered by the midwife said midwife happened to be male, horror of all horrors. I’ve delivered 5 babies and can tell you that when it gets to the pushing stage woman don’t give a shit.
As for antenatal, it’s 2018 not 1970 again women don’t care they’ll happily talk about any issues with a medical professional.
We had a male Health Visitor with our second.
My wife didn’t like him but that was based primarily on his scraggly ginger beard and his rather ‘wet’ personality I think more than his actual gender.
You should ask this on mumsnet. Make sure you post a link if you do...
Just make sure that Elon Musk isn't one of the dads and that you have a difference of opinion.
lol
I’ve not had a baby but I can understand why many people would prefer to have a female doctor or midwife during their pregnancy. I think it’s about empathy - if you have fears or concerns your natural instinct might tell you that a female doctor might relate to it a bit more. Like Drac says though, during delivery you wouldn’t give a shit and it’d be interesting to see which gender consultant people would prefer if things started to get really tricky during a difficult labour. Would some people prefer a ‘no nonsense male’? It’s fascinating stuff!
We are never going to get equality in the workplace without men also doing traditional "womens" jobs. Just tell them your a feminist if they moan!!
I’d be more than happy with a male health visitor or school nurse. If you think it’s the right field for you then go for it.
when it gets to the pushing stage woman don’t give a shit.
Well sometimes they do... 😉
Our health visitor is a guy for our first sprog. To be honest I found it much easier talking to him about struggling with our daughter than talking to the lady HV.
One of the midwives at our seconds birth was a man. No issues with that either.
They are both healthcare professionals. Who care what gender they are.
Also, one of the nursery staff is male. Some of the mums were not happy and questioning his motives for choosing that career. When I questioned them on their views and concerns none could give a valid, reasoned response. After a couple of months they all love the chap and realised he just loved working with babies and kids.
If that is a career you want to follow; go for it and sod what anyone else thinks.
Yes, why not. HV for our first kid was male.
"Would you be happy with a male in this role? Would you feel you could be as open and honest as you would with a female? Would you feel uncomfortable?"
That sounds a bit defensive, Rusty! I reckon lots of parents would actually prefer talking to a male health professional, especially someone a bit "older and wiser".
But, as others have said, it's all about personality, not gender. The very fact you've asked these questions demonstrates you have the required sensitivity. Good luck in your new career!
Would you be happy with a male in this role?
couldn't give a shit if it was male or female. The gender/sex of the person is irrelevant.
As a follow up. My wife didn’t like the 1st HV either. They were both far too ‘hippy’ for her and she wouldn’t mind a male or female HV as long as they have the right personality.
Well in medicine I’ve shown my junk to dudes and ladies
But everyone gets all upset when I do the same thing in Waitrose.
As far as health visitors go, I recall my wife bein very much of the opinion they were a formality in visiting and she just wanted to get on with things. Possibly the second one she felt a little more comfortable with a female as the visitor checked up on her condition after a c-sector.
With regard to school nurse, we don’t care what sex they are. Their qualifications matter more than the contents of their underwear. Personally I’d like to see more men in school roles. My son is struggling this year as after six school years it’s the first time he’s had a male teacher and it’s very alien to him. It shouldn’t be. Boys should have male authority figures around them.
No problem. With both of our kids we had involvement from the same male midwife (not for the final birth due to shift change) and it was never an issue.
HV is even less of an issue.
Genuine thanks to everyone who has responded.
There is a brillant Mumsnet thread about this and I've done a hell of a lot of research, but your opinion is invaluable.
I'm 49 and will be 53 before I would be allowed to do the job, after much study.
I've specialised in dementia and acquired brain injuries for the past 15 years and loved every minute. Huge effort, but when you have a decent team around you the rewards can be extraordinary.
I feel this could be something equally rewarding that I could be bloody good at for the rest of my working life.
I like people. That's why I've been a care worker for 20 years and am now training to be a Nurse.
Working with mums and small children is incredibly rewarding - it's hard to explain and I genuinely wasn't expecting to feel like this, but I do.
Lots more placements and a lot of study. Something else might grab me as hard as this has and I will be asking your advice.
Many thanks, love to you all.
Having the competence, skills set and right attitude is what matters - not gender. There are some people - but hopefully a few - who think gender is also a consideration.
I'm of a generation where too many people took decisions and formed opinions using gender as one of their evaluation criteria - both formally and informally; pleased those days are well behind us.
What you're doing is great and you have my 100% support.
A bit late to the thread but yes, I would be perfectly happy with a man in that role. I’ve had 2 kids and in both cases the health visitor was a starchy old-fashioned type of grumpy old woman that I didn’t get on with !
"A Life's Work" on Radio 4 last month was an interesting discussion between three generations of midwives - including a young man about to qualify.
Personally the sex of a doctor is irrelevant. I simply prefer a good one.
My once had a male midwife visit here at home. Fine except for dirty fingernails! But at the time he had to accompanied by a woman. Whatever the rights and wrongs of that, it seemed an odd choice of career as you are always needing supervision/under suspicion.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of that, it seemed an odd choice of career as you are always needing supervision/under suspicion.
A very good point.
My own motivation? I've done a hell of a lot of dementia and end of life care. It grinds you down after a while, it's very rewarding but ultimately you're in a situation where you know the outcome. You can only do it for so long. No matter how much you try and remain detached you can't help but like the majority of people you care for and there's only so many funerals you can go to before you need a change.
That's why I've loved working with people with Acquired Brain Injuries for the past five years. You can see a positive outcome, everything you and your team does has an impact.
I think that's why this placement is so rewarding. It's about helping people have a better start to life, with all the infinite possibilities that entails, rather than helping someone have a better death. That is very rewarding too, but at the moment I'm happy with the change in perspective.
I guess the question might be if you find it difficult
It's 2018, I really don't think people should expect to have a gender preference for their health professionals.
To some extent I can see that someone who has actually BEEN THROUGH something can be more understanding and perhaps more empathatic but then we don't require midwives to have had childen.
Health visitor - possibly but IMO a very odd career choice for a man.
School nursing women only. You will not be able to be properly effective as a school nurse. How are young women going to be able to come to you with personal / sexual problems or for emergency contraception?
Midwife again possible for a man but again a very odd career choice
Yes patients are allowed to specify the sex of their nurses. As is right.
It's a nurse. Regardless of gender.
Health visitor – possibly but IMO a very odd career choice for a man.
Midwife again possible for a man but again a very odd career choice
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Why would it be a odd career choice (based on gender)? </span>
I can't imagine why any gender would favour being part of bringing new life vs say providing palliative care.
The only real issue I see is due to perceptions and misconceptions ...
Yes patients are allowed to specify the sex of their nurses. As is right.
In what century is that "right"? That's lie calling out the AA/RAC and then refusing assistance because they send a woman? How are perceptions ever going to change ... I hardly want to be in the situation of needing a nurse and having that nurse taken away because someone has a 'preference' and won't be treated by someone of the opposite gender.
School nursing women only. You will not be able to be properly effective as a school nurse. How are young women going to be able to come to you with personal / sexual problems or for emergency contraception?
Just propagating misconceptions and perception. Why would it be different for a young man to approach a female nurse for 'personal problems' ???
Which just seems to bring us full circle... it seems odd perhaps because its not a common choice for males... but it seems a large part of that is down to perception. 4/5 of my last GP's have been female... I don't go to a surgery and ask if I can have a bloke in case I want to discuss "personal problems" ....
If I ever need tricky CV surgery I'd be sure to go to the best CV surgeon I know who happens to be female...
School nursing women only. You will not be able to be properly effective as a school nurse. How are young women going to be able to come to you with personal / sexual problems or for emergency contraception?
Contraception aside how is that different with boys and female nurses?
Yes patients are allowed to specify the sex of their nurses. As is right.
If this is the case then the NHS would surely be unable to function were people to specify that they wanted a male nurse.
gonefishin - expectations is the difference. Boys are used to female nurses, girls are not used to male ones Emergency contraception is for girls only. A male school nurse would need chaperoning pretty much continuously. This would make them much less effective
Yes it is 100% the case that ALL patients can specify the sex of their healthcare worker. It may lead to delays in their treatment
expectations is the difference
But how are those expectations ever going to change if we don't allow them to?
Not so very long ago it was the expectation that a doctor or surgeon would always be male and a nurse would always be female.
Yes its about pandering to peoples prejudices. But why work in an area where peoples perceptions make you much less effective / mean you cannot do a large part of the job?
Because it is what you want to do and other people's prejudices shouldn't stop you doing it?
If you want to be ineffective in the job and not be able to do large parts of it? I am simply talking pragmatically not in an ideal world.
I really think some of you guys have no idea what these three types of nursing involve. A man simply will not be able to do the job properly.
We had a male health visitor for our two, who are now in their teens. Didn't like him at all, but this was due to him being a preachy ****, not for any gender issue.
I have a pet theory about this whole midwife/nurse = female, yet gynaecologist/obstetrician fine to be a bloke thing. It has a great deal to do with the feminised role title, I’m sure. Ban the words ‘nurse’ and ‘midwife’ and replace with ‘clinical practitioner’, ‘obstetrics specialist’ or some such and give it ten years to settle in and you’d see a much more equal gender balance in these roles.
Of course, the daily Wail brigade would hate it, (political correctness gone mad I tell thee) which I’m my mind is only a plus.
I have no no evidence for this other than there don’t seem to be such gender disparities or prevalent biased views in the equivalent medical professions of obstetrics and gynaecology.
no problems at all with a male HV / Nurse coming to the school - frankly it's a good bit of role model promotion for the boys as well as girls
Teej, you’re showing your age/generation! Surprised at you 😉
I really think some of you guys have no idea what these three types of nursing involve. A man simply will not be able to do the job properly.
Whilst I accept that some women may not be happy with a male health visitor I cannot see why there can be any objection to a man being a school nurse where literally 50% of the potential patients are male.
Attitudes will never change whilst we reinforce them. Such attitudes hinder attempts to obtain equality in the work place and in society in general.
gonefishin – expectations is the difference. Boys are used to female nurses, girls are not used to male ones
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">How/why do you think that happened? </span>
Our school nurse was a guy. Didn’t bother me as a child and I guess none of the parents either knew or cared...
personally I don’t car what gender my healthcare provider is as long as they can answer my questions about illnesses, treatment, pharmacology and at no point suggest that I should just look on NHS direct.... if I was going to self diagnose and Medicare I would not have gone to see you (because it’s a massive pita to actually get to see you). ideally they would also have little to no pep and cheeriness too...
Wouldn’t trouble me as a parent. I think there should be choice as what is ok for some - may not be for others. The choice being that of the person seeking treatment/support/guidance.
frankly it’s a good bit of role model promotion for the boys as well as girls
Yep! Nothing wrong with kids seeing that nurses can be any gender.
Having said that, both of our daughters have told us that "only men can be doctors" 😠
Which is pretty astounding, given that their mum is a consultant doctor.
Wouldn’t trouble me as a parent. I think there should be choice as what is ok for some – may not be for others. The choice being that of the person seeking treatment/support/guidance.
Well up to a point ... it's not like there is any/much point changing perceptions of geriatrics but it strikes me if someone didn't want "darkies" or whatever quaint term treating them that would be totally unacceptable.
With regards kids though ... I think we are well overdue or they grow up thinking professions are gender specific etc.
I don't remember being consulted in the 70's if I wanted a male HV to do the drop and cough... and 40+ yrs later I don't have any problem going to a female healthcare worker. Let's face it.. even if I did I'd need to share my "personal medical details" with the non-medical staff on reception anyway...
v8
I am just talking about the realities of the job - not what would be done in an ideal world. Just because you can does not mean you should. If you want an endless battle with peoples perceptions, with having to get chaperoning all the time, with having to refer people elsewhere 'cos you cannot do that task but most importantly how many young girls needing emergency contraception will be put off by having to talk to a man about it?
Gonefishing - but the male school nurse will not be able to provide most of the services the school nursing has to offer for 50% of their patients
The chaperoning thing for school nurses is a complete red herring. Teachers, by virtue of their job, have a much greater potential to harm a child than any school nurse but they aren’t chaperoned.
As for a male nurse not being able to deliver services to a girl, explain why that isn’t the case when the genders are reversed i.e. female nurse and a boy.
No its not. Its for the protection of the nurse., A male nurse would need a chaperon for most work with girls.
Society and expectations. It might not be right but it is the reality. also providing contraceptives and sexual health services to girls is much more intimate that doing it for boys.
Lol.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> What exactly is emergency contraception?</span>
No its not. Its for the protection of the nurse., A male nurse would need a chaperon for most work with girls.
Society and expectations. It might not be right but it is the reality. also providing contraceptives and sexual health services to girls is much more intimate that doing it for boys.
It's all expectations... but those are changing but they are only going to keep changing through our kids expecations.
I remember asking my parents in the 70's why the school had entrances with girls and boys over the doors, carved in stone.(literally) Of course none ever envisioned mixed schools...
Any gender of child alone with any gender of staff member can make accusations... so I don't really see any real difference.
Society and expectations. It might not be right but it is the reality. also providing contraceptives and sexual health services to girls is much more intimate that doing it for boys.
And by not discussing any of this openly society will not advance. I say this as having come back from a place where their are tv adverts for plan b and billboards saying abortion is murder... no one talks about it and you can opt your kids out for thier 1 hour presentation at age 15... mind you many of them believe murder and unmarried pregnancies are caused by a lack of Jesus
In regards to the emergency contraception thing.
If they managed to get themselves in the situation to need it, then they should be mature enough to deal with asking for it from a male.
Any gender of child alone with any gender of staff member can make accusations… so I don’t really see any real difference.
Wholeheartly this. It’s surely best practice to have a chaperone for any potentially iffy consultations in this day and age regardless of the gender or sexuality of patient or clinician. In a school environment this could be a TA or secretarial staff. It wouldn’t be hard.
Female staff do not need chaperones for dealing with most males . Male staff do with female patients. simple as that. Its for the staffs protection.
Hyponewt - you think putting a barrier of embarrassment in the way of providing emergency contraception is satisfactory? I do not
I love the ideals you guys are showing but I am talking about the actual practicalities. A male as a school nurse would be ineffective at best and would not be able to discharge their duties properly
Girls can soon get used to the fact that men can be nurses. It’s not like school kids are 60 years old with decades of expectations in their lives.
Well up to a point … it’s not like there is any/much point changing perceptions of geriatrics but it strikes me if someone didn’t want “darkies” or whatever quaint term treating them that would be totally unacceptable.
Of course, that’s surely so obvious we do not need to say it...
I think most people these days would be happy with a live body of any gender, given accessibility to NHS services. Seriously, gender would be of no issue whatsoever as far as I’m concerned.
i do feel for male midwives though. Great job from what I heard when they interviewed one on Radio 4. But think of the preconceptions
Yes patients are allowed to specify the sex of their nurses. As is right.
Really am I allowed to ask the sexual orientation of my health professional, thier religion and thier race.
Nope - just specify the sex of the healthcare professional. Nothing else.
how many young girls needing emergency contraception will be put off by having to talk to a man about it?
Not many TJ. Tens of thousands of young women around the country are perfectly happy going to male doctors and male pharmacists for the emergency contraceptive.
I know we've had bugs with the forum but I'd never thought I'd see TJ posting from the 1950s.
Nurse here 23 year plus, Now a recovery nurse practitioner, I look after everything one minute a child, next a woman, etc etc. I'm laughing at TJ's comments. We wouldn't be able to run theatres and recover if we had that mentality. We are very sensitive to people's wishes and dignity is paramount. When I started I use to laugh when asked "are you a male nurse"...
Wowsers! I keep visualising Carry on Doctor. Thankfully there's only one dinosaur here.
Are school nurses still a thing? Can't say we had one in my school.
When I wanted sexual health advice at that age I went to the local Brook Advisory Centre. It wouldn't have mattered a single jot to me whether I was spoken to by a male or female (and that was 20 years ago...).
Yes, more school nurses now. I work with one when she does a few shifts with us. Sadly it's not all about contraception and periods. A sad part is child protection and looked after children reviews. Makes nits a walk in the park. It sounds an amazing job. They're all very dedicated.
Yeah, no men as nurses and women shouldn't be senior management, lawyers, accounts, etc either because clients/customers/shareholders/peers will expect a man in the role. I really think some of you guys have no idea what these professional roles involve. A woman simply will not be able to do the job properly.
Or we can not be driven by outdated prejudices, instead promoting equality and deal with individual prejudice as it happens.
catnash - nurse of 40 years here. In that time attitudes have changed for sure. However you work in theatres - you are not am lone worker working with vulnerable children so its not comparable. You ever been a lone worker? I have and as a man its limiting
As I said above I admire your idealism however I am saying to the OP that those roles will be very frustrating as you will not be able to do large parts of the school nurse job without a chaperone. go for it if you want to but be aware there will be barriers to you doing the job some of which are insurmountable
So in an ideal world then go for it. In the real world be very wary. If you want to spend your working time fighting peoples prejudices then fine. But be aware that IMO as a school nurse you will be fighting this all the time.
TJ, I think there is a pretty big difference between being realistic in highlighting the possible barriers the OP will face and just flatly saying a man cannot possibly do that job at all.
Strangely enough school kids of today don't have the same outlook as old men posting on cycling forums, it's the individuals personality that matters and caring people can be in short supply especially if you disregard 50% of them on the basis of sex.
These are the same sort of arguments that were used d to keep women out of traditionally male jobs (i.e patients wouldn't want to have a female doctor or a woman can't be a police officer cos she is too small), so at least it's a sign of progress that we question that less and have moved on to questioning men doing women's jobs instead
Grahams - true. I never said a man cannot do the job tho. All I wanted to do was highlight the difficulties he would face in reality. and gave my opinions.
Trent steel its not the same arguments. Its an understand of what is practical. I am a nurse, I have been for 40 years. I have seen attitudes change greatly in that time. all I am saying is that there are considerable barriers to be accepted in those roles as a man. thats the reality