[Closed] Would you accept restrictions on driving/flying post Covid for the environment?

Yup, although traffic levels have definitely risen over the past week already.

First fortnight I couldnt hear the main road even at rush hour, today I can still hear it now at 9pm.

Yes. Much more pleasant, healthy and sustainable with less traffic around.

Yes.

Like everyone else you'll support the restrictions right up to the point when it impacts on your cheap holiday to Europe...

The lack of aircraft isn't responsible for the current good weather, it's just coincidence.

Even the people who have embraced bikes will promptly forget about it the next time one gets in their way in a car. I'd like to think that it might provoke infrastructure improvements like in Europe but it's extremely unlikely.

Yes but....I have no doubt there is a significant proportion of the population who would say no, I'm reverting to pre-covid; disappointing.
Will be interesting to see how the gov attempts to swerve this; powerful transport lobbies with access to ministerial ears v Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace and Caroline Lucas.

Of course. I self limit anyway

If it had rained for the last 3 weeks no-one would even notice the difference.

I’d welcome it with open arms. It’s so much more pleasant and calm despite the circumstances. Only been on two planes in my life and one of those was for work. I’d sell the car in a heartbeat, but Mrs F is a tad lazy and comes from a family who think a car is a necessity for pretty much every journey. I on the other hand am the only person from my family with a driving licence and prefer to walk or cycle where possible.

Things will pretty much just return to exactly as they were before at the first opportunity I think though.

I would but then I like bikes and only drive once or twice a week

The standard response will be yes, much better as is from that perspective - as long as my car journey and my plane are ok to carry on as they were.

Smaller scale, but I hope many more will find the necessity to commute substantial distances each and every day and fly out for 'essential' meetings might dwindle a little now we have all had some forced CPD in virtual platforms.

Absolutely yes!

I would but then I like bikes and only drive once or twice a week

Pretty much that. I have a return flight every third year or so (last one was Barra so not exactly long haul). Don't commute by car. Mostly ride/walk close to home. I have a campervan that we head off in a few times a year, never more than a couple of hundred miles each time. I suspect it's not me you'd have to convince 😉

My wife needs a car for work, so that wouldn't change regardless.

It's something that has needed to happen for ages. I'd happily support it. Hopefully this little glimpse of what life would be like will help gather a bit of support. Probably too much to ask.

Unfortunately the cost of all this pleasant environment is the economy collapsing, so I suspect most people won’t be willing to pay the price.

I'd happily accept it.

Was interesting on the "will I get a holiday this year" thread how many people couldn't wait to get in a plane again

Imnotverygood. there is absolutely no reason why a lower carbon economy would be negative economically - there would be winners and losers but it does not take money out of the economy overall. We are also going to have to reset the economy hugely - why not reset it along low carbon lines?

some stuff can be done overnight, some would take years to generations

Sadly, what is going to happen is that there is going to be a rush to get people back working again. I suspect any thoughts of 'greening' the economy will just get steamrollered. There may be a few cosmetic changes, but by and large this won't lead to people giving up their cars for example. On the contrary, I suspect there will be a mass move away from public transport.

Why would you expect any change? Most people will still need to drive to work, will need to drive buy things they are temporarily not buying, kids will need ferrying to school. This is blip, all we've done is temporarily stopped doing things that necessitate travel, when they restart so will the travel.

It will take some proper effort to change things properly which given the double whammy of Covid-19 and Brexit on the economy is even less likely.

I ride to work most days and unless I need to go to site the non cycling days would be public transport anyway.

We generally don't fly on our hols if it's UK or Europe based we drive. Winter and summer.

I'd be happy with restrictions or paying differently. VED based on mileage and flight prices levelled out so there's no longer silly cheap ones, or really expensive at certain times of the year.

I don't think anything will change though....

Of course. I self limit anyway

Arghhj. That's twice in one day. Got to agree with that

This is an ideal opportunity with bailouts to apply eco related constraints on airlines such as paying vat on fuel. But almost no countries are doing it. Again it's somewhere where the EU should be able to lead but can't 🙁

Sadly, as soon as the restrictions are lifted it’ll go back to how it was.. for a week or so it’ll be worse while people get all excited about making all their pointless car trips again.

Most definitely

Interesting.

Unfortunately the cost of all this pleasant environment is the economy collapsing, so I suspect most people won’t be willing to pay the price.

I'm not sure economically productive activity has to be polluting, indeed for all the businesses folding and laying staff off, others have rolled with the punches and managed to maintained some level of operation.

The industry helped most by the British love of motors is oddly enough finance, according to This article I just skimmed the average UK household spends £388 a month on car ownership. I'm sure in The aftermath of CV19 that's a cost lots of families facing a recession will be reconsidering.

My car hasn't left the drive in over a month and there is barely a vapour trail in the sky, covid has done more for the environment in a couple of months than all the world's politicians fobbing of St Greta...

I'd be happy to reduce car/plane use personally. But I also get that there is an air of "let them aleat cake" to such things, I'm middleclass and middle income and can probably afford the thing you tend to trade in exchange for the convenience of a car which is time. It will take longer to get places and do things in a lower carbon economy, and not all jobs can be done from home.

I’m all for towns being more pedestrian / cycle friendly and would be happy if more went that way. As long as there is the public transport / infrastructure to support it.

I’d like all the planes to start flying again though please as I’d like to still be employed when this is over.

Despite working* in the oil and gas industry, I'd happily introduce heavy restrictions on anything that burns the black stuff.

Unfortunately, society as a whole is selfish and lazy, so it's not going to happen.

*probably not for much longer, given the state its in

Whilst i don't think there will be any ideological or policy shift, in all the misery there will hopefully have been some 'natural wastage' of unsustainable companies, practices and behaviours that won't come back. Commuting by plane, second homes, a few less airlines. We can hope.

Yep, I would. People fly way too much and people, rely on cars way too much. One thing that I would implement after this is working at home. All companies that can work at home (as proved during the current period) need to continue to have a 50%+ work at home policy. That would remove a lot of traffic.

Yes, I’d accept (in fact, prefer) ongoing restrictions on car and aviation use.
However, like others have said above, this is a temporary blip, the day that restrictions are lifted it will be full throttle back to trashing the planet.
Any political party that advocates anything like it will be voted out at the earliest opportunity.
People (in general) like cars, flying to nice places, and buying random pointless shit off the ‘net.
I HOPE that there may be a change in people’s attitudes: namely, some of us will re-evaluate what we need to live, but I believe any such changes will be small/by a minority of people.
We are our own worst enemies.

I think you have to be very careful with the word restrictions here. It's potentially an easy slide into eroding some very basic and fundamental freedoms.

I would absolutely support giving more space to pedestrians and encouraging people to work local or from home. That's something I've felt quite strongly about for some time anyway and it's great to see everybody out, but it's quite a complex problem and requires a huge cultural shift. Hopefully we can make use of the opportunities and create positive change.

Given the climate crisis, the question should really be "why wouldn't you accept...", no?

No objections from me anyway.

Haven’t had a car since 2004. So I’m unlikely to change.
I agree with the attitude that it will go straight back to how it was, and as has been posted above traffic volumes over the last couple of days are creeping up. Everyone seems to be thinking we’ve got this beat.

It has been pointed out in a few places that a more general return to work would see traffic problems as folk will still want to avoid public transport. Without alternatives that will see a huge increase in private car use leading to congestion and a lack of available parking. Some cities are already implementing additional cycle lanes to help cope with this. Maybe, just maybe, they might become permanent.

You realise that on such criteria driving to a trail centre to hurtle down a hill on a bike or dragging a tin box 400 miles to sleep in it would probably also not meet any "essential" criteria.

If you want people to walk and cycle more - you probably need to fix the weather though. Great just now. Not so much in November.

On a different but slightly related note, we've noticed, unsurprisingly that there has been an increase in on-line food shopping. What seems totally disjointed is that Tesco can deliver to my house today. Then my neighbour tomorrow, then another neighbour later the same day, and someone else the day after. Thats 4 journeys, it would surely be much more efficient to find a way to synchronise the collections. Not only would it save fuel/planet it would mean the driver spent less time moving between deliveries.

What seems totally disjointed is that Tesco can deliver to my house today. Then my neighbour tomorrow, then another neighbour later the same day, and someone else the day after. Thats 4 journeys, it would surely be much more efficient to find a way to synchronise the collections. Not only would it save fuel/planet it would mean the driver spent less time moving between deliveries.

In an urban area (large customer base / density of population) it probably makes little difference. In (some) rural areas deliveries only happen on set days for the reasons you point out.

However, like others have said above, this is a temporary blip, the day that restrictions are lifted it will be full throttle back to trashing the planet.

They say habits are formed after 21 times of doing something consistently. I doubt we will be back to "normal" within 21 weeks of the whole thing... so thats a lot of daily and weekly habits reformed. Yes some restrictions will be lifted sooner but with the exception of a few crack pot US states nobody is suggesting we go from near total lockdown to total freedom overnight. Scot Gov were quite clear yesterday (and have been throughout) that we may see relaxation - further relaxation - tighten - relaxation - tighten cycles throughout.

The only way you can get back to "full throttle" is an effective, reasonably long term, vaccine, available to everyone -- bearing in mind that globally the UK population may not even be the number 1 priority... I'd say thats more like 21 months than 21 weeks or 21 days. There is no certainty its possible at all. Obviously its not sustainable to operate like this for 2 years...

On my ride today, I was astonished by the amount of people on bikes, even with little tiny kids cycling around with their parents. I don’t remember seeing that on roads before, in parks maybe.

I would guess a lot of this is due to the amount of time available to the parents and children. When things get back to normal time will be stretched again and a 5 minute drive to the shops will be much more appealing than a 30 minute bike ride.

And all the kids will be back to their after school activities - and normal dad/mum taxi duty will be resumed.

People that fly need to be punished. It has to be beyond basic taxation.
I like driving so a different approach for cars.

Yep

What seems totally disjointed is that Tesco can deliver to my house today. Then my neighbour tomorrow, then another neighbour later the same day, and someone else the day after. Thats 4 journeys, it would surely be much more efficient to find a way to synchronise the collections. Not only would it save fuel/planet it would mean the driver spent less time moving between deliveries.

I'd be very surprised if Tesco or Amazon or whoever wasn't studying this very closely, it's certainly not in their interest to do this.

Anway some change will happen: we've just been told that the bank I work for is planning on making WFH a far more common thing, no doubt to save costs on office space etc rather than any other motive, but the end result will be a net drop in traffic it generates.

I think we would be naive to think that some change will not happen, how much though will be determined by what different parts of society both domestically and internationally will tolerate. I suspect a majority will dive straight back to what the old normal was whilst others will embrace the opportunities to live differently. There are already drivers pushing us along to improve air quality before COVID-19 so I would like to see this as a marker as to what could be achieved, albeit at the extreme end of the scale, with some ambition. Everyone will have to play their part, however we will all have our caveats as to why something is important for us because of xyz. For example we don't fly on holidays, haven't done since our some was 1, before we had our daughter, so 13 years ago. We do however holiday in the UK and tow the tin box 300 miles, which has its own positives and negatives. But MrsSpud works from home anyway, we don't drive unless there is no alternative generally speaking and hope to go to one car when hers gives up the ghost. I cycle to the office or use trains for business travel. Being civil service our estate is already shrinking and there are a lot less desks to work at so that will drive less commuting, although some is necessary. I suspect though that any major change will be inequitable, and those that can't afford to change will be hardest hit, the less well off in our society, if they can afford a car for example might have an older more polluting one and can't change it, so when it comes to charging zones based on air pollution are adversely and disproportionally affected. The rich will continue to use their first class and private flights, hugely fuel-thirsty vehicles etc, because they can afford the cost implications.

Yes/no/maybe.
I think there may well be more working from home options available post Covid, as employers and employees will have got used to the idea and in no small part already invested in making it happen. It'll partially depend on how much employees have been extracting the weewee.

Hopefully (NB see lower down) there may well be less business jaunts too as people will have got used to the idea of not seeing each other face to face. My other half's cousin seems to spend 5 weeks in 6 abroad living in airport hotels across the globe presenting at IT security conferences, which seems utterly stupid. If IT types can't get used to the idea of video conferencing, how are the rest of us supposed to?

I can see it all going to pot once schools go back - summer holidays are always quieter for commuting traffic, but its unthinkable that precious offspring can walk or ride to school, so out comes the car. Hopefully some of the increased WFH will allow more parents more time to improve on this though.

There's a large amount of getting people to understand "practical biking". I'm seeing lots of people going out for nice jollies in the countryside on bikes - but can they join that up to doing the shopping by bike, or commuting, especially once the weather turns?

Speaking personally, I use my car a small fraction of what I used to, now I live 160miles from the office, than when i lived 5 miles from it - I used to knock up a solid 20k miles a year to ride my bike when I lived in London - 3 weekends in 4 we'd be away somewhere, and even a "local" ride, would be an hour trip each way to the Surrey Hills. So I'm winning there already (commute by bike/train combo).

However the first thing I want to do post-lockdown is to drive somewhere to ride my bike, despite living where there's great doorstep riding. Going to ride my bike in cool places is a large chunk of what I live for and that involves travel. Bollocks are you stopping me. (as an example, today would be perfect for a Lakes cheeky epic jaunt)

Moving further afield, again, no way am I prepared to give up my annual skiing trip, and once we've got the mortgage paid off in 18months, it'll be time to start on the bucket list trips, so there will be a a certain amount of flying going on, unless there's a sensible alternative - the last couple of years we've taken the overnight Eurostar to Les Arcs to ski - time and cost wise about the same as flying including transfers, less "luxurious" (term used very loosely), but gets us an extra day on the slopes, and is logistically easy for us from where we live. If I could get a train to where I want to go for low stress, similar time and cash as flying - great, but I'll struggle to do that to Iceland or Canada...

Workwise too - corporate events - the biggest, most profitable gigs we've done in the last few years have all been for American or Chinese clients coming over to the UK for a jolly, so actually, I kind of need that to continue to keep my job!

A lot of ^^^ no doubt comes across very selfish - I wouldn't argue otherwise, but being out in the wild is what I live for, and what makes me happy, so I'm going to figure out a way to make it happen, come what may. Day to day life, we're pretty good - I WFH, we commute by bike, shop on foot or by bike, buy local if we can type stuff, but yep, the big things - pretty crap on. However our footprint ends when we die, as haven't spawned more little consumers to carry on the bad work.

However our footprint ends when we die, as haven’t spawned more little consumers to carry on the bad work.

I’d like to know if our decision to not have kids has a greater positive impact on the environment than a family of 4 deciding to travel by train on holiday vs flying 🙂

I’m sure there’s some research been done, off to take a look.

No, flat no.

I would not want more restrictions, since again this will come in the form of taxes which would only raise inequality imho.

However, I don’t think when this is over we are going back to the same situation.

Well I've made the call to terminate my (work) lease today.

I've driven the car about 5 times in the last 6 weeks and I now know I didn't need to. I've thoroughly enjoyed walking, that involves a trip to a supermarket occasionally, and picking up some bits and bobs. Plus WFH is definitely my future for a while yet.

Niggling doubt I may have made the wrong decision, but a month on and £300 wasted from when I first thought it I've bitten the bullet.

I am also fully aware it's not rained for 6 weeks 😀

Im going to be honest and say No. I love going to the Alps, Wales, the Lake and alike to ride my bike. I wouldn't want to stop doing that so I guess I will just admit it. If this lockdown has taught me anything its how much I miss not being able to go away for the day, weekend or longer. Yes I am concerned for the environment so there is that contradiction but when you watch programs about 1 ship builder using 21km of steel a week to build a cruise ship it makes we realise that no matter what I do I will make not one jot of difference.

In answer to the OP, yes,but....it's not going to happen for all the reasons mentioned on here....but I do think a lot more people will WFH, and a lot of work related overseas travel will be done over Zoom etc. I would hope these two things alone could make a slight dent.

If we can at minimum use it to encourage big business to allow more WFH and get people to use bikes/buses/walk fir the smaller journeys and in compact urban areas then it'll be a start. We'll never suppress society's desire to travel the longer distances in their own personal transport, that ship sailed a while ago, but if we can improve the easy wins of all these short journeys, unnecessary commuting and the air quality of our immediate surroundings then that would be a win in my book.

It most likely won't happen but you can live in hope.

Yes I would, but I suspect I (and many others on here) are in the minority.

A lot of people where I work are saying they feel more productive working at home (I do) whereas many can't wait to get back into the office. I have found that correlates quite strongly with whether they have kids in the house though and if the kids were at school they may find it very different.

I am not looking forward to having to go back to office as this break has made it so clear what a waste of time commuting is, how annoying the office noise is, how you get distractions from people standing at your desk and interrupting you etc,.

Yep, I have lived without a car for about 7 years so that isn't a problem for me. For me it seems sensible to live within 1/2 and hours cycle/public transport of my work. But the problem with that isn't always where it seems. The UK has a highly volatile employment market, and a dysfunctionally expensive housing market not really giving the option to a lot of people of working close to where they live.

So the commuting problem may be better solved by having more secure employment, and a much more flexible housing market. laying a bit of technology on top of that to allow some home working would just be the icing on the cake. Giving people options is better than imposing restrictions.

Got to say though, the money I save from not running a car, I put into holidays. But there is improvement to be made there as well. I am quite happy travelling by train if it can be done in a day. And the EU is regulating to make inter country journeys much easier so that looks to becoming more realistic.

As long as my boss is in with me wfh, then sure, bring it on.

No, no, no.
I demand it. Flying for pleasure is disgusting. It serves one useful purpose. It takes millions of people away from this country . Driving much the same. I used to drive 25 miles to a school and almost daily waved to someone coming from just along the road from that school to teach at the school half a mile from me.
Recreation is worse. Immoral.
Stuff basic freedoms . Over rated and often not deserved. Every right has a responsibility. If you can't cope with the latter you don't deserve the former.
This current crisis is, very much to my surprise, bringing out an unpleasant socialist streak!


 

It doesn't really work like that....
I fly for work... not because I choose. Once a year the OH likes going to a furrin land and I reluctantly fly even though I'm not keen because I see more planes and departure lounges than I'd ever want to and as far as I'm concerned don't want to fly as part of a vacation.

Given a choice I'd rather get a Eurostar where it is practical but I'm not paying my own fare and my company won't pay so I fly...

Driving ??? Outside work, I drive to places to ride and that is more or less it.
Am I prepared not to ride anywhere worth riding when 90 something percent of my carbon footprint from travel is work and as they won't do anything NO.

What are you thinking in how this would be done? Ban trail centres/bike parks/races you can't ride to?

It may have been pointed out already on this thread (not read through it all) but there is a very real chance that post-lockdown easing of restrictions that car use goes up dramatically.

I work in local government public transport and we are planning for the number of journeys on bus and tram not to return, perhaps ever, to pre-Covid levels. It’s entirely predictable, faced with the decision of relatively quiet roads (for now) and total control of who’s in your vehicle, people will chose private car over public transport and the perceived additional risk that it presents.

This can only result in us having to provide ever greater funding for the bus network to provide socially necessary routes for those that can’t afford a car.

Yes, in a heartbeat. I really hope there are millions of people out there, enjoying time to do stuff they want to do, that don't want it to go back to 'normal' (which in reality is ****ing insanity.) Have you seen the before/after photos of places like Delhi? Seriously, why the **** would you want to contribute to re-polluting the place?

[img] [/img]

Anway some change will happen: we’ve just been told that the bank I work for is planning on making WFH a far more common thing

I agree, many workplaces have had to invest quickly in WFH infrastructure so they may as well get a return on that expenditure by saving on office costs.

when you watch programs about 1 ship builder using 21km of steel a week to build a cruise ship it makes we realise that no matter what I do I will make not one jot of difference.

No, you're entirely wrong. Why is the ship builder making a cruise ship in the first place? Because people are booking cruises. Why are they making container ships? Cos people are buying junk they don't need from the far East. Why are Airbus making planes? Cos people are booking flights to the Alps or Costa del Sol. Etc etc etc. People just like us.

Yes absolutely. I already cycle to work (or used to before WFH) and a trip to the Surrey hills already involves the road bike there and back or a train for the mtb. Never owned a car, and I dislike flying intensely (our last cheap European holiday was entirely by train, the one before that was train out and around then fly back).

Living in London what I’d really love to see longer term is more short trips being done by car or foot rather than by car. That and a reduced aviation industry as I see it’s pre covid situation as being totally incompatible with preventing climate change.

Someone mentioned food deliveries earlier. Sainsbury’s marks which slots are ‘green’ for us, so we can choose one where a van is already in our area.

Restricted flying - yes, maybe a maximum of non-transferable maximum traveled miles by air per person.

Restricted driving. Perfectly happy with priority lanes, alternating day access to city centres, restricted mileage, limits on commute mileage totals. All supported by requirements on mandatory supporting remote working etc and improving public transport...

No for restrictions.

Yes for improved availability and consideration of alternatives.

I would but like a lot of people who'll say that, I'm not the person that has to accept it since I don't fly much anyway (once every couple of years on personal business and maybe once a year on work)

Just like with everything else environmental, the reason it's necessary is that the cost paid isn't the true cost. We don't need a punitive regime or anything, we just need to change carbon costs so that they include the real world cost of climate damage, rather than paying for flood defences and health issues out of general taxation and kicking the bigger costs down the line.

Sort of wishing I'd spent my twenties slumming around Europe instead of exploring the highlands on the cheap now!

How does one get to the Alps with a bike if not by flying? 18hr gauntlet of jobsworth train guards on LNER/EUROSTAR/TGR?

I've only just had a taste of Euro road riding, will be a tough one to give up!

13thfloormonk
Subscriber

Sort of wishing I’d spent my twenties slumming around Europe instead of exploring the highlands on the cheap now!

How does one get to the Alps with a bike if not by flying?

We drove down to alpe d'huez last year, from Edinburgh. It wasn't a massive amount of fun tbh but it had its upsides, not least seeing MC from this forum lose his mind

On the subject of WFH (mentioned a few times on here) where do people stand on it?
I'm doing it now and I can't understand why people are in such a hurry to be in their house all the time.
I should say I do have a generally quite pleasant 40 minute ride to work (with good bus options in really rough weather) and I work in a nice office with nice people. I do realise that's not the case for everyone.

On the subject of WFH (mentioned a few times on here) where do people stand on it?

In the living room. In our pants.

In the living room. In our pants.

I suppose I asked for that. Fair.

How does one get to the Alps with a bike if not by flying?

In a campervan with a brief stint on a train.

In a campervan with a brief stint on a train

Have just advised my wife that we'll be combining family holidays and cycling holidays in future 😁

How does one get to the Alps with a bike if not by flying?

Maybe in order to save the planet for another generation we'll just have to change our expectations of long-distance travel?

Maybe in order to save the planet for another generation we’ll just have to change our expectations of long-distance travel?

It was a genuine question, wasn't trying to imply it wasn't possible. Am actually thinking it would be easier just overnighting by train with a hire bike waiting at the other end!

WFH is tricky for me for 2 reasons

1 I'm not that productive at home, too many distractions and we don't have kids

2 I am an accountant at a hospital and so 95% of my colleagues are at work and being the odd one who isn't there feels wrong.

It was a genuine question, wasn’t trying to imply it wasn’t possible.

It's true though. Decades of travelogues, documentaries on far-off foreign places, the post-war flying boom and then the fallout from Freddie Laker have left us all in a position where we think nothing of travelling half-way around the world for a bit of sunshine, do some business or meet up with relatives. In a few years time it might all (have to) look very different.

WFH is tricky for me for 2 reasons

1 I’m not that productive at home, too many distractions and we don’t have kids

2 I am an accountant at a hospital and so 95% of my colleagues are at work and being the odd one who isn’t there feels wrong.

First is a personal thing - people should work where they're most productive, that's different for different people.

Second is a bit of a societal thing, it'd be nice if the norm changed to make WFH more usual in such environments. People travelling just because that's what everyone else does is mad.

@bearnecessities A couple of months saving that £300 and you'll never be in the wrong clothing for the weather ever again.

It appears most people see it in a taxes and not being allowed in your car/plane restriction. i see it more as a removing capacity be that fewer slots for take-off and landing or highway space being re-allocated to active travel or public transport modes. A huge increase in public transport funding is also required along with re-opening the railway branch-line system.

Whether there is the political will and enthusiasm for this is down to us asking for/demanding it of those we elect.