I just read this article in the Independent with some excitement.
I love wolves. Always have. But as a Canadian expat, I know what it is to have grown up using the woods in the knowledge that any number of dangerous animals could be watching you: wolves, coyotes, bears, lynx, etc.
The question is: as mtbers who use the UK’s woods, how do you feel about the potential re-population? Will it make you nervous when you’re out there?
Nope...I'm far too fast to be caught by wolves.
And even if I wasn't, I'd just ride with someone slower than me.
Nah, we already have cows.
As long as they have enough food to eat they should be OK. They are just angry dogs after all.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-47330924
I've been attacked by 'domestic' dogs while riding in the UK. I don't see how a wolf would be any differet other than there will be more than one.
Nothing a small canister of pepper spray won't resolve if you keep moving.. If you're not a weak prey they'll lose interest. They tend to avoid humans unless desperate... But that begs the question, what will they eat normally if reintroduced? Ducks an deer? Lambs? Break into chicken sheds?
As a non-cyclist I do not wolves introduced to the UK nor, whilst I'm at it (lol), do I want sea eagles introduced to the Isle of Wight.
Go on then call me a spoilsport!
Not worried.
Wolves don't eat haggis,fact
SaxonRider curious as to how you went about your sporting activities with such a collection of wild animals around, what precautions did you take, were solo mountain bike rides out of the question? Thanks.
I think rewilding is a good idea, on the wolves front I can't see it happening south of the Highlands, although I hope it is investigated and considered. The wolves will need a food source like Red deer and territory to live in. I think there will be too much conflict in other areas of the UK.
I also saw an article about wild cat reintroduction in the south west where the habitats of coppices and hedge rows are perfect for the cats. It was a shame about the Lynx in Northumberland.
As for danger the wild boar (not carnivores but have a bad reputation) in FOD seem quite placid when left alone, even when they have young.
Edit: to answer the question, no as I don't think they will be re introduced to England. If they were, still no because the threat will not be that significant. If they did start eating unexpectedly high numbers of people I think they would be re extincted in the UK.
I think it is a good idea and should be done. Will change the way we ride probably by introducing another step of planning.
On a possible positive side it will hopefully keep those who can't stop skidding and tearing up the natural landscape to stick to trail centres for fear of meeting something that will stop them skidding.
Wolves are not going to be reintroduced. It's a non starter. No serious conservation organisation back it.
Even if they were they are scared of people so no issue for walkers or cyclists
Cinnamon girl - why no sea eagles? They are worth 5 million a year to the isle of mull in tourism and do not take livestock that is healthy. Magnificent birds. If only the hunting shooting fishing lot would stop killing them they would naturally spread all round the UK
It would make me ride more frequently in the hope that I'd see them.
It's not really an issue.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks_in_North_America
Having spent time in the Canadian backcountry biking and hiking, it wasn’t something I was keen to do solo, although I did bike ride alone at times. Having not grown up in BC, I was very aware that I was no longer number 1 in the food chain, bear, wolf and mountain lion, not forgetting a cow moose with a calf - which was one of the more unnerving moments, possibly more than coming face to face with a Grizzly in Kananskis.
I found yodelling more effective than dinner bells 😉
Biking and hiking in the British Isles is a piece of cake comparably speaking and were any wolves to be reintroduced, I think they would be far enough away from me that I hold no concern 😉
Well I wouldn't carry pepper spray, but I might ride a bit faster if I saw them following me.
Cinnamon girl – why no sea eagles? They are worth 5 million a year to the isle of mull in tourism and do not take livestock that is healthy. Magnificent birds. If only the hunting shooting fishing lot would stop killing them they would naturally spread all round the UK
tj - firstly I really do struggle with the concept of creatures being introduced in order to provide theme-park entertainment for the public. Secondly, there was on i-player I think a program about sea eagles where pro-sea eagle campaigners and residents of a tiny island off the coast of Skye were interviewed. The residents were crofters, eeking out a barely sustainable living with sheep. Apparently they would normally expect 75% of their lambs to survive each year but since the arrival of sea eagles this has reduced to 50%. They were losing half of the lambs meaning a huge financial hit year after year and it was becoming unsustainable as obviously nobody reimburses or compensates them. Dead lambs were shown and not a pretty sight, no question it was sea eagles who'd killed them.
To me this seems all wrong. Should these crofters abandon their way of life? Why should they, they've been crofting for donkey's years? Crofting is a tradition in Scotland and obviously a very hard life especially with variable weather conditions. Are the sea eagles more important than the crofters? I don't know whether any other crofters or farmers are affected by these birds but surely there's a good chance it will happen elsewhere.
I get that it's bringing in money and providing jobs but at the expense of others trying to make a living from the land? Doesn't sit well with me at all.
Hmmmm.. @cg, I see where you’re coming from but it kinda smacks of the arrogance of ‘man’. The one race of people, the First Nations of North America took it as their responsibility, for their own survival, to maintain the balance of them, nature and thei environment.
Unfortunately, the Northern Europeans came along with a much more self important approach to the planet.
YMMV
Sea eagles do not take many if any lambs - apart from sickly ones or dead ones. Thats a simple observed fact. There are not enough sea eagles to cause that much predation anyway. More likely to be predation from other sources and if the eagles had taken them then there would be no body to be found.
Sea eagles were only wiped out relatively recently in the UK less than 100yrs ago IIRC.
https://www.scotsman.com/news-2-15012/sea-eagles-not-taking-lambs-to-slaughter-1-781555
Christ wolves, look at the fuss when farmers were told to stop shooting crows!!!!
Considering most of these species were here before us and we removed them, it does seem a rather selfish viewpoint to say they shouldn't be here.
However, I'm not disregarding the opinion as it isn't unique and does show concerns rather than just a simple No as I don't like them answer.
The silence of the outcry of gamekeepers allegedly taking out other birds of prey (allegedly) is deafening too.
Why not? We all wear baggies. Or is this thread not about Black Country football teams?
It’s not really an issue.
It's strange what people's perceptions are. SaxonRider includes coyotes and lynx in the list but I struggle to believe that animals that small can pose any significant risk to humans.
The one animal that that is probably the number one predator on humans rarely makes the list. I can't think of any animal other than crocodiles for whom humans would be a perfectly natural part of their diet. And yet crocodiles are rarely the first animal that people think of when asked about animals dangerous to humans.
Certainly pumas and bears pose a real risk to humans in North America but I suspect that the risk is probably over stated. Specially in the case of bears.
Wolves have over the centuries evolved to have a deep fear of humans, it's only those that have survived.
If they are ever reintroduced into the UK I really wouldn't worry, cows will still be the animal most likely to kill you.
Avoid wearing a red hoodie whilst riding the trails, not because of the big bad wolf, but because it'd make look like a ****.
I've always found this video to be interesting and pretty good at convincing me that reintroduction would be a good thing.
Yup they've learnt their lesson about getting too close.
The silence of the outcry of gamekeepers allegedly taking out other birds of prey (allegedly) is deafening too.
Its not silence up here and there is no allegedly about it. Its well proven. 30% of all raptors meat an early death at the hands of the hunting shooting fishing community
We are awaiting the results of the werritty report into the action that the scots government will take. this is on the back of the proven raptor persecution.
I don’t see how a wolf would be any differet other than there will be more than one.
Dogs are just belligerent, wolves are out to hunt and kill.
Re eagles, crofting is indeed a tradition in Scotland, but so are sea eagles.
firstly I really do struggle with the concept of creatures being introduced in order to provide theme-park entertainment for the public.
That's not it. If that were the goal there'd just be a safari park. Wolves should be a part of the British landscape, and they're not because we've ****ed it up. Rewilding is an attempt to get back some of the beauty and wonder that we've lost. In fact you could argue that by sanitising our landscape and removing anything inconvenient what we currently have is more of a theme park. Also, reintroducing a proper functioning food chain has a hugely beneficial effect on the ecosystems. I've read that bears eating salmon at the heads of rivers and then shitting is the key final link in a nutrient cycle, bringing nutrients back up into the mountains from the sea. Also, have a Google for the effects of reintroducing wolves into Yellowstone. The knock on effects were hugely positive for biodiversity and habitat quality.
Re the OP, I would not ride differently no, cos I know how rare attacks are. I would be far more concerned about bears.
Sea eagles do not take many if any lambs – apart from sickly ones or dead ones. Thats a simple observed fact. There are not enough sea eagles to cause that much predation anyway. More likely to be predation from other sources and if the eagles had taken them then there would be no body to be found.
On Countryfile a couple of weeks ago they showed footage of a lamb being carried through the air by a sea eagle. It was screaming and struggling so clearly alive. There was also footage of an eagle being scared off a corpse on which it was feeding. IIRC there was some stat from the farmers about the increased losses since the eagles returned - far more than could be co-incidental. I'm not against sea eagles being re-introduced in the IOW but the damaged to farmers must be considered.
As for Wolves and Lynx etc, well the conservationist at the Highland Wildlife Park was very against it on the basis that they would be sharing habitat with the Scottish Wildcat very much hastening their demise.
We have irreversibly changed the habitats across the UK and whilst it would be great to turn the clock back 200 years, we need to be very, very careful with further mucking around with our ecosystems.
It does rather beg the question cinnamon_girl, was it OK to wipe out sea-eagles in the first place because they were interfering with farming activities?
An interesting topic and one that I'm no stranger to.
Next month I'll be back in Michigan seeing the family and will be heading to the UP for a few days riding, where both wolves and black bears roam.
I've a 'Timber' brand bear bell which I fit to my bike when riding in Michigan, which makes enough racket to let wildlife know I'm around, but I also carry a Kahr CW45 in a shoulder holster just in case. The chance of being attacked by wildlife is incredibly slim though.
Apparently they would normally expect 75% of their lambs to survive each year but since the arrival of sea eagles this has reduced to 50%. They were losing half of the lambs meaning a huge financial hit year after year and it was becoming unsustainable as obviously nobody reimburses or compensates them. Dead lambs were shown and not a pretty sight, no question it was sea eagles who’d killed them.
Killed, but not eaten? Not sure the whole picture is being revealed there.
It certainly is not!
The science is clear. Sea eagles are not a significant predator of lambs. They would not kill a lamb and leave it.
Definitely. I would only ride with those who are slower than me.
I was attacked& bitten by two dogs whilst riding last year.Scared the bejesus out of me. So it’s a no from me.
A number of points to make in this thread
* Wolves are ****ing huge! Ever seen one up close? They are the size of a big Irish wolfhound. It wouldn't be like getting nipped by next doors Springer Spaniel called Dennis.
* Rewilding is more than just a "zoo" for humans, it's about producing habitat that contributes to our share in the reduction of our impact on this planet. Why is it okay to ask Brazil to stop deforestation to save the planet, yet our ecosystem has been stripped naked?
* Cinnamongirl, in regards to the Sea Eagles - we have to be seen to be doing something to protect or reintroduce our own species unless we want to be accused of hypocrisy on the international stage. Does the ivory trade bother you?
* On the topic of Canada and America, a lot of hikers and mountain bikers carry .357 and above revolvers, deaths are rare but actual incidents are not that rare. So perhaps some though needs to be given as to whether we are happy either having more firearms or accepting an increased risk in the wild.
Oh and Drac - that picture is brilliant - just brilliant.
No.
The risk of attack from a wolf is miniscule. You are in much more danger of falling off and killing yourself or being involved in a collision with a motor vehicle.
Drac wins todays internet.
I've ridden in arctic Finland in winter on my own for days on end - there are plenty of wild wolves, but there are also plenty of reindeer. Even people who spent lots of time there rarely see one. There are far more worrying things like not dying of cold to think about and if I did die, I wouldn't care less if I did end up on the menu.
Back to wolves. the main reason it will never happen is that there is no suitable habitat for them in large enough chunks. If they were moving in overland as has happened on the mainland then its differnt - you have to manage the animals. But to reintroduce them into a country with no suitable large tracts of habitat would be foolish at best
The whole of scotland is only 8 times the size of yellowstone. That includes the central belt and the lowlands.
The guy at atterdale ( I think thats the estate) that wanted to reintroduce wolves wanted to fence off a large tract of land to keep them in knowing full well that without fencing they would move. Attadale I went thru last year. Its very nice in some ways but its a park not wild land.
Even the most fervent advocates for wolf reintroduction accept that they need to be contained in fencing - and of course fencing causes its own issues. NO mainstream conservation organisation supports wolf reintroduction
TJ there are wolves in the Netherlands. That's one of the most densely populated countries in the world.
(not to suggest I disagree with your summary otherwise).
it will never happen
I agree with TJ. Bit of a wacky idea that keeps getting trotted out by gullible sections of the media.
scotroutes - its different when they move in of their own accord, actively bringing makes those who bring them in responsible for the actions of the wolves. I very much doubt those wolves will be there in a few years - a lot of controversy in the netherlands about them and my bet is they will end up being removed one way or another.
The netherlands is having a bit of a crisis / national debate about rewilding and land management at the moment and my bet is it ends with the wolves being removed
I could be 100m from a wolf right now. Cycling in the Veluwe national park in Netherlands and wolves have been sighted here last week.
Totally awesome in my opinion.
Wolves are coming back to the mountains round here (central Spain/Madrid), a pack's already been spotted about 30km from where I regularly run and ride... but the key thing is the word "spotted" - they're not like the boar or mountain goats which are pretty easy to see, they're skittish animals that avoid human contact as much as possible.
The one race of people, the First Nations of North America took it as their responsibility, for their own survival, to maintain the balance of them, nature and thei environment.
And this is bollocks. Humans turned up on the north American continent, fauna went extinct.
The wolves in the Netherlands are not a pack. they are wanderers from Germany. They are not a viable breeding population indeed from reports in the dutch press its not clear there are any settled wolves in the Netherlands nor any evidence of any breeding
The UK being an island you would need a big enough population to ensure genetic diversity. In mainland europe this is provided by the fact the wolves roam across borders so even small populations retain genetic diversity
So yes - there is probably a small number of wolves roaming in the Netherlands but this is not a pack nor a breeding population but some lone wanderers
I cannot remember how many individuals you need to have a stable breeding population with sufficient genetic diversity but from vague memory its hundreds
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/02/female-wolf-settles-in-the-netherlands-and-may-have-a-mate/
Wolves NO, Dragons or Bandersnatch might. Triffids, Slaver Sunflowers and Nort Bio-Wire would definitely add a frisson of risk too a mundane Sarf Downs ride.
I cannot remember how many individuals you need to have a stable breeding population with sufficient genetic diversity but from vague memory its hundreds
I seem to remember 50 - 500 animals dependent on species, can’t remember where I saw that though, that would suggest any uk introductions would need management.
Edit: Wikipedia states 500 for terrestrial vertebrates without inbreeding/ genetic problems.
Now you are talking Ming.
The triffids tv series gave me a fear of large plants that lasts today!
bsims
I think rewilding is a good idea, on the wolves front I can’t see it happening south of the Highlands
It's a crap idea because the Highlands were never "wild". Humans moved in as the ice retreated and there were large numbers of them living in the mountains. They controlled the populations of predators.
If there are going to be species reintroduced, then it should be humans and their livestock.
The "wild" lands were forcibly depopulated and turned into the empty bogs and deer zoo you now see. The Highlands used to have a larger population than the Lowlands before the Clearances.
As for wolves being afraid of man, that's understandable, they're smart predators and will only take on something they can take down relatively safely.
They'll never touch us because they quickly learn what guns can do.
Oh...
Yup, definitely a crap idea. And it's actually really the thin edge of the wedge to get round the right to roam laws in Scotland and to restrict access.
Oh, we need to put up a big fence all the way round the estate to keep the wolves in. Only £50 to pass through and see the wolves etc etc...
@ epicyclo
I'm not just talking about the highlands. If Wolves are not viable in the highlands like I think they are not in the rest of the UK then fair enough, but that does not mean that rewilding should take place elsewhere. Putting up fences is not really rewilding and has been done as part of trial introductions, with a view as far as I am aware, to remove if the trial is successful.
Are you saying that other animals besides humans did not move into the Highlands after the Ice age? Do you have a source for your point?
bsims
...Are you saying that other animals besides humans did not move into the Highlands after the Ice age? Do you have a source for your point?
Of course I'm not saying that, but the predators would have been kept under control and exterminated where possible, in the same way any other pastoral community does not tolerate their livestock or children being food for predators.
The netherlands is having a bit of a crisis / national debate about rewilding and land management at the moment and my bet is it ends with the wolves being removed
A very large portion of the Nederlands was tidal until humans put in place barriers and pumps and turned it to productive farmland.
Sea Eagles around the IoW will be a different proposition to the highlands; the IoW doesn’t have a large number of hill farmers with sheep, it’s a far more populous island, and the sea eagles will likely keep to matching fish, or scavenging carrion.
Which is what the majority of highland losses to eagles are; dead and sickly lambs.
In the area where I live in France, wolves have been known to attack and eat sheeps. 75 last year. Never seen one.
Farmers use large dogs called Patou to defend their animals.
Epicyclo-
Accepted, but do you not think that having native (since last glacial period) predators would help the ecosystem? Especially give that the highlands should be Taiga which make it unique in the UK.
I do think that there would have to be management of large predators but there would be a reduced need to manage the large herbivores.
bsims
Accepted, but do you not think that having native (since last glacial period) predators would help the ecosystem?
No, because without reintroducing the totality of the human and pastoral element of the previous eco system they are trying to "restore" it's just another zoo project.
They're just trying to foist aesthetic environmentalism with attractive fluffy beasties on us (and restrict our access).
Probably the best thing would be to remove all financial incentives and subsidies that the huge landowners have gathered to themselves over the years, put a stop to killing for fun, and tax their businesses just like every other business.
I don't think the highlands would ever have been Taiga. Temperate rain forest? There is a few bits of arctic and sub arctic stuff but thats only on the high mountain plateaus
epicyclo-
Fair enough, I think that climatic climax vegetation is preferable to meso climax. I don’t agree with fencing off. Human management of the highlands as per you description is artificial, through technology and therefore is not a natural ecosystem.
I agree with your point about financial incentives for slaughter of wildlife.
tjagain-
Temperate rainforest on the west coast at low level, higher up dominated by Scots pine surely that is boreal forest?
I bow to your knowledge!
I wouldn’t there’s not much of it and what is there is remembered from others people’s😀
Edit: scrub that I’ll take it as a compliment😃
I think that climatic climax vegetation is preferable to meso climax
Disturbance tends to increase species diversity though.
As does leaving it alone for millions of years!
I suppose something like the South Downs makes your point with lots of endangered species which would be extinct if it wasn’t for the human activity.
SaxonRider curious as to how you went about your sporting activities with such a collection of wild animals around, what precautions did you take, were solo mountain bike rides out of the question? Thanks.
Depends where it was. In the Rockies, I was honestly terrified of grizzlies. I know it was probably slightly irrational, but I had a hard time enjoying hiking due to fear of grizzlies. Then once, on a solo ride outside of Kamloops, I became convinced that, in the silence of the forest, I was being stalked by a mountain lion. After a long, long climb, it finally became too much, and I turned around and tore down the mountain side. I have never descended anything so quickly in life! Honestly, terror is a good motivator. Of course, I am sure I imagined everything.
In the East, where grizzlies don’t live, it was all black bears. And generally bears aren’t predatory. They can be, but it’s rare. I was always conscious of them, but the fear of them wasn’t debilitating for me. Meanwhile, coyotes would just watch you, and wolves would stay out of your way.
So really, you’re conscious of all the creatures out there, but (terror of grizzlies and imagined mountain lions aside) you learn to deal with them. We even had lessons in school to that end.
Imagined or not, I remember going skiing early season in Banff just weeks after a xc skier was stalked and killed by a mountain lion. We didn't ski alone!
Rewilding will be happening probably post Brexit when the subsidy regime that keeps subsistence sheep farming going will get the bullet (except for national parks) and something that actually acts as a carbon sink and a ecological benefit can be done
Why pay farmers to farm the most ecologically damaging form of livestock in areas where without the subsidy they would go busy as the over supply of the meat and fleece means they get buttons for it from the market?
It's bonkers!
There is a massive opportunity to change the landscape and create something that future generations will see as a turning point to actually create a green and pleasant land
Brexit point scoring on a thread about wolves. I didn't see that coming.
Still, "Wolves for Brexit" sounds like a good slogan. Where do I get the tee-shirt?
A call for arms because of wolves and Brexit will introduce them. 😂
As does leaving it alone for millions of years!
But given thats not really an option unless we have a time machine
"rewilding" - what point in time do you want to go back to? Thats the false premise behind rewilding
Nowhere in the UK has been truely wild for many thousands of years. Others will know more than me but the type of ecosystme in the UK post ice ages has changed many times. Personally taking it back about 500 years would be a decent aim - increase forest cover significantly.
Epicyclo is right tho. the highlands needs people and employment or else it just becomes a huge park.
tjagain
The netherlands is having a bit of a crisis / national debate about rewilding and land management at the moment and my bet is it ends with the wolves being removed
I had a wee smile at the thought of rewilding the Netherlands.
Reintroducing the missing species there would mean opening the floodgates surely...
800 or so years ago there was no IJsselmeer in the netherlands. It was all land out to where the Afsluitdijk is. A great flood flooded the central flat plain of the Netherlands. further floods in the 19th and 20th centuries flooded more of the central Netherlands leading to the building of the Afsluitdijk to protect the remaining land.
so rewilding the netherlands would ean lifting much of the country up by 10 m. 😉
The Cairngorms Connect project is probably the most far-sighted rewilding project we have in the UK and that's looking out about 200 years. Still only covers 600 sq km though and some of the areas it butts up against are amongst the worse for poor land management practices (including Balmoral).
http://cairngormsconnect.org.uk/
Meanwhile, there was a big song and dance about protecting the few beavers we have but the Scottish Government has issued 170 licences to farmers to allow them to "control" the numbers on their land. 🤔
Would that be the spey valley beavers rather than the knapdale ones? The spey valley population is getting quite large and its not really a good place for them - they would never have been introduced there. The population comes from illegal / accidental releases does it not?
Its always going to be an issue - sharing land between farming and wild animals.
One thing I would say tho is to often we concentrate on the bad news, raptor persecution etc but in the time I have been wandering around the highlands much has changed for the better. 40+ years ago seeing a buzzard was an event. Now they are everywhere. I didn't see a golden eagle until 10 years ago. since then I have seen a good few. Some estates have adopted much more conservation orientated land management practices and native tree cover is increasing and obviously so. Its not all bad news.
Sure a lot more could be done but the SNPs policy of enabling community land purchase is reaping its rewards in improving stewardship of the land. Even some grouse estates are improving. ( while many are still monoculture "green deserts"
the key thing we need now IMO is far better management and control of shooting estates via licensing. the Werrity report is going to be interesting as will be the governments response to it.
Tayside.
As long as Fergus Ewing is involved we'll see little positive change or control over the green deserts.
Thats the ones I meant not speyside - doh!
Thats why the Werrity report is going to be very interesting. given the evidence its going to be very hard for Ewing to refuse action unless Werrity bottles it
The SNP are going to have to face up to this issue. Its difficult for them but given the last GE results the snp seem to have lost the huntin shootin fishin lot anyway.
Wolves? Meh..
Badgers.
I hope that wont re introduce them. Many reasons but mainly because they scare the shit out of me. Im fat and slow and ideal prey for one.
in reality i cant ever seeing it happen. Have you seen how thick people are these days. introducing an apex predator wouldnt end well.
It’s a crap idea because the Highlands were never “wild”. Humans moved in as the ice retreated and there were large numbers of them living in the mountains. They controlled the populations of predators.
Humans are part of the natural fauna of the planet. Even Neolithic hunter gatherers changed their environment (see North America) but so do loads of other animals large and small. But there comes a point in history where humans become so populous that they destroy an unreasonable amount of other environments beyond what is really necessary. Humans need food so we destroy enormous areas of natural habitat to feed ourselves.
However, in the case of the Highlands, we aren't really using it to feed ourselves. If the clearances hadn't happened then I doubt we'd be having this discussion - we'd no more be suggesting re-wilding in Scotland than we would in Yorkshire. As you will know the clearances happened because the landowners wanted to make a bit of cash. That imperative has now moved on, so we're left with a very large area of land with few people, no predators and runaway deer population which is also causing ecological havoc. Ecosystems can be improved by restoring some balance points. Doing so improves biodiversity both with the animals they introduce and the effects those animals have.
Question for you, epicyclo - do you agree with the re-introduction of wolves to Yellowstone in the USA? Of course it's a large area of low population, but it still falls foul of the arguments you presented. Yellowstone is always going to be a 'managed' wilderness, but it's still the better for having wolves in it, don't you think?
