[Closed] Would 34% of the UK vote for such a far right politician like Le Pen?

I'd like to think not.

Given what Brexit unleashed possibly, you also have to remember the difference between a 2 person vote and voting for somebody, her 1st round figure sounded plausible.

I think the 34% figure is deceptive. @europeelects has put up some interesting graphics during the course of the election rounds which indicate that it's not a general murmur of FN support throughout France, rather than regional partisan/historical undertones.

For example, first round results, might suggest a wider underlying FN problem,
Grey: Le Pen (FN-ENF)
Yellow: Macron (EM-*)
Blue: Fillon (LR-EPP)
Red: Mélenchon (FI-LEFT)
[img] [/img]

but in the second round once the "vote splitting" of Fillon and Melenchon had cleared away
[img] [/img]

and what was most telling was that there was not a shift towards Le Pen once others had dropped away, her support was solid, and consistent, but limited. And demonstrably only really in the NE region and also interestingly catholic/conservative Med.

[img] :large[/img]

Melenchon should hang his head though.

“We can’t really call this a choice,” Melenchon said. “The nature of the two candidates makes it impossible to come out of this with stability.”

“One because he’s the extreme of finance, the other because she’s the extreme right,”

There's really no equivalence except in the mind of a fruitloop. Yes, the nation didnt need his endorsement to avoid voting in Le Pen, but it makes him look like a dick.

IMO if we're going to be calling Jeremy Corbyn hard-left we should be calling Theresa May hard-right. UKIP have been destroyed because the Tories have lurched so far to the right. The supposed centre has shifted a long way.

the Tory's are way more central than Le Pen.

You sure about that? I'm not seeing any major differences.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38321401

Yes. In a heartbeat. Sadly. 🙁

I think UKIP were destroyed because they were a one issue protest party which has done its job. I don't anyone (beyond the seriously swivel-eyed) ever saw UKIP actually becoming the government.

Le Pen on the other hand seems to have done a remarkably good job of convincing more centrist voters that she is not "far right" whilst simultaneously holding onto support from the far right.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if someone could pull off the same trick in the UK.

How much of lepens support was a genuine belief and how much a hold your nose & protest vote?

She's gone to great lengths to detoxify her party.

Her first round 20% is probably a more accurate picture.

IMO if we're going to be calling Jeremy Corbyn hard-left we should be calling Theresa May hard-right. UKIP have been destroyed because the Tories have lurched so far to the right.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/is-marine-le-pen-really-far-right/

"you also have to remember the difference between a 2 person vote and voting for somebody"

This.

It's pretty bizarre that in NE France where the regions rely on cross-border business (particularly in Lorraine) they're voting overwhelmingly for someone who wouldn't help them:

Priority for French nationals in jobs, housing, welfare;
extra tax on foreign workers and imports

All I see with this is a huge amount of tit for tat which would really work well for Germany and Belgium but poorly for Alsace-Lorraine in particular as cross-border working is a necessity. It's ironic that the message that is getting to areas of highest unemployment is not one where they are told how damaging Le Pen's policies could be to them but one where they feel she has their back. That said, it's hardly a surprise given 2016's elections.

However, for the OP, I absolutely believe that if the UK got down to candidates like Macron and LePen, plenty of British people would vote for the LePen candidate.

She's gone to great lengths to detoxify her party.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/13/world/europe/marine-le-pen-national-front-party.html

How much of lepens support was a genuine belief and how much a hold your nose & protest vote?

Similar to the Brexit vote...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/is-marine-le-pen-really-far-right/

What's your point Stoner, that Marine Le Pen is actually not that right-wing just tainted by association with her father? Which kinda proves my point that her and TM aren't that far apart.

that use of far-right and far-left labelling leaves little room to define what historically was genuinely far-right and far-left politics that make today's lot look wishy-washy.

I wouldnt necessarily say TM and LP are "not that far apart" but can understand why you might. But I would say that if you call TM "Far-right" what on earth do you call Le Pen Sr?

re Stoners link

UKIP, FN, vote leave, Trump etc are smart enough to blow the dog whistle rather than be straight up racist (lets call them the alt-right)

It allows them to gather the support of the hardcore racist (far right) and and the honest patriot who doesnt like the way their country has changed (right wing) or those that just feel left behind (left wing or centerist)
PC culture, Globalisation, Immigration, Islam etc have been painted as the bogeymen of the alt-right, lumped together as a convenient pinata.

Sadly none of those things are the solution to the inequalities that are imho the root cause of their dissatisfaction.

that use of far-right and far-left labelling leaves little room to define what historically was genuinely far-right and far-left politics that make today's lot look wishy-washy.

I wouldnt necessarily say TM and LP are "not that far apart" but can understand why you might. But I would say that if you call TM "Far-right" what on earth do you call Le Pen Sr?

I agree Stoner though I was using the term 'hard left/right' which to me (maybe wrongly) seems slightly less extreme but I do think it can equally well be applied to both the main parties in the UK (or neither). Both have shifted a fair way away from the centre.

It really depends on turn-out, but at the moment no under the current structure no.

We saw it time and again between 2005 and 2015 the 'rise of UKIP' era, okay they might not be the full FN, well until they think they're behind closed doors and amongst friends anyway, but if you hard right of thinking and want to win - they're who you'd vote for.

Their supporters and those of FN are very engaged, they will take any and all opportunities to vote and make their voice heard, where as most people who just want to get on with their life usually won't bother. So the Euro Elections, which had an appalling turn out, they did well, local elections (not the most recent one) they didn’t well - they expected to do well in 2015, but for a General Election a lot more people will bother to vote and they pulled 12%, they'll probably get less than half that next month.

That's as close as they'll ever get too, once a new party starts polling at their sort of level one of the big two with evolve to take their following back, as we've seen with the UKIP Lite current Tories.

The thing is, can you take Le Pen and FN at face value? As soon as the results were in she was talking about the next rebranding to make FN more acceptable, but it's obvious that a lot of the party isn't behind that, or are behind it until it gets them into power. So were people voting for the real animal or the semi-respectable veneer?

What's interesting is that Hitler got about 34% of the vote in 1932 and look where that ended up....

What's interesting is that Hitler got about 34% of the vote in 1932 and look where that ended up....

What was interesting about that was support for the Nazi Party was on the wane, the 33.1 was down from 37.2 a year earlier. Even when they suspended most civil liberties they were unable to win an absolute majority in parliament.

There's a small window of opportunity for extremist parties, when economies hit the buffers, Adolf was lucky the establishment caved in and gave him the reigns of power when the German Economy was already starting to grow, another couple of years it might well have been a completely different story.

"What was interesting about that was support for the Nazi Party was on the wane, the 33.1 was down from 37.2 a year earlier. Even when they suspended most civil liberties they were unable to win an absolute majority in parliament."

This. One of the BBC history podcasts covered the topic of Hitler's 'popularity'. 37pc when your private army has bullied the other parties out of existence is pretty piss poor.

If you can force yourself to read the comments sections in some Daily Mail stories or the comments some Facebook content it is clear that there are plenty of people around who would happily vote for a politician like Le-Pen. I doubt they make up 35% of voters though

The only person to be more soundly defeated in the final round of voting was Le Pen senior...

I think whats interesting is the people like Gove & Johnson were able to sell some pretty unpleasant 'not overtly racist but....' lies about Turkey joining the EU for example and then quietly slip back into the respectable Tory party after the referendum, even Zac Goldsmith wants another pop.

theres obviously a grey area between the alt-right and traditional right wing that canny politicians can operate in

If you can force yourself to read the comments sections in some Daily Mail stories or the comments some Facebook content

This is where the "bots" are working, unfortunately there are enough weak minded ****ing idiots who succumb to the peer pressure of the fake group. It reminds me of the anti cycling stupidity, some "journalist" writes anti-cycling bile click bate and it empowers morons to hate.

Seen from where I am Madame may is one step right-wing nationalist of Marine Le pen's programme on the following.

Europe
The Euro
Freedom of movement
Health care
The benefits system
Taxation
The police state

Compare and make your own minds up.

Have a read. Tory policy is

Yep, more than 34% will be voting for Theresa May who in my view is not a lot different.

Yes, historically the FN were way right of Tories but they are pretty close these days.

Edukator - Reformed Troll

Seen from where I am Madame may is one step right-wing nationalist of Marine Le pen's programme on the following.

No no no, Theresa May has taken the centre ground, don't you know? Laura Kuennsberg says so.

(this is pretty interesting psychology, though- pretty much wherever the majority right are, they claim is the centre, and now pretty much wherever the left are, they claim as loony far left communism. Ed Miliband was a commie, Barack Obama was a commie, apparently Hilary Clinton was a "leftist"...

Meanwhile, the left generally aren't that happy about being called far left when it's untrue, but are quite happy to be the left.

Basically one side feels the desperate need to lie about what they are and the other doesn't. Glad I'm on the side that doesn't )

They would, in a heartbeat.

I think many of us prefer to ignore that racism and bigotry is far more prevalent than often perceived.

And it's not just the right that's guilty, particularly when it comes to prejudices against those with religious beliefs.

They would, in a heartbeat.

So why have the likes of the NF, BNP, EDL failed spectacularly when attempting to get elected?

If the UK is full of slobbering, racist bigots why didn't they vote for them?

UKIP took 12.6% of the vote in 2015.

If the UK is full of slobbering, racist bigots why didn't they vote for them?

Because there was something on offer that would suffice and doesn't involve broadcasting their beliefs.

So why have the likes of the NF, BNP, EDL failed spectacularly when attempting to get elected?

If the UK is full of slobbering, racist bigots why didn't they vote for them?

Because racism was/is their only policy, if they dressed it up with some other stuff on tax, education, the NHS etc like FN, then I suspect they would do equally as well.

UKIP took 12.6% of the vote in 2015.

So you think everyone who voted for UKIP is a racist?

That party may have some very unpleasant people involved but that doesn't mean everyone who voted for them is a racist. Misguided possibly but not all racist.

[quote=gobuchul ]So why have the likes of the NF, BNP, EDL failed spectacularly when attempting to get elected?

As explained above, because they're the unreformed face of the right. Le Pen succeeded in repositioning herself as being far more moderate than that (without necessarily really changing her views).

[quote=gobuchul ]So you think everyone who voted for UKIP is a racist?

Do you think everybody who voted for Le Pen is?

Do you think everybody who voted for Le Pen is?

No probably not.

Well there you go then - yes a similar politician could get similar support here (including with relief from all those people who don't like to think of themselves as racist).

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/long-labour-insist-tory-voters-evil-guarantee-party-will-lose/amp/

As so often illustrated by Northwind et al:

Calling Tories evil isn’t political thinking. It’s quasi-religious thinking, a puritanical division of the world into the saved true believers and the ideological damned.

And yet, those damned are part of the nation that Labour supposedly seeks to govern; more than that, Labour cannot govern unless it reclaims swing voters from the Tories.

This attitude – that the public has revealed itself to be Tory, and so deserves to get Toried right in the face – is both endemic and self-destructive.

When Nye Bevan called Tories “lower than vermin”, he was (at least notionally) talking about policy makers rather than voters; it was the Tory opposition who framed it as an insult against the electorate.

Now, some leftists are happy to take that Pyrrhic rhetorical step entirely on their own. They even wear it as a T-shirt.

the same applies to the "left's" view of the be-courdroyed kippers, only they're just 11/10 on the scale of racist evil bastards. All of them, because you know, it's black n white innit.

Similar percentage to those who supported Brexit and that was led by LePen-esque figures, so yes could easily happen here.

Edit: actually I think LePen's policies were actually less extreme than the Brexit campaign with its posters of people who weren't white.

All of them, because you know, it's black n white innit.

This /\/\

The examples that's lead me to the belief I stated on the previous page aren't Tory voters.

Stoner - Member

As so often illustrated by Northwind et al:

Excuse me? Care to come with one example?

(except IDS obviously, he actually is evil)

Stoner, plenty of lefties on here have little faith in a corbyn victory, nor do they believe that all tory voters are racist

not even that all tories politicians are racist!
Its more that they are happy to capitalise on the racism of others, see farage migrant swarm poster the day before gove/johnson warned us of turkey joining the EU.

I dont think all of that 52% were racist, Im just dissapointed that they chose to side with some who absolutely were

apologies for singling you out specifically Northwind, but the sentiment in here from the left (and I think you'll concede you're "of the left") is so invariable along the lines of "all those that vote Tory are evil". Because evil things.

I dont think all of that 52% were racist, Im just dissapointed that they chose to side with some who absolutely were

There are substantial numbers of labour voters and probably even more than a few green voters that will have voted "out". I cant believe you side with such people!?!?

Ascribing any one motivation to an entire group because of single democratic act is utterly ridiculous. And if not motivation, it's often culpability instead.

currently doing the rounds on the oh-so-funny tiwtter left echo chamber
[img] [/img]

is so invariable along the lines of "all those that vote Tory are evil". Because evil things.

[img] [/img]

There are substantial numbers of labour voters and probably even more than a few green voters that will have voted "out". I cant believe you side with such people!?!?

Stoner - would you agree that certain of the leaders of the Brexit campaign, say Farage, look very much like LePen, and actually the Brexit campaigns policies (EU, Euro for example, though she did chop and change a bit) were slightly more extreme that LePen's?
And on that basis it is virtually factual that a LePen type character in a two horse race in Britain could poll 35%+ of the vote? - which was the original question.

who's the other horse?

Much of the debate in france was framed around a hobsons choice of Melenchon/Le Pen being the two anti-establishment candidates and the electorate fed up to the back teeth of the establishment parties.

Once into the second round though, the context was an easier sell between extremist and capitalist (remember Le Pen is a protectionist closer to hard left in economics than conservative) and, yes, how on earth can that have been a "tough" choice? But were there to have been a "centrist" establishment alternative I dont doubt that actually Le Pen would not have got anywhere near 35% and the same would apply if our own Le Pen were in a two horse versus say, May, Farron, or Ummuna/Lewis/Sharmer*

* I cant bring myself to believe Corbyn could ever be a viable candidate even in a thought experiment 😀

(EDIT: my post edit crossed your "Corbyn" 😀 )

Corbyn 😈

So who would you pick a sociopath who cares only about being elected or a dreamer who wants a fairer society?

Stoner - Member

apologies for singling you out specifically Northwind, but the sentiment in here from the left (and I think you'll concede you're "of the left") is so invariable along the lines of "all those that vote Tory are evil". Because evil things.

Yes I'm very much of the left and thanks for the apology, but... you've imagined that I think "all those that vote Tory are evil", maybe you should take a step back and ask if you're imagining it elsewhere too? It's absolute nonsense. Even people who think the Tory party are evil don't believe all their voters are evil, unless they're out of their minds.

So who would you pick a sociopath who cares only about being elected or a dreamer who wants a fairer society?

seems rather limited options.

Can we not choose between a professional politician who only cares about being elected and a dreamer who wants to euthanise all of Wales?

Since when is a National Socialist party 'far right' ?

****s sake, if you think all Tories or their voters are Evil, or Racist or both you're wrong, they're Xenophobic, they hate and fear white people born a few miles away over the channel too, but seriously some are probably some of those things, it’s a scale not a yes/no type thing. If the Tories are evil, it’s greed that drives them, Xenophobia is just as easily be a socialist driver and if history tells us anything it usually is – not because they don’t like dark people, but because they want to protect jobs but closing free trade with the rest of the world.

[quote=enfht ]Since when is a National Socialist party 'far right' ?

when it wants to euthanise all of [s]Wales[/s] Jews would be a good sign

Since when is a National Socialist party 'far right' ?

Since when is a Democratic Peoples Republic a 'dictatorship'?
Although admittedly the Nazis use of the name is a tad more complex with the multiple factions in its early days. The Night of Long Knives though pretty much removed the left leaning part of the party

Le Pen is a protectionist closer to hard left in economics than conservative

Strangely the hard right often is. But then sometimes it's not.

and a dreamer who wants to euthanise all of Wales?

Is this Tory Policy now?

It may appear radical now, but I can see all the parties offering this in the next few years..

Although admittedly the Nazis use of the name is a tad more complex

Didn't the Nazi's have a left wing economic policy?

my outie parents have been labour voters previously,
Im having this argument with them, my dad is still ardent that the positives of brexit will outweigh the negatives and will be voting for May

This is an interesting view of priorities but also that Brexit is not a Labour/Conservative thing. I believe the great Tony Benn would have voted Leave after all.
Difficult for me to comprehend voting for May as a leftie and a remainer but wonder how I would feel if I strongly supported a severe Brexit. Would I throw all my other ideals out of the window, I surely hope not.

Didn't the Nazi's have a left wing economic policy?

great Tony Benn would have voted Leave after all

Great?
Or just mouthy?

As for the 34% I think thats a little less than we have in this country, more like 52% (give or take)
Sadly I do think this country has turned into mild mannered Racists, not overt Racists just the ones that secretly don't like anyone different to them. Fine to have your bathroom done by a bunch of very experienced, very cheap, and reliable, Polish builders but underneath your breath despise them for it and the cash you pay them...
and buy your sandwiches from Tesco, which are made on the A1, in a factory employing an overwhelming majority of 'foreigners" yet not want to pay anymore than £1.90 on a chicken flavoured sodden slop in a cardboard surround.. and ignore the fact that those sandwiches have been "touched".

Casual racism is rife in this country, I was shocked and saddened by the In/Out vote and the build up and post vote and the openness that racism is now an accepted, nay encouraged.

But thankfully the French have voted correctly.

And I now view everyone with suspicion and mistrust.

Im having this argument with them, my dad is still ardent that the positives of brexit will outweigh the negatives and will be voting for May

Didn't the Nazi's have a left wing economic policy?

As for the 34% I think thats a little less than we have in this country, more like 52% (give or take)
Sadly I do think this country has turned into mild mannered Racists, not overt Racists just the ones that secretly don't like anyone different to them. Fine to have your bathroom done by a bunch of very experienced, very cheap, and reliable, Polish builders but underneath your breath despise them for it and the cash you pay them...

What a load of utter tosh! We are one of the most multi-cultural and diverse nations on Earth.

Nah, it ain't tosh.

Multicultural we maybe, but it's clearly been proven we're a nation of casual racists.

Over to you, you clearly don't like what I've written.

"Watches with suspicion"

What a load of utter tosh! We are one of the most multi-cultural and diverse nations on Earth.

Aye. And a quick look suggests you're a Londoner bikebouy. Who on earth are you mixing with to get that kind of idea?

13% of Britons weren't born here. So plenty of room for, shall we call it, delusions of national superiority in the rest of the population.

Anyway the May has since last summer been trying along with the Brexy press to create a monoculture. Hence the enemies, saboteurs, and we're all Brexies now statements.

She is definitely trying to kill off diversity and multiculturalism.

She is definitely trying to kill off diversity and multiculturalism.

Now I don't like May but how is she doing this?

The net migration thing, (which has failed anyway) won't change the diverse and multicultural society we already have.

So what policies is she advocating to "kill off diversity"?

"We are one of the most multi-cultural and diverse nations on Earth."

+1

The places I frequent are certainly multi-cultural and diverse, a wonderful range of nationalities and ethnicities everywhere I go. Work, social the lot.

OP it's a very good wuestion and the conversations bwtween my wofe amd her friends today was that its nit a good thing FN got 34%. Large parts if France feel let diwn by both the left and the right. A number of the candidates where very eurosceptic and raised immigratiin as a major policy issue.

As for the UK imagine you had a 2 party run iff between say UKIP and the Lib Dems. Its wasy to see UKiP getting 34% or maybe more.

As I posted years ago if the majornparties don't address voter concerns then outsiders will cone to fill the gap

vinnyeh - Member
What a load of utter tosh! We are one of the most multi-cultural and diverse nations on Earth.
Aye. And a quick look suggests you're a Londoner bikebouy. Who on earth are you mixing with to get that kind of idea?

Not my quote, that was someone else's.

I do frequent London, it's multicultural correct. I like it, in fact I think it's one of the best Cities in the world. I adore its variety of colour and race and language. It should be encouraged, not belittled like May and her Clan of right wingers are doing.
My statement above is very clear on my stance.

The political movement in the country is right wing, nobody can deny that. With that comes a fear and hatred of anyone different to themselves, thereby casual racism.

There's no need to turn this thread into a political standpoint, that threads alive and kicking on here already. This thread is about racism and the situation we have currently and a situation that we could face.

The political movement in the country is right wing, nobody can deny that. With that comes a fear and hatred of anyone different to themselves, thereby casual racism.

So all Tory voters are racists?

"I do frequent London, it's multicultural correct. I like it, in fact I think it's one of the best Cities in the world. I adore its variety of colour and race and language."

So if you're not talking about London where are you talking about?

So what policies is she advocating to "kill off diversity"?

All the stuff about coming together, acting as one, crushing those who disagree.

Think as May does or be labelled a saboteur.

Nonsense. The whole point of a democracy is to be able to disagree freely.

crushing those who disagree.

When did she say that?

The whole point of a democracy is to be able to disagree freely.

And you can.

[img] [/img]

Thank you mrmo, I'm rubbish at posting pictures.

So Theresa May is the editor of the Daily Mail? 🙄

So Theresa May is the editor of the Daily Mail?

Has she or any member of the government condemned an attack on the judiciary reminiscent t of 1930s Germany?