[Closed] Workplace asbestos

For what its worth I think you're correct.

Why was this not detailed in the RAMS?

Sounds like you're being the grown up in the room here. There can be a bit too much hysteria around asbestos, but that sounds crazy having no secondary protection underneath

disclaimer*not directly involved in asbestos consultancy these days, lots of ex colleagues now own some of the biggest consultancies in the UK*.

on the postive side, they have an asbestos consultancy undetaking re-assurance air sampling...it should be at all stages of the job though not jist at the end and good analysts have their micrscopes with them so can undertake a fibrecount within minutes of finishing the sample. you are however correct in that there should ideally be measures in place to prevent any damage to ACMs or spread of fibres. it is also worth pointing out to the management that any detectable release of fibres or debris will cost thousands as it then needs a liscensed asbestos removals company to undertake a deep clean. in the past ive seen this wipe out many,many thousands of pounds of equipment and shut entire factory units for weeks, plus hse involvement and fines..... have a look on the hse website for case studies as there used to be quite a few.

taz- occupational health and safety specialist and consultancy manager with nearly 30 years experience.

Thanks for the info Taz.

We are good at dealing with specific asbestos jobs and have spent considerable sums over the years removing it.
My employer is a good clean COMAH site so used to regular HSE executive scrutiny - the issue with this roofing job is that asbestos is secondary to a main job and has been overlooked/under evaluated in my opinion.

I’m familiar with asbestos in an industrial setting, but is the real issue here the protection of the fragile ACM roof from damage due falling masonry?

Regardless of the ACM issue, are there no mitigation strategies for the falling debris entering the workplace below it? (Or am I misreading your post?)

All asbestos was removed from my sites years ago, so not 100% au fait with the regs, but without checking, I'm pretty sure that any work which results in the accidental disturbance of asbestos becomes RIDDOR reportable.

Actually a quick check on Croner:
According to the HSE website, situations where asbestos exposure is likely to meet the above definition includes where work is carried out on asbestos containing materials (ACMs) without adequate control measures and:

the use of power tools on most ACMs

work that leads to physical disturbance (knocking, breaking, smashing) of an ACM that should only be handled by a licensed contractor

manually cutting or drilling asbestos insulating board

work involving aggressive physical disturbance of asbestos cement, eg. breaking or smashing.

The HSE states that “if these activities are carried out without suitable controls, or the precautions fail to control exposure, these would be classed as a 'dangerous occurrence' under RIDDOR and should be reported”.

I'm sure your employer wouldn't want a RIDDOR dangerous occurrence on their stats (regardless of the moral argument) should a slate dislodge and drop on to the ACM

Futureboy77 - Senior QHSE Advisor

Your HSE advisor needs to step up and stop the job.

From a CDM point of view the roofing contractor should be provided with site information by a principal contractor (possibly your nationwide contractor, or the site itself). This should detail the presence of asbestos. The sub-contractor must put a control plan in place prior to the work, to the satisfaction of the employer.

The asbestos air-sampling would typically be used in case existing loose asbestos dust/ fibre becomes airborne from vibration/ air-movement, it's not adequate for physical disturbance of the parent material, even if this is secondary to the work.

You understand all this from the sound of it, anyway! (I'm PM for a construction firm btw).

I know nothing of this subject but yu sound bang on. Which coming from myself who can be a bit yeee haa means something must be up!

My issue is the lack of mitigation should the ACM be accidentally broken.

If it was my job my RA would be;

Likelyhood of someone dropping a tool/ice covered slate =5.
Consequence of broken ACM falling 50' onto a concrete floor to be then swept up by unknowing plant operator =5.

Therefore put protective measures in place. But that costs money and/or involves the maintenance manager actually thinking.

Work has carried on this morning - plant operaters underneath it all not happy. Meeting in 10mins about it.

Even if there wasn't asbestos present it doesn't sound ideal having "demolition" going on overhead. If it was outside on the street there would be a crash deck of some sort built under to protect pedestrians.

Therefore put protective measures in place. But that costs money and/or involves the maintenance manager actually thinking.

A net between the roofer and ACM is a damn site cheaper than no net and an asebestos release.

Ask to see the contractors risk assessment.

First, I agree with you.

Without knowing the site and the spacing between the tiled roof / ASM it's hard to form an opinion. if the gap is small creating a net / containment would be hard without removing the tiles first. as 136stu said, a crash deck that is encapped would be easiest below the ACM.

but if there is the potential of dropped objects falling onto the factory floor while people are working, all factory floor work needs to stop or install moving exclusion zones beneath the worksite.

jamie - working at height for 20 years

PS - HSE is your friend and whistleblowers are protected under employment law.

Sounds entirely reasonable to me. surely its only one step away from someone knocking one of the ACM tiles off and it landing on the production line or someone working on it?
Easy for me to say, as i'm not paying for it it but it seems doing the job properly would involve taking the opportunity to remove the ACM while they are at it.

That would probably be a massive undertaking though, and involve closing the production line down.

I would be interested to see what the HSE think! Well done for having the courage to stand up, its always so tempting not to rock the boat and keep your head down.

Not a hse pro but worked in an old powers station that was built from asbestos.

You are right. There should be secondary protection to potentiallystop the release of fibres. Air sampling isn’t protecting you from the now. It only serves to prove there was a release.

If there is a release that could effect health then it is reportable under RIDDOR
Do you have a union rep?

The meeting outcome is

The ceiling boards are cement based apparently.
Production is being stopped and area cleared and taped off to complete roof work.
All contractors tools to be lanyarded.

Air sampling after the final third of the roof area is finished - production commencing when given all clear.

Best I can do.

If you were to take the ACM completely out of the picture here, you have a potentially life threatening workplace.

If a slate is dropped (and this happens fairly regularly in roofing) it has the potential to break through the insulation tiles and drop the 50' to the shop floor.

At that height and with that type of material, if it hit you square on the top of the head it could quite simply kill you.

Yes, it's unlikely and yes it probably won't happen, but the possibility is still very real.

For that reason alone, measures need to be put into place to protect the workforce.

There can be a bit too much hysteria around asbestos,

Indeed.
There are pictures of the asbestos factories, and in them it shows a complete lack of any sort of dust extraction.
The people who worked in these factories, and later went on to develop the disease, went home with the dust in their hair, on their clothes, in their eyebrows even. They took it home and it got everywhere.
The pictures show fixtures and fittings in these factories with inched of asbestos dust sitting on them. Every surface had layers of it, even the lights above had thick inches of the dust sitting on their shades, the floors were covered, and every flat surface had the same thick coat of the dust on them.
I worked in a joinery/furniture makers that had scant extraction, and no air cleaners, so the dust was inches deep on all surfaces, tables, walls,lights, everywhere. I'd use a small brush to get the worst off my clothes when finishing, and in the evening, you could feel the dust in your eyebrows. We were surrounded all day in the dust of mdf and oak, as well as other toxic hardwood dusts.

If you find your plastered walls(artex) have an asbestos element, and you broke it off to replaster, it is unlikely you would develop asbestosis. It was the people who worked with it day after day, month after month, year after year that developed the disease. The people who went home with it ingrained in their hair,eyebrows and clothing that developed it, and also their families as they brought it home to become ingrained into their soft furnishings. Wives hoovering it from the house in general housework got the disease because it was everywhere about their homes.

I read that as two issues, unsafe asbestos fibre release and a significant risk from falling debris due to poorly planned demolition work.

Ring the number on this page https://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/concerns.htm NOW!!

They will on your premises ASAP and issuing prohibition notices and large bills for their attendance. That's before you factor in the clean-up costs.

is unlikely you would develop asbestosis. It was the people who worked with it day after day, month after month, year after year that developed the disease.

No just no.

is unlikely you would develop asbestosis. It was the people who worked with it day after day, month after month, year after year that developed the disease.

No just no.

We were in New York about 18 months ago and every TV ad was for lawyers for asbestos claims. When the WTC towers came down the whole of the region was exposed to all sorts of asbestos particles albeit relatively briefly. They are obviously expecting huge healthcare fallout in the near future.

No just no.

Fair enough, that is your opinion and I respect that.
But then explain why there arent millions of sufferers? when it was used and installed by contractors, in works and factories, in schools, in fact there our school had it on pipes, and much of it was loose, yet we didnt contract the disease.

Doesnt really add up does it ?,to have tens of millions of people in contact with asbestos and the dust didnt develop anything. Yet we know those who worked producing it did.

NHS factsheet - " For asbestosis to develop, prolonged exposure to relatively high numbers of the fibres is necessary. "

PROLONGED.

feel free to supply further 3 word explanations.

Dyna-ti......are you my maintenance manager? It sounds like you have the same risk attitude.

I expect to go home in the same state I came to work - why take a chance with my health for someone else's bottom line

One word answer on asbestosis is 'depends' - on the type of asbestos, how you were exposed to it (dust versus captive), how much you were exposed to (like a dust cloud akin to twin towers coming down versus what we all breath in the air), how frequently you were exposed.

One huge exposure can be sufficient to cause long term effects, it's unlikely in most cases but possible - especially in the worst case scenarios like WTC, but in that volume of dust in the air concrete dust is very dangerous.

My FIL worked with asbestos from time to time during construction - he suffers hugely from COPD and he can't play as he would like with grandkids.

A few years ago I had a similar issue. The MD was adament it was safe so the night before work started I had his desk moved so it was underneath the work.

He went along with it and was working away when mid morning a lump of ACM crashed down from the roof landing about 5m from his desk.

He took off like a scalded cat, the work stopped and appropriate measures put in place.

He still doesn't know that the board that crashed in front of him was a, not ACM, and b, dropped there by me.

Sometimes you have to bypass normal procedures 😁

I don't work there anymore.

Silca dust is the new Asbestosis a medical time bomb issue that will manifest itself in a few years time.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg463.htm

RCS has been a hazrd for years in the potteries and contruction industry. interesting that the UK gov and HSE havent adopted the IARC griup 1 carginogenic categorisation of respirable crystaline Silica as it would raise many many issues and claims cases.always a laugh to see so many construction folk not even using basic water supression on stihl saws or RPE.

Dyna-ti we are still seeing about 5000 deaths a year directly stated as asbestos related. approx 20 tradesmen die each week as a result of past exposure. may be worth you having a look at some of the personal case studies of people who have died, in some instances from what you deem as minor exposures.

My dad did his 1960's apprenticeship in an engineering company that made machines that made asbestos products. Was rarely in contact with the stuff but occasionally when demonstrating machines.

He died in agonising pain of lung cancer brought on by asbestosis.

It only takes a single fibre.

It only takes a single fibre.

This

This was also the problem with people making claims if they had been exposed at a number of of places, originally as you couldn't prove which site you got the fatal fibre you couldn't claim. I believe this has been corrected now.

Yonks ago they removed asbestos from the place I was working at, all negative pressure tents surrounding the area and massive vacuums with multiple filters to ensure nothing could leave the work area. It was like the set of a sci-fi movie, huge tents everywhere and people suited up completely.

Just 'hopeing' no one drops anything on it sounds piss poor.

I expect to go home in the same state I came to work – why take a chance with my health for someone else’s bottom line

I hear what youre saying and agree yes, you shouldnt take the chance, nor listen to anyone else when it concerns your own health. Was just quoting the NHS, and looking at it logically.

Wood dust is also really harmful, especially hardwood which is toxic, and some of them will cause nosebleeds and the rest. But it is prolonged exposure that causes issues.
Cigarettes are dangerous, full of carcinogens, but nobody is ever going to say that a single cigarette is ever going to be the cause of lung cancer, rather prolonged exposure.

I honestly cannot believe " A single fiber" will lead to asbestosis, it goes against the studies and findings. And if that being the case, then it is fear and myth.
Nobody is suggesting it isnt a dangerous substance, but let's not get carried away.

The guys that removed the AIB from our garage ceiling described it as 1 fibre above whatever your body could tolerate. Everybody is different.

A good friend died last year from asbestos related lung cancer leaving a wife and teenage kids. Barely 50,fit,slim,mtber and climber. PhD (computing I think), never worked in industry, building or done house renovation beyond basic decorating. No idea where or how it was contracted.

He certainly wasn't working in an asbestos factory or stripping boiler lagging.

And regarding the falling tiles - that happened to a work colleague's son by a hotel pool. Sliced the back off his skull and major brain trauma (thankfully now recovered).

Dyna Ti, it's not a cumulative toxin like lead. All asbestosis derives from a single fibre, it's the damage that fibre does that can then lead to mesothelioma the only variables are time and whether it's malignant. And then you're pretty much ****ed.

A lot of working class folk who would have been likely to develop mesothelioma over time would have died earlier of other stuff, heart disease other cancers etc.

Dyna- sounds like the joinery you were at was also running the risk of a dust explosion too. The risk may be small but if there is a means to mitigate it then they should be followed. My Dad lost the tip of a finger due to a broken machine guard. It had been reported but the company was too tight to repair and he'd used the machine 100s of times so accepted the risk. Until the one day he was too slow.

A friend's Dad died a year after retiring from asbestosis. He'd spent six months working on subamrines at Chatham dockyard in his early 20s and that's the only place he'd knowingly came into contact with it. Plenty of others who worked there for many years got it too whereas many others didn't. It's not a risk I'd like to take.

Kick up as much of a stink as you see necessary OP, mesothelioma is a cruel, vicious disease with a horrible death. Get HSE inspectors in if needs be. You’re doing the right thing.

Thanks to all who contributed to this discussion.

The roof removal work has been completed today with the area below evacuated when work was taking place and taped off. Production recommenced once the air monitoring deemed okay.

I'm going to escalate it internally as I'm still seething about it

Dyna-ti if you work in a construction setting and might be exposed to asbestos you need to get your facts straight. Asbestosis is nothing like hyper sensitivity from wood dust exposure.

It only takes a single fibre.

I'm sorry, but, it doesnt.
The fibre attaches itself onto the cabbage like parts of your lungs, causing damage to that tiny part of the lung, so you cannot convert oxygen in that tiny part of the lung.
Yes, there is a statistical chance that a person can develop cancer because of that one fibre, but it is very very unlikely. It needs a whole bunch of fibres to ruin a large part of a lung before the person even knows it has happened.
I would wager that anyone over the age of 30 has asbestos fibres on their lungs now. It was everywhere in the 80's/90's. It was even still used in construction until 2000. Car brake pads, and the easiest to see in London, the Tube trains brake pads were asbestos containing, so that fine dust everywhere in the Tube contained asbestos. Any building being demolished contained asbestos, and few precauitons were taken.
The roof sheets are still in use all over the country. My garage roof has it, the soffits on my house have it. Artex on many ceilings has it. So long as the relevant precautions are taken, it is not a general hazard.
I'd agree with the OP, that more precautions should be take at his workplace, but, the risk of escaping asbestos fibres from concrete roof sections is very low, the bigger danger is something falling down on his head.

But the op isn't necessarily talking about as asbestos cement roof sheets.

He is on about slate roof / cement debris falling onto other boards. If those are asbestos insulation boards (common fireproofing / ceiling lining) then those can shed lots of very nasty fibres.

Dyna-ti if you work in a construction setting and might be exposed to asbestos you need to get your facts straight. Asbestosis is nothing like hyper sensitivity from wood dust exposure.

My facts are correct, and sensitivity is only one aspect. Toxicity is the other, and im referring to both.
Couple of joiners I know who never smoked ended up with lung conditions, and of those one worked with me and in the same setting of lack of extraction.
Hardwood especially IS toxic. The heartwood of the tree IS toxic. Sensitivity from some, mainly exotic timbers is really another matter, but it shows the toxicity is there.

Dyna- sounds like the joinery you were at was also running the risk of a dust explosion too.

😆 Place was too damp.
But I know what you mean. Though dust explosions dont just happen and theres always a source of ignition and considerably more airborne ultra fine dust floating about, than we had. And no real source of flame to ignite off of(yup I understand about static, though thats usually down to ducting, and of that we had nowt 😆 )