[Closed] Working in Saudi Arabia? Would you?

What's the worst that could happen? You get kidnapped by a bunch of Sunni fundamentalists and appear in your own video?

Few days maybe...
Any more and no, the way of life and the treatment of the non elite combined with the complete oppression of women is a bit off putting.

I wouldn't be too worried, loads of expat types out there working for Aramco.

that said threat level has been raised.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/saudi-arabia

If the area you are travelling in is deemed unstable (Riyadh isn't), then it would be good to have a security detail with you, this is quite common in very high risk areas.

Ask for danger money.

Couple of days would be fine but I'd expect to be well looked after. i.e. picked up from the airport, local fixer, good hotels etc

The more I read, the less I like the idea and there is certainly a lot in the normal way of life that doesn't sit well. I've no idea what the arrangements would be but there is certainly no financial incentive unlike some other industries. I half wonder if I am being ignorant to other cultures and worrying over nothing but I can't say it seems like a great trip at the moment 😕

I didn't feel worried in Riyadh more than some places I travel too such as Jordan (where I'm today), Joburg, Detroit. Very odd place though. I'd never work there long term.

My old boss is out there just now on a 3 year contract(a lady, so living under different conditions than you would !)

Pluses:

Cash, lots of it, both as remuneration and to fund projects at work. Huge budget for the research centre she is running.
Nice living facilities provided, good relocation package that included the Cat ! And gym etc on the "campus" (compound)

Minuses:

Can't drive (although a car and driver are provided)
Can't really go anywhere unaccompanied
Can't drink
Can't go for a run in the hills or ride a bike anywhere etc

Oh yes and the strict hierarchy - Arabs/Arab women/Yanks/Euros/non-whites/all non-Arab women etc

I have to confess I am considering it - pay off the mortgage with once contract - might be worth the restricted lifestyle.

Hels

Is that girls cant go for a run in the hills or anyone (as in getting shot rather than too hot) ?

I am on a list to maybe go there beginning next year for a few months
Me + Hotel + no exercise = fatty McFat

As above, there are no financial gains over and above working anywhere else in the world (barely any more than working from home!). Not sure on the accommodation or travel arrangements but I am not convinced even the fanciest hotel outweighs the other negatives

Just go and exercise the usual discretion; certainly don't go around with security as that will draw attention to you. Move discretely and irregularly and just get used to the idea that you won't be outdoors much and will be pretty sedentary for a few days. A rest and some good food can be good for tired cycling muscles at this time of year!

For moral reasons no

For security reasons it would not put me off.

Girls can't go for a run in the hills as in a) wearing immodest running kit and b) unaccompanied female person.

It's juts a few days, go for it.

🙂

I felt nervous enough having breakfast in a hotel in East Jerusalem. Me, the tour guide, some blokes from our tour then I look up and there are suddenly 60 blokes in the room STARING at me, like they had never seen a woman in shorts. Sent my pal upstairs to my room to get a sarong before I could move anywhere. Very unpleasant, and that was probably low-level stuff.

@DanW I have been going there for business for 30 years including a few visits when security tensions have been very high. A good friend of mine was inside the compound attacked by suicide bombers and was sheltering under the stairs with his kids whilst someone was shooting holes in the wall. I have also heard Frank Gardner speak first hand about being shot in the back whilst at Riyad ATM.

Would I live/work there no. Would I go for a few days, yes.

It's juts a few days, go for it.

Seconded

I was out there for a couple of weeks last year in Al Khobar. It's pretty dull (there's nothing to do other than Shopping Malls, as pretty much every other pastime is idolatory), the most dangerous thing about my time there was the journey to/from the office, the driving is insane!

Would I work there for any length of time/live there? Nope.

@hels - being a little tough here but what you did was very disrespectful in an area with many Arabs. On the beach in Tel Aviv no problem but not in Jerusalem.

Wow! I'm not cut out for that! The gist I'm getting is that it seems mostly ok but no-one would really extend the risk or wish to tolerate the culture more than a few days. Is that fair?

I'm in the "few days, yes. long term, no" camp.

I did consider moving to the ME for work, but quickly crossed off SA. Then the Lehman crash occurred in 2008 and everywhere (incl UAE) shut up shop.

Maybe just me but I find it a bit hypercritical that you are willing to work for a company and be paid from their profits that they make dealing with customers with cultures you don't like but unwilling to deal with them yourself face to face.

I looked into Saudi [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/anyone-worked-in-saudi-arabia ]last year[/url]. Offer came through a JV partner I'd just finished some work with.

Pay was excellent (all living costs/flights home/schooling etc..plus an extra £225k per year tax free in the bank).

I was pretty close to saying yes, but it was for one big job, rather than a fixed term and I thought they were underestimating the length of time needed (they said 3 years and I reckoned about 5). My main concern was around being able to leave if the project went south or was significantly delayed...and for that reason I decided to forget all about it.

For a few days though, why not!? 🙂

@DanW - I know people who have lived and worked there for quite extended periods. Go for a few days and make up your own mind.

I worked there in the 80s (on the Gulf coast). It was OK but tedious. I wouldn't go long term in the current climate but a few days in Riyadh should be OK. If you go, visit the Gold Souk. It's amazing.

jambalaya - don't worry, I didn't make that mistake again, but thought I was pretty safe inside a Hotel ! Walk 200 metres and all westernised again. And I would argue that I was being disrespected frankly, but it is like arguing that if somebody doesn't drown, that doesn't make them a witch.

What nobody has mentioned is the fantastic hospitality you would enjoy from other expats, not necessarily from Saudis, who wouldn't want you to see them getting boozed-up on Johnny Walker black, green and blue label.

(I once sat next to the Export Director of Johnny Walker on a plane and he confirmed my suspicion that Saudi is actually JW's biggest export market.)

Maybe just me but I find it a bit hypercritical that you are willing to work for a company and be paid from their profits that they make dealing with customers with cultures you don't like but unwilling to deal with them yourself face to face.

I am not especially willing to travel and am concerned for the security risk and have no real experience of the culture hence asking for some advice about the realities. I believe this is the first customer (small, low value specialist medical equipment) in the Middle East, most are located in Europe and North America with a few outliers dotted elsewhere. I think it came about when an existing customer moved to SA although I can completely understand the point of view.

I did a 3 week trip there a few years ago (Yanbu) on a petro/chem plant.
Managed to get arrested 🙄 (wrong ID and a long story)which was a bit scary.
The main thing for me ,was that it had a very different feel to the UAE ( which I had worked around a fair bit).
Few days should be fine,but I wouldn't rush back for a visit,and not because of the getting pulled thing,that was just bad luck.

If it's for a few days, you'll be lucky to see any more than the airport, hotel and place of work - same as any Euro trip. Anything else is a bonus, I'd be straight in the flight.

Junkyard - lazarus
For moral reasons no

That's the sort of issue that gets address when you start working for the company, not when you suddenly have to meet the actual customer

Hels, all these Arab men staring at you wearing shorts, were they wearing 'traditional' dresses?

I thought about applying for a job in Saudi recently. I asked myself "how big a shock would there have to be in order for the system to fracture and go to shit with some really terrible things to happen to people like me" and decided the answer was "not that big a shock". The week after that, Saudi started bombing Yemen. I didn't regret not applying. (BTW, I've been out there a bit and my old man lived there for ages, so it's not like I based the decision on ignorant prejudice alone).

@hels - being a little tough here but what you did was very disrespectful in an area with many Arabs. On the beach in Tel Aviv no problem but not in Jerusalem.

Still, it could have been worse in another neighbourhood of Jerusalem, where some even more enthusiastic troglodytes hang out: http://www.smh.com.au/world/when-women-and-girls-are-the-enemy-20111120-1nn4d.html

No, they were wearing Western dress. I just think it was rude, plain and simple - I don't stare at people in wandering the streets of Edinburgh wearing something I don't like.

jambalaya - don't worry, I didn't make that mistake again

I see what you're saying
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They are building quite a security fence

[img] [/img]

I'd go for it, it would be interesting. It's an opportunity to learn new things about a totally different culture first hand and that's good in my book. If you do it once and don't like it at all then don't go again, but I would much rather learn through experience.

do it and pretend you are a spy for a few days.

just ignore the fact they are a bunch of inbred f-tards with stoneage values. personally I'd only want to visit in a long range bomber to drop something off.

Couple of days, yes, long term, no. You wouldn't expect extra money for just a couple of days aside from nice hotel and food etc.

For longer assignments our place gives minimum 2.25x normal salary plus all travel, an apartment, a car, living allowance and regular trips home. Basically you don't need to touch your salaried pay while you're there, everything is covered. If you're there long enough to make it tax free (a whole tax year, IIRC) that seems like a reasonable package but they still have trouble getting folk to do it.

You live in a walled, gated compound with the other ex-pats. There's armed guards on the entrance. Every day you drive to the office and home again. You work six days a week because that's the working week out there and you'll do long days because there's f-all else to do and most of the year it's so insanely hot that you don't want to go outside anyway.

Saudi clients are also utter, utter ****s to work with. I say this from experience. Typically their idea of a discussion is to say "no" repeatedly until you give up. And then they refuse to pay you anyway. They will kick up a fuss about the tiniest thing not being done to the letter and refuse to pay you, then when it suits them, ask you to falsify documents or cover up their mistakes for them. Like when they use your DHL account to send their son's university applications to the USA thinking nobody will notice and go apoplectic when the charges appear on your next invoice to them. They end up offering to send the cash to you personally to take it off the invoice. Yes, really.

And not SA, but a friend worked in the British Consulate in Oman for a few years, they had a steady stream of British businessmen coming to them for help when their Omani clients had ****ed them over. In theory there's a legal system but as an ex-pat you'll get nowhere with it. And they know it. Commission work, work gets done, refuse to pay for it. Commission another sucker, repeat.

So if you think you can hack it, and it's for a defined goal (pay off the mortgage, buy a yacht, whatever, as long as there's a clear exit) then maybe consider it. I wouldn't though.

My Dad lives in Bahrain, has done for 10 years now, he's not a massive fan of Arabic Politics, but he's honest enough to say he'll take their money at the rate they're throwing it at him and Bahrain is, by middle eastern standards, quite forward thinking.

Wouldn't go to Saudi though, he's not usually one for xenophobia but he thinks they're the worst kind of hypocrites and they adore "teaching people a lesson" which in reality is enjoying seeing people suffer and die for not following (or being a accused of not following) rules they routinely ignore themselves.

He's sure one day the oil will run out, or we'll stop caring about it, a single generation later they'll run out of money, and the generation after that will be back to roaming the desert chopping each others heads off for sport, they're a billion dollars away from savages, no more, no less.

My Dad lives in Bahrain, has done for 10 years now, he's not a massive fan of Arabic Politics, but he's honest enough to say he'll take their money at the rate they're throwing it at him and Bahrain is, by middle eastern standards, quite forward thinking.

Aye, Bahrain is another world compared to SA.

My Dad lives in Bahrain, has done for 10 years now, he's not a massive fan of Arabic Politics, but he's honest enough to say he'll take their money at the rate they're throwing it at him and Bahrain is, by middle eastern standards, quite forward thinking.

Wouldn't go to Saudi though, he's not usually one for xenophobia but he thinks they're the worst kind of hypocrites and they adore "teaching people a lesson" which in reality is enjoying seeing people suffer and die for not following (or being a accused of not following) rules they routinely ignore themselves.

My folks lived on Bahrain from 2002-2009 and say pretty much the same thing. I've went out a few times too. The Saudis are positively [i]hated[/i] there.

What nobody has mentioned is the fantastic hospitality you would enjoy from other expats, not necessarily from Saudis, who wouldn't want you to see them getting boozed-up on Johnny Walker black, green and blue label.

This too. The ex-pat living in an environment can be one where there's little to do other than work or eat and drink... Some Saudis (and Bahrainis) also find all sorts of weird and wonderful technicalities to get round the Qu'ran's teachings so they could have a whisky or five.

I've a mate who was in Bahrain for a few years. We went out for a meal of an evening and he pointed out all the Saudis over for a weekend of hookers and booze which, officially, they never partake of, ever...

He also found the rule of law was not as important as family ties...

I went to the supermarket with his wife when he was out at work, and she pointed out to me we couldn't have done that in Saudi.

Bahrain and UAE are relatively liberal but I suspect you'd find Saudi very oppressive... there's a reason why companies have to pay people far in excess of what they'd get in their home countries - they won't go otherwise!

Boss was out recently when the air con broke in Riydah airport during a dust storm, described it as horrific.

Qatar is a positively free thinking, liberal place compared to Saudi.

Yep, the old man says the bridge to Saudi is often littered with crashed Land Cruisers when their drivers have been a bit to liberal with their interpretation of the Qu'ran - won't have any of it with their Women folk or Allah forbid a foreign Muslim though, act unholy and a fat man in a dress with cut your head off, usually in the middle of the road.

As for family-ties, brooess is right, and it goes for most, if not all of the middle-east - even in Bahrain you can forget justice if you're not from the right family - the first year my Dad was there he witnessed a horrible accident - a Mercedes 4x4 being driven at stupid speed (SOP for Bahrain) crashes into a minibus full of migrant workers -Arabs don't do manual labour, although my Dad would argue they don't do work full-stop, so they import their workers from Bangladesh and India with promises of riches, but they're not far off slaves - anyway Driver of the Merc is hurt, but not badly - 2-3 workers are killed, few more badly hurt. Merc driver who absolutely positively wasn't pissed at the time, because he's a good Muslim accuses the driver of the bus of ramming him - case closed. Driver of the Minibus goes to prison, the workers alive but too hurt to work get deported and the rest go back to the building site.

Couple of days, yes, long term, no

Make sure you get a second passport. Your work should be able to provide letters funding etc. Some stamps raise more questions than others at customs so if you travel a lot so it is good to reserve one passport for stamps from middle eastern counries.

He's sure one day the oil will run out, or we'll stop caring about it, a single generation later they'll run out of money, and the generation after that will be back to roaming the desert chopping each others heads off for sport, they're a billion dollars away from savages, no more, no less.

the first year my Dad was there he witnessed a horrible accident - a Mercedes 4x4 being driven at stupid speed (SOP for Bahrain) crashes into a minibus full of migrant workers -Arabs don't do manual labour, although my Dad would argue they don't do work full-stop, so they import their workers from Bangladesh and India with promises of riches, but they're not far off slaves - anyway Driver of the Merc is hurt, but not badly - 2-3 workers are killed, few more badly hurt. Merc driver who absolutely positively wasn't pissed at the time, because he's a good Muslim accuses the driver of the bus of ramming him - case closed. Driver of the Minibus goes to prison, the workers alive but too hurt to work get deported and the rest go back to the building site.

My folks were in a few prangs too - the main reason they had any sort of influence and weren't fobbed off is that my Dad taught at the international school that a lot of the wealthy families sent their kids to.

Bizarrely the construction workers downed tools when it hit 40 degrees C - there seemed to be no comeback from the arabs to that.

My old man worked out there for a few years (ex RAF installing RADAR systems) , and while usually he's the most laid back of folk, he has the same view of SA as P-Jay's dad.

I lived there for 5 years a long time ago. I would not go there again.

Life is too short for such a high risk, oh, and there is no mountain biking.

I personally wouldn't for any salary. Don't kid yourself about culture, there isn't any in Saudi. Everyone is so suppressed, men included. It's a hole. I know a few people who went out to earn that stash of cash. Most couldn't hack it. The boredom. There is nothing to do and nothing you'd want to do. Sure there is an ex pat scene but revolves around eating and drinking. Also living within a compound, apparently, soon gets to you. Just not worth 3 / 5 / 10 years of your life.

I grew up in Saudi and have worked out there a few times. If you are going for a few days then really no issues, just enjoy the differences (which are many and fundamental compared to UK!) but make sure you are in a good hotel as said above.

IMHO, It a great opportunity to go there and learn about another culture first hand. I don't think you'd ever regret going, but I think you might regret not going.

Rather apt that 'the Kingdom' is on itv4 right now.

I don't understand how anyone with a concience could go and benefit from one of the most brutal and oppressive regimes on the planet. But I guess for some people money is all that matters, but don't kid yourself that youre not legitimising a state with massive human rights issues.

Rather apt that 'the Kingdom' is on itv4 right now.

I was just reading this and thinking [i]Bloody hell! The Kingdom is a documentary afterall"[/i]...

🙂

Hmmmm. Not for me personally, a friend of a friend us out there at the moment and is earning a disgusting amount of money and I mean loads. He's recently got married and dragged is wife with him and plans to stick it out for five yo tens years. He'll be set for life but I can't imagine living in a compound and being so restricted. I think I'd struggle for a few days.

If its now yes, in 2months+ unsure. See how Yemen and Iran pan out as Saudi's are being sucked into something which could cause distability at home too.

Those fences mean zip. Even the nutters have big tanks now! Plus stability is internal?

I can't help comparing SA in my mind with Nigeria where I've spend quite a lot of time and where it's possible for expats to earn shedlaods of cash. The big difference is that Nigerians are laid back and alcohol is plentiful and good; they brew some excellent beers and Lagos has the biggest Guinness brewery in the world. Security concerns and the lack of much to do means you can be bored there but at least Nigerians are fun people with their own strong and colourful culture.

I spent a lot of time in Oman and the Saudis are such a bunch of hypocritical arses. "It's Friday,let's drive to Muscat and get smashed!!!" So bloody arrogant as well. Bahrain or Oman I would definitely go and work "short term" (at least there's an MTB and road scene in and you are not looked at like an alien in Oman). It's not a way of life that I could do long term. The malls and having to goto a hotel for a drink (getting hassled by hookers) etc gets old.

Saudi is definitely the toughest Middle Eastern Country I have visited. It's a bit unfair to critise Bahrain which is relatively open in comparison. I've visited all of these on business numerous times and been on a family holiday to Oman.

Saudi (Riyad and Jeddah), Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Oman

I have many friends/colleagues who have or are currently working int he region. Saudi always was a tough posting and most people don't stay more than 2 or 4 years. A visit for a couple of days is tough but fine

t's a bit unfair to critise Bahrain which is relatively open in comparison.

I don't think has ever been in doubt, certainly when compared to Saudi. It's just unfortunate for Bahrain that it's linked to Saudi by the causeway.

As a trans, lesbian, very tall, blonde woman with a healthy disregard for rules and religion in general, I'd say it probably wasn't the place for me... 😉

(although I am quite tempted by taking the motorbike through Iran - sounds achievable)

Rachel

"I can't help comparing SA in my mind with Nigeria where I've spend quite a lot of time and where it's possible for expats to earn shedlaods of cash. The big difference is that Nigerians are laid back and alcohol is plentiful and good; they brew some excellent beers and Lagos has the biggest Guinness brewery in the world. Security concerns and the lack of much to do means you can be bored there but at least Nigerians are fun people with their own strong and colourful culture"

you know i nearly wrote something similar to that yesterday.

id sooner go work in Port harcourt than go to Saudi - and yes ive worked in both as well as other West african and middle eastern countries.

Allthegear going off on a tangent, a mate did the Mongol rally a couple of years ago, he said the best part of the journey was Iran, stunning place, super friendly people.

Backwards religious nutjobs aside; I've always been fascinated by the empty quarter. I'm not sure why. Anyone ever been?

id sooner go work in Port harcourt than go to Saudi - and yes ive worked in both as well as other West african and middle eastern countries.

+1

PHC is a crazy place, in its own way!

As a trans, lesbian, very tall, blonde woman with a healthy disregard for rules and religion in general, I'd say it probably wasn't the place for me...

😆

I've always thought it's odd that all this xenophobia is perpetuated by men in dresses. Is there some massive cultural insecurity? 😉

they still execute people on a Friday afternoon in Riyadh city centre in front of the public.

Regardless if you're a supporter of the death penalty, that's a level of barbarism that we outgrew a long time ago.

I have a Saudi visa page in my passport. It'll be the first and last.

Backwards religious nutjobs aside; I've always been fascinated by the empty quarter. I'm not sure why. Anyone ever been?

Interestingly when I went out in 1980 I met a couple who had been there 20 years earlier and talked about the friendly, welcoming and helpful attitude of the Saudis!

Nearly had to go a few times over the last couple... So I have two Saudi Visa, both expired & unused now.

I'm pretty happy about that, and was content to dodge any trip out there.

I was approached to work out there, but despite being financially great, the impact on the family life wasn't worth it (to me)

In Saudi at the moment (Dammam). come here couple of times a year for the last few years. Its ok. Wouldn't want to live here (or anywhere in the Mid East) as id miss many things about the UK / western life....but absolutely fine for a couple of weeks at a a time.
security situation in major cities (and provincial places I have been to is fine and it appears crime is very low (tough punishments!). Its always sensible to follow FCO advice though wherever you plan on travelling to. People are generally hospitable and friendly.

If its only for a few days Id say give it a go to see what its like, and form your own opinion....rather than the many STW armchair travellers!!!
Its also an interesting place to do business, and contacts you make here could be lucrative (if that's any benefit to you!).