Working contracted hours only: global roles?

I think me and you have very very different jobs (and expectations)... I wouldn't like yours.

* Have your available hours in your calendar
* make it clear that out of hours comms wont be read. reply to any at 9am (or whatever) on the dot
* work at your normal pace, sometimes fast when your brain is in the zone, less when its not
* dont be a dick, if something is genuinely urgent / important then get on with it out of hours
* if workload exceeds your hours frequently, communicate that, come back with expected etas and ask which item should be first / last
* align incentives by negotiating an overtime rate

I think it's about accepting you can't do everything, there will always be more work than hours so it's not a case of time management or focus. It's prioritisation and accepting some things will slide. Also depends a lot on the company ethos, I'm lucky whilst I work longish hours I do get some flexibility in return from my boss, I needed an afternoon off a couple of weeks ago and had no leave left, it wasn't a problem.

And yes if I had a 7am call I wouldn't feel too guilty about finishing at 4pm instead of 6pm or whenever, might not even be the same day. I'll work longer if I'm still motivated, makes it easier to accept I'm not always 100% on my game and not beat myself up about it.

Ultimately it's not the hours you put in, it's the contribution you make.

Edit good advice above but if the culture isn't right you're in deep trouble trying to implement it, working longer / flexible hours sometimes comes with the territory, don't like it change employers, you won't change them by working to rule.

Know your worth. Earning loads is great and everything, but if you're working all the hours and are effectively earning little over minimum wage, what's the point?

Set those boundaries.

Output judged rather than time present or online/ in meetings, this leads to the flexibility mentioned above.

Global roles are a long way above my pay grade, but I always assume (and hope I’m wrong) that those in these positions are paid ££££ to work every hour of the day and night and that’s the lifestyle they chose.

As I said I hope I am wrong and there are companies and cultures where good employees are rewarded with an hours/ responsibilities ratio that works!

As I said I hope I am wrong and there are companies and cultures where good employees are rewarded with an hours/ responsibilities ratio that works!

They tend to be small and mission focused. I've scaled startups and often they are very high trust environments in the beginning, then become less so as they hire more and more people and piss-takers turn up and ruin it for everyone.

Had similar years ago - suppliers from Japan to W Coast USA so they combined to an almost 24h working day. I had some flexibility but made it clear that a 7am or 9pm call was only in exceptional circumstances. There were people dedicated to each supplier so they handled the daily relationship by time shifting (and for example the people in Japan generally worked to a later pattern to give more overlap with the UK team and the teams in the US would do the odd early call to fit a sensible UK time)

Basically a little bit of flexibility from everyone made the whole thing easier to manage, and I generally kept to sensible hours as a result.

But as others have said, if the organisation's culture is around long hours then you've got a much bigger fight.

I can't escape working outside of typical "business hours". I'm a member of 2 teams that have west coast US members, as such 5-6pm is a hot time for meetings and not all meetings can fit into that slot because physics. There is very much a strong environment of trust though, no-one is looking at what hours I work - they only care that the work that needs to be done is getting done.

which will mean no STW during the day I guess.

Blimey you have time for that in your current job?

I think me and you have very very different jobs (and expectations)… I wouldn’t like yours.

This +1000. OP might get paid a fair bit, but it doesn't sound he enjoys it. Whats the point?

It depends on your role but in my organisation people are expected to work outside standard UK business hours  but there is some flexibility for people not to be at their desk 24/7, take time off during the day. Also for folks with a WFH job with some travel, they get days in lieu for weekend travel.

Unfortunately my contract just says "hours required"

I close the print-shop door and go home!

I'm a one-man band though so control my own work.

Very few customers have my mobile number and I never answer work emails out of working hours now.

I used to try and please everyone, but the ones that phone you at 8.30pm on a Friday night aren't the sort of customers I want. Despite my fears the business hasn't collapsed since I adopted this policy.

Not sure how you escape odd hours working for global companies! I'd say it comes with the job.

I happened to listen to an unrelated podcast, and the woman being interviewed touched on this.

It was quite a US centric view, but she took the stand that businesses are there to use employees as much as they possibly can, and it's up to employees to set the boundaries. Her own personal example, as someone very senior who dealt with global teams, was she set hours where she was unavailable throughout the day to do her own personal stuff. Her main example being 5-7PM was family time, but if required to talk with Asia, she would be available after 7PM.

Briefly, when I did this as a consultant I'd just keep an eye on what I was doing and take the time back at some point convenient.

I set my working hours in outlook to stop people booking meetings. If I was up early to talk to someone I'd block out the end of the day or visa versa.

Ultimately I left as I realised it wasn't the job for me and I like a life/work balance.

The company I work for do the same. But in my case I haven't done it in while as currently I don't mange any accounts from either the US or Asian sides.

A colleague is currently stuck in that loop and manages to fit his days between kids to and from school. He insists on no starts or finishes 2 hours before or after his contracted working hours. He blocks out the school run so no one can book a meetings and on the days where he does start early and finish's late, he'll take a two hour lunch break and go to the swimming pool.

So it can be done. You have to be strong!

I am in a similar role but it works fine for me. It helps that my head office is in Copenhagen and we spend more time talking to the US than APAC so the Danes are one hour ahead of me and don't want to work all night. The Nordics also have a reasonable work life balance so there is no pressure to work all hours. We have the right to dissent and I can avoid unreasonable requests in most cases.

Like thepurist 7am and 9pm is in exceptional circumstances. All US calls are between 3pm and 5/6pm. 7.30am calls happen every couple of weeks on average due to the Danish start times.

I have no issue finishing and hour or two early on the odd day to compensate a bit but I do not work to a set number of hours

I mostly WFH though carry out local (within a 30 mile radius) client visits 3 or 4 days a week. I'm contracted for 40 hours. I'm sure my contract says something along the lines of "extra hours as may be deemed necessary at busy times blah blah".

I basically work my hours (I think, nobody counts), and mostly when I want to work them. Official office hours are 9 to 5 but I tend to do more like 8 to 4 and sometimes finish earlier to walk the dog, ride my bike or get outside jobs done in the daylight, then log back on again later. I generally do longer days in the summer than the winter as the site stuff is busier seasonally, but it averages out over the year. Some of my colleagues seem to strive on the stress of being busy, behind with stuff, giving themselves a big pat on the back for bringing in surplus income, and then having to do lots of (unpaid) overtime to service it. All that despite there being no incentive in terms of bonuses, actual pats on the back from anyone else, or promotion. That isn't me, I just aim to do as much as I can as well as I can in the time available, and that's about 40 hours.

The key for me is managing expectations (of clients and colleagues), being organised, using lists, setting targets for the day/week, planning ahead, and trying to maximise productivity when I'm feeling my best. If I'm feeling tired/sluggish/unproductive I just stick to simple boring stuff and save the more taxing tasks for another day (or drink a lot of strong coffee first).

There's a lot to be said for a 'power hour' too; if it's all dragging a bit then walk away for half an hour or an hour, go for walk or do a personal task that lifts you or gives some sense of achievement, then set a timescale for a task or number of tasks that you want to complete, and smash it out with total concentration. And then, if you can, finish early or see any additional completed tasks as a bonus!

As someone who is drafting a response to a ministerial complaint from a guy who has an issue that I went on holiday rather than work on his case.....

More seriously, I'm contracted to do 30 hours a week over 4 days. We have flexible working. I'm always at least 6 hours up on my hours. I may takeva long lunch/ride/workout if it suits me and doesn’t impact work, or to make up for any late finishes, and I often filter emails on a Sunday to save time on the Monday morning after my 3 day weekends.

I think the OP suffers from a nasty combination of a 'long hours' culture and disparate time zones.

Do you like your job? Is it interesting? Would you do it another five years?

Do they pay you a sihtload - and mean a decent lump, not 5 figures, and is there a way out to normal hours?

I sometimes really have to put the hours in, but the other questions work out for me, so it's OK .  I have a friend who has to talk to the US alot, and is too scared to say no to his mega corp managers when they set stupid meeting times.  He suffers for this... and the job goes nowhere..

when my wife had a global team the people in asia were really pleased that she didn’t make them get out of bed for a meeting in the middle of the night.

it turned out that the US managers would schedule meetings in their work hours and expect people to attend regardless. you could try that.

Global corporate worker with meetings in UK business hours and occasional evenings to end no later than 10 PM. Was much more common during COVID when the world was working from home with little else to do. If I work late, I just start late the next day, or vice versa. If I’m doing actual science rather than the day job, that’s play time anyway for me, so I and my employer are flexible.  Work more hours than contracted, but am typing this from the velodrome. I have a meeting from 6-7 and will work later this evening when I get back to TiRed Towers. Rule 1 isn’t it?

Outlook can put focus time in your calendar. Apparently I’m focusing from 8-10 every morning. It’s a decent tool.

US or UK company? big difference.

Tough one, depens on sniority and type of role, but you cant burn the candle at both ends.  Im pretty much fully spent due to travel and working weekends (i knew this year was going to be a hard one), and it's taken it's toll in more ways thean just general tiredness. I think the best you can realistically do, is just not have a US and ASIA call all in the same day and stagger them - i have to do the same (US and Korea, though the later is now tailing off).  I do take the view of "give and take", if i need a few hours break during a day for whatever reason i'll do it.

i work for a US company with teams in India. I work it by doing evenings 2 days a week (so I don't feel bad about refusing calls other evenings) and then dossing off on bike rides/surfs/hanging out with my kids other days of the week so I do approx the right number of hours. Works well for me (no night rides any more), and well for the company

I log on at 06.30, log off at 16.00 - take Fridays off

Currently working with Kazakhstan, India and Canada based teams from UK.

If they cant work in my hours I regularly tell them they can shove it. They havent shoved me yet....

I sometimes do an early or late call and have no qualms about taking the time back later. But then I can be pretty flexible anyway.

I know it can be hard to influence others towards it but I'm a fan of the Basecamp founders' approach to comms - their book or articles like their internal comms guide. I try to use that where I can, flesh out and write up ideas and let people digest before jumping straight into discussing, and trying to get others to do the same rather than starting out with a call. Async as much as possible, which is extra important when you're working across timezones.

If you work over your contracted hours, are you paid for this? (Either as extra leave or overtime).

I think that a culture of Hours as required rather than a specified time is always going to be to your detriment - unless of course you are on a very high wage and it comes with the job. 

I am in a director level role that has teams across Europe, I point blank refuse any meetings outside my normal working hours.

I will also not book meetings for any of my directs outside their normal hours.

My boss who is the MD for Europe is very output focussed & has no time for presenteeism. I have to travel to our Euro offices quite a bit & he will always insist on me travelling in work hours, or if not, to take time back.

I don’t think I would work for a company that was focussed on time behind a desk, rather than what I & my teams achieved.

I think global roles are like that - I work for a large bank and the global banking roles often need early calls / late calls and largely it’s expected you do that.

I’m in the UK part of the business and sometimes I have calls with AsiaPac countries / Europe / Americas that need early or late hours - but it’s almost never both on the same day. My role is relatively flexible in terms of when you work / where / how and they leave us to run our own diaries. It is hectic day to day, but mostly manageable.

I hear from people at American banks that it’s not always the best and much less flexible. But less admin / more sales in their sales roles than we have.

Perhaps try to find a more domestic centric role - or one with a specialisation in less world regions.

I’m not strictly 9-5, I definitely work more than the hours mentioned in my contract most weeks. No overtime paid - the contract says you need to work the hours required. <br /><br />

If it’s busy / I have a tender or something similar then I tend to work a chunk more hours for a while - but then if it’s a bit quieter (say in the run to Christmas) then I’ll chill a little bit then.

I work with teams across Europe, Japan and USA.

I've blocked 0700-0830 and 1630-2100 in my calendar and refuse all invitations in those times unless critical. The meeting purpose should be clear and timing justified in the invitation.

Any overtime is recorded and taken as holiday later on, or paid at 200%. I've also blocked an hour for lunch, but I'm flexible and will skip it if it means that I finish on time. It's a good system.

Despite all that, it doesn't seem to affect my career too much. I've just been promoted!

I used to lead a team in Shanghai, I was in Glasgow and if I needed a decision above my authority, I had to speak to someone in Philadelphia. It was a pain in the arse. 4am conference calls were brutal. Thankfully I'm fully UK focussed nowadays.

I only work my contracted hours these days, unless it's very close to a deadline that's at risk of slipping (and I don't think it's caused by PM incompetence) or something's broken and I need to assist with a fix (rare as I'm in a project role rather than support). Fortunately my company (although a large multi-national) doesn't have a long-hours culture and our performance reviews don't really reward it so little point even if you enjoy your work (I don't :p ).

A role that spans 12-16 hours of time zones needs more than 1 person in it, also curious how the OP gets any work done if they're in Zoom calls all day, or is that all the role entails?

It is possible to achieve a lot by rejecting calls, demanding calls be emails, and being more rigorous avout using Outlook as gatekeeper for your time. People don't like to say no and end up being imposed upon. You can make things work within a team if you have a good manager

But you also have to recognise that you'll never change the culture of a whole company and ultimately they may shrug and let you knpw if you don't like it you should piss off.

align incentives by negotiating an overtime rate

Hah!

The meeting purpose should be clear and timing justified in the invitation.

I've heard a few people say "no agenda, no attend-a".

My work have just moved us to four day week. 32 hrs over four days, no loss of pay. 

Friday is now bike day. Its ace.

I have a global role, direct reports in San Francisco, Shanghai and a couple of other development sites in China.

One of the "rules" is that we arrange meetings that match local core working hours wherever possible, so San Fran used to get meetings from 7-9, and i would be 16-18 give or take. Lots of emails. Shanghai, i would get onto as soon as i got to the office, 8 am. (mid afternoon for them). This has worked (for me) for 8 years so far, in two roles.

Actually quite freaked them out, as those working for both the US and Chinese organisations were used to being told when to work, and how long to do it for, 50-60 hour weeks. Swedish management turn up and start sending them home at 5, and making sure that they're not working much over their 40 hours.

I don't even have official working hours, i am employed to complete tasks, approximately 160 hours worth of tasks a month.

Remember the WTD still applies.  48 hour week, 11 hours between shifts, etc etc the 48 hours can be averaged out.  Its a useful thing to remind employers they are breaking the law

Thanks all. Some interesting food for thought. 

It seems it is definitely a cultural issue in the organisation, and that the organisation has no intention of solving it. It's response is to make Headspace available and wellness information sessions, but essentially it means if you melt after a 60 hour week it's your own fault... 

Lolz at TJ - compulsory to sign a WTD waiver as part of the contract acceptance. 

I do get paid okay, the work is interesting enough, but I'm at a point where I want to claim more of my life for me...

Some parts of the WTD the waiver does not cover.  check the regs for fit to your situation.

 Its a useful thing to remind employers they are breaking the law

hes not working for the local authority.

mega corp doesn't care - it'll bin you without a second thought (and it wont be related to you making reference to the law - youll simply be performance managed out

I just block out lunch and morning/evening when i was in a global role.

i did have fun once when on rotation when out of rotation  i was called back middle of my 5 off  .... replied with a photo of the ferry sailing away from my campervan window.

Like many on here - uk focused now with very few calls to the USA usually on my terms.

When I used to look after stuff in the Middle East I had people there phone me on Xmas day as it was a normal working day for them 😫

That works both ways: plenty of MENA colleagues getting meeting invites on Fridays, across iftaar time etc.

Global role here. Team based from US to Singapore. There is about a 2 hrs window in the middle of the day that is just about acceptable for every one but I make sure I'm as flexible as the colleagues in those countries are for me. Most of the team are EU based.

Contracted for 37hrs but normally work 42.5 (so 8-5 with a 30min lunch). I don't get overtime or anything back so the extra is just discretionary effort on my part. (humble brag) I'm relatively senior so I try to make sure I close down at 5 to demonstrate to others this is what they should be doing and they don't need to be answering emails and working all evening. I deliberately avoid sending mails in the evening even if I happen to be looking at the phone as again it creates the wrong impression. Being an international team mean means there will always be some topic you could be working on 24hrs a day.

My advice - get a dog. Seriously, having a dog who starts to pester me at 4:55 for walk reminds me I need to log off and go for a walk. Dog walk before and after work is now my 'commute'. Time for me to switch on (or off) at the start and end of the day.

I know it takes all sorts to make the world go round but this all sounds horrendous!

I work 6 on 4 off, get 36 days leave (which is 6 fortnights I don't have to work) + bank hols and when I skip out the door at the end of my shift that's it.

Not a global role here, but a startup that has grown to be a successful medium sized business. I joined as it was coming out of the pure statup phase so the workload was high, the hours long and the team under sized.

Yes, I would work more than my hours most days, as would the rest of the team. The flipside to this was I would never have to book time to start late or finish early - and can take as much time during the day as I need (for a ride...)

Now the company has grown those of us who were in it from earlier on still get many of the benefits of flexible time, even though the company as a whole has shied away from that. THose same people also still put in long days when it's needed (usually to make something work that is broken, or stop something working that is doing it wrong).

Company culture in many areas is still very much 'paid to do a job, not for the hours' but the difference to the US / India corporations I have worked for in the past is long hours are not celebrated. If people are havng to put in a few long weeks to get a delivery over the line, this is appriciated but steps are taken to avoid repeating it.

Any company where the culture to celebrate employees working for free is one I will not work at. They are universally awful

I've worked in global roles for 20 years, ranging from startups to global mega-corps. I always expect to be flexible, and expect flexibility in return. I'm currently working for a small growth stage company with headquarters in Texas, R&D in Israel, workforce spread across EMEA and AMER, and customers all over the world.

In that kind of environment if you can't adjust your days then you are toast. My day often looks like this:

6-8am Calls with customers in APAC (Australia/New Zealand/Singapore/Japan/India)
8-9am Chase the kids out the door, walk the dogs
9-10 Email, internal calls with EMEA team
10-11:30 Gym
11:30-3pm Do some work, eat a sandwich, talk to East Coast US
3-4 Kids home from school, chat with them, prep dinner
4-7 Do some work, talk with Central/West Coast US. (hopefully wife comes home at a decent time and gets dinner on)

Some days/weeks are busier than others. If I feel like I'm not doing enough I'll work longer, if I feel like I'm doing too much I'll take some time back. I might do some work over a weekend if I need to, likewise I'm taking Friday afternoon off to take the kids to a ski lesson. We are supposed to track time off (UK regulation) but I don't bother, I'm the only employee in the UK.

Most importantly - I've never stayed in a job I didn't enjoy or feel empowered to manage my own time.

Are these jobs six figures?
Do they advance society/environment?

If they are £30k a year jobs for supplying/shipping tat around the world then forget it.

I worked on site for 5years, ~3months at a time with a week's break, sometimes in nice locations more often in 3rd world shit holes.
I then bought a house with the money. I now work for beer money and have clocked off at 5pm sharp every day since.

So in summary I would tolerate some of these working conditions mentioned if financially it was worthwhile. I would have an end goal and be disciplined enough to not blow the salary on trinkets/shiny cars.

Personally speaking, I'd consider myself well paid. Whether or not what I do advances society or the environment is very subjective, since you asked the question I expect you'd think not.

Working on site for 3 months at a time and earning enough in 5 years to buy a house with the money I'm guessing you worked overseas and were compensated for those long hours and shitty conditions with lots of tax free money? Everything comes at a price and we each make the right decision for us.

My job fits pretty well with the life we choose to lead. If I had to tolerate conditions I'd leave and find something more enjoyable, regardless of the money. Likewise, if happiness for my family meant taking a lower paid job then I'd do it in a heartbeat and we'd adjust our lifestyle.

I did much the same as RNP. Which is why I'm 'ruined' for office jobs now. Email me with some bullshit questions at 1559? Nobody's going to die as I shut my computer down and give it not a second's thought until sometime around midmorning the next day.

RNP must be doing overtime I'm usually home at 3:30.

@tonyd

Yes it was overseas engineering blue collar work for a UK company so UK salary and tax. The pay was generous/good.
I was burnt out after five years and did miss a lot of social/family events. but it served a purpose and set us up financially.

The talk of being beholden to demands from 3 time zones sounds abhorrent to me and something that should be well remunerated but also something that would only have a short life span before taking the money and bailing out.

The amount of flexibility and consideration I give my employer is in direct proportion to the amount of flexibility and consideration they give me.

The current lot are pretty good, I try to be pretty good back.

I think a good position to be in is that your employer should mostly be thinking that they owe you one, ie they know that you've gone above and beyond for them, but don't take it for granted.

The talk of being beholden to demands from 3 time zones sounds abhorrent to me and something to me that should be well rewarded for but also something that would only have a short life span before taking the money and bailing out.

That's the thing, I'm not beholden to any of those 3 time zones. I do it because I enjoy talking with people from all over the world, learning different perspectives in both personal and work lives, and occasionally I get to travel and spend time with them in person which is pretty cool. I don't have to do any of the things I do at work, I choose to do them because I find it rewarding and meaningful - I am helping people to improve and grow their businesses, which in turn should improve their lives and those of their employees.

Coincidentally it also means that by breaking up my day I can remove some of the pressure that would otherwise come from both parents working "normal" jobs and having to get everything done either before or after 9-5. I realise I'm in a lucky situation, sometimes it takes a thread like this to remind me of that 🙂

I worked on site for 5years, ~3months at a time with a week’s break, sometimes in nice locations more often in 3rd world shit holes.<br style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; background-color: #eeeeee;" />I then bought a house with the money

Did this for 10 years. probably 10 years later than RNP so needed longer to buy the house - Gained alot of valuable experiance.

now i manage a team doing the same stuff in nicer places .... moneys not nearly as good when your not dealing with maleria/typhoid and corrupt officials.

Lot less stressful though and I've not had a gun pointed at me for while.

These days i have a lunch blocked out in my calendar and i drop the kids at nursery at 8. and eat tea with the family most nights/rarely travel. I do start ops dial ins  at 7am and i get the odd 2am call when shits going south - the flip side is no one bothers me if my lunch run goes over time.

I do know folk that manage a team here and Singapore - I've never worked out how they can do both effectively. they are directly opposing demands and so must be chasing tail constantly.

One of my friends is pretty senior in a global IT mega-corp and was account manager for some blue chip client who had 8am sync up meetings every working day.

Unfortunately for him, he was 3 time zones away so that translated to 5am his time...and he was then expected to be available for the remainder of his working day to manage his local team in his local time zone.

Though I didn't feel too sorry for him as he's so well paid...he's still working for the same company but manages a team out in India so he's spent the last couple of months back and forth to India to attend a regular day long meeting. I thought that kind of business travel would have had the nail put in it's coffin by Covid but apparently not...

"I thought that kind of business travel would have had the nail put in it’s coffin by Covid but apparently not…"

My experience is that when things are going well Teams / Zoom is fine... when things aren't going well then you need to be seeing the whites in their eyes as it were.  In person still has it's place for all the additional non-verbal / visual cues.

The common way I see this work in terms of work life balance is per a poster above, you drop the intensity and give yourself flexibility to have long lunches at the gym, do school runs etc, but with the payback that your work days are 11-12 hours from start to finish 4 days a week then a normal one on Friday due to there being fewer meetings.

he’s spent the last couple of months back and forth to India to attend a regular day long meeting

So no ESG strategy for that business then. I don’t know how this kind of thing can be justified in this day and age.

In the above post, if you’re off to the gym, going for a long lunch and doing the school runs your work day isn’t 12 hours.

I deliberately avoid sending mails in the evening even if I happen to be looking at the phone as again it creates the wrong impression.

The schedule email send function in recent Outlooks is great for not bothering people in the middle of the night OR appearing busy in the middle of the day when you're really at a cafe/rave/trail centre.